Initiative = dexterity + wisdom?

[HidesHisEyes]

I may be running a game for a group of new players soon and I'm thinking of finally implementing a minor house rule that I've always thought would be good: your initiative bonus is your dexterity bonus plus your wisdom bonus, instead of just dexterity.

My simulationist reasoning is that physical reaction time isn't the only factor in acting early in a fight. There's also noticing the threat (perception, a wisdom skill) or in a social situation noticing the change in someone's demeanour just before they kick off (insight, also a wisdom skill).

My gameplay reasoning is that it would add a little more variety into the average initiative order, although it wouldn't be hugely noticeable. I guess it would make rangers and monks the kings of initiative, which seems fair and right to me, and not to a broken degree since they can still roll low.

Pretty interested to see what others make of this.

[Mr.Moron]

This is a reasonable house rule. You can honestly make justifications for a lot of different checks being "Initiative", depending on the circumstance. If you like this particular arrangement I can't see how it could hurt anything from an in-universe or meta perspective. I think on the whole it'll tend to benefit PCs a tiny bit more than monsters but that's hardly the end of the world.

[KorvinStarmast]

your initiative bonus is your dexterity bonus plus your wisdom bonus, instead of just dexterity.

My simulationist reasoning is that physical reaction time isn't the only factor in acting early in a fight.
How do your Fighters and Barbarians appreciate this bias against them? Simulationist needs to consider play balance.

Or, you can just tell the martials to get into the back of the bus and they go last. :smallyuk:

[kaoskonfety]

Fast monk is fast - I don't see any serious issue with it?
It will make a few of the already slow builds (Str warriors, wizards, sorcs probably others) a bit slower, relatively speaking and its a small buff for clerics and the like?

Maybe make it an either/or situation rather than both to avoid some silly large numbers that nearly ensure "I go first" (alert + dex/wis 20 monk or some multi classing that has dipped bard for jack of all trades - I'm sure there is worse out there). But if you don't think its a problem, it isn't.

[JNAProductions]

I'd make it Intelligence and Dexterity. First off, Intelligence seems more appropiate, and secondly, Wisdom is already a strong ability. Intelligence is the usual dumpstat, so it'd add some help to it.

[eastmabl]

I like it as a house rule.

How would you implement it for monsters, or is this a "player only" rule?

The side effect of applying this to monsters is that it punishes high Dex, low Wis monsters. For example, take an animated sword, which should act very quickly in my DM's eye. This rule would take the animated sword from a initiative modifier +2 to -1 due to its lack of Wisdom. I don't know if I like that outcome for my monsters.

Maybe, just give all monsters +1 to their initiative to offset the relative bump to player power and the unforeseen consequences for monsters with high/low wisdom.

[Douche]

Wouldn't that be an incredibly high bonus if you're, like, a rogue or a ranger?

I'd allow the player to pick one or the other, whichever is higher.

[Brother Oni]

I can see an argument for Initiative being Dexterity+Intelligence, since it's not only having the physical reaction time, but the ability to think quickly enough to choose an action.

This way, smart and fast people have the best initiative, while smart but clumsy people and stupid but fast people even out (one can think of an action quickly but can't do it in time, while the other has problems thinking of an action but can do it well), with stupid clumsy people being the slowest.

[kaoskonfety]

How do your Fighters and Barbarians appreciate this bias against them? Simulationist needs to consider play balance.

Or, you can just tell the martials to get into the back of the bus and they go last. :smallyuk:

The challenge I'm seeing is the kneecapping Rogue more than the Barbarians and Fighters (yes it is still taking some wind out of their sails). But they don't generally lean as much on being fast to deal and evade damage.

For Rogues:
Either they get wisdom at the cost of... Con probably?... and stay fast, get to get surprise and then probably go first and keep that hit and run niche...
Or they give it up, get fewer sneak attacks and generally loose a bit of their shtick.

[EggKookoo]

Wouldn't that be an incredibly high bonus if you're, like, a rogue or a ranger?

I'd allow the player to pick one or the other, whichever is higher.

This would be my preference as well.

[manny2510]

This would be my preference as well.

I think that all stats are already factored into initiative. If I succeed a perception check to notice assassins I act in the surprise round. If I succeed in a deception check I can gain a surprise round if I attack abruptly someone that thought they were safe. If I make my con save against drow poison I can act without being impaired. If I make my athletics to climb to a plateau I arrive in a timely manner and may act accordingly. You need to put effort to see how all of these may apply in different circumstances, but I think right now they seem to be appropriately implemented.

[Demonic Spoon]

Would it be a bad idea to completely detach initiative from Dexterity for players, and attach it to Int instead? Might make Dex less of a mandatory stat.

You can do the same thing for human-like monsters (e.g. giants) while retaining Dex for animals and animal-like monsters (e.g. Bulette).

[JakOfAllTirades]

Would it be a bad idea to completely detach initiative from Dexterity for players, and attach it to Int instead? Might make Dex less of a mandatory stat.

Hmmm... this is very interesting.

[DracoKnight]

I may be running a game for a group of new players soon and I'm thinking of finally implementing a minor house rule that I've always thought would be good: your initiative bonus is your dexterity bonus plus your wisdom bonus, instead of just dexterity.

My simulationist reasoning is that physical reaction time isn't the only factor in acting early in a fight. There's also noticing the threat (perception, a wisdom skill) or in a social situation noticing the change in someone's demeanour just before they kick off (insight, also a wisdom skill).

My gameplay reasoning is that it would add a little more variety into the average initiative order, although it wouldn't be hugely noticeable. I guess it would make rangers and monks the kings of initiative, which seems fair and right to me, and not to a broken degree since they can still roll low.

Pretty interested to see what others make of this.

Welp, OP monk now goes before everyone else. As does Ranger. Everyone needs to take Alert now, and just outclass everything else's initiative, and never get surprised.

Well, Monk isn't exactly OP, but my gaming group did a breakdown of it, and it's definitely the most versatile class, and gets decent damage. Long Death and Sun Soul only add to its versatility. :)

[saeval]

Just reading the title, my gut instinct is to agree, it just sounds right. Actually thinking about it mechanically, I would say an Either/Or scenario is probably more fair to the whole group. generally, you don't want your house rule to benefit some and hurt others. A rogue shouldn't be punished for having a limited option in a standard array, or even a low set of rolls.

[Tanarii]

My first thought is that Wis is already part of Initiative, so this house rule is unnecessary. If you fail your Wisdom (Perception) check vs Dexterity (Stealth), you get surprised. If you succeed, you then move on to reaction time: Dex (Initiative) checks.

A DM can, and IMO should, rule that it's a Wisdom (Insight) vs Cha (Deception) in social situation ambush. That'd apply to assassins disguised as someone else. ie wine waiter has a gun under his napkin, or the Tinker traveling down the road is really a ninja. Or getting jumped in a Red Wedding type scenario, noticing the host is behaving oddly right before he signals those hidden archers to loose the storm.

Mexican stand-off should be straight Dex (Initiative) checks ... they're just reaction time.

Edit: In other words, if you do this, I think you're rewarding Wis players twice for their bonus.

[EggKookoo]

I think that all stats are already factored into initiative. If I succeed a perception check to notice assassins I act in the surprise round. If I succeed in a deception check I can gain a surprise round if I attack abruptly someone that thought they were safe. If I make my con save against drow poison I can act without being impaired. If I make my athletics to climb to a plateau I arrive in a timely manner and may act accordingly. You need to put effort to see how all of these may apply in different circumstances, but I think right now they seem to be appropriately implemented.

I see what you mean. I don't know if I would go with the either route at my own table. I just meant, given the choice between DEX+WIS and DEX||WIS, I'd go with the latter.

[Tenmujiin]

If I were going to use a mental stat for initiative it would be int since int is easily the worst stat and in 5e int is how fast you think while wis is how "good" you think. If anything I would just move initiative from dex to int as a few others have said since dex is kinda overpowered.

[hymer]

in 5e int is how fast you think

Eh? What makes you say that?


wis is how "good" you think.

And what makes you say that, and... What does it mean?

[Tanarii]

How does Int, which "measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason" help with reaction time when **** suddenly hits the fan? Are you pulling a movie Sherlock Holmes and reasoning so well you can see the future coming or something?

[Shekinah]

My DM uses Charisma + Dexterity as initiative. We use wits as our general excuse, and while that is definitely more a mental stat than a social one, we think of it as a force of personality that drives a character to go into a fight head-on.

"You dare think you can challenge ME? Do you know who I AM?" And so on and so forth.

Feel free to disagree with it, but hey, it works for the group we have.

[Demonic Spoon]

How does Int, which "measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason" help with reaction time when **** suddenly hits the fan? Are you pulling a movie Sherlock Holmes and reasoning so well you can see the future coming or something?

No one suggested that Int should be used to detect ambushes and avoid Surprise.

Initiative is just how quickly you do your thing in the 6 second turn. It's not just reaction time - a character needs to figure out what they want to do before they actually do it. Mental acuity could presumably help you do that faster.

[Tanarii]

It's not just reaction time - a character needs to figure out what they want to do before they actually do it. Mental acuity could presumably help you do that faster.That's a bizarre interpretation. Especially since in the real world, thinking makes you react *slower*. That's the entire point of katas, muscle memory, emergency training etc. To react without thought using pre-trained responses. Int is something you use when you have time, not when you don't.

[GlenSmash!]

That's a bizarre interpretation. Especially since in the real world, thinking makes you react *slower*. That's the entire point of katas, muscle memory, emergency training etc. To react without thought using pre-trained responses. Int is something you use when you have time, not when you don't.

I'm inclined to agree. I've known many smart individuals that I would model as High INT characters that were not quick thinkers. For example they are terrible at Real-Time Strategy Games because of the pressure the time crunch puts on them, but in a game where they have more time like Risk they are unbeatable.

I think it's ok for quick thinking to be a part of Dex and deep thinking a part of Int. If I want a character that has both I'll invest in both stats.

[Slipperychicken]

Wisdom is already represented in the surprise mechanics. Adding it to the initiative stat is unnecessary.

[AbyssStalker]

That's a bizarre interpretation. Especially since in the real world, thinking makes you react *slower*. That's the entire point of katas, muscle memory, emergency training etc. To react without thought using pre-trained responses. Int is something you use when you have time, not when you don't.

This is true, and if it worked like this we would likely use our proficiency as our initiative bonus, more experience means quicker reaction times. Just being nimble fingered, preachy, or smart doesn't cut it.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if there were no initiative bonuses, it's kind of ridiculous to pin initiative on one attribute anyways, but it does work for the sake of the system, so I'm not gonna complain.

[Tanarii]

This is true, and if it worked like this we would likely use our proficiency as our initiative bonus, more experience means quicker reaction times. Just being nimble fingered, preachy, or smart doesn't cut it.Honestly, I'm not sure why that isn't the case. Also I remember rolling d6 for Side Initiative with no bonuses, as opposed to personal initiative, back in days of yore. I can't remember what editions had what at this point though.

[Demonic Spoon]

Honestly, I'm not sure why that isn't the case. Also I remember rolling d6 for Side Initiative with no bonuses, as opposed to personal initiative, back in days of yore. I can't remember what editions had what at this point though.

I probably like this approach best (or just not tie it to any attribute at all, just use a straight dX roll). Only downside is that you have to figure out how it works with things like Jack of All Trades.

[Tanarii]

I't wouldn't work with Jack of All Trades. That feature only adds to rolls that don't already include the Proficiency Bonus.

[Keltest]

Personally, I would make it Dex, for physical reaction speed, and int, for decision making speed, but wisdom could work too, I suppose.

[Demonic Spoon]

I't wouldn't work with Jack of All Trades. That feature only adds to rolls that don't already include the Proficiency Bonus.

That would be one way to rule it, which would constitute a nerf to Jack of All Trades and bards in general. You could also houserule Jack of All Trades (since we're already in houserule territory) to apply to initiative checks anyway.

[Vogonjeltz]

I may be running a game for a group of new players soon and I'm thinking of finally implementing a minor house rule that I've always thought would be good: your initiative bonus is your dexterity bonus plus your wisdom bonus, instead of just dexterity.

My simulationist reasoning is that physical reaction time isn't the only factor in acting early in a fight. There's also noticing the threat (perception, a wisdom skill) or in a social situation noticing the change in someone's demeanour just before they kick off (insight, also a wisdom skill).

My gameplay reasoning is that it would add a little more variety into the average initiative order, although it wouldn't be hugely noticeable. I guess it would make rangers and monks the kings of initiative, which seems fair and right to me, and not to a broken degree since they can still roll low.

Pretty interested to see what others make of this.

This is already modeled by the existence of Surprise. If one side is stealthy (or should not be noticed by the enemy) then the other side can't act on the first round of combat, so on their turn they would do nothing even if they have the higher initiative which just models the speed at which each character can act.

So I'd say it's redundant.


I'd make it Intelligence and Dexterity. First off, Intelligence seems more appropiate, and secondly, Wisdom is already a strong ability. Intelligence is the usual dumpstat, so it'd add some help to it.

Wisdom is about how awareness, intelligence is about understanding meaning.

So, a character might have the Intelligence to figure out that the creatures are planning an ambush, but only if they have the Wisdom to detect the clues to that effect.

[Raimun]

That sounds good from a mechanical point of view and it does make a lot of sense. Shadowrun has something similar, where your initiative is determined by your Intuition (senses) and Reaction (well... reaction).

[Monkplayer]

adding Wisdom can been seen as an insight bonus.

[bid]

Wisdom is about how awareness, intelligence is about understanding meaning.
If I was to map physical to mental stats, I would match:
- Cha is the Str to convince,
- Wis is the Con to resist,
- Int is the Dex of mind.

If you take this approach, I don't think there's a better mapping.

[Brother Oni]

That's a bizarre interpretation. Especially since in the real world, thinking makes you react *slower*. That's the entire point of katas, muscle memory, emergency training etc. To react without thought using pre-trained responses. Int is something you use when you have time, not when you don't.

Except that threat/situation assessment and decision of available tactics to counter that, would most definitely be Int.

It depends on what level of abstraction you consider a combat round to be - a hand to hand fight would be very quick, pure muscle memory type of fight (Dex only), but it's an entirely different situation to a senior NCO looking at an enemy position and shouting specific tactical orders to his men to outflank, encircle and destroy, all the while under enemy fire (Int for the calculation, Dex not to get shot).

[ad_hoc]

Wisdom is already good and this is a huge nerf to rogues.

Thematically Wisdom is also the last stat I would use for initiative. I don't know about others, but I have a tendency to play low Wisdom characters as rushing ahead without pausing to think about the consequences of their actions or imminent danger.

Mechanically the stat that needs the most help is Int. It makes sense for EK and Rogue archetypes to use their Int to increase their initiative. Since Wizards are probably using their action to cast a learned spell, I could see it making sense there too.

[djreynolds]

I may be running a game for a group of new players soon and I'm thinking of finally implementing a minor house rule that I've always thought would be good: your initiative bonus is your dexterity bonus plus your wisdom bonus, instead of just dexterity.

My simulationist reasoning is that physical reaction time isn't the only factor in acting early in a fight. There's also noticing the threat (perception, a wisdom skill) or in a social situation noticing the change in someone's demeanour just before they kick off (insight, also a wisdom skill).

My gameplay reasoning is that it would add a little more variety into the average initiative order, although it wouldn't be hugely noticeable. I guess it would make rangers and monks the kings of initiative, which seems fair and right to me, and not to a broken degree since they can still roll low.

Pretty interested to see what others make of this.

I'm in favor of dexterity + proficiency bonus. Experience is wisdom, in a sense.

[Dericof Diname]

The reason I would like to try the dex+wis to initiative is to give my barbarian more chances to strike first.

The thing that always bothers me of the traditional dex bonus to Init is that only favors dex characters with the dice being the only thing keeping a sense of fairness.

[Tanarii]

Except that threat/situation assessment and decision of available tactics to counter that, would most definitely be Int.

It depends on what level of abstraction you consider a combat round to be - a hand to hand fight would be very quick, pure muscle memory type of fight (Dex only), but it's an entirely different situation to a senior NCO looking at an enemy position and shouting specific tactical orders to his men to outflank, encircle and destroy, all the while under enemy fire (Int for the calculation, Dex not to get shot).
For sure. But typically someone doing that isn't also fighting the enemy directly. Sounds like a 4e lazy warlord to me. ;)

But yeah, certainly a high Int character might have some kind of tactical advantage. That's why I asked if it was supposed to be using a Sherlock Holmes-style Int to reason out when a fight will break out in your mind ahead of time, before it starts. Of course in the movies case, I'd model that more as adding Int to his attack or damage rolls, not necessarily his Initiative.

[MaxWilson]

I may be running a game for a group of new players soon and I'm thinking of finally implementing a minor house rule that I've always thought would be good: your initiative bonus is your dexterity bonus plus your wisdom bonus, instead of just dexterity.

My simulationist reasoning is that physical reaction time isn't the only factor in acting early in a fight. There's also noticing the threat (perception, a wisdom skill) or in a social situation noticing the change in someone's demeanour just before they kick off (insight, also a wisdom skill).

The speed of your OODA loop (Observe/Orient/Decide/Act) is hugely important. Dex + Int would make sense for modelling that.

In my game it's modelled a little differently though. Use Speed Factor/AD&D initiative (everyone declares actions, THEN everyone resolves actions) and those with higher intelligence get to declare last. That way quick-but-dumb guys can do simple, uncomplicated things quickly ("I shiv the guy!") but smarter guys are better at making complicated plans ("if no one is attacking me I Fireball, otherwise I Dodge") but they still have to be fast in order to actually implement those plans successfully.

[Tanarii]

In my game it's modelled a little differently though. Use Speed Factor/AD&D initiative (everyone declares actions, THEN everyone resolves actions) and those with higher intelligence get to declare last. That way quick-but-dumb guys can do simple, uncomplicated things quickly ("I shiv the guy!") but smarter guys are better at making complicated plans ("if no one is attacking me I Fireball, otherwise I Dodge") but they still have to be fast in order to actually implement those plans successfully.Do you actually allow dual (or more) declarations for high-Int characters later in the declaring order? Or are you talking about the players thinking process?

[MaxWilson]

Do you actually allow dual (or more) declarations for high-Int characters later in the declaring order? Or are you talking about the players thinking process?

1.) I was talking about the player's thought process.

2.) I have actually allowed conditional declarations by anyone, like "I'll attack the orc if he's still standing, otherwise I'll attack the goblin," on the grounds that it's still a single decision from an OODA loop perspective. So far no one has tried to game the system by declaring super-complicated actions--instead, they just boost Int. :) Or take the Alert feat, which trumps Int.

[Tanarii]

1.) I was talking about the player's thought process.

2.) I have actually allowed conditional declarations by anyone, like "I'll attack the orc if he's still standing, otherwise I'll attack the goblin," on the grounds that it's still a single decision from an OODA loop perspective. So far no one has tried to game the system by declaring super-complicated actions--instead, they just boost Int. :) Or take the Alert feat, which trumps Int.Oh okay. That means the PCs get to know their enemies declared actions too. That's the part I was missing. Otherwise the boosted Int would only help with regards to allies actions being declared first. That's not a bad system. I may steal it. ;)

[MaxWilson]

Oh okay. That means the PCs get to know their enemies declared actions too. That's the part I was missing. Otherwise the boosted Int would only help with regards to allies actions being declared first. That's not a bad system. I may steal it. ;)

Yes, definitely. In practice I don't force the players to declare in order, I just do the equivalent--I let higher-Int (N)PCs interrogate lower-Int ones. E.g. "What is the goblin planning to do this round? Okay, then I'm going to Shadow Jump behind the ogre, stab him in the kidneys, kick him in the knee, and retreat back into the shadows as far as I can."

This house rule doesn't work with standard cyclic initiative of course, because in cyclic initiative decision and action are synchronous.

[Theodoxus]

My DM uses Charisma + Dexterity as initiative. We use wits as our general excuse, and while that is definitely more a mental stat than a social one, we think of it as a force of personality that drives a character to go into a fight head-on.

"You dare think you can challenge ME? Do you know who I AM?" And so on and so forth.

Feel free to disagree with it, but hey, it works for the group we have.

How does that mesh with the Swashbuckler archetype - they get Cha to Init... or that probably hasn't come up...


To the OP, were I not playing 5th Ed (and it's emphasis on K.I.S.S philosophy), I'd make it all complicated.

Dex minus Int (so, dumping Int actually speeds up your reaction time) plus Wis, using the OODA system described above. Physical quickness and wisdom gets the jump, being dumb means you're not over thinking the process, however, you trade quickness for tactical knowledge - being super smart might mean you're going last in initiative, but you can coordinate your action with your fellows better.

But, outside of that, I prefer the d6 type system for attributes and combat... but that's a reworking of the engine and more than this thread should deal with. So, I'd leave it at Dex, and then using Swashbuckler as a basis, allow for other stats to add in, given in feats, class abilities or perhaps potions (I really like potions... there should be way more potions than magic items, imo.)