Player's Companion - Weapon Master's Handbook

[Triskavanski]

Yesterday, I got my email for the shipping of the new Weapon Master book, and there is some stuff in there I'd really want to talk about but I really don't know if its considered a faux pa to talk about the stuff inside the book before it comes out for non-subscribers.

[Psyren]

Anytime you want, just avoid posting any of the content word for word and you should be good. You can even answer questions such as "Anything cool in there for Monks?"

[Triskavanski]

Excellent.

Awesome stuff I saw, is weapon mastery feats for fighters. The feat gives the character some bonuses based on weapon training, one of which allows the fighter to select a few skills to replace the ranks with their BAB.

Whats more is the feat is a combat feat, eligible for Martial Flexibility. Then there is Martial focus which gives 'weapon training' to any class. Not in its true fighter form, but in the form that gives a very minor bonus to a group, but allows you to be eligible for that Weapon Mastery feat.



A bad thing I saw though was an archtype of fighter than loses weapon training, weapon Mastery, armor training, and hand ful of feats for Martial flex (as brawler), and the Master of Many styles ability (sort of) of blending two or more styles together.

Just kinda seems to me as a waste



And lastly, one more bit of awesome, there is a start of something that could make gnome tinkerers /very/ happy. A section in the back that has the ability to construct new weapons using design points.



All in all the book is just crammed full of so much stuff, I had to go back and look at previous companion books to see if it just has more pages or what. Same number of pages, but each page is just packed with fightery goodness.

[Florian]

Yesterday, I got my email for the shipping of the new Weapon Master book, and there is some stuff in there I'd really want to talk about but I really don't know if its considered a faux pa to talk about the stuff inside the book before it comes out for non-subscribers.

Those books are part of the regular OGL as far as that concerns the rules parts. The setting parts concerning Golarion-specific stuff is not.
So, you can always talk anout the rules, whenever you want to.

[Psyren]

Awesome stuff I saw, is weapon mastery feats for fighters. The feat gives the character some bonuses based on weapon training, one of which allows the fighter to select a few skills to replace the ranks with their BAB.

That does sound nice - a decent patch to help Fighters get out of the 2+Int slump.

Anything in there related to Stamina?

[Triskavanski]

They've got about 2-3 pages adding in more combat tricks for feats in the player's companions. Nothing from Dirty Tactics tool box though.

A whole new slew of fighting styles too. Including Equipment tricks, (One of my favorite designs of feats) that add varirty in fighting styles. Like every single single weapon style you'd have.
equipment tricks for One handed, Polearm, Ranged, two handed, two weapon and weapon & shield.
different racial fighting styles. fighting styles of different gods, Ranged weapon styles, melee weapon styles.

[Psyren]

They've got about 2-3 pages adding in more combat tricks for feats in the player's companions. Nothing from Dirty Tactics tool box though.

Nice. Always glad to see Unchained getting more support. I'll definitely be grabbing this one.

[Triskavanski]

Yeah, I'd totally recommend it if you're thinking of a character who would come into contact with weapons, be it through use of them or being hurt by them.

I'm going to have to go through this book more for my dirty fighter's handbook.

[Triskavanski]

Well, there is a intresting fighting style in the book. When you first pick it up, you can take a full round action to ready two ranged attacks, each with their own trigger. Then the next feat lets you do it as a standard. And the last one allows you to do four as a full round action.

So my idea, is to make a character who has a repeating crossbow, or a perhaps a normal crossbow he can reload for free. They take those ready actions, in order to get all mexican standoffin

I think this could make a crossbow fighter actually.. somewhat desireable.

[Eldaran]

Well, there is a intresting fighting style in the book. When you first pick it up, you can take a full round action to ready two ranged attacks, each with their own trigger. Then the next feat lets you do it as a standard. And the last one allows you to do four as a full round action.

That sounds extremely good as an anti-spellcaster tactic. Usually you can ready against one spell, but a follow up quicken gets by uninterrupted. And readying 4 attacks sounds amazing, though I imagine it requires at least 16 BAB and uses iteratives?

[Triskavanski]

Actually, you'd get the full ability at earlier than that, and its four for a full round action, 2 for a standard action.

[Sir Chuckles]

And lastly, one more bit of awesome, there is a start of something that could make gnome tinkerers /very/ happy. A section in the back that has the ability to construct new weapons using design points.

How's the balance on this? Is it like Racial Point, where it's trivial to build something very clearly absurd, but because it has no frills it's considered low points? A bit better than that? A bit worse?

And are there any actual weapons and other equipment released? I like seeing new swords so I can add to the list of thing Tengu get as proficiencies.

[Triskavanski]

A few magic items, like a fighting cup, and item crafting.

As for balance, I don't know

[Molosse]

How's the balance on this? Is it like Racial Point, where it's trivial to build something very clearly absurd, but because it has no frills it's considered low points? A bit better than that? A bit worse?

And are there any actual weapons and other equipment released? I like seeing new swords so I can add to the list of thing Tengu get as proficiencies.

Stuff like the Elven Curved Blade completely blows through point balance and ends up, using the rules within, a damn sight higher points than anything you could build. It's alright for what it does.

As an aside, and not mentioned yet, a big add-in was the addition of Weapon Styles similar to Unarmed Styles already in the game, haven't looked over them all yet but from what I've seen it's a damn sight better than just +'s to hit/damage, instead promoting different play-styles.

[Greenfeuer]

Yesterday, I got my email for the shipping of the new Weapon Master book, and there is some stuff in there I'd really want to talk about but I really don't know if its considered a faux pa to talk about the stuff inside the book before it comes out for non-subscribers.

Anything on a Halfling slings user or a sling master? :)

[Kurald Galain]

Any new Magus archetypes or arcana?

[Triskavanski]

None, achetypes are
1 Ranger
1 Warpriest
1 Swashbuckler
1 Paladin
2 fighter

However, the Mennarche Archetype on virtue of having weapon training, does have a lot of new options to choose from.

[Triskavanski]

Anything on a Halfling slings user or a sling master? :)

A whole fighting style dedicated to that, along with some other generic ranged based things.

[Greenfeuer]

A whole fighting style dedicated to that, along with some other generic ranged based things.

Nice! Can you maybe throw me some info in a private message? Would be a big help since I got a roleplay coming up where I need my Halfling Slingmaster ready ^^

Is there any new type of halfling ranger?

[9mm]

anything for my crane-wing using swordlord?

[Prime32]

So apparently there's some feats with the fighter's Weapon Training class feature as a prereq, which function only for the chosen weapon group(s):

One lets you make an opposed attack roll against ranged attacks to negate them... as an AoO. It also has a followup feat which extends that to ray spells and massive weapons, a la Exceptional Deflection.

Another causes thrown weapons to return to your hand instantly after each attack, letting you full attack with them.


Also there are magic weapon enchantments that let you create earthquakes (AoE combat maneuvers) and sword beams.

[stack]

Sounds like some cool, much needed stuff. Of course, if these things had been in Ultimate Combat instead of things like prone shooter I may not have moved all my attention to 3rd party materials.

[Triskavanski]

That ability to deflect ranged attacks, has another follow up feat to sometimes use your BAB as your saving throw on a pretty good number of spells.

[Psyren]

Sounds like some cool, much needed stuff. Of course, if these things had been in Ultimate Combat instead of things like prone shooter I may not have moved all my attention to 3rd party materials.

Prone Shooter received errata a few months ago and is actually pretty decent now. Also, Unchained has plenty of goodies for martials, plus we've had Melee Tactics Toolbox, Ranged Tactics Toolbox and Dirty Tactics Toolbox since then, all with nice toys of their own for martials. (For example, a weapon enhancement that finally lets archers deal with wind spells, a feat that lets you be treated as flanking foes by yourself, a feat that lets dumb characters take Combat Expertise and all dependent feats etc.)

[khadgar567]

That ability to deflect ranged attacks, has another follow up feat to sometimes use your BAB as your saving throw on a pretty good number of spells.

hell even getting ability to use sword beam on annoying wizard from decent range is worth several feats(a focus + that feat =yakkodori of roronoa zoro)

[stack]

Prone Shooter received errata a few months ago and is actually pretty decent now. Also, Unchained has plenty of goodies for martials, plus we've had Melee Tactics Toolbox, Ranged Tactics Toolbox and Dirty Tactics Toolbox since then, all with nice toys of their own for martials. (For example, a weapon enhancement that finally lets archers deal with wind spells, a feat that lets you be treated as flanking foes by yourself, a feat that lets dumb characters take Combat Expertise and all dependent feats etc.)

I know there is some good stuff in the recent releases, but it took awhile.

And prone shooter should never have made it past editing. I know they errata'd it. Well, not so much errata as replacing it entirely with a feat that happens to have the same name.

[Greenfeuer]

Ordered the book from pazio! But haven't got the pre pdf yet! I really need info on the sling / halfling feat /class or what it is ^^

[Greenfeuer]

Had to cancel it for the PDF version who only comes out the 18th of november... DAMNIT xD Need the book deeply now!

[Arutema]

Anything on a Halfling slings user or a sling master? :)

A new style that, at last, allows you to reload a slingstaff as a free action and reload slings without provoking with the first feat. Later feats in the chain focus on throwing around alchemical weapons with your sling.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That last part is a pretty good one. Seems like it would be fun for alchemists, or at least if there was one in the party.

[animewatcha]

The weapon style feats. Do they have the 'Style' tag on them? As in a Master of Many Styles can take them as bonus feats?

[Tuvarkz]

The weapon style feats. Do they have the 'Style' tag on them? As in a Master of Many Styles can take them as bonus feats?

I believe so, but because the normal style feats can only be used with unarmed strikes, it means you are going to need a weapon with at least two weapon groups if you want to get something out of the weapon style feats.

[Psyren]

I believe so, but because the normal style feats can only be used with unarmed strikes, it means you are going to need a weapon with at least two weapon groups if you want to get something out of the weapon style feats.

While most of the style feat chains are indeed designed for unarmed strikes, several of the individual feats can be used with weapons (even if they have IUS as a prerequisite.) For example, Wolf Style and Wolf Trip can be used with any weapon, though you need unarmed strike or a natural weapon to use Wolf Savage.

But the other trick is that style feats are all combat feats, so you can use Martial Versatility and Feral Combat Training to open up your weapon choices with most of them.

The only style that completely shuts out everything except unarmed strikes entirely is Pummeling Style.

[Tuvarkz]

While most of the style feat chains are indeed designed for unarmed strikes, several of the individual feats can be used with weapons (even if they have IUS as a prerequisite.) For example, Wolf Style and Wolf Trip can be used with any weapon, though you need unarmed strike or a natural weapon to use Wolf Savage.

But the other trick is that style feats are all combat feats, so you can use Martial Versatility and Feral Combat Training to open up your weapon choices with most of them.

The only style that completely shuts out everything except unarmed strikes entirely is Pummeling Style.

Oh, that I did not know. By the way, thoughts on the new racial style feats? I've found the Dwarf one to be awesome, the Elf and Orc to be good but not that great, and the Gnome one just seems utterly underwhelming.

[Psyren]

Oh, that I did not know. By the way, thoughts on the new racial style feats? I've found the Dwarf one to be awesome, the Elf and Orc to be good but not that great, and the Gnome one just seems utterly underwhelming.

Not sure which ones you mean - if they're in this book, I won't have it until the 18th when non-subscribers can get it.

[Triskavanski]

The thing that kinda makes me sad about the dwarven style is that it also requires the defensive training racial feature.

Medium size is also a weird requirement to me. Cause if a dwarf gets bigger or smaller, he loses the effect of the style.

Obviously its to knock out the next to here.

A gnome or Svirfneblin on the other hand who has the ability to be medium sized for long enough to qualify would be able to use the style while medium sized.


And the defensive training kicks out Strix.

[Triskavanski]

Bwhaaha! Its time!

Some Awesome Gems I think


Overwatch Vortex (Combat)
You are ready to respond to many more of your foes’ actions.
Prerequisites: Overwatch Style, Overwatch Tactician, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: While using the Overwatch Style, as a Fullround action you can ready up to four ranged attacks, each with its own triggering event. You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions.


Cut from the Air (Weapon Mastery)
Your powerful and swift attacks can slice ranged attacks out of the air.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +5,
weapon training class feature with a melee weapon.
Benefit: When a ranged attack is made against you
or a target adjacent to you, you can cut the weapon (or ammunition) out of the air, def lecting the attack so the target takes no damage. As an attack of opportunity, make a melee attack roll at your highest bonus. If the result is greater than the attack roll total of the ranged attack, the attack is deflected. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by spell effects cannot be deflected.

[Tuvarkz]

Even better, the feat upgrades to Cut from the Air allow you to parry spells and heavy projectiles.

[Florian]

Even better, the feat upgrades to Cut from the Air allow you to parry spells and heavy projectiles.

Funny thing is, when you already have Missile and Ray Shield ...

[Deadkitten]

Wait....how does cut from the air interact with a kinetic blast?


Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purposeof feats such as Weapon Focus.


Unusually massive ranged weapons (such as boulders or ballista bolts) and ranged attacks generated by spell effects cannot be deflected.

Would kinetic blast count as a spell effect for this purpose?

It seems like it simultaneously qualifies and diswualifies itself from the feat.

[Psyren]

Yep, finally got it. Looking through the new style feats:

Racial Styles

Dwarven Hatred Style and Illusive Gnome Style indeed suck.

Elven Battle Style: the second feat kinda kicks ass - Int to damage, no qualifiers other than the type of weapon you use. Elven Battle Torrent is kinda meh though.

Orc Fury Style: This one's brutal, especially if you combine it with Intimidating Prowess and Shatter Defenses. Full-attack and demoralize at the same time every round is really nasty.

Slipslinger Style: This looks like it'll be fantastic on an Underground Chemist or Investigator.

Ranged Styles

Empty Quiver Style This is okay I guess. Personally I would invest feats as an archer in getting out of melee rather than in bashing enemies over the head with my bow, and archery is feat-starved as it is.

Overwatch Style: This can be used to "full-attack" with no iterative penalties if you are savvy about readying the actions (e.g. have your animal companion cough or something else you control.) It's a bit GM-dependent though and you miss out on things like haste and Manyshot.

Startoss Style: ...I'm in love. An unchained monk with this and a Rope Dart or Shuriken can do crazy amounts of damage.

Melee Styles

Ascetic Style: Style Strikes with weapons? In my Unchained Monk? *starry-eyed* Best part is you can finally ditch that dang Amulet of Mighty Fists and just wear a cestus or something. Magnificent!

Outslug Style: Whoa, 10-ft. step? And you get bonuses for doing it? You had me at hello.

Smashing Style: Sunder is better in PF but I'd rather spend my feats hitting the enemy than on hitting their armor.

Spear Dancing Style: It takes a few feats to pull off, but we finally have more 1H reach weapons - a lot more.

Swordplay Style: Sucks, just wear a buckler.


I'll keep going through the book. Advanced Weapon Training looks like the Fighter gets even more toys (for free), so I'm stoked about that.

[Deadkitten]

Can someone spoil the Gnome Style feats?

[Psyren]

Can someone spoil the Gnome Style feats?

I'm loathe to post fulltext until its in the PFSRD but here is the rundown. The gnome styles require a gnome weapon, of which there are only two in the game right now (Gnome Pincher and Gnome Hooked Hammer), and both of which suck.

Illusive Gnome Style: While feinting with a "gnome" weapon, you can sacrifice a spell slot, use of an illusion spell or one of your gnome SLAs to gain a bonus to the feint attempt = 1 + level of spell sacrificed. (If you pick a cantrip, you can't use or sac that cantrip again for 24 hours.) Requires Improved Feint, Combat Expertise, Gnome Weapon Focus, gnome magic and weapon familiarity.

Illusive Gnome Surprise: You get a static +2 on dirty trick and feint attempts while using the style and a gnome weapon. If you successfully feint a foe, instead of denying their dex bonus, you can treat your weapon as though it has one of a group of weapon properties for CHA rounds. These are: blocking, brace, disarm, distracting, performance, sunder, trip. Requires all of the above plus the style.

Illusive Gnome Bewilderment: You can choose to both deny an enemy their dex and pick a property from the list above. Alternatively, you can pick two properties.

Like I said, not worth three feats at all, nor even one. It doesn't help you feint any faster and the gnome weapons are awful to begin with.

EDIT: There is one better gnome weapon in the book itself, the Gnome Flick-Mace, which can be converted into a reach weapon and back again as a swift action and does 1d12 damage. The crit stats are weak (20/x2), but if you're dead-set on playing a gnome with a gnome weapon it's an option.

[Triskavanski]

The Empty Quiver style.. Why would you want to use that with a bow? Use it with a Pistoleer instead!

While not the most mechanically sound style, it basically gives you gun kata style.



And the Main issue with Startoss was something that was pointed out to me in my Chakarum style character, There is a lot of ways to instantly break the chain. Monk, cut from the air, etc.

[Psyren]

The Empty Quiver style.. Why would you want to use that with a bow? Use it with a Pistoleer instead!

While not the most mechanically sound style, it basically gives you gun kata style.

Isn't there already a way to "pistol whip" though, that doesn't require you to be in a specific style? Or you can just use a bayonet on your pistol. Plus Stabbing Shot doesn't work with guns anyway.



And the Main issue with Startoss was something that was pointed out to me in my Chakarum style character, There is a lot of ways to instantly break the chain. Monk, cut from the air, etc.

I don't actually care about using the ricochet function of it (though the fact that you can Vital Strike multiple foes is certainly useful.) I care about the +6 damage to every throw just for using the style. That's equivalent to 22 Strength!

[Triskavanski]

Stabbing shot does work with a gun. The first feat of the style allows it. And yes, Pistol whip is a thing, if you want to spend 1 grit, to use it as a standard action.
If you have the Stabbing Shot feat, you can use it with a crossbow or firearm, substituting a loaded bolt or firearm ammunition for an arrow.

The style allows you blend pistol whips in with normal shooting. Possibly even better for someone who is using a repeating or musket as you can reload as a free action.

[Psyren]

Eh, I'm still not impressed. You could just 5-foot-step and keep shooting against the vast majority of foes. It's not that it's bad, it's that archery takes too many feats as it is without adding three more that you can avoid having to use with simple positioning.

[Triskavanski]

Yes, you could five foot step, as long as you're not in difficult terrain, darkness, against a wall, the enemy has step-up, etc. Even so, I don't look at the entire style as just being able to avoid AoOs.

One of the big ones is the fact that all your ranged bonuses to attack/damage rolls apply to the melee use of the weapon. The other is the ability to reload as a free action.

And beyond that, I just look at it more of a conceptional type character with the whole gunslinger thing, or a fairly decent switch hitting Ranger, if you absolutely need to use a bow. Cause, yes, on a strickly mechanical aspect of it, the style is kinda ho-hum. I'd rather be using the Overwatch style, though I don't know what to use that style with (as far as weapons go).

Could play a crossbow fighter, but with the current version of it, you loose out on all this delicious goodies. When Armor Master's handbook comes out, I think it might be worth playing a standard fighter instead of trading out everything

[Triskavanski]

Oh here is something.

Advance Class Guide - Bar room brawler gives you essentially Martial Versatility once per day.
Advance weapon training has Abundant Tactics that gives you Additional uses for feats that allow a limited times per day.

So while the Martial Versatility wouldn't be as good as the real deal, it does give you some flexbility.

[Psyren]

Yes, you could five foot step, as long as you're not in difficult terrain, darkness, against a wall, the enemy has step-up, etc. Even so, I don't look at the entire style as just being able to avoid AoOs.

Pfft to all those. Sandals/flight, Darkvision/Blind-Fight, you should avoid getting cornered anyway, and almost no monsters have that last one.


One of the big ones is the fact that all your ranged bonuses to attack/damage rolls apply to the melee use of the weapon. The other is the ability to reload as a free action.

Which sounds nice but then you have to continue to alternate melee to keep freeloading it. Pistol whip, reload, shoot, pistol whip, reload, shoot... which keeps you in melee, somewhere archers shouldn't be, style or no style. Gunslingers get free action reload without spending feats anyway. And if there are multiple folks in melee with you, you only don't provoke from the ones you bash, which is one at a time.



And beyond that, I just look at it more of a conceptional type character with the whole gunslinger thing, or a fairly decent switch hitting Ranger, if you absolutely need to use a bow. Cause, yes, on a strickly mechanical aspect of it, the style is kinda ho-hum. I'd rather be using the Overwatch style, though I don't know what to use that style with (as far as weapons go).

Could play a crossbow fighter, but with the current version of it, you loose out on all this delicious goodies. When Armor Master's handbook comes out, I think it might be worth playing a standard fighter instead of trading out everything

A switch-hitting ranger or fighter could just take Point Blank Master and not switch at all. A gunslinger could too after a dip.

Again, not saying it's bad... but with all the other feats archers need I'm just not enthused about either of those styles.


Oh here is something.

Advance Class Guide - Bar room brawler gives you essentially Martial Versatility once per day.
Advance weapon training has Abundant Tactics that gives you Additional uses for feats that allow a limited times per day.

So while the Martial Versatility wouldn't be as good as the real deal, it does give you some flexbility.

Barroom Brawler is indeed a great feat for this, good catch.

Shatterspell is nice too, though the racial choices for it are limited.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. I've been toying over a revolver-using gunslinger that uses Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes to work as a control specialist, might have to look over those.

[Triskavanski]

Whats the issue with the Overwatch style?

Beyond the fact that the only thing I know that takes real advantage of having readied actions doesn't have the ability to use Crossbow Training as WEapon training?

Few more Things that work with Abundant Tactics
Bar Room Brawler*
Combat Meditation*
Critical Versatility
Mirror Move*
Perfect Awareness*
ShatterSpell*
Slow Time*
Staggering Fist



Actually if you were a high wisdom fighter, those meditation feats could be crazy. Imagine being able to cast haste on yourself multiple times per day.

Mirror move is more Bar Room Brawling, but you get to use the enemies abilities against them.

[Psyren]

Whats the issue with the Overwatch style?

Beyond the fact that the only thing I know that takes real advantage of having readied actions doesn't have the ability to use Crossbow Training as WEapon training?

For starters, it's not actually a full-attack action (rather you are readying 4 separate attacks as a full-round action) so things that trigger on full-attacks like Manyshot or Clustered Shots won't work with this style. And if you have a way to get more attacks on a full-attack than that - like Haste or Flurry - this style ends up putting you behind on attacks.

I also don't like relying on readied actions because the GM is able (and indeed encouraged) to mess with them and have them go off in unintended ways.

It's interesting to note that as written, you can't actually reload while doing this even if you have a free-action reload, since free actions can only be taken on your turn. Nobody would actually enforce that here - the intent is clear - but it's still a bit of a blunder that the feat doesn't mention being able to reload. For longer reload times it's especially ambiguous how this style is supposed to work. Overwatch Vortex says "up to four attacks" which indicates you can get less, and so if you need some kind of separate action to reload you likely would end up with less.


TL;DR if I'm building an archer character, chances are I'm aiming for more than 4 attacks per round by BAB +11, and this style caps me unnecessarily while also having questionable wording.

[Sayt]

On the other hand, all of the four attacks are at Full bab, whereas at least two of the attacks in the full attack are at a penalty of -5 or greater.

That said, that's a pretty sparse benefit for three feats.

As for the reloading thing, doesn't that also technically hamper making ranged AoOs, wouldn't it?

I guess the real benefit of Overwatch style would be that it lets one queue up multiple triggers for Readied actions, and it's harder to 'bait out' readied actions.

[Triskavanski]

Perhaps, and I feel GMs who start trying to get like that, especially when they go all Evil Dijin are not nice Gms to play under when they begin trying to really push ways to force you to use Readied actions in wrong ways, ways that will hurt you.

But, I wonder if you could combine the style together with say, Startoss style.

Vital Strike I'm sure will work with it, but Startoss is a tossup



Actually.. Kinetic Blast from the Kineticist doesn't look half bad, if it even works. Bombs are also weapons.

Also I think a large sized creature could use a siege firearm with the empty quiver style. Put some real good fear in your players there with Bubba the cannon wielding ogre.

[Deadkitten]

Cold-Blooded (Monster Codex pg. 140 (Amazon)): Your blood turns sluggish without sufficient heat, and you must seek warmth and shelter earlier than most. This oracle curse is common among lizardfolk and other oracles with the reptilian subtype. You take a –4 penalty on saves against cold spells and effects, and whenever you fail such a saving throw, you are staggered for 1 round. You can survive without food four times longer than a typical creature of your species before you begin to starve. At 5th level, poisons affecting you have their onset time doubled and last half as long if they end after a set time (for example, a poison with a frequency of 1/round for 6 rounds would instead have a frequency of 1/round for 3 rounds). Poisons with no onset time gain an onset time of 1 round. At 10th level, whenever an action you have readied is triggered, you can take an additional move action at half your speed—along with your readied action—even if you have already taken a move action that round. At 15th level, you can take an additional move action a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. You can take these additional move actions only on your turn, and can take only one of these extra move actions per turn.

Perhaps this can be used to great effect with overwatch style?

[Psyren]

On the other hand, all of the four attacks are at Full bab, whereas at least two of the attacks in the full attack are at a penalty of -5 or greater.

You're forgetting haste though, which causes the normal full-attack to actually get the same number: 1 max BAB shot + 1 rapid shot bonus + 1 manyshot bonus + haste, for a total of 4 shots at your maximum BAB -2, just like Overwatch. But then you get the three lesser iteratives coming behind them as gravy. And you can stir in things like Clustered Shots or rely on other buffs/debuffs from allies to make the lower iteratives hit.

Or if you're a Zen Archer, you get 2 max BAB shots + ki pool + haste for four at -2, followed by a whopping 5 lesser iteratives.
Or if you're an Unchained Monk, you get 3 max BAB shots + ki pool + haste for 5 max BAB shots at no penalty at all, followed by 3 lesser iteratives.

Both of the above also work with Clustered Shots.

Overwatch Vortex comes up short - 4 at max BAB -2 and nothing else, and they don't work with full-attack stuff.



As for the reloading thing, doesn't that also technically hamper making ranged AoOs, wouldn't it?

Snap Shot does this and has a specific FAQ covering it. I would want them to extend that to all other "shoot multiple times when it's not my turn" abilities, and hopefully all GMs would rule that way.



I guess the real benefit of Overwatch style would be that it lets one queue up multiple triggers for Readied actions, and it's harder to 'bait out' readied actions.

If you use multiple triggers though, you increase the risk that some of them won't go off, wasting your attacks.



Actually.. Kinetic Blast from the Kineticist doesn't look half bad, if it even works. Bombs are also weapons.

Also I think a large sized creature could use a siege firearm with the empty quiver style. Put some real good fear in your players there with Bubba the cannon wielding ogre.

Kineticist + Overwatch is a very interesting idea. As written it seems to give you Flurry of Blasts for zero burn. Startoss won't work with it though (see below.)

Bomb + Startoss won't work either - that one isn't just "thrown weapons," it has to specifically be a weapon from the fighter's "Thrown" group. Alchemical splash weapons won't work with it either.

[Triskavanski]

I think we need a new book with all the Companion stuff in it.
Cause there is a lot of crossbows and other items that should be on fighter litsts that are not. Like the Ripsaw Glaive.

[Psyren]

Seifter confirmed Kineticist + Overwatch doesn't work, because Overwatch only lets you ready attack actions, but kinetic blast would require readying an SLA activation that has an attack as part of its resolution. If it did work, you could take Weapon Focus (ray) and use Overwatch to ready Scorching Rays or something. Ah well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is there anything specifically tailored for two weapon fighting?

[Triskavanski]

What about Overwatch + Startoss?

[Psyren]

What about Overwatch + Startoss?

Same problem - Startoss Comet isn't an attack, rather it's a special standard action that includes an attack roll. So you can ready an action to Startoss Comet/Shower, or you can ready regular ranged attacks as part of Overwatch, but not both. (The question is academic for anyone but a Master of Many Styles anyway, since you'd need both styles to be active simultaneously.)

[Triskavanski]

Master of Many Styles
Varisian Free-Style Fighter
and Weapon Style Mastery Feat


Weapon Style Mastery only needs you have weapon training class feature for a melee weapon. Most thrown weapons are also melee weapons too.


Well, Vital Strike should work with both still though.

[Psyren]

Master of Many Styles
Varisian Free-Style Fighter
and Weapon Style Mastery Feat

Well, before this book MoMS was the only option for that. I haven't had weeks to read the thing cover to cover like some folks, I only got it yesterday :smalltongue:



Well, Vital Strike should work with both still though.

Actually no - Vital Strike does work with Startoss, but only because it explicitly lets you apply the damage to it without spending a separate action. Vital Strike still requires a separate standard action to trigger, so it won't work with Overwatch at all; you can ready a Vital Strike, or ready regular attacks via Overwatch, but not both.

[Florian]

So basically, Overwatch Style is nifty for some bow-wielding companions to ease up combat.

[Triskavanski]

Vital strike doesn't need a standard action to use. It needs An attack action. Though I guess Overwatch does not state that the ranged attack is not a ranged attack action.


Alright, how about Alchemical items, with the only class that can effectively use them. The Rogue! The underground Chemist should be able to draw and throw them effectively. (Or Juggler Bard)

[Psyren]

Vital strike doesn't need a standard action to use. It needs An attack action. Though I guess Overwatch does not state that the ranged attack is not a ranged attack action.

Not "an attack action." "THE" "attack action," which is a type of standard action. This was covered in the vital strike FAQ. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyy)

You cannot ready a vital strike as part of readying any other attack. Startoss is an exception because it specifically lets you lift the damage part of vital strike (if you have it) and staple it on without using an action.

Basically, if Overwatch let you ready 4 standard actions (or even 4 "attack actions"), this would work. It doesn't - it lets you ready 4 attacks, so no vital strike. It's also the reason Vital Strike works with Flyby Attack but not Spring Attack.

[Triskavanski]

Thats kinda what I said. it doesn't specify you're readying the attack action, so without that word, it fails.


Now could overwatch be used though with alchemical weapons? Such as making an Underground Chemist with quickdraw or Juggler Bard?



Also, even though there is really no reason to do it, You could qualify as wielding a polearm, 2h weapon, weapon and shield, and two-weapon fighting with the Spinning spear style.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That sounds interesting, could you elaborate more on the Spinning spear style please?

[Psyren]

Now could overwatch be used though with alchemical weapons? Such as making an Underground Chemist with quickdraw or Juggler Bard?

Yes - but as I demonstrated earlier in the thread to Sayt, you actually end up behind on attacks that way vs. just full-attacking normally with haste and rapid shot. And since splash weapons are touch attacks, you have even less reason to care that your remaining iteratives have lower bonuses, because you're targeting touch AC anyway, so you end up even further behind on damaging attacks. So Overwatch style just doesn't add much to that either - it's three feats you could have put elsewhere, and you're forced to pick up Rapid Shot anyway.

If alchemical weapons are your bag, Slipslinger Style is much more interesting, and you can even combine it with Startoss Style and rack up some crazy damage, because Slings are in the Thrown group. Slipslinger lets you treat alchemical items as though they were sling bullets, thus you can full-attack with e.g. +5 Holy Water with a few sling-related feats like Juggle Load. Each shot would do sling damage + alchemical item damage + Str + 6 baseline, then you can add in things like the Underground Chemist's sneak attack, weapon training/specialization etc depending on your class.


That sounds interesting, could you elaborate more on the Spinning spear style please?

I think he meant Spear Dancing Style, which lets you treat any spear or polearm as though it were a quarterstaff with reach. This lets you use it as a double weapon (the other end is treated like a light mace) or you can combine it with Quarterstaff Master to use it one hand, still with reach. This then lets you use it with a shield and all the other stuff he said.

[Triskavanski]

Spinning Spear style removes reach and brace from a polearm/spear, but gives it the double weapon quality. I think that alone is pretty good, as you can negate the greatest weakness of a pole arm.. enemies that are adjacent to you and out of your reach.

You can also begin wielding the polearm as if it qualified for finesse with second feat

Third feat is the kicker. You can give one end of the double weapon reach. And then it qualifies for any feat/class feature that Quarter staff qualifies for.


So you can use it with Quarter Staff Mastery which lets you wield a quarterstaff 1 handed. Then you pick up a shield that you can wield as a weapon.

Now the ability to wield one handed doesn't make it a 1h weapon, rather it stays a 2h weapon. Shield and weapon weapon trick doesn't need a shield and a 1h weapon. But a Weapon wielded in one hand and shield in the other.

Mind you that this needs you to expect a number of feats you'd never really use, like weapon focus quarterstaff



Ah yes, Dancing Spear style. I keep getting it mixed up with the spinning spear feat.


Edit

Another thing, a lot of these feats and the like are looking for Weapon Training. One of the reasons why Crossbow Master can't use them is because his ability though functionally like Weapon Training (for crossbows), lacks the name needed or something that says it functions like Weapon Training.

However rogues can pick up Weapon Training, as a rogue talent, which makes me wonder about it. Obviously It probably doesn't work.. but exactly how do you tell someone.

[Psyren]

The style feats only look for weapon training if you want to be able to use them with multiple weapons. They'll all work fine with the type of weapon you have Focused whether you have Weapon Training or not.

The Advanced Weapon Training abilities do want you to have Weapon Training obviously, but those seem intended as nice things for Fighters anyway. There are definitely some goodies on that list too.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They seem interesting, specially the part where you can use a polearm as double weapon, I have some character concepts that could benefit from that, but the other benefits, which by my understanding are not a directly consequence of the feat itself but from some rule interactions, are... late I guess. One-handing a reach weapon is possible through PoW with the Pikeman's Training or Pikeman's stances (granted you need to wield a shield). Still it is nice to know I have that option in first part only.

A staff magus using this feat sounds pretty interesting, and depending on the action used to change the spear between reach weapon or double you might be able to finally be a TWF magus.

[Triskavanski]

Ranged and Melee weapon mastery looks for Weapon Training. As does the advanced Weapon training. But AWT also looks for fighter levels.

[Abithrios]

Did someone say something about options for swashbucklers?

Is it any good? Are there options that are not class specific that are good for that type of play?

What about intimidate? Anything good for that?

[Triskavanski]

For a Swash, If you can qualify for Power attack, and blow a feat on it, you could get the ability to Parry all attacks. Parry all melee attacks, Parry all ranged attacks too. Just three feats, and a lot of focus on getting AoOs

[Sayt]

So, with Improved Two Weapon Feint, and Weapon Trick (Shield Bash), you can actually get functionally free feinting. ((Surrender an attack for a feint check. When you succeed on a feint check, the feinted enemy provokes. You can only execute this AoO with a Shield Bash))

Are we going to be seeing Sword and Board Slayers and Rogues? Cause I kinda do want to make one now.

Also, I like the Divine Weapon Training stuff, especially Iomedae's. Am I right in thinking the advanced version works with Full attacks? (Because you do "I attack. proc stuff. I continue to full attack.")

Also, I really do like the Advanced Weapon trainings, there's some cool options in there, IMO.

[Triskavanski]

I think its pretty intresting to have two options there for weapon finese, allowing you to use WF with any weapon and while you using WF you gain double the Weapon training bonus on damage rolls.

[Sayt]

I think its pretty intresting to have two options there for weapon finese, allowing you to use WF with any weapon and while you using WF you gain double the Weapon training bonus on damage rolls.

You gain double the WT bonus to damage, while getting strength to damage and Dex to hit. Which is... interesting. Plus ten to damage in exchange for splitting hit and damage to different stats might actually be worth it, possibly. I haven't done the math.


I quite liked the Ranger and Paladin no-casting archetypes. Spells are good, yes, but I'd rate the Ranger archetype as better than the trap or skirmisher ranger archetypes, and Paladin's getting Disruptive and a few fighter only feats isn't completely terrible.

[Triskavanski]

I think the 1h weapon trick is another good thing for Swashes
Cause You'd totally take combat Reflexes as a Swash. So getting a free Riposte whenever an enemy misses you by 5 or more, getting the ability to hit them with an AoO is nice. Even if it is only once per enemy More chances to get your Panche back.

[Psyren]

I think the 1h weapon trick is another good thing for Swashes
Cause You'd totally take combat Reflexes as a Swash. So getting a free Riposte whenever an enemy misses you by 5 or more, getting the ability to hit them with an AoO is nice. Even if it is only once per enemy More chances to get your Panche back.

Since it's technically a daily ability, I wonder if Abundant Tactics would work with it?

I'm looking through the Advanced Weapon Training options now and there are some neat tricks.

[Triskavanski]

By Phrasing, no. It doesn't specifically have the words "per day." Rather it has 24 hours. Meaning of course if you fought the guy at 9pm on day one, then at 8am you'd still not be able to use it against the guy.


Now Abundant Maneuvers does work with one of the magic item mastery abilities that gives you Telekinesis.

[Psyren]

By Phrasing, no. It doesn't specifically have the words "per day." Rather it has 24 hours. Meaning of course if you fought the guy at 9pm on day one, then at 8am you'd still not be able to use it against the guy.

I dont think we're talking about the same thing. I was talking about Stylish Riposte, which states:


Stylish Riposte (Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +4):
When your AC exceeds the result of a foe’s melee attack against you by 5 or more, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Once you make such an attack of opportunity against a foe, you can’t again use this trick against the foe that day.

It says "that day," not anything about 24 hours. It's one of the 1H options under the Weapon Trick feat. So it should work with Abundant Tactics.

[Triskavanski]

Ah, yeah. We were and we weren't. I had seen many other feats out there were 24 hours.

Still, the feat doesn't have the same wording as ones like stunning fist. Now if it could work, that would be wonderful for swashes.

[Florian]

Rather seems like it is phrased ansöog to the clause found in witch/shaman hexes.

[twas_Brillig]

One of the big ones is the fact that all your ranged bonuses to attack/damage rolls apply to the melee use of the weapon. The other is the ability to reload as a free action.

Would anybody mind expanding on the language here a little? There's a PoW:E archetype (the privateer (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit)) that can also do some weird fusing of melee and ranged attacks and it'd be interesting to know if there's any interaction.


Sea Combat- The Privateer may choose to treat ranged attacks made with firearms made against adjacent enemies as melee attacks, using his melee attack bonus for these attacks in place of his ranged attack bonus. In addition, the privateer may reload their one handed firearm while wielding another weapon in their other hand, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity for reloading this way.

[Coxswain]

Well, after reading through this thread I think you folks have convinced me to buy this book. Sounds super relevant to my current game, too (mummy's mask, I am playing a beatstick. Only I'd like to do more than hit things in combat...)

[Triskavanski]

Here's a question..

I can't use Swashbuckler Weapon Training to qualify for things that Require Weapon Training.

However if I took Swashbuckler, and somehow also gained Weapon Training (Variant Multiclassing or Gestalt or whatever) This would stack to improve my weapon right?

[Florian]

Here's a question..

I can't use Swashbuckler Weapon Training to qualify for things that Require Weapon Training.

However if I took Swashbuckler, and somehow also gained Weapon Training (Variant Multiclassing or Gestalt or whatever) This would stack to improve my weapon right?

It would, as they are untyped boni.

As for VMC, look out for the parrent classes. Swashbuckler lists Fighter and Gunslinger, so both VMC option are not possible.

[Triskavanski]

Those might be 'parent' classes, but from my knowledge, when the book came out they removed the silly "You can't Multiclass with parents"

Did VMC somehow put this back in?

[Psyren]

As for VMC, look out for the parrent classes. Swashbuckler lists Fighter and Gunslinger, so both VMC option are not possible.

This is false, the hybrid classes no longer count as the "component classes" for multiclassing purposes. That was the case during the playtest but it was removed from the final release. You can both multiclass normally (Fighter/Swashbuckler) or you can use VMC as well (Hunter VMC Ranger.)

[Florian]

Those might be 'parent' classes, but from my knowledge, when the book came out they removed the silly "You can't Multiclass with parents"

Did VMC somehow put this back in?

It still states that (parent) derived class features don't stack with parent class features unless explicely stated that they stack.

Sticking to the Swashbuckler, it is stated that grit and panache stack, but not that the Weapon Trainings stack.

[Triskavanski]

However Weapon training and Swashbuckler Weapon Training are not the same thing. If they were, then Swashbuckler Weapon Training should qualify for the advance weapon training options.

[Psyren]

It still states that (parent) derived class features don't stack with parent class features unless explicely stated that they stack.

Sticking to the Swashbuckler, it is stated that grit and panache stack, but not that the Weapon Trainings stack.

You win either way though. Either it counts as Weapon Training and doesn't stack (but you can just take Advanced Weapon Training on it directly), or it doesn't and therefore doesn't stack (and multiclassing/VMC will work to get you Advanced Weapon Training.) Either way, you can get AWT on your Swashbuckler.

Swordplay Style seems to suggest that they are not the same ability:


Special: A character with the swashbuckler weapon training or weapon training (heavy blades or light blades) class feature can use Swordplay Style with any light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, heavy blade, or light blade, respectively, in addition to the chosen weapon.

[Florian]

I'm with Psyren there.
On their own, they wouldn't stack. As a direct route to Advanced Weapon Training, it's ok. Semantics, yes, but a difference nonetheless.

Edit: In my mother tongue, we have an axiom meaning "mind of a bureaucrat". That's the imprtant part here, as things like dueling gloves are still excluded then.

[Triskavanski]

The thing is, a class feature that might be functionally the same thing is not the same thing unless certain wording is used. Like "Functions as weapon training of a fighter." or one that focuses you to select a specific option, is still functionally the same.

This is why I'm annoyed with things like Crossbow Fighter, who while has functionally the same thing as Weapon Training (crossbow) his class feature has a different name, does not force the selection and does not say it functions like the weapon training Fighter.

Grit and Panche specifically is called out to be the same thing, because otherwise they wouldn't have been the same thing. They would have been separate entities. Again, Grit and Panche are called out another time in the Investigator that gains a pool of Luck points


Her luck goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Charisma modifier (minimum 1), though feats, magic items, and spells that grant either grit or panache points can also grant a sleuth luck points equal to the amount of grit or panache they grant.



But since we're stuck on the fact that a swashbuckler is a hybrid class. Lets flip the dynamic.

Gunslinger with Firearm Weapon Training VMC into Fighter

[Florian]

@Tris:

Ok, I bite, even if that is a trick question.
Gunslinger is no Fighter-derived class, so the no stacking rule introduced for parent classes doesn't count here.
And no, I answer based on RAW, not based on what I think about it

[Psyren]

RAW they are not the same ability. But you can multiclass just fine if you need that ability. That's all I'm personally saying.

RAI I think they are definitely not meant to be the same. The whole book seems to have been designed to give Fighter more unique toys to play with, and letting Swashbuckler and Gunslinger and Brawler poach freely from that doesn't make sense to me.

[Triskavanski]

There's no trick question. Just was asking about that one there.



On the swashbuckler part of things, Sneak Attack from Rogue and Sneak attack from Slayer wouldn't stack unless it specifies other wise.


Sneak attack would be totally derived from the main class.
AC bonus of Monk and Brawler would be derived, as would the unarmed attack bonus
Channel Energy for War Priests wouldn't stack because its derived from Cleric who have the same ability. While Sacred weapon would stack with weapon training, because they are not the same ability.


This isn't actually anything new. Paladins and Clerics don't have stacking Channel Energy Either.

*******************

Now, from what I read of VMC though, there is one small issue..

I don't think you actually count as a Fighter. I'm not sure on that, I don't have the book with me. So the AWT feat might only be able to be picked up once, as you don't have any levels of fighter.

[twas_Brillig]

Another feat question, with mild PoW relevance: what are the requirements like on the Elf style feat that gives Int to damage? That sounds interesting for a harbinger.

[Psyren]

Another feat question, with mild PoW relevance: what are the requirements like on the Elf style feat that gives Int to damage? That sounds interesting for a harbinger.

Requires Elven Battle Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/elven-battle-training-combat-elf), Weapon Finesse and the weapon familiarity racial. This rules out most races except for Elves and Half-Elves (the latter qualify for EBT and can get weapon familiarity as an alternate racial.) The style only works with rapiers, longswords, and any weapon with some variant of "elf" in the name (e.g. the Elven Curve Blade.) A savvy half-elf however can expand the choices via the human feat Martial Versatility.

[Triskavanski]

Humans could qualify for both Elf or Orc style, by trading away their bonus feat for the weapon familiarity of the race and then pick up the racial heritage feat. A Human Orc Blooded Sorcerer would have an easier time with Orc style though.

Adoptive Parentage does actually give the races weapon familiary.

[Sir Chuckles]

Requires Elven Battle Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/elven-battle-training-combat-elf), Weapon Finesse and the weapon familiarity racial. This rules out most races except for Elves and Half-Elves (the latter qualify for EBT and can get weapon familiarity as an alternate racial.) The style only works with rapiers, longswords, and any weapon with some variant of "elf" in the name (e.g. the Elven Curve Blade.) A savvy half-elf however can expand the choices via the human feat Martial Versatility.

So that gives me the idea of Half-Elf Unchained Rogue using an Elven Branched spear and/or Elven Curved Blade.
Though that depends on the wording of Elven Battle style on if it would work in conjunction with Unchained Rogue's dex to damage.

On the plus side, the whole using the polearm as double weapon may let me bring back my old Spinning Halberd/Haft Strike characters to some degree.

[Florian]

@Tris:

Well, you pick up a "Secondary Class" and you can't use regular MCing to enter an already existing class again. That means you count as having levels in a class.

[Sayt]

I just realized, with the Dual Style feat, Ascetic Style+Form, and a permissive reading of Dragon Style+Ferocity and , you can get 2.5/2x strength with a Sansetsukon or other monk weapon you're two handing.

Ascetic Style also lets you use Vicious Stomp with any given monk weapon.

[Triskavanski]

@Tris:

Well, you pick up a "Secondary Class" and you can't use regular MCing to enter an already existing class again. That means you count as having levels in a class.

Oh it does? Okay.

[Psyren]

@Tris:

Well, you pick up a "Secondary Class" and you can't use regular MCing to enter an already existing class again. That means you count as having levels in a class.

If you're talking about VMC this is not true. You can't MC into a VMC class simply because it says you can't; it's nothing to do with having levels. You don't count as having levels in a VMC class, just class features from that class that scale with your character level. For example, If I'm a Paladin who takes VMC Fighter, I don't count as having Fighter levels for things like Weapon Specialization or Disruptive.

[Florian]

If you're talking about VMC this is not true. You can't MC into a VMC class simply because it says you can't; it's nothing to do with having levels. You don't count as having levels in a VMC class, just class features from that class that scale with your character level. For example, If I'm a Paladin who takes VMC Fighter, I don't count as having Fighter levels for things like Weapon Specialization or Disruptive.

You are experienced enough to know the difference between something counting as class levels and something counting as a specific amount of class levels.
If you take something that is "Fighter only", a character wirh VMC fighter might use it just fine. Specific for "4 levels of Fighter"? Nope.

[Triskavanski]

So even with the VMC you could only ever qualify for a single Advance Weapon Training unless you could find a way to qualify as a fighter as well.

Sohei would only be able to take one, but might be able to take others replacing additional levels of Weapon Training

Myrmidarch Magus's on the other hand do qualify for additional types taking it as a feat.

Brawlers with a VMC would be able to qualify for multiple uses.

[Psyren]

You are experienced enough to know the difference between something counting as class levels and something counting as a specific amount of class levels.
If you take something that is "Fighter only", a character wirh VMC fighter might use it just fine. Specific for "4 levels of Fighter"? Nope.

I am very experienced, yes, which is why I can confidently say you are wrong. You do not count as your VMC class except for the very specific class features it grants you. Items, feats and other rules elements that care about those class features will work, but if they want you to actually be a member of that class then they won't.

But lets get specific here - what option are you actually saying VMC Fighter will let you qualify for?

[Florian]

I am very experienced, yes, which is why I can confidently say you are wrong. You do not count as your VMC class except for the very specific class features it grants you. Items, feats and other rules elements that care about those class features will work, but if they want you to actually be a member of that class then they won't.

But lets get specific here - what option are you actually saying VMC Fighter will let you qualify for?

I'm using a tablet right now, so copying text whole cloth is a bit too much of a chore just for the sake of argument. I trust in you having access to the source material.

Now, the entry section to VMC is very specific about you picking a secondary class for your character and excluded you from regular multiclassing into said class, as you already count as being a member of that class.

Before we go down the route of diskussion technicalities, let me propose a simple Lackmus Test on this:
If you pick VMC Paladin, do you count as Paladin for a Holy Avenger or not?

[Psyren]

Now, the entry section to VMC is very specific about you picking a secondary class for your character and excluded you from regular multiclassing into said class, as you already count as being a member of that class.

Bold is the part you keep on adding that is not in the book. It says nothing about you "counting as a member of that class" - only that you can't multiclass. Here is the exact text:


It is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or normal multiclassing, but it's possible for the two systems to be used together. In a game using both systems, a character can't take levels in the secondary class she gains from this variant.

That's it, full stop. Nothing about "you can't do it because you already count as that class." Just "you can't take levels in your secondary class."



Before we go down the route of diskussion technicalities, let me propose a simple Lackmus Test on this:
If you pick VMC Paladin, do you count as Paladin for a Holy Avenger or not?

No, you don't. VMC Paladin does not make you a Paladin, it just gives you various paladin class features - e.g. detect evil, smite evil and so on - that scale in a limited way with your character level. If the book does not say you count as X, you don't count as X.

[Florian]

@Psyren:

Please cite the whole paragraph. You're encouraged to either use regular MCing or VMCing, one replacing the other when used.

So there's no difference between paladin1/fighter19 and fighter20(paladin), you are a paladin, as one option simply replaces the other.

[Deadkitten]

Under the core rules, multiclassing can lead to a wide disparity in character ability. With this system, each character can choose a secondary class at 1st level that she trains in throughout her career, without giving up levels in her primary class. Once selected, this choice is permanent (though if using the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign, the secondary class can be retrained by paying half the cost of retraining all her class levels). A character who selects this option doesn’t gain feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels, but instead gains class features from her secondary class as described on Table 2–8: Multiclass Character Advancement. It is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or normal multiclassing, but it’s possible for the two systems to be used together. In a game using both systems, a character can’t take levels in the secondary class she gains from this variant.

The entry on VMC seems to clearly spell out what you get from the system, which are class features from your secondary class, this coupled with the inability to multiclass with your VMC parent class leads me to lean with Psyren on this one.

It does have some vagueness due to the repeated mentioning of "Secondary Class" in the description, but from what I can tell this merely is used to describe the VMC system and has no interaction with any other rules element in the game.

[Florian]

The entry on VMC seems to clearly spell out what you get from the system, which are class features from your secondary class, this coupled with the inability to multiclass with your VMC parent class leads me to lean with Psyren on this one.

It does have some vagueness due to the repeated mentioning of "Secondary Class" in the description, but from what I can tell this merely is used to describe the VMC system and has no interaction with any other rules element in the game.

Thank you.

It clearly states that there will be a "primary" and a "secondary" class for that character, the moment that choice has been made.
The notation should look like: (Mix of class levels) (levels) [Secundary class]

for itself, that is not very important, as there're very few things that are binary enough to simply ask for purely having class lebels or not, but it happens.

[Psyren]

The entry on VMC seems to clearly spell out what you get from the system, which are class features from your secondary class, this coupled with the inability to multiclass with your VMC parent class leads me to lean with Psyren on this one.

Indeed.

Florian, I'm done arguing with you on this, feel free to let VMC Paladins use holy avengers in your games (with its 0 CL dispel) all you want. Either way, let's get back to discussing the actual topic of this thread, the Weapon Masters Handbook.

[Triskavanski]

I tried to make an Elf Swashbuckler who could get the smash from the sky feats, elf style and sword style. But it didn't turn out well. Not enough feats.

There is also the ability to make a character who could use the Dimensional Savant a little better too with the magic item things.

[Florian]

@Psyren:

*Shrugs* Your call. If I'm not too sunday-lazy, I'll post a question about it on the Paizo boards tomorrow. The answer to that will be interesting in regard to this here discussion, tho.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The weapon crafting rules don't seem too bad. The cost of the Finesse (3DP) balances out with the lost bonus DP bonuses you could gain if you chose to make the weapon a Light weapon instead of a One-Handed weapon. There's some fun options, like Spring Loaded on a Reach weapon, which lets you enable and disable the reach property with a swift action (Anybody want to build a Snake Sword?). The only options that aren't priced properly are the costs or Crit Multipliers and Crit Ranges. An 18-20 crit range will cost you 10 DP, which is basically the maximum DP you can have on an exotic 1-handed weapon that only has a d3 damage dice... That reeks of an infamous "Paizo's idea of balance" decision as a simple Rapier can't be built with this system. Reducing the costs on those two options is necessary.

Other than that, I'd actually expand on the system a bit with some additional flavor and utility options. It could be really cool for crafting-minded players.

[Sir Chuckles]

The real question on the weapon crafting is how badly can you cheese it? Race points are known to be easy to go nuts for if you leave out the bells and whistles, which led to absurd stat bonuses.

Next question I asked earlier but was drowned by the debate. Would Umchained Rogue be able stack weapon finesse and Elf Battle Training for dex plus strength to damage?

[Triskavanski]

Heres something..

Abundant Tactics AWT gives you the ability to use a combat feat more times per day.

Inspiring Confidence allows you to a few times perday, allow an allay to try and resave again.

You have to pick up the combat feat AWT to get this. Would this qualify?


***************

Another thing is Weapon Mastery feats count as combat feats. Its not in view.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The real question on the weapon crafting is how badly can you cheese it? Race points are known to be easy to go nuts for if you leave out the bells and whistles, which led to absurd stat bonuses.

The system isn't fleshed out enough to allow for too much cheese, and the absurd costs of the crit enhancements prevents you from making very strong weapons. The best I could find was a 1d3 19-20 x3 weapon with the ability to activate or deactivate reach via a swift action. Dipping one level in Swashbuckler allows you to use Slashing Grace with the weapon too, so that can be a fairly nasty combo with some Gish builds. You could also come up with some fun options with the War Priest, using their automatic damage dice progression.



Next question I asked earlier but was drowned by the debate. Would Umchained Rogue be able stack weapon finesse and Elf Battle Training for dex plus strength to damage?

Elven Battle Style states: "While using Elven Battle Style, you can add your Intelligence modifier to that weapon’s damage (instead of any other ability bonus or modifier you can add to your weapon damage)."

Its specifically designed to prevent you from adding two attributes to damage, so unfortunately no.

[Triskavanski]

Here's something as well..

A Fighter who takes an Item Mastery feat would qualify for item crafting feats.

[Psyren]

Here's something as well..

A Fighter who takes an Item Mastery feat would qualify for item crafting feats.

You don't actually get a caster level from these, the effects they create merely treat your base attack bonus as one. Furthermore, it explicitly states the magic is coming from the item rather than you.

But Fighters can craft magic items in core (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman---final) anyway.

[Triskavanski]

Ah crap. I thought it would be nice to be able to craft them using a feat that doesn't just say you can use other feats to craft magic items.

[Psyren]

Ah crap. I thought it would be nice to be able to craft them using a feat that doesn't just say you can use other feats to craft magic items.

Even if your interpretation worked though, how would you have gotten around taking the crafting feats? Those are non-negotiable requirements to craft anything.

[Triskavanski]

Well, Would have had a spell like ability. From my understanding, that would give me a caster level, unless its been changed again.

[Psyren]

Well, Would have had a spell like ability. From my understanding, that would give me a caster level, unless its been changed again.

They use extremely weird wording: "You can cause an item to cast X" rather than "You gain X as a spell-like ability." That plus the UMD requirement suggests to me that you aren't actually gaining any SLAs yourself.

Having said that, even if you do get a bonafide SLA, you would still need the item creation feat to make the item. So its no different than Master Craftsman in that respect.

[Triskavanski]

yeah, but the feat does something more than "You can take feats like you were a spellcaster."

Which is more of what I was looking for there.

[Kitsuneymg]

So does Overwatch Vortex allow you to use ranged weapons tricks with it? If so, an archer with that style can help block AoOs and buff caster's pretty well. Would be pretty good for a support character that didn't want to melee (a non-battle bard,maybe?)

[Psyren]

So does Overwatch Vortex allow you to use ranged weapons tricks with it? If so, an archer with that style can help block AoOs and buff caster's pretty well. Would be pretty good for a support character that didn't want to melee (a non-battle bard,maybe?)

This is a really good question; I'm actually not sure. It's unclear whether the attack you ready with Overwatch can be one that triggers a ranged weapon trick, or if you need a "standalone" readied action to do that. Personally I'd allow the combo as it gives the style some needed oomph.

[Shadowscale]

Having just heard of this book and not owning it yet I was wondering if at all if it played off of the Weapon Master Fighter Archetype at all? Or the new combat system added in pathfinder unchained.

[Serafina]

It interfaces quite a bit with the "Weapon Training" class feature.
First, it's a prerequisite for a lot of feats (there's a feat that you can take instead, but that's one additional feat you need to take).

Second, if you get regular "Weapon Training" - the version where you first choose a weapon group, and then later get additional groups - you can take "Advanced Weapon Training" (a variety of features) in place of that additional weapon group.

Now, the "Weapon Master" archetype does not gain that variant of "Weapon Training" - they do get something with the same name, but with no additional weapon groups.
However, there is a feat called "Advanced Weapon Training" that also allows you to select one of those benefits, assuming you're a 5th-level Fighter and have the "Weapon Training" class feature. It even specifically mentions the Weapon Master, who can specifically pick it - and can actually pick it more often than regular fighters (theoretically up to 13 times, instead of just four times).

And the Weapon Master actually gets more out of those AWTs too!
Specifically, a lot of them depend on your "weapon training bonus" - which the Weapon Master advances faster (2 levels earlier) and gets higher (up to +5 instead of +4).
Even better, there is the "Weapon Specialist" AWT - which gives you several (equal to our weapon training bonus) feats, as long as those feats only apply to specific weapons. That includes Weapon Focus/Specialization - but better yet, it includes all the new Weapon Styles!
(I am uncertain whether it applies to feats that only affect one weapon which you can't choose yourself, such as Weapon of th Chosen).

Effectively, just counting that class feature, the Weapon Master can now trade a single bonus feat for up to five bonus feats.


11th-level Weapon Master
Pick a single weapon that is both in the Close Combat and the Monk category (Brass Knuckles, Cestus, Dang Bong, Emei Piercer, Fighting Fan, Tonfa, Unarmed Strike).

At this level, a single pick of Advanced Weapon Training (Weapon Specialist) will yield you three feats.
Pick it thrice to get Ascetic Style, Ascetic Strike and Ascetic Form, as well as Outslug Style, Outslug Weave and Outslug Sprint, and Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and either Weapon Specialization or Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
You also need to take Take Weapon Style Mastery and Lunge, and should take Monastic Legacy.

Dual-Wield your chosen weapon (three feats for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).

So far, we've spent nine feats out of elven, so there's some more room here. Such as or more AWTs, or other feats in general.

You can now effectively take a 10-foot step (getting +2 to AC and damage) and can attack targets 10 feet away.
You get six attacks that deal 2D10 base weapon damage, plus whatever you gain from Strength, enchantments or the like. You also count as a Monk 11 for the purpose of how often you can use certain feats, and you can apply ANY feat or class ability that can only be applied to unarmed strikes to attacks with your chosen weapon.

[Psyren]

Having just heard of this book and not owning it yet I was wondering if at all if it played off of the Weapon Master Fighter Archetype at all? Or the new combat system added in pathfinder unchained.

Yes, the Weapon Master Fighter gets a lot of benefit because it gets an accelerated version of Weapon Training. Since that version is still called "Weapon Training," they can qualify for the Advanced Weapon Training options in the book, as well as the weapon mastery feats that care about Weapon Training.

As for Stamina, there are additional combat tricks in the book for feats from Inner Sea Combat, Inner Sea World Guide and Inner Sea Gods. I haven't been through them in depth yet, though some that stood out to me were the tricks for Perfect Style, Flagbearer, Spiked Destroyer, Heroic Interposition, and Measured Response (this last one has interesting implications for touch attacks and rays.)

[Triskavanski]

Weapon master can also easily trade out any number of their fighter bonus feats for more AWT options. They're not limited to 1 per 5 level of fighter if they use bonus feats.

[Shadowscale]

Also did this book print anything for the cavalier?

[Molosse]

Also did this book print anything for the cavalier?

Beyond general options for martial characters, there's nothing in particular for Cavaliers.

As an aside I would've loved to see some similar ideas to the "Arm Bind" Weapon Trick which, for those who don't know, allows a PC to disarm an enemy who's not using manufactured weapons. Something like a Weapon Trick which allows for Sunder to damage Natural Armour or Weapons or Trip to target flying creatures. Would be nice to give effects like Trip/Sunder/Disarm use throughout campaigns that switch up enemy types.

[Molosse]

Apologies for the double post but to get some conversation going has anyone seen any nice combinations or uses from the book? For example the Crossbowman Fighter Archetype with a VMC Rogue works pretty well, from what I can tell, with the Overwatch Style.

Upto four readied shots a round, adding in Dex and SA to damage due to denying Dex to AC on readied attacks and Deadshot/Improved Deadshot. Take that, Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Expert Sniper from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox for a decently roguish Crossbowman.

[ArendK]

I've only had a token chance to really browse this, but I will say this about the WMH;

It seems to be a "let's give martials a chance to customize characters (with the MTT and RTT as well) that remain effective and different from each other" concept.

Since I can now think of multiple martial builds with multiple weapon configurations I both like and would actually run now AS A FIGHTER, I'd say that is a substantial improvement to the system.

Kudos to Paizo!

[Secret Wizard]

Also did this book print anything for the cavalier?

Not directly, but if you were building a 2H unmounted Cavalier, you have a lot more options to play with.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm really liking Outslug Style. I think it's a viable alternative to Pummeling Style for brawlers, especially if you can figure out a way to get more 5-foot steps from an item or something. You can move 10 feet and it removes the Lunge penalty, so it's better for close-quarters battles, and it comes online slightly earlier, with Lunge being the only part that requires BAB+6; for a brawler, once you have Lunge you should be able to get the entire style with one use of Martial Flexibility. It also allows you to attack multiple opponents, whilst Pummeling Charge has the advantages of being able to charge+total damage for DR.