gestalt character

[edwin1993]

ok im currently building a gestalt character for a game were playing gestalt level 6 im thinking crusader 6/paladin 6 on the other side having a hard time with feats and maneuvers. i want him to be a holy warrior story wise. this is for 3.5 stats are 18,18,17,16,15,12 d.m. given

[Rubik]

ok im currently building a gestalt character for a game were playing gestalt level 6 im thinking crusader 6/paladin 6 on the other side having a hard time with feats and maneuvers. i want him to be a holy warrior story wise. this is for 3.5 stats are 18,18,17,16,15,12 d.m. givenWhat role are you looking to fill? Crusader//paladin doesn't really get a whole lot more than crusader with a feat to grab an animal companion. Are you wanting to go for Sword of the Arcane Order, or summat?

Would you be willing to look into crusader//cleric/prestige paladin? You'd go a lot farther that way, I think, and you can find other PrCs to build on the prestige paladin class or cleric (or both).

[DMVerdandi]

I agree with Rubik.

Crusader//Paladin is like taking a warrior//fighter.
Why though?

What I would suggest again is similar to rubik.

Crusader 20//Cloistered Cleric 5/Cleric prestige classes of choice 10/Divine Disciple 5

Take the spontaneous domain casting ACF for cleric.

[Rubik]

I agree with Rubik.

Crusader//Paladin is like taking a warrior//fighter.
Why though?

What I would suggest again is similar to rubik.

Crusader 20//Cloistered Cleric 5/Cleric prestige classes of choice 10/Divine Disciple 5

Take the spontaneous domain casting ACF for cleric.If it's a fairly high optimization table (and it might be, OP's original choice of builds notwithstanding), you can use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to swap out regular cleric's armor and shield proficiencies for other feats, as you like. So it's a choice between cloistered cleric's extras or a bunch of extra feats.

Or you could try out crusader//archivist/divine PrC if you want some wizard spells in there to boost your combat in ways that cleric-only spells generally don't.

[edwin1993]

trying for melee tank holy warrior

[Rubik]

trying for melee tank holy warriorI think our suggestions would lead to a top-of-the-line, sanctified tank.

Anything else?

[edwin1993]

no just wanted ideas for stances and maneuvers that would fit the flavor. were playing in a e6 world and story wise im taking leadership and going to be a leader of a holy order

[Rubik]

no just wanted ideas for stances and maneuvers that would fit the flavor. were playing in a e6 world and story wise im taking leadership and going to be a leader of a holy orderHow about doing a gestalt crusader//cleric 5/prestige bard 1, using Southern Magician to qualify for the arcane casting and the Apprentice feat to put Perform on your skill list? You add all the bard spells to your cleric list, which you can cast from your cleric slots. Use Inspire Courage boosters and a masterwork instrument to inspire everyone on the field, and white raven to rock the action economy? If you're of a dragonblooded race, take Dragonfire Inspiration for more awesome.

[edwin1993]

wasnt the feel im going for kinda going for the best holy crusader not worried about spells the other 3 characters are going wizard/cleric, psion/psichic warrior, and artificer/fighter

[Rubik]

wasnt the feel im going for kinda going for the best holy crusader not worried about spells the other 3 characters are going wizard/cleric, psion/psichic warrior, and artificer/fighterYou're definitely going to have to do better than crusader//paladin, if that's who you're adventuring with, as paladin does virtually nothing for you but boost your saving throws. If you don't want to be an awe-inspiring leader of the light, crusading for everything just and holy and pushing your followers for god and glory, I guess...you just want to hit stuff pretty good and be really hard to kill?

Go crusader//warblade and take Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and Exalted Companion? That'd get you more mileage, and you'd have your animal friend all the time, instead of only 1/day.

PS: Paladin really doesn't simulate "holy crusader and inspiration to all" well at all.

[Grod_The_Giant]

PS: Paladin really doesn't simulate "holy crusader and inspiration to all" well at all.
Unless you go A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin&p=19866804#post19866804).

Anyway, Edwin, let's look at what we've got. Crusader gives us:

Good melee chassis-- good proficiencies, hit points, survivability, all that jazz.
Maneuvers-- you can hit hard, heal and inspire your allies, toss out a bit of healing, even play with the action economy a smidgeon.
Tankiness-- already touched on, but worth repeating: Crusader might be the toughest class in the game, outside a heavily buffed caster. What's more, they can force enemies to deal with them first.


In gestalt, you generally want to combine two fairly different classes-- a Barbarian//Fighter isn't get that much out of the combination, compared to, oh, a Rogue//Fighter or a Warlock//Fighter. Paladin is... fairly redundant in this build. You get what, smite? A bit of healing? A handful of spells to pump up your melee? You can already do all that with your maneuvers.

Cleric on the other side has been discussed already, and is probably the strongest option (as tier 1 classes usually are). You can happily go Cloistered Cleric, since Crusader is already giving you all the chassis elements you need. Move on into Ordained Champion, Prestige Paladin, Fist of Raziel and similar options makes you look a lot like a paladin, even if that's not what's on your sheet.

If you don't want a full caster on the other side... hmm.

Divine Bard would be a big help with the leadership thing.
Incarnate is literally never a bad choice, giving you rotating access to all kinds of neat little buffs. They're also mostly passive abilities, which won't interfere with your initiating.
Ditto for the Binder, although it'd take a healthy chunk of refluffing. ("Vestiges are actually angels/aspects of my deity that I'm calling down to help me!).
Warlock has even worse flavor right out of the box, but a smattering of invocations can really perk you up. Pick up mobility stuff like Spider Climb, flight, and Dimension Door; pick up utility like Shatter and Invisibility; even skill boosts, if you want them.
Scout would stack up well with an initiator, since you're fine with moving and standard-action attacking.
Marshal is starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel, but auras and charisma synergy?

You could also do a dip-heavy thing on the other side-- Paladin 2-3, Marshal 2-3...

If you stick with paladin?... Battle Blessing is your 6th level feat, no questions asked. Take Serenity (Dragon Magazine Compendium) if at all possible so you don't need both Wis and Cha-- you can abandon the Crusader's Charisma abilities, since the paladin gets the same things. Beyond that... Normal melee feats like Power Attack, most anything out of the ToB (Stone Power goes well with the Crusader's Steely Resolve)... Sword of the Arcane Order lets you upgrade your paladin casting to wizard spells, but it adds an Int requirement.

[Shpadoinkle]

If you're going for a battlefield-type leader, you might take a look at Dragon Shaman (PHB2) or Marshal (Miniatures Handbook.)

[chaos_redefined]

If you really don't want to go cleric (although it is one of the best options you have available and also meets your fluff fairly well), I'd probably recommend incarnate. You are Good personified. That's pretty much perfect fluff-wise. Just to be clear, Paladin does very little for you here.

In any case, crusader maneuvers worth mentioning:
Level 1: There are 6 maneuvers, and you will end up with 3 of them. I'd recommend not taking Stone Bones and Crusader's Strike, as they both scale poorly. 1d6+5 HP, and DR 5/adamantine just don't cut it at level 6. That leaves you with Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Douse the Flames and Leading the Attack. Choose the one you like the least out of those. I'd personally ditch Charging Minotaur, but it's up to you.

Level 2 maneuvers: You get 2 maneuvers of this level. Mountain Hammer is good for dungeon redesign and for a lot of monsters. Shield Block is good if you are actually focused on shields. Battle Leader's Charge is good if you are more interested in damage.

Level 3 maneuvers: You get 2 maneuvers of this level. You are taking White Raven Tactics. This is not negotiable. As for the other one, Defensive Rebuke is good if you want to protect your allies, and Revitalizing Strike is good if you want to keep people alive.

As for stances: Iron Guard's Glare is amazing. You stand next to your wizard and glare at anyone who even thinks of attacking him. Failing that, Martial Spirit is good for healing and Leading the Charge is good if you charge. Or if that Artificer//Fighter charges. Or if one of the casters summons things that charge.
If you are making a thing out of attacks of opportunity (recommended), then take Thicket of Blades. Otherwise, take Wolf Pack Tactics and be best buds with that Artificer//Fighter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As others have said, you don't want to go with a redundant combination. The rest of your party is going to be made up of extremely powerful and versatile characters, and you don't want to build something that's not going to be able to contribute by comparison.

There's nothing wrong with gaining spellcasting, particularly for the ability to buff yourself and have utility options for outside of combat. As others have mentioned, Cleric is going to be an ideal choice in both mechanics and flavor, particularly if you go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) for six base skill points/level. I would actually recommend a Wild Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#wildElf), Crusader 20// Cloistered Cleric 5/ Divine Oracle 4/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 10, assuming you can trade Sense Motive for Survival as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and say you visited the Frog God's Fane in CS to get the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle. Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Love of Nature and maybe Aligned Devotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to have Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamgic: Persistent, and get a Reliquary Holy Symbol and a few Nightsticks so you can DMM: Persist buffs like Elation and Mass Lesser Vigor on your whole party, and eventually add on Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.

If you're strongly opposed to spellcasting, then as others have pointed out, Incarnate can make anything better (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916). Crusader 20// Incarnate 20 would be good enough, though I would probably go Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9// Incarnate 20 instead, and bind Naberius since Hellreaver's abilities are powered by taking Con damage.

[Troacctid]

I'm a big fan of Crusader//Incarnate. Incarnates are like embodiments of their alignment, so it's great for a holy warrior, and the class abilities have excellent synergy. (Lightning Gauntlets bound to your hands work great with standard action strikes, for instance.)

If you want Smite Evil specifically, I would recommend Hellreaver or Binder (with the Paladin vestige) or Cleric/Ordained Champion instead, as they work better with Crusader. Paladin//Crusader is a terrible gestalt; you're getting actual nothing out of the Paladin's chassis. You might as well not be a gestalt at all.

[Ruethgar]

As suggested, incarnate is better for a paladin replacement. But if you want to emphasize the leader aspect, I would suggest two Marshal and one Commander levels with a three Bard. Take a Major Celetial bloodline as your first three levels because skill rank caps are for fools and Swift Concentration may be usable with bardic music(afb atm but if not you still get higher maneuvers). Improved Aid Other with the Commander's 60ft range Aid Other is a decent combo for E6 seeing as how the feat improves a non-existent circ bonus to +4 while keeping the untyped +2, a +6 hit or AC to a friend isn't the worst use of your standard action, esp if you are already able to swiftly sing to them using Perform Oratory or Military Drill or some such rousing speech thing. It is more flavor than power, I would suggest Cleric of course for the power of your group.