Charger versus Dual Wielder for Swashbuckler?

[steppedonad4]

I know that an extra attack is nice for a rogue given that it's an extra chance to hit if you miss the MH, as well as an extra chance to crit, but I hit upon the idea of using the character's Action to Dash 30-ft., sneak attack with a +5 to damage, and then run away 30-ft. Rinse, repeat every turn.

Basically I'm wondering how, statistically, bad I'm screwing myself if I go this route over Dual Wielder and two attacks per turn?

[hymer]

I know that an extra attack is nice for a rogue given that it's an extra chance to hit if you miss the MH, as well as an extra chance to crit, but I hit upon the idea of using the character's Action to Dash 30-ft., sneak attack with a +5 to damage, and then run away 30-ft. Rinse, repeat every turn.

Basically I'm wondering how, statistically, bad I'm screwing myself if I go this route over Dual Wielder and two attacks per turn?

Pretty badly. As a rogue2, you can already convert your bonus action to Dash. So you can Move+Dash+Attack. Which is what you're proposing to do with the Charger feat. Sounds like you're taking the feat to get +5 to damage. Attacking twice in a round should average to more than that, since this gives you two chances to land a sneak attack in addition to the 3.5 average damage you'll likely deal.
Then there's the whole 'running up and attacking then moving away', which is the key to the goblin conga line. You may want to avoid going there. It also avoids the Opportunity Attack.
I don't see that a rogue gets a whole lot out of the Dual Wielder feat. Especially if you can get +2 dex instead. Dual Wielder locks you in on melee. Upping your dex gets the same AC bonus, you want to use finesse weapons anyway, and dex helps your to-hit, skills and ranged attacks, too.

[steppedonad4]

Pretty badly. As a rogue2, you can already convert your bonus action to Dash. So you can Move+Dash+Attack. Which is what you're proposing to do with the Charger feat. Sounds like you're taking the feat to get +5 to damage. Attacking twice in a round should average to more than that, since this gives you two chances to land a sneak attack in addition to the 3.5 average damage you'll likely deal.
Then there's the whole 'running up and attacking then moving away', which is the key to the goblin conga line. You may want to avoid going there. It also avoids the Opportunity Attack.
I don't see that a rogue gets a whole lot out of the Dual Wielder feat. Especially if you can get +2 dex instead. Dual Wielder locks you in on melee. Upping your dex gets the same AC bonus, you want to use finesse weapons anyway, and dex helps your to-hit, skills and ranged attacks, too.

Err... I'm guessing you haven't read the Swashbuckler rogue sub-class from SCAG? Plus the extra attack takes a bonus action so there's no Dash from Cunning Action.

[hymer]

Err... I'm guessing you haven't read the Swashbuckler rogue sub-class from SCAG? Plus the extra attack takes a bonus action so there's no Dash from Cunning Action.

I haven't received my SCAG yet, so no.

When using Charger, you use your action to Dash, and then get one melee attack or shove. When being a Rogue2, you can do it the other way around (Dash as bonus action, attack as Action), only it doesn't cost you a feat.

[steppedonad4]

I haven't received my SCAG yet, so no.

When using Charger, you use your action to Dash, and then get one melee attack or shove. When being a Rogue2, you can do it the other way around (Dash as bonus action, attack as Action), only it doesn't cost you a feat.

The Swashbuckler's 'thing' is attacking and running off. Any target they attack cannot make opportunity attacks against them until the end of the rogue's turn. The rogue also gets Sneak Attack against a target as long as their is no other creature within 5 ft. of the rogue.

A Swashbuckler with Dual Wielder could attack twice with a rapier in each hand as long as they're adjacent to their target already, using their bonus action for the second attack and getting Sneak Attack on one of the attacks if he hits, and run away 30-ft. without provoking.

A Swashbuckler with Charger could Dash 30-ft. in, bonus action attack with +5 damage, wield a shield for +1 more AC than the Dual Wielder, sneak attack if it hits, then use their Move Action to run 30-ft. out without provoking.

[hymer]

You know what, I'm gonna leave you to it. Have fun!

[Finieous]

A Swashbuckler with Charger could Dash 30-ft. in, bonus action attack with +5 damage, wield a shield for +1 more AC than the Dual Wielder, sneak attack if it hits, then use their Move Action to run 30-ft. out without provoking.

Does swashbuckler gain shield proficiency?

Maybe take a look at it with a Magic Initiate build and booming blade. The disadvantage of the cantrip (for a rogue) is that you can't use it with a bonus action attack. Since your build isn't going that route anyway, the only downside is the feat cost. I'd go variant human with Charger at 1st level, Dex increase at 4th and 8th, Magic Initiate at 10th. That will get you +1d8 on the hit and +2d8 if the target moves; +2d8 on the hit, +3d8 on the move at 11th level; +3d8 on the hit, +4d8 on the move at 17th level (from memory - AFB). Obviously not as good when your party is ganging up on a tough monster -- it will just stay put and eat your friends. But situational constraints aside, that's probably the best way to optimize your damage from the one attack per round jousting build.

ETA: Oh hell, it specifically doesn't work with Charger, which requires a bonus action attack. As hymer suggests, it works better just using Cunning Action to move with the bonus action. So save yourself a feat.

[Tanarii]

You're putting all your sneak attack eggs in one basket, and losing 4.5 damage, in return for +5 damage. Rogues can't use a shield. So that doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

[steppedonad4]

You're putting all your sneak attack eggs in one basket, and losing 4.5 damage, in return for +5 damage. Rogues can't use a shield. So that doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

But also gaining 30-ft. of movement per turn.


Rogues can't use a shield.

I know, it was an out of context inclusion based on other multi-classing considerations.

[Submortimer]

Take a level of fighter, take dueling, and use a shield. Now you're getting +7 to your damage instead of just +5. You're doing 2 points of damage less than the TWF style, dual wielding rogue/fighter, but your AC is 1 higher and your speed is doubled for most rounds.

That all being said, ditch all of that in favor of magic initiate. Well, still take the level in fighter for duelist and shield prof., but take booming blade or greenflame blade (or both!), and snag Hex or bless or mage armor instead.

Start of fight, bonus action cast Hex on your target, then shoot them with a hand crossbow as you close the distance. Second round, drop crossbow, draw sword, dash, cast booming blade, hit for a lot of damage, run away. Rinse and repeat until all foes are chunky Salsa.

For more style, be a Charisma-based rogue, and pull booming blade and Hex from the warlock and Vicious Mockery from the bard. Sticks and stones will break his bones, but your jabs about his mother will give him an anyuerism.

[steppedonad4]

For more style, be a Charisma-based rogue, and pull booming blade and Hex from the warlock and Vicious Mockery from the bard.

I like it but you can only draw from one spell list for Magic Initiate. However, instead of a crossbow attack and Vicious Mockery, Eldritch Blast would also work with casting Hex and then the rest would work nicely as well.

[Submortimer]

I like it but you can only draw from one spell list for Magic Initiate. However, instead of a crossbow attack and Vicious Mockery, Eldritch Blast would also work with casting Hex and then the rest would work nicely as well.

Ahh poop. You're right. The crossbow is important for getting sneak attack damage on the first round, but eldritch blast is never a bad move. Alternately, take Lighting Lure: pick out a target, Hex them, and make them come to you.

The real point is that magic initiate is now a better feat in every way than charger.

[steppedonad4]

How about this?

Human variant, STR 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16 at 7th-level.

1st-level: Magic Initiate (Sorcerer: Booming Blade, Mage Armour, Minor Illusion).
7th-level: Observant.

1st-3rd level: Ranger: hunter.
4th-7th level: Rogue: swashbuckler.

Fighting Style: Dueling.
Hunter’s Prey: Colossus Slayer.
Expertise: Perception, Stealth.

Ranger Spells: Hunter’s Mark, Jump, Longstrider.

That's 3d6+3d8+5 damage per turn with Hunter's Mark up and using Booming Blade, plus 2d8 if the target moves. Gives 18 AC, +6 to Initiative, 23 Passive Perception. She can always run and hide if she gets into trouble with Cunning Action and with Longstrider active, she can move pretty damn quick, almost always keeping her primary target unable to reach her and attack her in any single turn.

At 9th character level can add Expertise to Persuasion to later work with Panache and really ruin a single-target's day.

I thought about Cure Wounds instead of Jump but... the more I thought about it, the more wuxia this build became and, well... jump.