Economics 501

[DragonBaneDM]

Has anyone else been able to come up with a good pricing guide for magic items? I'm DMing Eberron, so trade is kind of a big thing. So far I've just been importing over prices from 4E since I really liked their pricing guide/treasure parcel system.

The bump in the road comes from the fact that I'm shrinking down the +1-+6 system of enhancement bonuses into +1 - +3. So far it's working, and I've been able to give out some cool enhancements that only come in the +2 range in a +1 form but in a matching cost.

I just don't like having to play things by ear when it comes to treasure, I like having a system to trust. I tried putting together a hoard for the first couple of sessions and wasn't sure how many items to include or how much gold to give per level in order to make sure people are able to have enough spending money come time to head into a big city.

What else have you guys come up with as far as prices for magic items go? How'd you arrive at these numbers?

[Madeiner]

What else have you guys come up with as far as prices for magic items go? How'd you arrive at these numbers?

I think 5e went with the idea that you cannot buy any magic items in a city, so it doesn't really matter their value.
I just roleplay any interaction where the PCs try to sell a magic items, knowing that you cannot buy another magic item with the money.

If you are in a desert and there's a long draught, it's ok if you can sell your decanter of endless water for 100.000 gp to a noble.
You will buy an house with that, or a boat, or whatever you want, but nothing that will affect the balance in the combat pillar.
You can't even buy or make potions or scrolls anymore, unless the DM intervenes.

[ChelseaNH]

My understanding of 5e is that items can be bought, but they're like fine art rather than commodities. Unfortunately, there's no good pricing model for fine art. Also unfortunately, the commodity model is a lot easier to understand.

[ad_hoc]

Has anyone else been able to come up with a good pricing guide for magic items? I'm DMing Eberron, so trade is kind of a big thing. So far I've just been importing over prices from 4E since I really liked their pricing guide/treasure parcel system.

The bump in the road comes from the fact that I'm shrinking down the +1-+6 system of enhancement bonuses into +1 - +3. So far it's working, and I've been able to give out some cool enhancements that only come in the +2 range in a +1 form but in a matching cost.

I just don't like having to play things by ear when it comes to treasure, I like having a system to trust. I tried putting together a hoard for the first couple of sessions and wasn't sure how many items to include or how much gold to give per level in order to make sure people are able to have enough spending money come time to head into a big city.

What else have you guys come up with as far as prices for magic items go? How'd you arrive at these numbers?

5e enhancement bonuses actually range from +0 to +3. It was a great improvement. Try giving out powerful weapons and armour that don't give a static bonus at all.

And yeah, in 5e there is no wealth by level. Magic items are meant to be special and actually increase the power of the character higher than they otherwise would be at that level.

Changing that will require quite a bit of work I would think.

[gullveig]

GOLD:
For humanoid hoards, I can get their living standards, see its price on PHB page 157 and multiply that by the number of day you think they could live doing nothing.

Lets say... Six goblins in their cave base, after they robbed a farmer last week, they can live the next two week in poor conditions (2sp/day) or four weeks in squalid conditions (1sp/day). They can burn the money and live in modest condition (1gp/day) this weekend only.
So I could give the goblin pack a total hoard of 12gp.

This is the pack hoard, so every goblin could have some coins for its personal hoard like 5sp to 1gp. I would make this personal hoard a few coins and one or two gems or valuable object (gold rings, silk cloth, perfume, incense, etc...).

MAGIC ITEMS:
See DMG page 130. It contains tips of how to buy and sell magic items, you can use that as a base for a setting with a more active magic item market.

[kaoskonfety]

The problem is Eberon HAS magical markets, you can buy minor magical item at (functionally) the corner store.

The DMG guidelines are great - if there is no magical mart and purchasing or selling a magical item will be a notable touchstone event in a campaign.

But if there is such a place and transactions are more frequent, the guidelines are vague as hell. I've seen a couple threads trying to address this but cannot find any right now... poop.

[Knaight]

Porting over prices seems like a good idea, but I'd be inclined to switch sources. Specifically, economics is one thing Adventurer Conqueror King did very, very well, and using it as a baseline then slotting in magic items based on utility makes a lot of sense.

[SharkForce]

bah. was hoping someone else would post it so i didn't have to go digging.

reliable? i don't know. you decide for yourself. but here's something you're likely to find helpful at any rate:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices

[mephnick]

bah. was hoping someone else would post it so i didn't have to go digging.

reliable? i don't know. you decide for yourself. but here's something you're likely to find helpful at any rate:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices

I put together a list that combines this and some things Kryx posted, which is what I use for prices. Seems to work fine.

[Coidzor]

I put together a list that combines this and some things Kryx posted, which is what I use for prices. Seems to work fine.

What sort of things?

[JoeJ]

You can use the crafting guidelines in the DMG for pricing. Cost of production = raw materials + (crafting days x daily pay for a spellcaster). Daily pay = lifestyle expense from the PHB, for whatever lifestyle you assume most working casters can maintain.

So if, for example, a typical professional spellcaster maintains a comfortable lifestyle, then it costs 5,400 gp to create a rare item, of which 5,000 gp is the materials cost and 400 gp is the caster's pay. If you want, you can also add in 200 days rent on the building where the crafting takes place, or just assume it's part of the lifestyle expense.

This is assuming payment was in advance, so that materials can be acquired and the caster can pay their bills while they're working. If, on the other hand, you want it to be possible to find this item sitting on a shelf for sale, then somebody has to advance the cost of construction. That person will expect some return for their investment, so add another 10-20% (depending on perceived risk, and on the return that could be gained by investing the money in something else instead of this) to get the final price.

[Sigreid]

You can use the crafting guidelines in the DMG for pricing. Cost of production = raw materials + (crafting days x daily pay for a spellcaster). Daily pay = lifestyle expense from the PHB, for whatever lifestyle you assume most working casters can maintain.

So if, for example, a typical professional spellcaster maintains a comfortable lifestyle, then it costs 5,400 gp to create a rare item, of which 5,000 gp is the materials cost and 400 gp is the caster's pay. If you want, you can also add in 200 days rent on the building where the crafting takes place, or just assume it's part of the lifestyle expense.

This is assuming payment was in advance, so that materials can be acquired and the caster can pay their bills while they're working. If, on the other hand, you want it to be possible to find this item sitting on a shelf for sale, then somebody has to advance the cost of construction. That person will expect some return for their investment, so add another 10-20% (depending on perceived risk, and on the return that could be gained by investing the money in something else instead of this) to get the final price.

By the crafting rules in the DMG there are only 4 reasons I can think of that a sane person would craft a magic item. The idea that a person powerful to create a major magic item would do it for a middle class lifestyle is ridiculous.


Making it for your own use
Making it for your most trusted friends
Make it to curry favor with a powerful ruler
Make it on commission for such an obscene amount of money that you're willing to give up a huge chunk of your life for it.

[JoeJ]

By the crafting rules in the DMG there are only 4 reasons I can think of that a sane person would craft a magic item. The idea that a person powerful to create a major magic item would do it for a middle class lifestyle is ridiculous.


Making it for your own use
Making it for your most trusted friends
Make it to curry favor with a powerful ruler
Make it on commission for such an obscene amount of money that you're willing to give up a huge chunk of your life for it.


Why not? Making a magic item is neither especially risky nor inherently immoral. People give up a huge chunk of their life for any steady job. Why not take this one if the pay is decent?

[Sigreid]

Why not? Making a magic item is neither especially risky nor inherently immoral. People give up a huge chunk of their life for any steady job. Why not take this one if the pay is decent?

To me it would be the equivalent of say a world class surgeon working for the same wages as an Office Assistant. Nothing wrong with being an OA, they often are the ones that hold a company together, but they don't get the same pay scale because they're easier to replace.

[JoeJ]

To me it would be the equivalent of say a world class surgeon working for the same wages as an Office Assistant. Nothing wrong with being an OA, they often are the ones that hold a company together, but they don't get the same pay scale because they're easier to replace.

So in your world the assumption is they have a better than comfortable lifestyle? That's fine. I was only using it as an example. Just plug whatever they earn into the formula and work out the cost of crafting.

[Sigreid]

So in your world the assumption is they have a better than comfortable lifestyle? That's fine. I was only using it as an example. Just plug whatever they earn into the formula and work out the cost of crafting.

Well, actually my assumption is that they probably have quicker and easier ways to keep comfortable wealth than enchanting. :smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

Well, actually my assumption is that they probably have quicker and easier ways to keep comfortable wealth than enchanting. :smallbiggrin:

If that's the case, there's no need to worry about a price list for magic items. They're only sold at private auctions, and you might be waiting for several years before something you want becomes available.

Remember, though, that it only takes a 3rd level caster to create an uncommon item.

[DragonLordIT]

In general I prefer to avoid "magic markets" in the way PCs imagine them: commoners selling legendary equipment; this is nonsense, cause a little skilled thief would take 1 second to steal it.
I imagine (in 5th edition) magic markets as places where you can find the components to craft magic items (and so giving a senso to the raw material price needed to craft one) or may be a place where you can find common magic items and may be consumable uncommon ones.

With my players I put in adventures at some places characters that have magic items (from a list I created randomly) and could sell them to the PCs under circumstances decided by the adventure; last time it was a noble that accepted to let them choose to buy 1 of his 2 magic items if they completed a job for him; they were interested and did the job; if they wouldn't have been interested they could skip it. Easy and speedy.

[MrStabby]

So if you want an economic value I would suggest the following approach:

1) Work out a good return on investment in the world, say % return on buying a ship to trade or any other business. Buying land or anything really.

2) Assume that the value of weapon/spell/armour or whatever at market value gives the same return 5 per annum.

3) Work out what CR increase this level of item would let the party take on.

4) Work out the increased treasure return from killing those encounters (so yeah, it is a pure murderhobbo economy)

5) Use 4 and 2 to value the item.

[Sigreid]

If that's the case, there's no need to worry about a price list for magic items. They're only sold at private auctions, and you might be waiting for several years before something you want becomes available.


That's pretty much what I was getting at. You do have a point that uncommon items might be significantly more available except the crafting rules still seem designed to prevent profit.

What I think is that the developers decided to set things up to make it very difficult to craft and sell your way to having a fortune that could be used to unbalance the game. This, unfortunately, means it doesn't by default support a merchant campaign where the adventures don't provide wealth directly but are threats to the profitability of the player's merchant endeavors. The bandits on the trade route are poor and stupid, but they have to be dealt with if we don't want to have to pay a fortune for a caravan guard army instead of just a few guards, for example.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

My understanding of 5e is that items can be bought, but they're like fine art rather than commodities. Unfortunately, there's no good pricing model for fine art. Also unfortunately, the commodity model is a lot easier to understand.I like that metaphor; in both cases you have an item whose value is based upon the person, where the raw cost of production is not likely going to factor into the price all that much. A military man might offer a few hundred gold for a +3 sword; a noble accumulating a collection might drop a few Gs; but a fellow adventurer might give you enough money to retire, or other magic items.

[hymer]

a few Gs

You get your G after your K?

[DragonBaneDM]

bah. was hoping someone else would post it so i didn't have to go digging.

reliable? i don't know. you decide for yourself. but here's something you're likely to find helpful at any rate:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices


Hey, thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for.

[mephnick]

What sort of things?

Mostly just the list of consumables Kryx posts further down in that thread.

I also took his prices for potions and scrolls over the OP's.

[Sigreid]

I don't think it would be out there to have, for example, a blacksmith in Waterdeep that is known to be able to create exceptional swords that never dull or rust (+1 magical). The blacksmith usually makes normal equipment, but sometimes will accept a commission for a custom blade for a lot of money, if you can convince him to do it. They would never be an off the shelf item and would be expensive and you would have to convince him to do it for you.