Pathfinder Gish for a New Player

[sambouchah]

I've played 3.5 for about almost 7 years, and have heard PF is about the same. I'm still new to it though and am unsure what's most optimal for various builds and things. My GM is pretty lenient, so I have wiggle room on some stuff.

I'd like to play a Sorcadin if it's doable in PF, I know Abj.Champ is usually required and it isn't in the PFSRD. But basically any Gish works for me. Anyone have any suggestions?

I originally was gonna play a Summoner with a Tank-Dolon, but I changed my mind for now.

[legomaster00156]

The gishes don't get much better designed in Pathfinder than the Magus. However, if you're going for the "divine warrior" feel, you might try the Warpriest. The Champion of the Faith even has a Smite ability.

[charcoalninja]

Synthecist summoner / Paladin. Play Samsaran for some sorcerer spells and you're good to go.

[Vhaidara]

PF gishes tend to be 3/4 BAB, 6th level casting classes, as opposed to aiming for 16 BAB and 9ths. Sorcadin can still work, just going Sorc/Pal/EK.

I personally recommend Magus (PF Duskblade), Alchemist (PF pre-combat buff gissh), or Warpriest (PF in combat buff gish).

[Kurald Galain]

Here, enjoy this Magus handbook! (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus)

[Novawurmson]

I think it's always helpful to take a step back and say "What do you really want out of this build?"

-Do you want 9th level casting?
-Do you want arcane casting?
-Do you want full BAB?
-Do you want divine/paladin-ish fluff?
-Do you want to cast spells concurrently with attacking, a la a duskblade?
-Do you just want buffs running during combat?

As mentioned multiple times, the magus and warpriest are excellent arcane/divine gishes, respectively. I'm GMing for a warpriest right now who's enjoying it so much he says he'll never play another class again (and he's been playing 3.5/PF for like...10 years now?).

I'd like to throw something strange at you: Bloodrager VMC (variant multiclass) Paladin. Here's an example build (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=510067) I've been tweaking. Very effective melee combatant with some Paladin goodies and arcane utility/self buffing.

[charcoalninja]

Also there's a warpriest archetype that basically becomes a Paladin with Bard Casting. Worth checking out since Warpriest is great for getting buffs out in a reasonable time.

[MasterFu]

A couple of other PF gish options would include bloodrager (a self-buffing sorc/barb hybrid) and dragon disciple (a 3/4 BAB prestige class that grants stat boosts and some dragon-themed abilities).

How casty do you want to be vs how fighty? And are you focusing on utility or damage?

[Psyren]

The quintessential "simple gish" is a druid; it's right there in core.

[Peat]

I've tried to find a good way of doing D&D 3.5 gishes in PF and there's a few ways, but if you've got a new player starting at Level 1 he's probably going to get more joy out of going Gish in a can.

If he really does want to do it the complicated way/have BAB 16+ and 9th level spells/be a special snowflake, then his best route is to go Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Evangelist 5/Eldritch Knight 10 - that gets you a BAB of 17 and CL 17 (I think). Other useful Prestige classes are the Hellknight, the Spherewalker and (particularly if they don't mind dropping CLs) the Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer. Take a first level in Skald if you want Dragon Disciple as a Wizard.

But, yeah, there's a ton of Gish in a can classes that work well and pay off quicker.

[tadkins]

I've tried to find a good way of doing D&D 3.5 gishes in PF and there's a few ways, but if you've got a new player starting at Level 1 he's probably going to get more joy out of going Gish in a can.

If he really does want to do it the complicated way/have BAB 16+ and 9th level spells/be a special snowflake, then his best route is to go Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Evangelist 5/Eldritch Knight 10 - that gets you a BAB of 17 and CL 17 (I think). Other useful Prestige classes are the Hellknight, the Spherewalker and (particularly if they don't mind dropping CLs) the Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer. Take a first level in Skald if you want Dragon Disciple as a Wizard.

But, yeah, there's a ton of Gish in a can classes that work well and pay off quicker.

The issue I have with gishes-in-a-can like Magus is the lack of utility. They just don't get as many spells, especially the fun higher level ones. The Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight path seems like it'd be better in the long run, especially if you can take Lore Warden for Fighter and Diviner for Wizard.

Edit: Plus after a little bit more reading the Magus seems to emphasize wielding 1h weapons. What if someone wants to be a greatsword-wielding gish? xD

[Florian]

@tadkins:

Gish in a can classes tend to deliver way more then then a simple fighting/casting combination, mostly some superior economy of actions.
Both, Magus and Warpriest rank as some of the highest DPR classes in PF.

[Vhaidara]

Edit: Plus after a little bit more reading the Magus seems to emphasize wielding 1h weapons. What if someone wants to be a greatsword-wielding gish? xD

You can still Spellstrike with a two hander, actually. Remove a hand, cast, replace hand. Taking a hand on and off a weapon is explicitly a free action, and the recommended limit is one on and one off per turn.

[DMVerdandi]

The quintessential "simple gish" is a druid; it's right there in core.
Also Cleric does a FINE job at being a gish.


The issue I have with gishes-in-a-can like Magus is the lack of utility. They just don't get as many spells, especially the fun higher level ones. The Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight path seems like it'd be better in the long run, especially if you can take Lore Warden for Fighter and Diviner for Wizard.

Edit: Plus after a little bit more reading the Magus seems to emphasize wielding 1h weapons. What if someone wants to be a greatsword-wielding gish? xD

I agree on the versatility aspect. Usually Gish in a can classes end up being merely DPR classes, and doing damage is interesting and all, but we know that it's not REAL spell casting, so why bother? Arcane strike exists as a feat, so IMO that's good enough. What I REALLY need to be effective is good abjuration spells, divination, buffs, and the occasional summon to run interference.

Also, Even more potent IMO is the Fighter/Arcanist/Eldritch Knight, due simply to better casting mechanic.

[Eox]

The main difference in Pathfinder that you'll want to be mindful of is that multi classing sucks as a general rule. More often than not you're better of sticking with a single class, and the huge variety of well-designed 6 level casters changes the game a fair bit. Full casters and pure martials are still more or less in the same boat as 3.5, however.

[tadkins]

@tadkins:

Gish in a can classes tend to deliver way more then then a simple fighting/casting combination, mostly some superior economy of actions.
Both, Magus and Warpriest rank as some of the highest DPR classes in PF.

That is true. I dunno, tough choice then. It seems like it would be between choosing a magic swordfighter or a spellcaster that can hold a sword.


You can still Spellstrike with a two hander, actually. Remove a hand, cast, replace hand. Taking a hand on and off a weapon is explicitly a free action, and the recommended limit is one on and one off per turn.

Oh awesome, didn't know that. I actually just went off the class page as well as Kurald's guide and saw no 2h support, so I assumed it wasn't something you can do as a Magus.




I agree on the versatility aspect. Usually Gish in a can classes end up being merely DPR classes, and doing damage is interesting and all, but we know that it's not REAL spell casting, so why bother? Arcane strike exists as a feat, so IMO that's good enough. What I REALLY need to be effective is good abjuration spells, divination, buffs, and the occasional summon to run interference.

Also, Even more potent IMO is the Fighter/Arcanist/Eldritch Knight, due simply to better casting mechanic.

Exactly. When it came down to writing out the character it was just very hard to choose. Magus flows better in its mechanics but Wizard/EK has the spells that would just be really hard to let go of.

Arcanist would work pretty well too, and I recently asked about turning a Sorcerer into one as well (particularly because I liked the Starsoul bloodline flavor). I want to be a magic space swordsman. xD


The main difference in Pathfinder that you'll want to be mindful of is that multi classing sucks as a general rule. More often than not you're better of sticking with a single class, and the huge variety of well-designed 6 level casters changes the game a fair bit. Full casters and pure martials are still more or less in the same boat as 3.5, however.

Didn't seem like I'd be losing a lot PrCing out of Wizard for that build. Diviner gets everything by 8th level.

[Sacrieur]

That is true. I dunno, tough choice then. It seems like it would be between choosing a magic swordfighter or a spellcaster that can hold a sword.

Basically. The Magus is my favorite class because it does exactly what it promises to do. You don't have to play around to get it to work or do some fancy build tricks. It works right out of the box and does what you would expect. It's perfect for a new player who wants to play a gish.

It's also been my experience that any Magus can take a wizard in a fight and just savagely pound them into the ground. The latest example would be one of my players who turned a crossbow into a rocket launcher and wiped the floor with the wizard who smartly tried to keep his distance.

You know all those spells which are "eh" for a wizard that are combat options. You know, like Bladed Dash? The Magus Spell List is full of them and in the hand of a Magus, are completely different than your spell caster who can also cast spells. It's pretty terrifying actually.

[tadkins]

It's also been my experience that any Magus can take a wizard in a fight and just savagely pound them into the ground.

Magus can't follow the wizard into the plane he shifts to though. :(

[Sacrieur]

Magus can't follow the wizard into the plane he shifts to though. :(

So the Wizards only option is to flee and use extremely careful planning to win.

Keep in mind a Magus can get a Reflection arcana that lets him reflect back a spell of any level, so long as he pays the cost for it. And since he's sure to have spellcraft maxed, he's probably going to know exactly what spell you cast, unless you've prepared it with metamagic.

So now you can start to see why the Magus is incredibly lethal against other casters.

[Peat]

Also, now that I've read the OP more closely -

If you want CL 18 on a Sorcadin and more than one level of Paladin, then the best BAB you can get is... +14. 2 levels of Paladin, 6 levels of Sorcerer, 8 levels of Hellknight Enforcer, then 4 levels of Dissident of Dawn (which you qualify for by taking Deific Obedience). You also have pre-requisites of 4 feats and 32 skill points for those prestige classes, with the added joy of taking Arcane Armour Training on a Dex-based Gish who might have ignored it otherwise. This is probably not the smartest thing ever.

Someone correct me if my assumption that you can't be lawful and a follower of Desna isn't correct; you can transfer Dissident out for Spherewalker if that is allowed.

If you take only one level of Paladin and 9 levels of EK along with 4 of HK/DoD, then you get CL 18 and a BAB of 16, although gods knows why you're doing Paladin for just one level imho. I'd say go Unbreakable Fighter and use those 4 levels to be a Desnan Spherewalker, with their +4 luck bonus after the dice is rolling at CHA mod times a day.

The flavourful option might be Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Evangelist of Iomedae 8/EK 6. Yes, you're CL 16 and BAB of 16 (better than a Gish in a can I guess mind), but you get the 15th level Bloodline power with the Robe of Eldritch Heritage, get most of the Iomedae deific boons early, and get to be the God of Paladin's most super Paladin-y servant evar! You're a distance from the most optimal Gish out there but I imagine you're still at least a Tier 3, maybe a Tier 2 if you push it, so depending on the rest of your group you might still be Captain Fancy-Pants.

p.s. Not one word of that was written with concern for what happens between levels 1 and 20 and when and where the character is fun.

p.p.s. If your GM is easy going and allows the Inner Sea Magic guild rules and Esoteric Training from thereon in with its ridiculous +3 caster levels including spells known, this all gets a lot easier and more fun. Unless they fixed it.

[Sayt]

You can still Spellstrike with a two hander, actually. Remove a hand, cast, replace hand. Taking a hand on and off a weapon is explicitly a free action, and the recommended limit is one on and one off per turn.

You can Spellstrike with a Two-hander, but Spell Combat explicitly requires "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand."

[Kurald Galain]

Oh awesome, didn't know that. I actually just went off the class page as well as Kurald's guide and saw no 2h support, so I assumed it wasn't something you can do as a Magus.

The Magus can basically wield whatever weapon he darn well pleases. However its trick of making a full attack and cast a spell in the same turn requires a 1H weapon. Did I mention that the spell in question can be Dimension Door? :smallbiggrin:

The spell access depends on what level you'll be playing at. The Magus has a pretty broad and versatile spell list, including utility effects like illusions, dispelling, teleport, and the entire line of polymorph spells; and can do any of that in addition to full attacking in the same round. But it doesn't get 9th level casting.

[Florian]

@Peat:

Now why would you want to do that? The way most class features scale in PF, the more you dip, mix and match, the more you lose out on that.

For example, the 3,5 Paladin was a very lackluster class, but the 2 level dip for Cha to saves made it a good choice for Sorcerers, therefore the origin of the Sorcerdin. Now, the Sorcerdin was a very lackluster class itself, so no loss in switching to Eldritch Knight either.

Sure, you can still aim at reaching nearly full bab and spellcasting progression, but you lose so much for that little bit of edge, that's far from being worth it.

Now, taking a look at Bard vs. Paladin(2)/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight, funny things happen along the way you get there.

Level 10:
Bard has lvl 4 spells
Sorcerer has lvl 5 spells
Sorcerdin has lvl 3 spells

Level 16:
Bard has lvl 6 spells
Sorcerer has lvl 8 spells
Sorcerdin has lvl 6 spells

So, gratulations, you managed to be worse then the Bard class mostnof the time.
The same hold true for Wizard and Magus.

[Peat]

Because you really badly want the high level pay-out/will be starting there? Because you really like the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list but want to hit things as well? Because you're a special snowflake and have to be different, dagnabbit?

I mean, I'm not disputing any of what you said Florian. I've already said the Gish in a can classes pay off quicker. But the OP said they wanted Gishes, maybe a Sorcadin, so I figured I'd dump the options down in front of them. In case it wasn't clear from my post (looks clear to me reading back), I definitely don't recommend Sorcadin unless that's really one's heart's desire above all other things. You can create something decent with it but you can definitely create something better.

That said (ok, now I am disputing a little I guess :P), a Wizard gish with one level of fighter gets his first 2nd level spell at 4th - same as the Magus. Assuming he goes Evangelist, he gets his first 4th level spell at 9th level - 1 ahead of the Magus now - and even if he goes Eldritch Knight and loses a CL on his very next level, he's gaining spell levels quicker than the Magus for ever more. The Magus gets BAB 6 a level earlier (assuming Evangelist) and stays ahead until the Gish goes EK.

Obviously the Magus has a really sweet suite of class abilities compared to which the Evangelist Gish has... his fighter bonus feat, Wizard class abilities -2 levels for most of his career, lots of skill points, a few minor Evangelist perks, whatever the deific obedience is and, of course, a crippling fear of not being able to perform it and becoming horribly mediocre. Would I recommend Gish ahead of Magus? I would flap my arms up and down and make squawking noises about not having that much knowledge - but it all comes down to what you want, tons of murder or lots of utility spells. It doesn't seem like either is an outrageously bad choice.

Sorcadin does give up a lot against the Bard and Skald though. Not so smart. Sorcerer anything really. Delayed spell progression is a pain.

[tadkins]

So the Wizards only option is to flee and use extremely careful planning to win.

Keep in mind a Magus can get a Reflection arcana that lets him reflect back a spell of any level, so long as he pays the cost for it. And since he's sure to have spellcraft maxed, he's probably going to know exactly what spell you cast, unless you've prepared it with metamagic.

So now you can start to see why the Magus is incredibly lethal against other casters.

Agreed. I'm not debating the Magus can really put the hurt on a Wizard, it's just that the Wizard can do more stuff. If I wanted to plane travel, scry and explore areas, or travel through freakin' space, I couldn't do that as a Magus, but I could as a fighting Wizard.


The Magus can basically wield whatever weapon he darn well pleases. However its trick of making a full attack and cast a spell in the same turn requires a 1H weapon. Did I mention that the spell in question can be Dimension Door? :smallbiggrin:

The spell access depends on what level you'll be playing at. The Magus has a pretty broad and versatile spell list, including utility effects like illusions, dispelling, teleport, and the entire line of polymorph spells; and can do any of that in addition to full attacking in the same round. But it doesn't get 9th level casting.

For sure, but wouldn't be wasted potential if I wanted to be a 2h Magus?

[Florian]

@Peat:

That was rather meant as a subtle nodge towards the OP to get a grip on one of the most important paradign changes between 3,5 and PF: Due to nearly everything scaling with class levels only, there are no more "empty levels" and going PrC is mostly not a power up but only a change in direction, nothing more.

The Gish issue is a pretty good showcase for this, as they all pack way more options than simply being good at fighting and casting at the same time.
Disregarding VMC for a moment, no regular gish build will come close to the pure burst capability of the Magus coupled with cheap and useful self buff or debuff (Hexcrafter) options availlable that don't even cost any spell slots.
Now taking VMC into account, other classes can gain a bit of that, too, but so can the Magus upgrade his range of options and still come out on top.

(For example, a H-Orc Warpriest with VMC Sorcerer (Orc Blood) is pretty much frightening and all set with taking Power Attack and Quicken Blessing)

So, in essence, I'm just pointing out that this still is a change of system and that there will be some relearning to do to make it work.

[Kurald Galain]

For sure, but wouldn't be wasted potential if I wanted to be a 2h Magus?

I'd suggest using a weapon that can be wielded both 1H and 2H. For example, a katana or bastard sword; that way you can switch it up as needed.

[Florian]

Or chose Wand Arcana, cast Weapon Wand and go to town with your 2H (reach) weapon of choice.

[Kurald Galain]

Or chose Wand Arcana, cast Weapon Wand and go to town with your 2H (reach) weapon of choice.
That doesn't work; spell combat explicitly requires a light or one-handed weapon.

That said, there's a variety of ways to get reach on your Magus. The question is, why do you want a 2H Magus? Is it because of the extra damage? Magus can do that. Is it because you want reach? Magus can do that too. Is it because big swords are cool? Magus can do that as well. It's a flexible class.

[Florian]

Spell Combat? Unintersting. Spellstriking with a Nodachi? Now thats fun.

[tadkins]

Is it because big swords are cool?

That's it right there. I have a character concept in mind that I'm developing and this is what I would want for his signature weapon.

http://i.imgur.com/MoZIjuU.png

Been doing a lot of reading regarding how I would want to build him and it's basically boiled down to either a Magus, a Fighter/Wizard/EK, or a fighting-based Dark Tapestry Oracle. I want a smart, inquisitive, adventurous guy with a lot of spells (particularly exploration and observation spells) that isn't too bad with a sword when combat hits.

[Spore]

I'd like to play a Sorcadin if it's doable in PF, I know Abj.Champ is usually required and it isn't in the PFSRD. But basically any Gish works for me. Anyone have any suggestions?

There are so many option it's not even funny.

Magus: Damage focussed Gish that uses its power to overkill. May have a slight problem on longer adventuring days.
Full BAB 1 /Wizard 4 into Eldritch Knight: More varied casting than the Magus, but far less damaging. Preferred method of combat is prebuffing and then going in.
Warpriest, Bard, Melee oriented Druid or Cleric as well as Inquisitor, Alchemist, Investigator or Summoner, Hunter, Skald and to some extent Bloodrager can be considered gishes as well.

But there is something you will probably feel right at home coming from 3.5:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3 into Dragon Disciple. You gain:
- Cha to saves
- Smite Evil
- somewhat stunted Sorcerer casting, but it is the real thing. Not some specialized spell list, proper wizard/sorcerer spells.
- full martial ability
- medium GAB (on average) plus huge boni on Strength and 3 natural attacks (which are arguably better than iteratives right until 18ish levels).
- continued Pala2/Sorc3/DD 8 (you get wings from your bloodline and an Robe of Arcane Heritage early enough anyway) into more Sorcerer levels provides you with superior spellcasting. You just need spells to see after your somewhat mediocre BAB and lacking HP and defense. But considering how many spells per day you have buffing up plentifully isn't a problem really.

You just have to play smart and not force the melee combat into every situation. Big groups? Fly over them and blast them with fireballs, dragon breath or fear spells. One big dude? Cast Dragon Form and go to town. Your character should exert pressure from all the spells that are cast upon him. False Life, Mage Armor, Heroism, Magic Circle against Evil, should be active all the time.

Depending on the situation, you cast Shield, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Elemental Touch, Mirror Image, Displacment. etc.

Although I prefer pure Sorcerer into Dragon Disciple (and delay DD5 in favor of another Sorcerer level giving me access to better spells) you can easily just go into DD with Paladin levels.
Just read this: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nffu?Oterisks-Guide-to-the-Dragon-Disciple

[Florian]

@Sporeegg/topic:

I'd draw the line by looking at the economy of actions involved.
If being able to cast and fight makes you a gish, then nearly all classes should be counted towards being this, making the distinction somewhat meaningless.

I propose looking at the economy of actions. If a class can do both things at the same time, them it should be counted as a gish in PF.

That'll leave Magus, Warpriest and Bloodrager.

[Kurald Galain]

That's it right there. I have a character concept in mind that I'm developing and this is what I would want for his signature weapon.
A bastard sword could cover that well enough; you can switch between 1H and 2H at need. Speaking of cool swords, have you seen the Bladebound Magus archetype?


Been doing a lot of reading regarding how I would want to build him and it's basically boiled down to either a Magus, a Fighter/Wizard/EK, or a fighting-based Dark Tapestry Oracle. I want a smart, inquisitive, adventurous guy with a lot of spells (particularly exploration and observation spells) that isn't too bad with a sword when combat hits.
Simply put, if you want a gish, play the Magus. If you want a wizard who has a sword in his hand, play the Eldritch Knight. The EK gets better spells at high level, but has to choose between casting or attacking each round, whereas the Magus does both (in addition to wearing armor and switching his weapon enchantments at need every combat). I don't see anything particularly gishy about the DT oracle, but in my view the arcane spell list is better than the cleric list at exploration and observation.

[Kurald Galain]

Magus: Damage focussed Gish that uses its power to overkill. May have a slight problem on longer adventuring days.
What do you consider a "longer" adventuring day, and why would he have a problem?

Also, note that while the most well-known Magus is indeed damage focused, it's also one of the best maneuver-using classes in the game, and can be built as an effective debuffer or crowd controller.



I propose looking at the economy of actions. If a class can do both things at the same time, them it should be counted as a gish in PF.
I agree. Doing both casting and melee makes you a gish, alternating them makes you a switch hitter.

[Spore]

What do you consider a "longer" adventuring day, and why would he have a problem?


If the Magus uses every opportunity to deal damage with spells, numbers have shown that they have to resort to spamming Ray of Frost in the third fight of the day, just to get Spell Combat off.

We started with a Magus on 7th level and it would VAPORIZE any opposition. But after a few rounds of dealing well beyond 100 DPR it spells are exhausted.


I'd draw the line by looking at the economy of actions involved.

That is why I told you about the spells that are cast at the start of the day. Mage Armor and False Life are hours/level. The other spells are cast upon entering "enemy territory" (Heroism, Circle against Evil, Resist Energy) because they last 10 minutes/level.

I agree that the combat style is somewhat switch hitting but I do not feel that takes away from the fact that you are a heavily spell inclined melee character.

[tadkins]

A bastard sword could cover that well enough; you can switch between 1H and 2H at need. Speaking of cool swords, have you seen the Bladebound Magus archetype?

I have, and the intelligent weapon sounds extremely badass. I think I would definitely go with that archetype. xD


Simply put, if you want a gish, play the Magus. If you want a wizard who has a sword in his hand, play the Eldritch Knight. The EK gets better spells at high level, but has to choose between casting or attacking each round, whereas the Magus does both (in addition to wearing armor and switching his weapon enchantments at need every combat). I don't see anything particularly gishy about the DT oracle, but in my view the arcane spell list is better than the cleric list at exploration and observation.

I was told the Oracle was pretty melee-y (I originally presented the concept as sort of a "Void Knight"), and a guide said that DT was one of the good warrior mysteries.

For sure, and it's a really tough choice. I'm looking to see if there are items that might replicate the extra stuff I would want to do (planar/interstellar travel, scrying, surviving hostile environments). If they exist I think the Magus would be the clear choice.

With that said, I really appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Kurald. :)

[Spore]

I feel Oracles are superior when it comes to dealing with the planes. Earlier Plane Shift and easier access to Planar Ally. But if you want someone travelling the planes maybe a Synth. Summoner is right up your alley.

[Kurald Galain]

If the Magus uses every opportunity to deal damage with spells, numbers have shown that they have to resort to spamming Ray of Frost in the third fight of the day, just to get Spell Combat off.

So change your tactics. You don't need to pull your 100 DPR nova every round; that's why it's a nova.

A Magus has 11 spells per day at level seven, can get more from spell recall, and should carry a few pearls of power. That gives you 15 spells per day, or three spells per combat for five combats (and after that, use touch attack cantrips, not ray of frost). That covers a longer day just fine.


For sure, and it's a really tough choice. I'm looking to see if there are items that might replicate the extra stuff I would want to do (planar/interstellar travel, scrying, surviving hostile environments). If they exist I think the Magus would be the clear choice.
Spell Blending arcana lets you grab any spell you like from the wizard list (up to level 6, of course).

[Florian]

@Kurald Galadin:

I think this has to do with the class lending itself well to some kind of overkill mentality. It is too easy to always nuke away without it actually being necessary.

Had two notable occasions with this problem:
One involved a new player who got the impression that an attack without spell combat/spellstrike was not possible, thereby burning all his spell slots.
The other was actually a veteran player who was deep into 3,5 and mostly into Initiator classes and tryed to squeeze similiar results from the Magus.

[Kurald Galain]

@Kurald Galadin:

I think this has to do with the class lending itself well to some kind of overkill mentality. It is too easy to always nuke away without it actually being necessary.

Yes, I've seen that. One of the reasons I've written the Magus Guide is to show that you can do much more with the class than just spamming shocking grasp.

[Florian]

@tadkins:

If you're comcerned about the style and want to keep using a 2H, so, out of curiosity, have you considered the other two gish options, Warpriest and Bloodrager? Both actually do quite well with these kinds of weapon.

[tadkins]

I feel Oracles are superior when it comes to dealing with the planes. Earlier Plane Shift and easier access to Planar Ally. But if you want someone travelling the planes maybe a Synth. Summoner is right up your alley.

Oracle does have a lot of what I was looking for. Dark Tapestry one even moreso. I've never really looked at the Summoner, but I will check it out. Thanks. :)




Spell Blending arcana lets you grab any spell you like from the wizard list (up to level 6, of course).

This would cover some of it. It's a bloody shame you can't get Plane Shift up there though.


@tadkins:

If you're comcerned about the style and want to keep using a 2H, so, out of curiosity, have you considered the other two gish options, Warpriest and Bloodrager? Both actually do quite well with these kinds of weapon.

I just took a look at them but the fluff doesn't really match up with what I want for the concept. I was thinking of a Link/Sora-style adventurer that's decent with a sword, has access to magic, and can solve problems with his mind.