Assassin's Death Attack study clause

[Flickerdart]

Death Attack says:

"If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice)."

This is well-known as something which sucks, and makes an otherwise-decent SoD useless for PCs in non-ambush encounters. However, studying doesn't require the assassin to do nothing:

"While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy."

This obviously seems intended for an assassin that's sneaking up to a target on the move. But I feel like it can be abused - there's no clause that you can't do this in battle, as long as the enemy doesn't detect you or know that you're an enemy.

A concealed assassin can command minions telepathically or concentrate on spells that target and harm the enemy. As long as the victim doesn't know there is an assassin, how can it recognize the assassin as an enemy?

But the question is - could an assassin under greater invisibility spend three rounds attacking a mark, and then attempt a Death Attack? Technically, if the victim has not seen the assassin, he is neither detected nor recognized as an enemy (as above). Surely detecting the assassin's dagger with your spine doesn't count.

Do you think this slides? What about other things an assassin can do while waiting for Death Attack to proc?

[legomaster00156]

Of course these work. They're practically the only ways to make a Death Attack.

[TheIronGolem]

I'm not sure there's really a problem here.

If an assassin spends three rounds sneak-attacking a target, only to kill them with a Death Attack on the fourth, then none of that damage he did actually mattered, and he has still effectively spent three rounds doing nothing. Four, if he used an action to make himself invisible or something.

Now, this would be less true if those first three rounds of attacks helped set up the Death Attack, like if he was using CON-damaging poisons or something similar that would lower the target's Fort save and thus make the DA more likely to stick. But this still means three rounds of the target being aware that combat is happening and having chances to ruin the Death Attack by killing, revealing, or escaping from the assassin. I'd hold that this is pretty far from overpowered, especially given that a Wizard or Cleric has access to much more efficient and reliable ways to Save-or-Die a target even at the Assassin's entry level.

[JeenLeen]

From a RAW perspective, does 'detect' or 'recognize' have any defined meaning in the rules?

For example, from the invisible guy attacking & studying at the same time, I can see this failing because the target certainly knows someone is there (detecting from which square the stabbing comes) stabbing at him (and thus an enemy) and thus this counts as 'detecting' and 'recognizing'. You can know an enemy is somewhere (and, perhaps more importantly, that an enemy is) without knowing where exactly they are.

From a DM perspective, I could see it going either way. These seem fair applications of a power that is not overpowered and usually boosts rogues, so that sounds cool.

Telepathically commanding minions, concentrating on spells that afflict the target, or other things that let you focus on the target for three turns without being recognized sound like legit things to do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would use the following guideline: If you are ever unable to pinpoint your target, your observation ends. Any enemy with total concealment or cover relative to the assassin is not under observation.

If you do rule that it works, it'd be fun to use Stormguard Warrior and power up on the third round before the death attack. Refraining from making AoOs does not break stealth, though non-damaging touch attacks probably do (as they are still attacks). Of course it doesn't help your save DC, but maybe you can ask your DM to houserule that in.

[Psyren]

You basically need a DM to rule on what "recognize the assassin as an enemy" entails. If you're invisible the whole time you can certainly make an argument that you haven't been recognized as an enemy despite sticking them with pointy things for the last 18 seconds.

For me personally, if the target has any kind of sense that will help in this situations (even scent or Blind-Fight) then I'd argue that they detected you.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm not sure there's really a problem here.

If an assassin spends three rounds sneak-attacking a target, only to kill them with a Death Attack on the fourth, then none of that damage he did actually mattered, and he has still effectively spent three rounds doing nothing. Four, if he used an action to make himself invisible or something.

Now, this would be less true if those first three rounds of attacks helped set up the Death Attack, like if he was using CON-damaging poisons or something similar that would lower the target's Fort save and thus make the DA more likely to stick. But this still means three rounds of the target being aware that combat is happening and having chances to ruin the Death Attack by killing, revealing, or escaping from the assassin. I'd hold that this is pretty far from overpowered, especially given that a Wizard or Cleric has access to much more efficient and reliable ways to Save-or-Die a target even at the Assassin's entry level.

I agree with this approach to it. Although, it seems like it would be much easier to hit the opponent on the last round with a mosquito bite skill trick based attack that drops their fortitude save, I'm sure there is a poison that you can figure out that does this. Just use those first two rounds watching silently. While your party twiddles their thumbs back at camp.

Question, can you stack the stonedeath assassin (ROS) ability on top of this death attack? Like can the enemy be forced to take 2 saves vs. death with the same attack?

Here is my thinking, if we can stack enough forced rerolls + death effects on the same sneak attack, your opponent is going to roll a 1.

psychic rogue 5/psychic assassin 3/cultist of the shattered peak 5/Black flame zealot 1/thayan slaver 1/black dog 2/assassin 3
2 feats for black flame zealot entry
1 feat for black dog
two weapon fighting
that feat that lets you add sneak attack damage to critical hits.
that's like 6 fort saves. 6/20 chance of killing/paralyzing the opponent by them rolling a 1. PER SNEAK ATTACK on the TARGET.
Plus the fort saves from your poison...Might I suggest something that makes fort saves weaker.

[Khedrac]

"While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy."

A concealed assassin can command minions telepathically or concentrate on spells that target and harm the enemy.
If you are trying to concentrate on something else then your attention is not staying focused.

Personally I think a good way to resolve staying focused is a concentration check. DCs are subject to DM whim for things like commanding minions (for me it would depend on the complexity of the command and what the minion is reporting back. Routine instructions would be fine (DC5 say) but surprises or complex detail shoves it way up.
Anything that would interrupt concentration interrupts the assassin's study.

(I had a wizard temporarily killed because I was ignoring an invisible assassin - more important things to battlefield control - when the DM declared the death attack he was so pleased until I pointed out that I had see invisible up and was aware of the assassin all the time, he then somehow did enough damage to kill me, I do hope the DM remembered I also had full fortification up.)

[Twurps]

I agree with this approach to it. Although, it seems like it would be much easier to hit the opponent on the last round with a mosquito bite skill trick based attack that drops their fortitude save, I'm sure there is a poison that you can figure out that does this. Just use those first two rounds watching silently. While your party twiddles their thumbs back at camp.

Question, can you stack the stonedeath assassin (ROS) ability on top of this death attack? Like can the enemy be forced to take 2 saves vs. death with the same attack?

Here is my thinking, if we can stack enough forced rerolls + death effects on the same sneak attack, your opponent is going to roll a 1.

psychic rogue 5/psychic assassin 3/cultist of the shattered peak 5/Black flame zealot 1/thayan slaver 1/black dog 2/assassin 3
2 feats for black flame zealot entry
1 feat for black dog
two weapon fighting
that feat that lets you add sneak attack damage to critical hits.
that's like 6 fort saves. 6/20 chance of killing/paralyzing the opponent by them rolling a 1. PER SNEAK ATTACK on the TARGET.
Plus the fort saves from your poison...Might I suggest something that makes fort saves weaker.

Minor Nitpicks:
It doesn't matter how many attacks you make, you can only make 1 death attack per round:

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. (emphasis mine)
If you succeed on the first attempt, the target is obviously dead. If you fail, 3 new rounds of study are required.

Stacking stonedeath assassin (just as cultist of the shattered peaks, bot not both due to racial requirement conflicts) works by RAW I quess. Though it costs 5 levels not spent on optimizing your 'regular' death attack. Thus this is only a viable option if you're fully depending on a nat1 roll. (Not a situation you want te be in/build for).
In any other situation, those 5 levels are better spent optimizing your regular death attack with 'death attack progressing' classing such as Telflammar Shadowlord.

Black flame Zealot stacks with assassin, so increases the save DC, but does not force an additional save.

I like the idea of using mosquito's bite to do con-damage. There are some TOB maneuvers that do this, and a dip in swordsage never hurts in builds like this.

[Chronos]

If it worked, there'd be no downside to spending those rounds attacking: Yeah, it'll be redundant if the death attack works, but if it doesn't, then it leaves killing via HP damage open as a backup plan. But I would rule that (aside from Mosquito's Bite) a successful attack leaves the target aware of you, and aware that you're an enemy: Getting stabbed is a pretty good indicator both that there's someone there, and that that someone doesn't like you. The clause about not realizing that you're an enemy is for an assassin who's disguised, or who has bluffed the target into believing that he's a double agent, or something like that.

[The Viscount]

I assume we're talking about means other than deathsight from CMage. Quick question on deathsight, does it negate the need for the attack to be a sneak attack? Because if it does it makes the ability significantly more useful. Also if the opponent succeeds on their save do they still take sneak attack damage?

Back on topic, I feel like if the enemy realizes they take damage from an invisible assassin that they detect the assassin, though Mosquito's Bite could still prevent them from noticing. If you have strong enough enchantment up to make them not think of you as an enemy (say mindbender) then perhaps you could similarly study them while attacking their allies? I'd rule that remote viewing via Eyes of the Zombie or whatever you like would also count as observation. You could technically use a time stop to study them then kill them with Death Attack, but that's kind of like using a fusion reactor to cook your eggs.

Other stupid things you can do include combine size reduction with disguise self. Disguise self makes you appear 1 foot shorter, so if you are below 1 foot in height before, you will have negative height. Presumably creatures of the material plane cannot comprehend this, so will be unable to perceive you as an entity, much less an object (I'm thinking shades of Flatland from Cosmos).

[Chronos]

Attacking their allies won't work, though, because if you're attacking someone else, you're not focusing on the person you're targeting.

[Twurps]

Quick question on deathsight, does it negate the need for the attack to be a sneak attack? Because if it does it makes the ability significantly more useful.
Alas, no. The spell negates the '3 rounds study' requirement, but 'all other rules apply as normal'.


Also if the opponent succeeds on their save do they still take sneak attack damage?
Yes:

If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack.

[The Viscount]

Oh well, just have to spend your swift casting vital strike as well.

[Curmudgeon]

Oh well, just have to spend your swift casting vital strike as well.
Doesn't that spoil the whole Death Attack preparation?
While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy.

Concentration

To cast a spell, you must concentrate.
You're either concentrating on your Death Attack target, or on the spell. You can't concentrate on both at the same time, because Vital Strike (Complete Mage, page 122) doesn't have an exception to the usual spell rule.

[Twurps]

Doesn't that spoil the whole Death Attack preparation?

You're either concentrating on your Death Attack target, or on the spell. You can't concentrate on both at the same time, because Vital Strike (Complete Mage, page 122) doesn't have an exception to the usual spell rule.

I think you missed the 'deathsight' part of The Viscount's plan. That spell eliminates the need to study completely.

So round 1: Cast 'deathsight' as a standard action. Free move action
round 2: use swift action for 'vital strike'. Attack your enemy, who is now flatfooted, with a death attack that you don't need to study for.
roud 3: profit

Takes 2 spells for just 1 attack, so not a viable 'all day long' tactic, but when in need....

[elonin]

I don't think this is RAW but what do you think of successive death attacks as long as the conditions apply? On round 3 you get your first death attack then if it is unsuccessful there could be another death attack on rounds 4,5... as long as undetected.

[Curmudgeon]

I think you missed the 'deathsight' part of The Viscount's plan. That spell eliminates the need to study completely.
No, I got hung up on the specific wording:
without the need for the standard 3 rounds of observation. All other rules for a death attack, such as determining success and damage dealt, apply as normal. I read this as replacing the observation time with whatever time it takes between casting Deathsight until the attack (i.e., within the allowed period until the end of the next turn). But I'll allow that eliminating the observation phase, as opposed to reducing the rounds necessary, is more in line with a 4th-level spell.