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The Vorpal Tribble
2007-05-27, 08:14 AM
Ok, I've searched all over but I can't seem to find the specifics, even in Stormwrack. Can you cast a spell with a verbal component underwater if you are not aquatic or amphibious?

Renx
2007-05-27, 08:20 AM
Water Breathing, amulet of freedom, air bubble etc.

Otherwise no.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-27, 08:28 AM
Maybe give a deafness-esque spell failure chance?

Hallavast
2007-05-27, 08:31 AM
Water Breathing, amulet of freedom, air bubble etc.

Otherwise no.

I'm not refuting your claim, but can you post the page number (and book) for reference, please?

goat
2007-05-27, 08:31 AM
Oh, that's awesome. Water Breathing requires a verbal component.

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-27, 08:33 AM
There's a feat in Stormwrack that lets you use bardic music underwater; you already knew that (I assume), but it does set a precedent.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-05-27, 08:36 AM
Oh, that's awesome. Water Breathing requires a verbal component.
Ain't it just?


I'm not refuting your claim, but can you post the page number (and book) for reference, please?
I second this.


There's a feat in Stormwrack that lets you use bardic music underwater; you already knew that (I assume), but it does set a precedent.
Aye, had taken it into consideration, but thought perhaps singing was a bit more involved than speaking some words of power. I can speak intelligibly underwater myself.

The Glyphstone
2007-05-27, 08:36 AM
There's also a similar precedent in the rules for Breath weapons - they can be used underwater, but unless said creature has water breathing, they immediately begin to drown after the attack.

Saph
2007-05-27, 09:01 AM
It's something I wondered about as well, but I couldn't find any specifics either. So it's up to the DM.

Potentially very nasty for a low-Strength spellcaster - you go underwater, can't cast any spells, can't make your Swim checks, and drown.

- Saph

martyboy74
2007-05-27, 10:24 AM
I'd say that that can pull one spell off (no longer than a full-round casting time), and start drowning the round after. In other words, if you don't get out immediately after casting the spell (read: teleport/dimension door/water breathing/etc.), you're screwed.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-27, 10:47 AM
There's a feat in Stormwrack that lets you use bardic music underwater; you already knew that (I assume), but it does set a precedent.Maybe, but bardic music works based off of others hearing your songs, but spells simply require you to speak the words. That someone else can't understand them isn't really an issue. That said, I'm still not sure which way I'd call it if it actually came up in a game.

Bloodlust
2007-05-27, 11:01 AM
I'd say that that can pull one spell off (no longer than a full-round casting time), and start drowning the round after. In other words, if you don't get out immediately after casting the spell (read: teleport/dimension door/water breathing/etc.), you're screwed.

You are forcing air out, which prevents the water from getting in. How does that constitute drowning?

JadedDM
2007-05-27, 11:07 AM
There were rules for this, back in 2E. From Of Ships and the Sea, it reads:

"Before a spellcaster can use a spell that requires a verbal component, he must freely articulate the necessary words and phrases. Submerged spellcasters find the task impossible without some form of appropriate magical assistance, as the short, burbled sound that emerges from an unassisted hero attempting to speak proves insufficient to cast a spell.

To cast spells with verbal components underwater, all spellcasters must use a magical item or spell that generates a field of air (such as an airy water spell or a helm of underwater action) or otherwise allows them to speak freely while submerged. DMs should note that, while the potion of water breathing and water breathing spell allow users to breathe underwater, they do not allow speech or the casting of spells with verbal components."

There was also a new spell in the book, the 7th level Watery Adaptation which allowed a person to breathe, speak, and cast spells under water.

Poppatomus
2007-05-27, 11:29 AM
There were rules for this, back in 2E. From Of Ships and the Sea, it reads:

"Before a spellcaster can use a spell that requires a verbal component, he must freely articulate the necessary words and phrases. Submerged spellcasters find the task impossible without some form of appropriate magical assistance, as the short, burbled sound that emerges from an unassisted hero attempting to speak proves insufficient to cast a spell.

To cast spells with verbal components underwater, all spellcasters must use a magical item or spell that generates a field of air (such as an airy water spell or a helm of underwater action) or otherwise allows them to speak freely while submerged. DMs should note that, while the potion of water breathing and water breathing spell allow users to breathe underwater, they do not allow speech or the casting of spells with verbal components."

There was also a new spell in the book, the 7th level Watery Adaptation which allowed a person to breathe, speak, and cast spells under water.

you have the source on your side, but I am not sure I buy that completely. What about merfolk sorcerors, for instance, or any of a number of underwater creatures that have intellect. They speak languages that are designed to be used underwater, why wouldn't they be able to cast in/with those languages?

factotum
2007-05-27, 11:32 AM
Wouldn't the Silent Spell metamagic feat allow this to happen? OK, it raises the effective level of the spell by one, but if you're planning a lengthy sojourn underwater you're probably expecting a few difficulties like that.

Of course, if you happen to have just fallen in the water and are desperately trying to cast Fly to get out, the situation is a little different! :smallamused:

Archonic Energy
2007-05-27, 11:34 AM
You are forcing air out, which prevents the water from getting in. How does that constitute drowning?

because once you've forced the air out of your lungs via your voice box. you have no air & when you breath in again it's gonna be liquid... which your lungs are not designed to process correctly hence the drowning.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-27, 11:55 AM
Water Breathing, amulet of freedom, air bubble etc.

Otherwise no.

Water Breathing does not allow you to speak in a strong voice, which is required for verbal components.

Learning an aquatic language seems to be the easiest (cheapest) way of casting spells with verbal components under water, unless your DM wants to house rule it into Water Breathing.

Hallavast
2007-05-27, 12:01 PM
you have the source on your side, but I am not sure I buy that completely. What about merfolk sorcerors, for instance, or any of a number of underwater creatures that have intellect. They speak languages that are designed to be used underwater, why wouldn't they be able to cast in/with those languages?

Why are you so sure that merfolk could be spellcasters? This is second edition, you know. :smallwink:

Poppatomus
2007-05-27, 12:06 PM
Why are you so sure that merfolk could be spellcasters? This is second edition, you know. :smallwink:

because who else is out there stealing voices and summoning anthropomorphic crabs?:smallbiggrin:

Were I DMing a campaign though, I would probably go with the "no verbal components underwater" idea with the exception of a character that spoke an aquatic language. Not sure if that's valid (are the words of power the same regardless of language? can terrestrial creatures taking Aquan actually speak it underwater?) but it would seem logical they could at least get out a full round action worth of words.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-05-27, 01:11 PM
I'd say they get off one verbal spell, then have to start making Constitution checks, then begin drowning when they fail those.

JadedDM
2007-05-27, 02:23 PM
you have the source on your side, but I am not sure I buy that completely. What about merfolk sorcerors, for instance, or any of a number of underwater creatures that have intellect. They speak languages that are designed to be used underwater, why wouldn't they be able to cast in/with those languages?

In 2E, it is always assumed that the PCs are human or demi-human (elf, gnome, dwarf, halfling, or half-elf). The rules I quoted were under the assumption that the PCs would be among these races. Under normal circumstances, merfolk and other intelligent marine creatures are not playable. If I was running an undersea campaign with undersea races, though, I would probably rule they can cast spells underwater innately.

(Although Hallavast is correct, there are no merfolk wizards. I imagine it would be quite difficult with soggy components and a wet spellbook anyway. There are merfolk priests, though (shamans, to be exact). Presumably, they have the innate ability to cast spells underwater, just like they can mysteriously communicate with each other verbally under the sea.)

I actually once ran a naval campaign and the party spent a good deal of their time underwater. To get around the innate problems with this, I gave the casters little magical trinkets that allowed them to cast underwater. The mage also had special spells to keep his spellbook and components from getting wet.

Fizban
2007-05-27, 03:06 PM
Here's a question: since the necklace of adaptation wraps you in your own shell of air, does it protect against pressure damage?

If it actually keeps such a shell maintained, then there is no water touching you, and so no pressure to take damage from. Spacesuit and submarine combined.

RAI (rules as intended) it probably doesn't, as items that specifically prevent pressure damage are much more expensive.

As for the question at hand, I'd say give the 20% deafness failure chance, and they start drowning after the first spell.

JadedDM
2007-05-27, 03:35 PM
Here's a question: since the necklace of adaptation wraps you in your own shell of air, does it protect against pressure damage?

Well, it does in 2E, according to Of Ships and the Sea. I don't know if they would have changed it in 3E, though.