What alignment is this character?

[Zhentarim]

Addendum:

I will make her a duel-cursed oracle with the Juju mystery instead of an investigator, since I feel like I can push her a little bit more towards CE that way. Chelia has the Deaf and Tongues curses, and he Tongues (Abyssal) curse never improves. She can only read lips, and the tongues curse means she can only read abyssal during combat.

The text now reads as:

Personality (moreso at level 1, but with hints towards future development):

Chelia Icethorne cares predominently about acquiring wealth and enjoying and maintaining her personal freedom, though she finds it amusing to create minor inconveniences and trouble for others--usually according to some arbitrary theme she chose that day. She is careful to observe the outcome from the shadows, claiming innocence if she is found. She is curious but cautious in the world. She will (usually) not harm others publicly, since that could lead to reprisal by those more powerful than herself, but she does not care if others are harmed, and may even spectate a crime from afar as entertainment and/or get inspiration. She flouts the laws of the land and can't contain her laughter when she thinks of somebody limiting themselves with concepts like 'honor' or a personal code. When told she cannot do something by an authority figure, she views it as a fun challenge. "How can I defy this person and not get caught," she thinks, once she decides a rule is arbitrary and not foolishly dangerous. She takes great amusement in causing distress in others. For example, if she read on the lips of some cleric an absurd religious law such as "My diety does not allow me to eat meat from pigs," she would be tempted to take pork and see if she could get the cleric to carelessly eat it, especially if she is sure the cleric didn't know her or see her when he said that. Upon completion, she would find some innocent-sounding way to mention in writing there was pork in the dish, then watch to see what the cleric's reaction is. She doesn't involve herself in the affairs of others unless she senses an opportunity to help herself by doing so, or if there is a chance for some amusement. Though she is not a joiner and prefers to be alone, she will join and not harm (much) an adventuring party if it is destined for distant lands and/or she can work with them to get a large bounty. Travel excites her. Again, she will work with others if she believes there will be a personal benefit to her. Once her 'friends' are no longer useful, she can always pick them off one-by-one when they are alone later on. After all, after adventuring with somebody, you know their weaknesses and have usually grown in power yourself. That said, she prefers to focus on those who are strangers when picking her targets, and will not harm those who stand to make her a very rich human. As an archer and an oracle, she prefers to strike from the shadows and when she is sure she will not get caught, perhaps spying on who she is going to attack for a few days to decide the best time to strike. Though the aquisition of wealth is her primary goal, she will desire more and more to exercise power over weaker creatures because doing so affirms her own sense of growing power. She feels this way because she grew up poor, and felt the people in power used laws because they weren't cunning or charming enough to go it alone. She believes it to be unwise to give up any of her freedom, since she believes freedom is what allows her to enjoy the wealth she gains.

Note: She will only actually kill people if she weighs the benefits vs the cons, ie, I will pm the DM of the game and privately discuss potential consequences if she did different things and ask if it is overly disruptive to the game. If it is too disruptive or risky, I won't make Chelia do it.

Backstory: Chelia Icethorne grew up poor and learned she had to rely on herself after she saw the local authorities could not be trusted. On top of that, she was born deaf, and was bullied by her fellow children because of this. One night, a demonic spirit came to her in a dream and offered her great power, knowing Chelia's moral compass already garunteed a new soul for the abyss, and that it would be amusing to watch Chelia wreak havoc in her mortal life. Chelia accepted and became and oracle, but from then on, she was unable to read anybody's lips when under stress unless they were speaking abyssal, which is rare.

[stanprollyright]

Chaotic Neutral.

[Strigon]

When you say usually not harm others, does that mean "if it can be helped", or "unless the situation is dire"?
For example, would she harm someone who was stopping her from finishing a lucrative job, but wasn't a personal threat, would she fight or drop it?

If she'd harm them, I say CE. If not, CN.

[Zhentarim]

When you say usually not harm others, does that mean "if it can be helped", or "unless the situation is dire"?
For example, would she harm someone who was stopping her from finishing a lucrative job, but wasn't a personal threat, would she fight or drop it?

If she'd harm them, I say CE. If not, CN.

She would consider her odds of taking that person down, the potential consequences, then decide whether or not killing that person is worth it. I would thus say "if it can be helped."

[Strigon]

She would consider her odds of taking that person down, the potential consequences, then decide whether or not killing that person is worth it. I would thus say "if it can be helped."

Probably CE.
If the only thing stopping her from being a murderer is whether or not she can get away with it, I think that's pretty clear-cut Evil.

Edit:
Maybe NE, actually - honestly, there isn't much info to go off of, as far as the Lawful/Chaotic axis goes.

[Geddy2112]

My character cares predominently about acquiring wealth
Could be any alignment.


and enjoying and maintaining her personal freedom.
Chaotic


She is curious but cautious in the world.
Could be any alignment.


She will (usually) not harm others, since that could lead to reprisal by those more powerful than herself, but she does not care if others are harmed, and may even spectate a crime from afar as entertainment.
Generally not harming others but not caring about others is morally neutral. Not harming others because you might get punished leans chaotic and a bit evil. Spectating a crime for entertainment is almost always chaotic, but might be evil/good depending on the crime and circumstances.


She doesn't involve herself in the affairs of others unless she senses an opportunity to help herself by doing so.
Letting others do what they want is chaotic. Being in it for yourself is usually chaotic and more often evil than good, but it could be any alignment.


She is not a joiner and prefers to be alone, but she will work with others, again, if she believes there will be a personal benefit to her.
Chaotic. Again, serving ones own interests is usually chaotic and prone to evil, but it could be any.

Lots of C, and more potential for E than G. Chaotic neutral, but closer to evil than good.

[Zhentarim]

I was going for CE with across the board high mental stats, more than likely an STR and Con of 12, and DEX as the dump (though no lower than 8). I figured a smart, wise, charismatic CE wouldn't randomly kill whoever, even if they would like to. I was probably going to do her as an investigator (pathfinder class).

[Strigon]

I was going for CE with across the board high mental stats, more than likely an STR and Con of 12, and DEX as the dump (though no lower than 8). I figured a smart, wise, charismatic CE wouldn't randomly kill whoever, even if they would like to. I was probably going to do her as an investigator (pathfinder class).

Well done!
You've already made your character among the top 10% most believable CE characters; Red Fel would be proud :smallbiggrin:

[Zhentarim]

Well done!
You've already made your character among the top 10% most believable CE characters; Red Fel would be proud :smallbiggrin:

Thank you! It took a lot of thought to eke her out.

[Eldonauran]

I'm in agreement with the others. Could either be solidly CN or slightly CE. I'm a game of mine, I'd start you CN until you fully fleshed out the character's personality and expanded on her actions while roleplaying. Then you can start worrying about Smite and other alignment based attacks.

:smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

Evil. Every character is either Evil or Evil In Denial. Even Paladins. Especially Paladins.

Seriously, I'm going to make this my default answer to every time someone asks this question.

... Ugh, okay, fine. Let's have a look.


My character cares predominently about acquiring wealth and enjoying and maintaining her personal freedom.

Greed is not alignment-charged. Personal freedom leans Chaotic/Neutral on the C-L spectrum.


She is curious but cautious in the world.

No charge.


She will (usually) not harm others (1), since that could lead to reprisal by those more powerful than herself (2), but she does not care if others are harmed (3), and may even spectate a crime from afar as entertainment. (4)

Okay, let's parse that one. (1) suggests leaning Good/Neutral on the G-E spectrum, (2) places the character more firmly Neutral, (3) indicates apathy, which tends Neutral, and (4) indicates occasional sadism, which leans Neutral/Evil. I'd say it washes at Neutral on the G-E spectrum.


She doesn't involve herself in the affairs of others unless she senses an opportunity to help herself by doing so.

Rational self-interest lacks a charge, could lean Neutral.


She is not a joiner and prefers to be alone, but she will work with others, again, if she believes there will be a personal benefit to her.

See above, rational self-interest, leaning Neutral.

Her G-E alignment seems fairly Neutral, her C-L alignment seems Neutral, leaning Chaotic. Really, you haven't told us as much about her as you think you have; these are a few personality traits, not generally enough to pin down an alignment.

[Zhentarim]

Evil. Every character is either Evil or Evil In Denial. Even Paladins. Especially Paladins.

Seriously, I'm going to make this my default answer to every time someone asks this question.

... Ugh, okay, fine. Let's have a look.



Greed is not alignment-charged. Personal freedom leans Chaotic/Neutral on the C-L spectrum.



No charge.



Okay, let's parse that one. (1) suggests leaning Good/Neutral on the G-E spectrum, (2) places the character more firmly Neutral, (3) indicates apathy, which tends Neutral, and (4) indicates occasional sadism, which leans Neutral/Evil. I'd say it washes at Neutral on the G-E spectrum.



Rational self-interest lacks a charge, could lean Neutral.



See above, rational self-interest, leaning Neutral.

Her G-E alignment seems fairly Neutral, her C-L alignment seems Neutral, leaning Chaotic. Really, you haven't told us as much about her as you think you have; these are a few personality traits, not generally enough to pin down an alignment.

Yeah, I was starting with personality traits and building from there.

[Zhentarim]

Thank you, everybody, for your input.

[atemu1234]

Well done!
You've already made your character among the top 10% most believable CE characters; Red Fel would be proud :smallbiggrin:

Pretty sure his Red Eminence is Lawful or Neutral Evil.

[Yahzi]

could lead to reprisal by those more powerful than herself
CE. The only thing that curbs her behavior is fear of violence from others. Also, she isn't a joiner; i.e. the idea that cooperation is more profitable doesn't motivate her, so not LE.

[Dr TPK]

True Neutral.

[Red Fel]

Pretty sure his Red Eminence is Lawful or Neutral Evil.

Neutral Evil?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/the_whittler/17012796/24782/24782_original.gif

For what it's worth, I do appreciate a well-written, believable CE character. And I won't say that this character is poorly-written; you've described motivation and tendency rather well. However, even assuming that she's a believable character, I see nothing that says that she's a believable CE character. I'd need more.

Oh, and call me Neutral again, Atemu, and see what happens!

https://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Interrupt+my+story+again+reggie+see+what+happens+_ 540ea7512c9ba704820a2ef3e38e6d0f.jpg

[Strigon]

For what it's worth, I do appreciate a well-written, believable CE character. And I won't say that this character is poorly-written; you've described motivation and tendency rather well. However, even assuming that she's a believable character, I see nothing that says that she's a believable CE character. I'd need more.


Killing people who aren't a threat strictly for personal gain isn't enough?

[Red Fel]

Killing people who aren't a threat strictly for personal gain isn't enough?

https://emptystress.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/white-glare.gif

No. No it is not.

[darksolitaire]

True Neutral. Everyone likes their personal freedom, even those stuck up Paladins, that doesn't tip you to chaotic.

[Seto]

I have to say that most of your descriptions do not point to an alignment. If it helps, she's definitely nongood and nonlawful. A case could be made for any of the other four alignments, depending on how she'd react in different morally demanding situations.

A case could be also made for "it doesn't really matter". From what I gather, she may be Chaotic and/or Evil but not strongly so. I'd say, give her the alignment you best see her as (apparently CE in your case), and see how it feels in play, and whether that was the right call.

If you were specifically shooting for "believable CE", I'd advise you to give her more pronounced Chaotic or Evil traits. No need to make a caricature, of course, but right now her CE-ness depends a lot of how liberal your definition of CE is.

[atemu1234]

Neutral Evil?

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/the_whittler/17012796/24782/24782_original.gif

For what it's worth, I do appreciate a well-written, believable CE character. And I won't say that this character is poorly-written; you've described motivation and tendency rather well. However, even assuming that she's a believable character, I see nothing that says that she's a believable CE character. I'd need more.

Oh, and call me Neutral again, Atemu, and see what happens!

https://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Interrupt+my+story+again+reggie+see+what+happens+_ 540ea7512c9ba704820a2ef3e38e6d0f.jpg

Come at me, Red.

[Strigon]

No. No it is not.

Okeydokeylokey!

Gotta say, I'm going to miss Megamind.

[Ferronach]

Evil. Every character is either Evil or Evil In Denial. Even Paladins. Especially Paladins.

Oh my! How incredibly astute! All characters are secretly murderhobos who rampage their way to wealth and strength so that they can rampage some more and get even more wealth and become even stronger!

I am surprised that Loyal has not commented on this... Probably to busy washing the blood of his white cape so no one suspects his evilness :P

Anyways, back on topic: I am inclined to say CN or CE. For me the deciding factor between the two would be based on how you go about things. If you go about finishing opponents quickly and do things more for "fun" as opposed to hurting your opponents and doing things because you want the shiny no matter what, I would say N with the latter being E.

[Zhentarim]

Oh my! How incredibly astute! All characters are secretly murderhobos who rampage their way to wealth and strength so that they can rampage some more and get even more wealth and become even stronger!

I am surprised that Loyal has not commented on this... Probably to busy washing the blood of his white cape so no one suspects his evilness :P

Anyways, back on topic: I am inclined to say CN or CE. For me the deciding factor between the two would be based on how you go about things. If you go about finishing opponents quickly and do things more for "fun" as opposed to hurting your opponents and doing things because you want the shiny no matter what, I would say N with the latter being E.

The earlier is more what she would do at lower levels, and the later is more her personality at higher levels.

[Ferronach]

The earlier is more what she would do at lower levels, and the later is more her personality at higher levels.

Then I would roll with her being CN and slowly transitioning towards CE as she progresses.

[Keltest]

Okeydokeylokey!

Gotta say, I'm going to miss Megamind.

While cats, scowling or otherwise, are indisputably the most evil creatures on this Earth, I too will miss Megamind and will certainly not recognize our Red Overlord without him.

[Ferronach]

and will certainly not recognize our Red Overlord without him.

It took me a second to spot His Evilness with his noew look :P

[Zhentarim]

Addendum:

I will make her a duel-cursed oracle with the Juju mystery instead of an investigator, since I feel like I can push her a little bit more towards CE that way. Chelia has the Deaf and Tongues curses, and he Tongues (Abyssal) curse never improves. She can only read lips, and the tongues curse means she can only read abyssal during combat.

The text now reads as:

Personality (moreso at level 1, but with hints towards future development):

Chelia Icethorne cares predominently about acquiring wealth and enjoying and maintaining her personal freedom, though she finds it amusing to create minor inconveniences and trouble for others--usually according to some arbitrary theme she chose that day. She is careful to observe the outcome from the shadows, claiming innocence if she is found. She is curious but cautious in the world. She will (usually) not harm others publicly, since that could lead to reprisal by those more powerful than herself, but she does not care if others are harmed, and may even spectate a crime from afar as entertainment and/or get inspiration. She flouts the laws of the land and can't contain her laughter when she thinks of somebody limiting themselves with concepts like 'honor' or a personal code. When told she cannot do something by an authority figure, she views it as a fun challenge. "How can I defy this person and not get caught," she thinks, once she decides a rule is arbitrary and not foolishly dangerous. She takes great amusement in causing distress in others. For example, if she read on the lips of some cleric an absurd religious law such as "My diety does not allow me to eat meat from pigs," she would be tempted to take pork and see if she could get the cleric to carelessly eat it, especially if she is sure the cleric didn't know her or see her when he said that. Upon completion, she would find some innocent-sounding way to mention in writing there was pork in the dish, then watch to see what the cleric's reaction is. She doesn't involve herself in the affairs of others unless she senses an opportunity to help herself by doing so, or if there is a chance for some amusement. Though she is not a joiner and prefers to be alone, she will join and not harm (much) an adventuring party if it is destined for distant lands and/or she can work with them to get a large bounty. Travel excites her. Again, she will work with others if she believes there will be a personal benefit to her. Once her 'friends' are no longer useful, she can always pick them off one-by-one when they are alone later on. After all, after adventuring with somebody, you know their weaknesses and have usually grown in power yourself. That said, she prefers to focus on those who are strangers when picking her targets, and will not harm those who stand to make her a very rich human.As an archer and an oracle, she prefers to strike from the shadows and when she is sure she will not get caught, perhaps spying on who she is going to attack for a few days to decide the best time to strike. Though the aquisition of wealth is her primary goal, she will desire more and more to exercise power over weaker creatures because doing so affirms her own sense of growing power. She feels this way because she grew up poor, and felt the people in power used laws because they weren't cunning or charming enough to go it alone. She believes it to be unwise to give up any of her freedom, since she believes freedom is what allows her to enjoy the wealth she gains.

Backstory: Chelia Icethorne grew up poor and learned she had to rely on herself after she saw the local authorities couldn't be trusted. On top of that, she was born deaf, and was bullied by her fellow children because of this. One night, a demonic spirit came to her in a dream and offered her great power, knowing Chelia's moral compass already garunteed a new soul for the abyss, and that it would be amusing to watch Chelia wreak havoc in her mortal life. Chelia accepted and became and oracle, but from then on, she was unable to read anybody's lips when under stress unless they were speaking abyssal, which is rare.

[Seto]

Well done ! Now she's firmly CE, for sure.

[Strigon]

Well done ! Now she's firmly CE, for sure.

I agree; at first with the new description I thought I made a mistake - she just seems like a childish CN.
Then I began reading further down, and how... frankly sick this character is.

I'd be careful about the whole picking off teammates one by one - if you try that in a game, I don't think you'd get a pleasant reaction.

[Zhentarim]

I agree; at first with the new description I thought I made a mistake - she just seems like a childish CN.
Then I began reading further down, and how... frankly sick this character is.

I'd be careful about the whole picking off teammates one by one - if you try that in a game, I don't think you'd get a pleasant reaction.

She values her freedom more than hurting people, so she wouldn't do it unless the benefits outweighed the cons and she felt she wouldn't get caught. CE is hard to work into a party, but I'd like to try to make it work in a way that isn't bat**** insane or overly "childish". I could see a wise, intelligent, character of any alignment EXCEPT CE. This thread is a challenge to myself to craft an obviously CE character that I could adapt to most games, but not be thrown out/not picked. It may take a while of getting feedback/tweaking.

[Seto]

I could see a wise, intelligent, character of any alignment EXCEPT CE. This thread is a challenge to myself to craft an obviously CE character that I could adapt to most games, but not be thrown out/not picked. It may take a while of getting feedback/tweaking.

Have you read this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446414-No-Limits-No-Regrets-A-guide-to-the-Chaotic-Evil-alignment) ? It's fantastic and sounds like what you may need.

[Spore]

She is sociopathic aka CE.

[Zhentarim]

Have you read this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446414-No-Limits-No-Regrets-A-guide-to-the-Chaotic-Evil-alignment) ? It's fantastic and sounds like what you may need.

Thank you! It is what I needed.