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Fronko
2007-05-27, 05:46 AM
HI there!

I am pondering a new character, a half-orc that is going to multi-class in barbarian and cleric and who then heavily goes into Two-Weapon fighting.

Donīt tell me, that it is a sub-par build, for I am going for the fun of it, not the power. I intend to play him as a meatshield/damage dealer with the (later) added benefits of self-buffing/-healing. My questions are the following:

a) He is a barbarian, which grants +10 feet movement. He possibly also is going to pick the celerity domain from Complete Divine, which also grants +10 feet movement. Do they stack or not? Can I get a movement of 50 feet?

b) I am probably going to go through the entire Tempest prestige class (meaning I might also squeeze two levels of fighter in there for the feats). This in the end grants a +3 AC bonus. Do these stack with the "Two-Weapon Defense" feats? The feat offer a "shield bonus to AC", while the prestige class benefits offer a "bonus to AC".

Any other comments/suggestions?

RMS Oceanic
2007-05-27, 06:07 AM
a) He is a barbarian, which grants +10 feet movement. He possibly also is going to pick the celerity domain from Complete Divine, which also grants +10 feet movement. Do they stack or not? Can I get a movement of 50 feet?

They are both untyped bonuses. As I read it, unless specifically stated otherwise, untyped bonuses always stack with anything, including each other.


b) I am probably going to go through the entire Tempest prestige class (meaning I might also squeeze two levels of fighter in there for the feats). This in the end grants a +3 AC bonus. Do these stack with the "Two-Weapon Defense" feats? The feat offer a "shield bonus to AC", while the prestige class benefits offer a "bonus to AC".

Again, the Tempest AC bonus is untyped, so it should stack.


Any other comments/suggestions?

I have to ask: do you intend to be more Cleric or Barbarian? I'd definately pick up the Fighter Feats, as you need five feats just to qualify. What weapons do you intend to wield when TWF-ing?

Spiryt
2007-05-27, 06:27 AM
What books do you have?

I think you shurely should take two weapon pounce (or even something that allow you to makme full attack when charge) and Leap attack. It will allow you to deal Power attack damage x4 thanks to your TWF.
And such fast character will be good at charge. Other feat/abilities that are improving Power attack will alsowork good qith TWF.

Falrin
2007-05-27, 06:29 AM
Take a look at headlong rush for this one. Combined with leaap attack to get those low P-A at -1/+2. If I'm right the tempest can hit with both weapons afther a charge? Now you might get some nice damage of.

As a weapon: What about the orc double axe? Yes I know, but: Does it allow to be handled with 2 weapons for -1/+2 PA? Ask your DM


Last: Common houserules.

As you mentionned TWF is inferiour. DMs tend to allow certain things:

Attack with both weapons as a standard action.
Drop greater TWF-tree. the TWF-feat lets you gain all extra attacks.

Fronko
2007-05-27, 06:32 AM
Thanks for the answers.

As for my character, I am not quite sure yet, but he is going to be more barbarian at first, with cleric kicking in rather after the tempest thing. I am not quite sure on the sequence of class choices. Need to think about xp penalty, too.

As for weapons, I assume a slashing/bludgeoing combination, probably a battle axe and a light mace (or Iīll screw the one-handed weapon penalty and go with a morning star for all three damage types).

Allowed books: PHB, DMG, Complete series, thatīs it.

EDIT: Reading all your answers, I am not sure, I can take so many additional feats. Requirements for tempest are already very high in that respect and I am not sure how much fighter I can get in to avoid xp penalties... :/

Spiryt
2007-05-27, 06:35 AM
:


Drop greater TWF-tree. the TWF-feat lets you gain all extra attacks.

Interesting houserule, but what about feats that require Impr. TWF ec, and rangers levels 6th and 11th?

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-27, 06:37 AM
Interesting. I have never heard of a DM giving away those feats for free before. I don't think most DMs would allow that. You might try to get Speed Burst from Arcana Evolved though (gives an extra move action 1/day per 2 levels). Speed Burst pretty much makes TWF viable.

RMS Oceanic
2007-05-27, 06:49 AM
Interesting. I have never heard of a DM giving away those feats for free before.

Actually, I've heard about it a lot. Because TWF generally needs more feats than the other melee styles (Unarmed, Two-Handed and Sword-and-Board), some DM's rule that the TWF feat grows as you advance, giving you extra attacks as you meet the dexterity/BAB requirements.

If you're worried about XP penalties, you'll only have to worry about that once you take your fourth Cleric level. Half-Orcs have Barbarian as a favoured class, and Prestige classes don't count towards multiclassing penalties. You only have to worry once the balance between Fighter and Cleric is upset.

Fronko
2007-05-27, 06:53 AM
If you're worried about XP penalties, you'll only have to worry about that once you take your fourth Cleric level. Half-Orcs have Barbarian as a favoured class, and Prestige classes don't count towards multiclassing penalties. You only have to worry once the balance between Fighter and Cleric is upset.

Well, thatīs exactly the point. I want this char to be a barbarian and a cleric. The fighter would only be a fix to achieve tempest requirements. After that I want the cleric part to expand. And I do not feel comfortable to raise fighter levels the same way as cleric levels, because that just wouldnīt fit my concept.

Leaving fighter out completely though will take away two feats that I need to compensate for.

But as I said, this is up to now just a rough sketch, so things may still change. Thanks for the input anyway!

Rad
2007-05-27, 08:25 AM
The simple answer is to get only 3 levels of straight cleric and then get a PrC that gives you full casting (but does not count as multiclassing). Consider also PrCs that give you some casting instead of added caster levels.

Just as an example:
Barbarian 4, fighter 2, tempest 5 (get weapon focus at lvl 9), divine crusader 9
gives you 8th level spells (even if from one domain only).
Obviously, you're going to need some wisdom to prepare those high level spells; remember that objects count for that. starting wis 12 + (periapt of wisdom +6) would do the trick. Once you are at a level that will require high wisdom, those objects will not be expensive.
Putting something like Holy Liberator (Iron Will at level 9) bypasses that, and gives you full BAB.

In any case, even straight cleric, practiced spellcaster (Complete Arcane) will help in rising your CL for all those low-level buffs you'll be casting. it is probably in for your 12th level feat. This leaves your 9th level feat for anything required from the divine PrC.

Hallavast
2007-05-27, 08:39 AM
The simple answer is to get only 3 levels of straight cleric and then get a PrC that gives you full casting (but does not count as multiclassing). Consider also PrCs that give you some casting instead of added caster levels.

Just as an example:
Barbarian 4, fighter 2, tempest 5 (get weapon focus at lvl 9), divine crusader 9



I thought you were suggesting 3 levels of cleric?:smallconfused:

Citizen Joe
2007-05-27, 08:45 AM
First, why do people always suggest level 20 characters? :smallconfused: Is that the standard starting level nowadays? Back in my day we had to start at first level.... and you didn't get to pick race and class... and we had to go to the dungeon on foot... up hill... both ways... in the snow...


Any way... why not go for the Orc Double Axe as your weapon. Its useable as for two weapon fighting as well as just single handed.

EDIT: And if you've got a lenient DM, make one end a morningstar head instead of axehead. That way you've got a weapon that is slashing, blunt and piercing. Then you could even make one head cold iron and the other silver (due to softness, I'd make the blunt end silver).

Fronko
2007-05-27, 08:56 AM
A few comments on your comments:

Yeah, I AM in fact considering the orc double axe. I just didnīt think of it at the atart, but when falrin mentioned it, I suddenly remembered. So, yeah, might very well be the double axe.

Then, we are probably going to start at about level 5 or so. I just like to plan ahead. :)

Cleric prestige class is a good idea. I am not sure to take the divine crusader on this one. It is a cool class, but not for this guy.

And could I please get a few more opinions on the two questions in my first post? Unless, they are both correctly answered already. ;)

"Thog mag kaputtmachen" - priceless. ;)

EDIT:
OK, I was browsing my rule books some more in consideration of this character, and one thing regarding my very first (no, actually second) question has come to mind:

I was aiming at Two-Weapon Defense, Improved TWD and Greater TWD. Three feats that grant a total of "+3 shield bonus to AC", going for +6, when fighting defensively/total defense, when fighting with two weapons.

Now, instead of using those three feats, why not just use "Improved Buckler Defense" and get a "+5 buckler of Fortification and major cheese", get that +6 shield bonus to AC, whether fighting offenseively or defensively together with any other bonus you can get with that buckler, while STILL fighting with two weapons just as before?

Is there any reason to pick those three feats over one feat + cool buckler?

Hallavast
2007-05-27, 09:09 AM
And could I please get a few more opinions on the two questions in my first post? Unless, they are both correctly answered already. ;)

"Thog mag kaputtmachen" - priceless. ;)

Yeah they're good. The movement stacks as well as the ac bonuses. :smallwink:

Citizen Joe
2007-05-27, 09:19 AM
I think you may need to spend a feet on exotic weapon proficiency (Orc Double Axe). That's gonna suck with only two feats (1 at 1st and 1 at 3rd).

Fronko
2007-05-27, 09:24 AM
Oh, ok, didnīt think of exotic weapon. Ah, well, maybe I can talk my DM into allowing that for free, he is a cool guy ususally, when it comes to that kind of thing. :) Actually, I think, I might trade in proficiency of the double axe for proficienacy with any ranged weapon.

Otherwise, Iīll stick to my battle axe, morning star combo. :)

Indon
2007-05-27, 10:58 AM
Interesting houserule, but what about feats that require Impr. TWF ec, and rangers levels 6th and 11th?

For the first point, treat them as TWF requirements combined with BAB requirements; +6 and +11, namely.

For the Ranger, they'll be getting their attacks at that level if not before anyway due to their BAB... but honestly, it couldn't hurt giving them Two-weapon Defense.

Piccamo
2007-05-27, 12:16 PM
HI there!

I am pondering a new character, a half-orc that is going to multi-class in barbarian and cleric and who then heavily goes into Two-Weapon fighting.

Donīt tell me, that it is a sub-par build, for I am going for the fun of it, not the power. I intend to play him as a meatshield/damage dealer with the (later) added benefits of self-buffing/-healing. My questions are the following:

a) He is a barbarian, which grants +10 feet movement. He possibly also is going to pick the celerity domain from Complete Divine, which also grants +10 feet movement. Do they stack or not? Can I get a movement of 50 feet?

b) I am probably going to go through the entire Tempest prestige class (meaning I might also squeeze two levels of fighter in there for the feats). This in the end grants a +3 AC bonus. Do these stack with the "Two-Weapon Defense" feats? The feat offer a "shield bonus to AC", while the prestige class benefits offer a "bonus to AC".

Any other comments/suggestions?

a) Yes they stack. Not the same source or type.
b) Tempest isn't a very good class. It seems cool, but look at what you get for 5 levels in it: +3 AC, an effective +2 attack over other PRCs, and a weak version of pounce (which was suggested in this thread as a house rule).

You have plenty of other options for PRCs which can grant a better bonus. While it doesn't use your domain, have you looked at Warpriest in Complete Divine? You get better class features and it doesn't restrict your character.

Person_Man
2007-05-27, 12:51 PM
You can't cast spells while you Rage. Barbarians can't wear full armor and get the benefit of Fast Movement. Clerics lack full BAB and get mediocre hit points. You'll have serious MAD problems. And the main source of damage from melee attacks is the Power Attack tree, not the # of attacks you get. So I'm not sure how its possible for the combo to work together, even if your DM throws a lot of weak encounters at you and beneficial houserules.

Might I suggest a Barbarian/Paladin of Freedom (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny)? Same fluff, better mechanics. With the Complete Champion Pounce variant, Oversized TWF, and Divine Might, it would work ok.

Fronko
2007-05-28, 04:07 AM
Thank you for your suggestions, I have considered them, but finally rejected them. Still, I appreciate your effort.

I know, I canīt cast while raging, but thatīs been a handicap I have accepted. I am quite sure, I can use the magic I need before and then after I have raged. I will not be the only caster in the group, anyway, so I believe that is an acceptable restriction.

Also, a mithril breastplate plus tempest AC bonuses will compensate for full plate in my book. BAB can be compensated, as soon as the appropriate buffs are available. D8 hit points from cleric compared to D10 hitpoints from the paladin average to a malus of a single hitpoint per level, which I consider acceptable, provided that my magic will be superior.

The point about damage from power attack instead of TWF is probably the only real concern, I have. I am sure, I can still find a way to get through that.

So again, thanks for your input, but I think I will stay with my decision.

EDIT: Please, bear in mind that I am going for flavor first with this char and try to adjust the mechanics to work well within the flavor. If that leaves me with a slightly weaker character, well, then so be it. Still, I appreciate any suggestions like those from Person_Man.