Sun Soul Monk

[Estralita]

So, I've seen a bunch of discussion of Bladesingers, and Long Death Monks, but not the new archetype I'm actually hoping to play. So maybe we can change that.

I don't own SCAG just yet, I have to wait about a month for Birthdays and Christmas to roll around but I am interested in playing it. What are people's thought on the archetype anyway? Good? Bad? NBD?

[Maxilian]

At lvl 1 you get the ability to use your attack action (does work with Extra attack and anything that works around the Attack action, but no OA for you with this -still... not like you're going to use it-) to make a Range Spell Attack (uses DEX) -30 feet range- that does radiant damage (damage equal to the martial art column) and give you an ability that's Flurry of Blows but with the range attack, sadly you can't use your bonus action attack to also make a range spell attack :S (the one given by martial arts)

Note: You can use the Crossbow Expert feat to ignore the disadvantage of your attacks on melee, the Spell Sniper lets your attack ignore Half cover and Three-quarters cover, also you could like to use a feat to take the place of your bonus action attack (Shield Master would be a nice option, but sadly you're a monk and shields are normally a big no, MC into War Cleric would be nice -would be able to use the War priest ability after attacking with your range attack, but would need a weapon -a bow could work, you're using the same DEX either way-), also... the is a Range Spell Attack, but you're not casting a spell, so it doesn't work with War Caster (and other things that work around spells unless they say Range Attacks or Range Spell Attacks -at least you can use it as a Raging barbarian!)

At lvl 6 you get Burning Hands lvl 1 that can only be used after you make the attack action... as a bonus action! (2 ki points), and cost 1 ki points to increase its lvl (can only use half of your monk lvl as ki point in this ability -rounded down, minimun 2 ki points-) That's pretty good!

At lvl 11, you get the ability to cast an orb of light as an action with a 150 range (target its a point not an object), each creature in a 20-f radius sphere make a CON save or take 2d6 (auto win save if in full cover that's opaque) doesn-t cost Ki Points, but you can use 1 ki point (max 3) to add 2d6 (per ki point).

At lvl 17 you get an aura of light (30-f radius bright light and dim light for another 30) can put it on or off as a Bonus action, if you are hit while you have this aura on, you can use your reaction to deal radiant damage (5 + WIS Mod), have in mind... that you DEAL 5 + WIS, so save, no AC, no anything...

Note2: You can use the range spell attack in any animal form if you Multiclass into a druid (Laser monkey, laser lizard, laser flying snake and so on)

[Submortimer]

I'd also argue in favor of allowing Spell Sniper to double the range of your Monk Lasers: it's not RAW, but it certainly fits within RAI (since Monk Lasers are ranged Spell attacks).

I still wish that they let you use Wisdom instead of dexterity, but that's only because I want to multiclass this with light cleric.

[Maxilian]

I'd also argue in favor of allowing Spell Sniper to double the range of your Monk Lasers: it's not RAW, but it certainly fits within RAI (since Monk Lasers are ranged Spell attacks).

I still wish that they let you use Wisdom instead of dexterity, but that's only because I want to multiclass this with light cleric.

I don't think the Spell Sniper would add that much to it (nor would brake it so meeehh), and yes... i do feel you.

[Bubzors]

All I could think about when reading the sun soul monk was DRAGON BALL Z! now just find a way to fly, dye your hair blond and you're a super saiyan

[Estralita]

Yeah, I've been hearing that.:smallbiggrin:

I guess my big question is, is it any good? I don't think it's going to change my choice of archetype for my monk, but I would really like to know. People always say 4 element monk sucks, is this any better?

[Mrglee]

Yeah, I've been hearing that.:smallbiggrin:

I guess my big question is, is it any good? I don't think it's going to change my choice of archetype for my monk, but I would really like to know. People always say 4 element monk sucks, is this any better?

I would argue a lot better. That being said, you do lose out on some potentially useful out of combat stuff from four ways.

[Maxilian]

All I could think about when reading the sun soul monk was DRAGON BALL Z! now just find a way to fly, dye your hair blond and you're a super saiyan

True, something i would like to point out is:

The Sun Soul attack work with DEX so many animal forms become way better in battle (cause they have a high DEX, mostly tiny animals), like the weasel, stirges, quipper, Poisonous snake, Hawk, Giant Wolf Spider, Giant Weasel, Giant Spider, Giant Elk, Giant Eagle, Giant Bat (All of those have +3 DEX)

Others a little better like the Giant Poisonous Snake and Flying Snake (+4 DEX)

-Only checked the beasts shown in the playtest

[Maxilian]

Yeah, I've been hearing that.:smallbiggrin:

I guess my big question is, is it any good? I don't think it's going to change my choice of archetype for my monk, but I would really like to know. People always say 4 element monk sucks, is this any better?

Yes, its good, don't have all the extras of the Way of the Hand but you got a nice range attack (something most monks can't say) and you only lose a possible bonus action attack and after you get the bonus action Burning hands your damage will increase quite a bit, and yes... is way better than 4 elements monks

[Estralita]

Do the ranged attacks work with Stunning Strike?

[Maxilian]

Do the ranged attacks work with Stunning Strike?

Nope, it have to be a melee weapon attack

[Monkplayer]

Range attacks has always been a weakness with my monks, but maybe this archetype will help solve that?

[BladeWing81]

Some concerns I have is that the ranged attack can only use dexterity where as the Martial arts ability states that you can use Dexterity or Strength on you attacks making the gauntlets of ogre strength or any of the belts go-to for all the monks to improve their damage which won't work with this archetype on the range attacks.

the second is that the last ability is just waaay to weak, by level 17 you might have 20 wisdom which will make the damage 10 radiant damage but it only happens once per turn because it uses your reaction, Was it too much to ask to have the damage scalable or maybe use my reaction but add ki points to get some dies in there? would it have broken the game to add: "as a reaction you may spend 1 ki point to deal 2D6 + Wis you may spend up to 3 ki this way to add additional 1d6 to the damage" (Max is 4d6 + Wis) at lvl 17 that's nothing compared to other class abilities and you still use it once with your reaction.

what feats are being recommended for this archetype? sharpshooter? battle Mage? spell sniper? or is the monk still boned in that department? Alert, Mobile, skilled, skulker or GTFO

[Maxilian]

Some concerns I have is that the ranged attack can only use dexterity where as the Martial arts ability states that you can use Dexterity or Strength on you attacks making the gauntlets of ogre strength or any of the belts go-to for all the monks to improve their damage which won't work with this archetype on the range attacks.

True, but that's not bad, its just something... (i'm pretty sure some other items would work with this only because its a Range Spell Attack)



the second is that the last ability is just waaay to weak, by level 17 you might have 20 wisdom which will make the damage 10 radiant damage but it only happens once per turn because it uses your reaction, Was it too much to ask to have the damage scalable or maybe use my reaction but add ki points to get some dies in there? would it have broken the game to add: "as a reaction you may spend 1 ki point to deal 2D6 + Wis you may spend up to 3 ki this way to add additional 1d6 to the damage" (Max is 4d6 + Wis) at lvl 17 that's nothing compared to other class abilities and you still use it once with your reaction.


I don't agree, i'm ok with it, the lvl 17 is more for flavor than anything IMHO, and the main point of this ability is... that it does the damage... plain an simple, no chance to miss, not anything... you just do 10 damage (Normally 1 weapon attack would do 7 or 9 damage more -I'm comparing it to an OA)



what feats are being recommended for this archetype? sharpshooter? battle Mage? spell sniper? or is the monk still boned in that department? Alert, Mobile, skilled, skulker or GTFO

Check my post above, i pointed out with what it works and with what it doesn't

[Coyote81]

You can use the new fighting style from UA-Light in the Dark (If you take a level of fighter) to gain Close Quarters Shooting. It will let you fire those sun lances at targets within 5ft without disadvantage, also gives you +1 to hit and ignores cover of targets withing 30ft. Pretty good bonus for Sun Soul monks, imo.

[Maxilian]

You can use the new fighting style from UA-Light in the Dark (If you take a level of fighter) to gain Close Quarters Shooting. It will let you fire those sun lances at targets within 5ft without disadvantage, also gives you +1 to hit and ignores cover of targets withing 30ft. Pretty good bonus for Sun Soul monks, imo.

Yes, it works pretty well, you're basically getting what you would get out of Crossbow expert and Spell Sniper from only 1 place with an extra +1

[Yorrin]

You can use the new fighting style from UA-Light in the Dark (If you take a level of fighter) to gain Close Quarters Shooting. It will let you fire those sun lances at targets within 5ft without disadvantage, also gives you +1 to hit and ignores cover of targets withing 30ft. Pretty good bonus for Sun Soul monks, imo.

...
I just realized that this isn't just for weapon attacks, unlike Archery style. I really hope this sees print.:smallbiggrin:

[Maxilian]

...
I just realized that this isn't just for weapon attacks, unlike Archery style. I really hope this sees print.:smallbiggrin:

Oh god, now i realize what this really mean!!!, this is going to be troublesome.... i hope it doesn't (well... it would be a buff for EK who decide to go more blaster with their cantrips)

But... expect more Fighter / Caster MC (i dislike this cause this is going to make some feats a little less.... interesting -i mean you're getting 2 things of 2 different feats plus a +1 in hit >.>)

[MaxWilson]

So, I've seen a bunch of discussion of Bladesingers, and Long Death Monks, but not the new archetype I'm actually hoping to play. So maybe we can change that.

I don't own SCAG just yet, I have to wait about a month for Birthdays and Christmas to roll around but I am interested in playing it. What are people's thought on the archetype anyway? Good? Bad? NBD?

Weak. On par with elemental monk, way behind Shadow/Death, somewhat behind Open Hand.

Best thing about it is radiant 8d6 Fireball for 3 ki. Elemental Monk pays four ki for that. Also, fire vs radiant and save-for-half vs. save-for-none, but they're still comparable. It's not bad, but unless you're in a campaign where armies of 11 HP mooks in close formation are ubiquitous, its impact will be limited, and redundant with a wizard anyway. If you WERE going to spend your whole life fighting Tucker's kobolds, no-ki 2d6 Fireball would of course be awesome.

At-will fear and Mastery of Death are far more powerful than ranged attacks on a class that can already use missile weapons, often including long bows since Wood Elves are popular monks. Sun Soul is marginally better at ranged combat than base monk but the subclass still has a high opportunity cost.

[Maxilian]

Weak. On par with elemental monk, way behind Shadow/Death, somewhat behind Open Hand.

I would say that its better than Elemental monk, but i actually think is more on par with Shadow (they add a lot of things, but none of them are OMFG!, they are just cool, the same with Sun monk), Open hand is way better than Shadow monk... just saying (Death is pretty good, that fear... its quite good and lets not talk about the lvl 11 ability)

[MaxWilson]

Without getting into a fight over Shadow Monks, let's just say that in Combat As War scenarios they are with their weight in gold and I miss them in any party which doesn't have room for one. PWT five to ten times per short rest is pure gold for the whole party. Darkness is powerful too.

[Grey Watcher]

...

At lvl 11, you get the ability to cast an orb of light [that] doesn-t cost Ki Points.

...

I realize that Laser Monk is considered underpowered as is, but it struck me as weird that this ability can be used at will. Whether that's good, bad, or indifferent, it feels inconsistent with the way most abilities are budgeted (eg, damaging, multi-target attacks generally have some kind of limitation on them, whether it be X-times per rest, consumes spell slots, consumes ki points, or whatever).

[Maxilian]

Without getting into a fight over Shadow Monks, let's just say that in Combat As War scenarios they are with their weight in gold and I miss them in any party which doesn't have room for one. PWT five to ten times per short rest is pure gold for the whole party. Darkness is powerful too.

Well... there's no fight over this, i totally agree that PWT is great but i don't think those things put the Sun Monk in that position, in the end..., the Sun monks also get their good things, they get a burning hands as bonus action, -they give you a weak cantrip at lvl 11 (cost only an action no Ki points), but that cantrip can be improved with a ki point (use 1 ki point and you're making 4d6, use 2 and you're getting 6d6 for 2 ki points, and 3 -the max quantity you can use- and you're making 8d6 in an area of 20 feet) giving you a good way to deal with hordes of enemies

Note: The Sun Monk, is really good against hordes of enemies, burning hands + Searing Sunburst give you a really nice AoE damage

[Maxilian]

I realize that Laser Monk is considered underpowered as is, but it struck me as weird that this ability can be used at will. Whether that's good, bad, or indifferent, it feels inconsistent with the way most abilities are budgeted (eg, damaging, multi-target attacks generally have some kind of limitation on them, whether it be X-times per rest, consumes spell slots, consumes ki points, or whatever).

It does less damage than most cantrips (unless you spend ki points) and if you miss you get nothing (just like a normal cantrip), so not going to be a problem.

Note: There are some cantrips that are also AOE (the only advantage of this one is the range)

By lvl 11 any damage cantrip would do 3 dice of its type (3d6 firebolt, 3d6 Thunderclap, 3d8 Bonfire, etc...)

[Grey Watcher]

It does less damage than most cantrips (unless you spend ki points) and if you miss you get nothing (just like a normal cantrip), so not going to be a problem.

Note: There are some cantrips that are also AOE (the only advantage of this one is the range)

By lvl 11 any damage cantrip would do 3 dice of its type (3d6 firebolt, 3d6 Thunderclap, 3d8 Bonfire, etc...)

Like I said, it's not so much that it seems overpowered as just... odd. I hadn't had a chance to compare it to the cantrip damage progression, so it does indeed check out. Still feels weird somehow. :smallconfused:

[georgie_leech]

Like I said, it's not so much that it seems overpowered as just... odd. I hadn't had a chance to compare it to the cantrip damage progression, so it does indeed check out. Still feels weird somehow. :smallconfused:

I think it's the fact that it's unusual to get a higher level magical-ish ability that's at will. Most of the abilities in the game that you get past Level 1 are either Passive abilities that just work in circumstance X, are for out of combat (e.g. Barbarians being able to cast Speak With Animals), or have limited uses.

[AstralFire]

IDK -- I feel like criticisms of laser monk are being a little too grounded in 3.x to downplay the effectiveness of fighting groups so much. I mean, sure, I'll agree that it is not the best possible path for a Monk -- but putting it on par with Way of Full-to-Empty-in-4-rounds is a bit much.

[Zalabim]

The comparable ability to brightball is the Hunter's Volley ability, to give you a better idea of the comparison.

[Mechaviking]

All I could think about when reading the sun soul monk was DRAGON BALL Z! now just find a way to fly, dye your hair blond and you're a super saiyan


At lvl 17 you get an aura of light (30-f radius bright light and dim light for another 30) can put it on or off as a Bonus action, if you are hit while you have this aura on, you can use your reaction to deal radiant damage (5 + WIS Mod), have in mind... that you DEAL 5 + WIS, so save, no AC, no anything...)

Just saiyan

[Maxilian]

Just saiyan

Well... the aura of light its your KI! (still no flying for you)

[Santra]

Well... the aura of light its your KI! (still no flying for you)

They all learned to fly during downtime. They just spent that 250 days training with someone who knew how to fly without wings or spells and learned how.

[MaxWilson]

The comparable ability to brightball is the Hunter's Volley ability, to give you a better idea of the comparison.

I wish this forum had a "give XP" button. Excellent, excellent insight.

[CyberThread]

Feral winged tiefling going light ray monk, does have some strong story hooks as well as mechanics

[Vemynal]

Another race not to be discounted is the Air Gensai. +2 Con, +1 Dex, not have to breath and can cast Levitate on yourself once per long rest with no material component. Certainly less powerful than the Aarakocra but well...isn't almost everything? lol

[Dralnu]

I think the bonus action Burning Hands is being underrated here. The monk has added mobility that can be used to line up targets. It's a bit clunky that you have to Attack immediately before using it, but I can definitely see it as being much higher DPR than Flurry of Blows in the right situation. It's a good nova option for a class that recharges on a short rest.

[Zephonim]

Another race not to be discounted is the Air Gensai. +2 Con, +1 Dex, not have to breath and can cast Levitate on yourself once per long rest with no material component. Certainly less powerful than the Aarakocra but well...isn't almost everything? lol

Yeees. YEEEES. Time to become Dragonball Z

[Kane0]

Feral winged tiefling going light ray monk, does have some strong story hooks as well as mechanics

My group will be starting a new campaign tomorrow and I'll be playing exactly that. We start at 1st level, but i'll keep you posted if you like.

[BladeWing81]

My DM allowed me to change my elemental monk to Sun soul (at lvl 7) a few weeks ago and I gotta say that its been fun on a bun ever since, I make waaay more damage and way more spells with the burning hands as a bonus action. I don't have to worry about ki points so much because the radiant strikes are great to hit my targets and not engage in melee combat (very little step of the wind or patient defense needed anymore) except when I need to stun someone. Basically with the radiant sun strikes I have better mobility and survivability and with burning hands as bonus action means much more damage, more spells than 4 elements did and better utility for my group by adding a good AOE attack.

[N810]

... now just need yellow cloud of flying and staff of infinite length... :elan:

[Maxilian]

I think the bonus action Burning Hands is being underrated here. The monk has added mobility that can be used to line up targets. It's a bit clunky that you have to Attack immediately before using it, but I can definitely see it as being much higher DPR than Flurry of Blows in the right situation. It's a good nova option for a class that recharges on a short rest.

Yes, that's something i saw, the power of this subclass is not in its single target damage, he have many ways to make AOE attacks and he have the mobility to take advantage of them

[silveralen]

Yeah, I've been hearing that.:smallbiggrin:

I guess my big question is, is it any good? I don't think it's going to change my choice of archetype for my monk, but I would really like to know. People always say 4 element monk sucks, is this any better?

It's a better but more limited version. What you do have is more ki and action efficient than 4 elements. What you lack is the wider variety of abilities.

So if you wanted 4 elements mainly to toss around some cool damage spells, it's great. If you wanted 4 elements for utility... well tbh you'd be better off with shadow monk actually.

4 elements only real benefit is having a bit more variety and being able to mix combat and utility, but the sheer price tag these abilities have in ki makes that a very hard sell to me.

[BladeWing81]

... now just need yellow cloud of flying and staff of infinite length... :elan:
we already have the super saiyan aura at lvl 17. so yeah

[Seruvius]

A mate of mine in a campaign is playing a Sun Soul. He uses it in a pretty useful way: being a really nasty skirmisher. He is a Wood elf(what a surprise) Sun soul monk and the campaign so far has had a lot of wilderness exploration. He uses his high movement, good stealth and wood elf hiding ability to scout for our group and if he does get into trouble can mostly just keep running rings around the enemy, or just run back to use pinging away on the retreat.
In a forest setting he is nasty. Runs out, pings, runs back into cover somewhere. Repeat. Currently thinking of MC into rogue for the cunning action hide ability.

[BladeWing81]

A mate of mine in a campaign is playing a Sun Soul. He uses it in a pretty useful way: being a really nasty skirmisher. He is a Wood elf(what a surprise) Sun soul monk and the campaign so far has had a lot of wilderness exploration. He uses his high movement, good stealth and wood elf hiding ability to scout for our group and if he does get into trouble can mostly just keep running rings around the enemy, or just run back to use pinging away on the retreat.
In a forest setting he is nasty. Runs out, pings, runs back into cover somewhere. Repeat. Currently thinking of MC into rogue for the cunning action hide ability.
That sound awesome! will he take two or three levels in rogue? if three which subclass does he want to take? trickster seems like a good idea since it allows him to have some good cantrips, the new lightning lure and sword burst seem like a great fit for the sun soul monk, and if your DM allows it you could even have the greenflame or the booming blade cantrips.

[Rajah]

So you do a melee attack before you cast burning hands? I was wondering if that is what that wording meant. If you can do you melee attack(s) and then ALSO cast burning hands, that seems really powerful.

So RAW, burning hands is a bonus action?

[Kane0]

2 ki for burning hands as bonus action, compared to 2 unarmed strikes as bonus action for 1 ki using flurry of blows.

[Foxhound438]

You can use the new fighting style from UA-Light in the Dark (If you take a level of fighter) to gain Close Quarters Shooting. It will let you fire those sun lances at targets within 5ft without disadvantage, also gives you +1 to hit and ignores cover of targets withing 30ft. Pretty good bonus for Sun Soul monks, imo.

where do you find that?

[Foxhound438]

It does less damage than most cantrips (unless you spend ki points)

and with ki points you're on par with eldritch blast, and you can do that ~17 times per short rest. before L17 you have more damage, since EB is still at 3 blasts, but you get 4 lasers from level 5.

[Foxhound438]

Another race not to be discounted is the Air Gensai. +2 Con, +1 Dex, not have to breath and can cast Levitate on yourself once per long rest with no material component. Certainly less powerful than the Aarakocra but well...isn't almost everything? lol

hehe 50 feet of flying speed plus monk speed, spam free kamehameha from above until everything dies. so weak, shadow monk such better

[Gwendol]

where do you find that?
You'll find all the UA stuff on WotC homepage.

[MaxWilson]

and with ki points you're on par with eldritch blast, and you can do that ~17 times per short rest. before L17 you have more damage, since EB is still at 3 blasts, but you get 4 lasers from level 5.

Eldritch Blast qua Eldritch Blast is kind of a mediocre use of your action economy though, even with Agonizing Blast on top. Where Eldritch Blast shines is when you start adding in riders, whether that is long range Eldritch Spear to get multiple rounds of free hits while the enemy is approaching (doesn't apply to Sun Soul) or Hex for an extra 1d6 per hit or Repelling Blast + Wall of Fire to add 5d8 damage per hit as you knock them through the flaming wall (or off a cliff for up to 20d6). Until level 11, Eldritch Blast qua Eldritch Blast is barely even any better than a warrior with a longbow. (2x d10+5 instead of 2x d8+5, worse range).

In short, "I can spend ki to be competitive with un-Hexed Eldritch Blast at short range" is not, in and of itself, very impressive.

[Zalabim]

Up to level 10, the sun bolts (using Ki) are dealing more damage than EB with Hex, but with less range/utility. It's also less damage and utility than just walking up and whacking them with everymonk melee. Kind of a reverse of the pact of the blade situation. As a positive, the monk has better defenses and isn't shut down by concentration saves or melee.

[StiXFletcher]

I'm currently playing as a Sun Soul Monk (3)/Light Cleric (1) and loving it. It may just be that I am in a party of other sub-optimal characters (I'm quite new to D&D so I have no idea) but I never feel underpowered at all.
My party is currently a Paladin, Sorcerer, Rouge and Fighter (are any of these great/ terrible?).

[RickAllison]

I currently have a Shadow Sorc 1/Undying Light 3/Sun Soul 3, an Aarakocra disciple of Amaunator (my DM let the UL bonus to radiant damage apply since it is a ranged spell attack, same with Spell Sniper if I ever get that). I play him as pseudo-knockouthobo as he cares little for the laws of a land he has brokered no covenant with (which is why he now has almost twice the GP of the rest of the party, unknown to them...). However, he comes down harshly on any who would break a deal, even if he was not otherwise involved; binding agreements are sacred to the sun god. He's a blast to play, though excepting the UL/Sun Soul synergy it is far from optimal.

[Carlos Barreto]

My real problem with Sun Soul Monk is that it makes me feel like WotC will never fix the Elemental Monk, despite the fact that they said something would be done in the future. The Sun Soul Monk is so similar to the Elemental Monk (although less versatile, let's say) that if they fix the Elemental Monk, then the Sun Soul Monk would be the new ugly duckling.

[BladeWing81]

My real problem with Sun Soul Monk is that it makes me feel like WotC will never fix the Elemental Monk, despite the fact that they said something would be done in the future. The Sun Soul Monk is so similar to the Elemental Monk (although less versatile, let's say) that if they fix the Elemental Monk, then the Sun Soul Monk would be the new ugly duckling.

I've had the thought that the sun soul monk IS the elemental monk fix since both are a spell oriented subclasses for the monk, less versatile but way more useful. this discussion has been had in the past and I still believe that the best fix for the elemental monk (the second one being a fix for the whole class in general) is:
-Add 2 more spells: (also maybe include some of the spells from the elemental evil supplement) when taking the subclass.
-Add Ki points based on your Wisdom modifier: that way at lvl 3 you probably have 16 Wis (+3 wis modifier) which would translate to 6 ki points. with that in mind not only would your elemental spells have more ki to spend but also it would make it viable for the player to choose taking +2 Wis on the ASI levels to get 5 extra ki points. by level 8 your Maximum Ki count would be 13!!

[Tanarii]

Elemental Monks are fine in terms of Ki costs. They're approximately equivalent to 1/2 casters who regenerate on a SR, assuming they only use Ki for spells. However, it's more likely they were balanced as 1/3 casters, under the assumption they'd use some of the Ki for non-spellcasting.

For comparison, EK/AT would have the following Ki for spellcasting per SR (assuming standard 2 SR / adventuring day:
Level 3 | 1-1/3 Ki
Level 4-6 | 2 Ki
Level 7-9 | 4-2/3 Ki
Level 10-12 | 5-2/3 Ki
Level 13-15 | 8-1/3 Ki
Level 16-18 | 9 Ki
Level 19-20 | 10-2/3 Ki

So you can see, an EleMonk is expected to be able to spend about half his Ki on non-spell effects (flurry, etc etc), and still be on par with their 1/3 caster equivalents.

Where Elemental Monks are lacking is in flexibility. 1/3 casters (EK/AT) get more than half the known spells of a full caster (13 vs ~22). EleMonks get a elemental cantrip + 4 "spells".

[MeeposFire]

Elemental Monks are fine in terms of Ki costs. They're approximately equivalent to 1/2 casters who regenerate on a SR, assuming they only use Ki for spells. However, it's more likely they were balanced as 1/3 casters, under the assumption they'd use some of the Ki for non-spellcasting.

For comparison, EK/AT would have the following Ki for spellcasting per SR (assuming standard 2 SR / adventuring day:
Level 3 | 1-1/3 Ki
Level 4-6 | 2 Ki
Level 7-9 | 4-2/3 Ki
Level 10-12 | 5-2/3 Ki
Level 13-15 | 8-1/3 Ki
Level 16-18 | 9 Ki
Level 19-20 | 10-2/3 Ki

So you can see, an EleMonk is expected to be able to spend about half his Ki on non-spell effects (flurry, etc etc), and still be on par with their 1/3 caster equivalents.

Where Elemental Monks are lacking is in flexibility. 1/3 casters (EK/AT) get more than half the known spells of a full caster (13 vs ~22). EleMonks get a elemental cantrip + 4 "spells".

On top of this what I think elemental monks are missing are actual class features to go with the spells. EKs and ATs get class features on top of their spells (even at level 3 when they first get them) but elemental monks do not. THis is even more noticeable because using your elemental spells decrease your ability to use your other monk abilities while the other caster options do not affect their normal class abilities at all.

E monks need more passive abilities to augment their caster abilities. If they received some cool and useful passive abilities then I think they would be fine. Then the spells would be looked at as useful niche abilities and not the only thing that they bring to the table. I also kind of wish that they thought up some more elemental flavored cantrips to use for the monk as well.

EDIT: For instance what if they got the ability to use martial arts or flurry as a bonus action after casting a "spell". Give them access to some flavorful cantrips and you could be using things like green flame blade or firebolt and then following up with a punch or two. It would make the elemental monk much better and would make it the damage oriented sub class for monks.

[Tanarii]

On top of this what I think elemental monks are missing are actual class features to go with the spells. EKs and ATs get class features on top of their spells (even at level 3 when they first get them) but elemental monks do not. THis is even more noticeable because using your elemental spells decrease your ability to use your other monk abilities while the other caster options do not affect their normal class abilities at all.That's true, but different classes have different balance between total power of features embedded in the class and total power of features embedded in the sub-class. And Monk sub-classes decrease their ability to use their other monk abilities in the process of using their subclass abilities. (Note: said without refereing to PHB for open-hand monk, and granted shadow monk has some Ki-free abilities)

The question for the designers became: How do we make a 1/3 Casting monk, while also balancing X amount of Ki being spent on non-subclass abilities, and Y amount on sub-class abilities, and having all remain approximately the same overall balance. Clearly their assumption was that X = 1/2 Ki spent on non-subclass abilities, and 1/3 casting = Y, therefore nothing was left over for other sub-class abilities.

Personally, when I first read the PHB, my eyes bugged out at how much AWESOME the Elemental Monk gets compared to the Shadow Monk, which struck me as thoroughly meh, both uninteresting and underpowered. Even after taking a close look and seeing where ShMonks are actually fairly powerful and EleMonks are a little weak, I still prefer EleMonk.

[MaxWilson]

Personally, when I first read the PHB, my eyes bugged out at how much AWESOME the Elemental Monk gets compared to the Shadow Monk, which struck me as thoroughly meh, both uninteresting and underpowered. Even after taking a close look and seeing where ShMonks are actually fairly powerful and EleMonks are a little weak, I still prefer EleMonk.

Out of curiosity, what kind of awesome was making your eyes bug out? Was it the Fireballs and Stoneskin, or something else?

[DracoKnight]

So I have a player who's playing a Sun Soul in my game, and honestly he's doing ranged DPR that beats the Archers at times. We're at level 15 (they level up next session) and let me tell you, at higher levels, you stack range on top of the Monk's godly features...holy crap you have a powerful character.

They're even less MAD than the other Monks. Their Radiant Strikes key off of DEX/STR instead of WIS, so you really only need DEX/STR and CON. YES WIS still is great because of AC, but if you have a +2 WIS and a +5 DEX you're at 17 AC, which is the best that most archer types can get. Add in proficiency in all saves...oh holy crap. He's enjoying it.

[MeeposFire]

That's true, but different classes have different balance between total power of features embedded in the class and total power of features embedded in the sub-class. And Monk sub-classes decrease their ability to use their other monk abilities in the process of using their subclass abilities. (Note: said without refereing to PHB for open-hand monk, and granted shadow monk has some Ki-free abilities)

The question for the designers became: How do we make a 1/3 Casting monk, while also balancing X amount of Ki being spent on non-subclass abilities, and Y amount on sub-class abilities, and having all remain approximately the same overall balance. Clearly their assumption was that X = 1/2 Ki spent on non-subclass abilities, and 1/3 casting = Y, therefore nothing was left over for other sub-class abilities.

Personally, when I first read the PHB, my eyes bugged out at how much AWESOME the Elemental Monk gets compared to the Shadow Monk, which struck me as thoroughly meh, both uninteresting and underpowered. Even after taking a close look and seeing where ShMonks are actually fairly powerful and EleMonks are a little weak, I still prefer EleMonk.

You do a really good job of deconstructing your own argument. You essentially say that E monks look like they have good things but then later you are seeing they are not that great. You say that monks have abilities that require use of ki and therefor cost your normal abilities but then mention that the other two monks have abilities (useful abilities mind you) that do not use your ki or piggy back on other uses of ki.

Considering balance of a sub class to its own parent class consider this. Rogue and fighter spell casters get spells as an additional resource that does not require an expenditure of their innate abilities to use AND get passive abilities from their sub class on top of getting spells. E monks get far less as they have to choose from a much smaller list (this would be fair if everything else did not hurt so much) to use resources that take from your normal abilities (ki), no additional resources to compensate, and only get one flavorful cantrip as the only extra ability. Looking at what a monk gets from the other sub classes and what other classes get in a similar situation it seems to me that E monks get the short end of the stick and I do think the numbers show it. Personally I think the problem comes from a lack of class features to augment their powers (like every other monk and sub class gets) rather than just the casting itself (which some other people may assert).


This gets even worse if you use the errata. With that they have managed to take some of the cooler abilities down a peg and they were already more niche that OP to begin with (water whip as a bonus action had uses and stone skin earlier was more helpful as it is now too close to just using empty body which is just better).

[Tanarii]

You do a really good job of deconstructing your own argument.I was. It was intentional. Because you're potentially right. It may be that they aren't balanced vs non-EleMonk sub-classes that get Ki-free features.

My main point was EleMonks clearly do what they are designed to do: 1/3-caster, if you assume 1/2 available Ki should be spent on base-Monk abilities.

They get less "spells" flexibility compared to non-Monk 1/3-casters. On the flip-side, they get more useful and scaling Ki-costing options than other monk sub-classes, giving them comparative flexibility and scaling power. On the flip-flip-side, they only get Elemental Attunement as their non-Ki effect.

Edit: highlighted my main point for why I chimed in. Because I tend to get lost in the back and forth.

[Tanarii]

Out of curiosity, what kind of awesome was making your eyes bug out? Was it the Fireballs and Stoneskin, or something else?Effectively, scaling 1/3-caster spellcasting. I overvalue that compared to the power it grants. It made me over value EKs and ATs relative to the other respective sub-classes too.

Strangely, I highly undervalued the spells the ShMonk gets. (Except Minor Illusion, but I didn't understand it's limitations at first.)

[MaxWilson]

Effectively, scaling 1/3-caster spellcasting. I overvalue that compared to the power it grants. It made me over value EKs and ATs relative to the other respective sub-classes too.

Strangely, I highly undervalued the spells the ShMonk gets. (Except Minor Illusion, but I didn't understand it's limitations at first.)

Thanks for explaining. Are there patterns in the kinds of spells you pick for your EKs and ATs? AoE DPR spells? Disabling spells? Maybe that will explain the Shadow Monk thing too.

When I first played 5E, I didn't value Shadow Monk spells at all. Then I realized how awesome Pass Without Trace is. Then I realized Darkness + Alert is cheaper than Patient Defense and doesn't cost your bonus action every round, in addition to the other benefits of Alert. Then I realized Silence is useful in CaW (prevent guards from calling for help, etc.) and is a no-save half-disable on enemy spellcasters (I mean, I knew you could use it against spellcasters, it just hadn't fully penetrated my skull how well Silence synergizes with Prone or grapple from a second PC). Then I realized that Minor Illusion can be used to make loud noises like a booming "Surrender or die!" without the Shadow Monk needing to blow out her own lungs. At this point I am completely happy with the Shadow Monk spell list.

[Panzerjess]

I actually play a sun soul fire genasi monk, so when i plan to go into sun soul mode i take advantage of fire genasi flavour text that makes it so you flare up when angered and such to make my fire genasi's hair (which is fire) blue aka super sayian super blue, which is possible since he is a bartender by trade so he naturally has an affinity with alcohol that produces blue flame.

[Citan]

Yeah, I've been hearing that.:smallbiggrin:

I guess my big question is, is it any good? I don't think it's going to change my choice of archetype for my monk, but I would really like to know. People always say 4 element monk sucks, is this any better?
Hi!

1. 4E don't suck. People who say this just never tried to play it past level 7 or so (the first levels do feel harsher on Ki management than other archetypes).
(I won't redo the same demonstration here because it's pointless with many people of the forum. If you want more information on how good 4e can be, you can look for threads about it. ;))

2. Sun Soul is not necessarily better, it's rather more focused on giving you small, focused AOEs. If all you were interested in with 4e was this, then Sun Soul is definitely better since you get better action economy overall for Burning Hands and a nice mid-level radiant AOE.
If you wanted versatility, then 4e would be better.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: No thread necromancy please.