Reserve feats optimization

[Gamereaper]

One of my players wants to play a "wizlock". He's taking a ton of reserve feats and heighten spell to make a caster that uses said feats to pretend he's a warlock. In terms of power for the rest of the party. We have a Vow of poverty cleric, a devoted spirit crusader, and 2 druids, one uses spells, the other wants to focus on wild shape. I also put in a straight rogue to fill the rogue slot.

He originally wanted to be "something that can cast spells and almost never run out". I showed him the Warlock, but he was worried about not being versatile enough with 12 invocations. I showed him the reserve feats and suggested using the spells "Elemental Dart", "Energy Spheres", and "Glorious Master Of The Elements" in conjunction with Heighten Spell. I told him that he could fill in the gaps with other utility spells, so he's sticking with that.

[Amphetryon]

One of my players wants to play a "wizlock". He's taking a ton of reserve feats and heighten spell to make a caster that uses said feats to pretend he's a warlock. In terms of power for the rest of the party. We have a Vow of poverty cleric, a devoted spirit crusader, and 2 druids, one uses spells, the other wants to focus on wild shape. I also put in a straight rogue to fill the rogue slot.

He originally wanted to be "something that can cast spells and almost never run out". I showed him the Warlock, but he was worried about not being versatile enough with 12 invocations. I showed him the reserve feats and suggested using the spells "Elemental Dart", "Energy Spheres", and "Glorious Master Of The Elements" in conjunction with Heighten Spell. I told him that he could fill in the gaps with other utility spells, so he's sticking with that.

Is there a particular question here? Looks like a reasonably diverse party, with the Cleric as the buffer/healer, Crusader as Face/Melee/tertiary healer, Druid A as BFC, Druid B as Melee (each with casting), an NPC skillmonkey, and the Wizlock filling the 'ranged artillery' role with typical Wizard tricks in his back pocket.

[nedz]

What is your question here ?

Given that there are only so many combat rounds in a day he'd probably be better off with a Ray Sorcerer type of build. Reserve feats don't do very much damage, or anything else, so it's a poor use of the action economy because he's unlikely to run out of spells.

Also, given you have a party of casters: you should consider replacing the Rogue with a Beguiler. The party is short of arcanists.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What is your question here ?

Given that there are only so many combat rounds in a day he'd probably be better off with a Ray Sorcerer type of build. Reserve feats don't do very much damage, or anything else, so it's a poor use of the action economy because he's unlikely to run out of spells.

Also, given you have a party of casters: you should consider replacing the Rogue with a Beguiler. The party is short of arcanists.

This. Reserve feats are a waste of actions. If he's that worried about running out of spells he's better off with the various Caster/Warlock PrCs like Eldritch Theurge, so he can play his concept without sucking.
Alternatively there's a gish build utilizing all-day buffs and Persistent Spell shenanigans.

The only reserve feat worth taking is Minor Shapeshift, and that's only for the temp HP.

[nedz]

The only reserve feat worth taking is Minor Shapeshift, and that's only for the temp HP.

Actually I quite like Dimensional Jaunt and it's very Warlocky because Flee the Scene.

There are a couple of others which can be quite fun in a low op game but they are more thematic than optimal.

[Beheld]

You can Illumian heighten your spells to 9th level, and then you can have a 9d6 fire burst or the ability to summon a large elemental for four rounds as a standard action, and you can do it as early as level 1. If you aren't Illumian, maybe an earthcraft sanctum spell with versatile spellcaster? It should be possible to combine those on a spontaneous divination wizard to get 3 levels higher than your current level.

[Pluto!]

The war domain and summoning ones aren't bad either.

And I can see the appeal of one blasting feat. I mean, you can probably afford to just prepare a couple scorching rays, but the feat adds some security that you won't be caught off guard.

I would think that if he's actually trying to optimize, Heighten Spell is a given, followed up by some combination of nonsense like Midnight Metamagic, Earth Spell, maybe Alacritous Cogitation and Versatile Spellcaster.

And thinking about this, I'd probably try to get some form of spell spontaneity, just so he doesn't have to clog up high level spell slots with nonsense.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Actually I quite like Dimensional Jaunt and it's very Warlocky because Flee the Scene.

There are a couple of others which can be quite fun in a low op game but they are more thematic than optimal.

Do you really need so many short-range teleports that it's worth spending a feat on? You can get a whole lot of tactical teleportation from items for a little gold, and there's the Abrupt Jaunt ACF.

And "fun" is relative. The reserve feats are all really weak, so unless you're really bad at managing your spells you could just buy a few Pearls of Power and be a proper wizard all day instead of a third-rate warlock.


You can Illumian heighten your spells to 9th level, and then you can have a 9d6 fire burst or the ability to summon a large elemental for four rounds as a standard action, and you can do it as early as level 1. If you aren't Illumian, maybe an earthcraft sanctum spell with versatile spellcaster? It should be possible to combine those on a spontaneous divination wizard to get 3 levels higher than your current level.

That's a really big feat investment for very little gain. 9d6 damage isn't much and large elementals aren't that impressive either, especially with a 30ft leash and that short duration.
Maybe it's a nice gimmick for a one-shot game, but if you expect to level at all i'd rather get things that scale.

I think people overestimate the worth of at-will abilities. Normal spellcasters stop running out of spells around level 6-7 if you're not wasteful with them, and there's always Pearls of Power to increase your endurance.

If you really need something weak to shoot every round you can just buy a wand or two.
First level wands are cheap as hell and with the right spells they're a lot more useful than some minor damage, especially if you get Metamagic Spell Trigger and Sculpt Spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do you really need so many short-range teleports that it's worth spending a feat on?
There's something tremendously satisfying about at-will abilities, especially if you're like me and suffer from "Too Awesome to Use" syndrome. (Aka, never want to use limited resources because I might need them more later). Doubly so if you're thinking about more than just optimal play, and want to do magic all the the for flavor without worrying about wasting spells.

[Gamereaper]

There's something tremendously satisfying about at-will abilities, especially if you're like me and suffer from "Too Awesome to Use" syndrome. (Aka, never want to use limited resources because I might need them more later). Doubly so if you're thinking about more than just optimal play, and want to do magic all the the for flavor without worrying about wasting spells.

Yeah, he's mostly worried about running out and then he pulls out "the big guns" if he needs them.

Thankfully this is not a high op campaign. I think the vow of poverty may have pointed that out. In terms of power, he won't have too much of a hard time. He'll use up 1 of his slots for reserve and uses everything else for utility.

Oh yeah, he's a newbie. Forgot to mention it's his first caster.

[Beheld]

That's a really big feat investment for very little gain. 9d6 damage isn't much and large elementals aren't that impressive either, especially with a 30ft leash and that short duration.
Maybe it's a nice gimmick for a one-shot game, but if you expect to level at all i'd rather get things that scale.

9d6 damage and a CR 7 (You can even get huge, but small corridors and not being OP) pet at level 1-3 is ****ing godlike. You would have to be at least level 10 before I would even think of calling this "very little gain." It isn't literally the most optimal thing in the world, but you do more damage than a Warlock at every level under 10, and when was the last time you played a game from level 1 to level 10 nonstop with no change in characters?

[nedz]

Do you really need so many short-range teleports that it's worth spending a feat on? You can get a whole lot of tactical teleportation from items for a little gold, and there's the Abrupt Jaunt ACF.
It's quite useful for a Rogue type rather than a straight Wizard. Say you're a Beguiler who has picked Arcane Disciple (Travel) and people expect you to be the door man. Also, Abrupt Jaunt is good, but you might not be a Conjuration specialist.

And "fun" is relative. The reserve feats are all really weak, so unless you're really bad at managing your spells you could just buy a few Pearls of Power and be a proper wizard all day instead of a third-rate warlock.
I did say low op, and I was thinking of things like:
Bard with Clap of Thunder, who wants to be a bit of a slapper.
Healer with Sickening Grasp: The Plague Doctor; though most Healer spells are Conjuration.

[xyianth]

You can Illumian heighten your spells to 9th level, and then you can have a 9d6 fire burst or the ability to summon a large elemental for four rounds as a standard action, and you can do it as early as level 1. If you aren't Illumian, maybe an earthcraft sanctum spell with versatile spellcaster? It should be possible to combine those on a spontaneous divination wizard to get 3 levels higher than your current level.

Minor nitpick, Illumians can't do the naenhoon heighten trick until 2nd level. As a result, the earliest you can apply the trick to reserve feats is 3rd level. Even then, one of those levels has to provide turn/rebuke undead attempts. As far as I know, only two classes can accomplish this at such a low level: cleric and dread necromancer. As far as reserve feats go, neither class provides all the different types of spells needed to select any reserve feat even with this trick. Neither has access to an acid spell for example, so qualifying for acidic splatter will require additional dips.

[Beheld]

Minor nitpick, Illumians can't do the naenhoon heighten trick until 2nd level. As a result, the earliest you can apply the trick to reserve feats is 3rd level. Even then, one of those levels has to provide turn/rebuke undead attempts. As far as I know, only two classes can accomplish this at such a low level: cleric and dread necromancer. As far as reserve feats go, neither class provides all the different types of spells needed to select any reserve feat even with this trick. Neither has access to an acid spell for example, so qualifying for acidic splatter will require additional dips.

Being a Dread Necro 1/Wizard X and then taking Ultimate Magus doesn't seem terrible, though where you would fit practiced spellcaster in the feats I'm not sure.

On Teleports, honestly, blink vest is available so much earlier, that I would only even consider the reserve feat if you were already a high level character.

[Beheld]

On Teleports, honestly, blink vest is available so much earlier, that I would only even consider the reserve feat if you were already a high level character.

[nedz]

9d6 damage and a CR 7 (You can even get huge, but small corridors and not being OP) pet at level 1-3 is ****ing godlike. You would have to be at least level 10 before I would even think of calling this "very little gain." It isn't literally the most optimal thing in the world, but you do more damage than a Warlock at every level under 10, and when was the last time you played a game from level 1 to level 10 nonstop with no change in characters?
You're not going to be summoning Elementals at levels 1-3

Summon Elemental
Prerequisite
Ability to cast 4th-level spells
Reserve feats are most useful in the level 6-10 range, after that they are just a +1 CL.

[Beheld]

You're not going to be summoning Elementals at levels 1-3

Reserve feats are most useful in the level 6-10 range, after that they are just a +1 CL.

Since I just talked about the various ways to cheese your ability to cast higher level spells obviously you can cast a heightened level 9 spell using Illumian, or a 0th level spell heightened to level 2 using versatile spellcaster, which means level 3 with Earth spell, which means level 4 with sanctum spell, at level 1, though I'm not sure you can get all those feats at level 1, but in anycase you can certainly have it by level 3 and use your level 3 feat to take the reserve feat, and then have at least 5th level spells, if not 9th level spells.

[Segev]

I would like to point out that it is feasible to make low-level spells into command-activated magic items for relatively little money, if you're a caster with Craft Wondrous Item.

900 gp for any cantrip, 1800 gp for any first level spell for which you do not care about the caster level. And that's if you don't mage-lock it: require that the user have the spell on the spell list (or even be of your specific class - e.g. "wizard"), and you can reduce the cost by 30%.

And note, those are the market values; you can MAKE them for half that (and some exp).

A 2-missile at-will glove of magic missiles usable only by, say, a wizard would have a market value of 3,780 gp, and cost 1890 gp + 151 xp to craft.

At 3rd level, 2d4+2 force damage that cannot miss is nothing to scoff at. It's not as powerful as 5d6 to 9d6 fire damage, but it also only cost you some gp, a minor amount of xp, and a single feat.

Any first level spells you happen to want to make "at will" just cost 630 gp + 50 xp, if you don't care that the CL is just 1.

[Flickerdart]

Introduce him to Persistent Spell, metamagic mitigation, and spells that give repeated-use abilities.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How do you feel about homebrew? A feat to add, oh, your casting stat to the damage or duration of reserve feats would be a nice bit of help. Another option is to boost the effective spell level of your prepared spell by a bit. There's really not much you can do by that book to make them more effective, short of serious early access cheese.

Or, I guess, you could just give the Warlock more invocations known- say 15 by 20th level, with a handful of bonus blast shapes or eldritch essences.

(Or you could go full homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325646-The-Ritualist-A-tier-3-crafter-spellbook-user-maybe-(3-5-PEACH)) , I suppose)

[Flickerdart]

There's also the Recharge Magic variant, from UA.

One super-easy thing you can do to the warlock is make it like a binder or incarnate - instead of invocations being learned, the warlock can prepare new ones every day, and have at-will use of them for that day.

Hell, your friend can just play a binder or incarnate.

Or you can give arcane swordsage a try - just make sure to adapt it in a way that makes sense.

[Beheld]

If your DM is going to allow custom command word items or recharge spell mechanics, or extensive reworks, he should probably just allow a homebrew class that doesn't suck. Like this warlock (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Warlock,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)).

[xyianth]

If your DM is going to allow custom command word items or recharge spell mechanics, or extensive reworks, he should probably just allow a homebrew class that doesn't suck. Like this warlock (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Warlock,_Variant_(3.5e_Class)).

It's been some time since I have seen a homebrew class that broken. Thanks for that. (violation sphere expert access = at-will SLAs of gate, planar binding, dominate, modify memory, suggestion, mind rape, geas, etc...)

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's been some time since I have seen a homebrew class that broken. Thanks for that. (violation sphere expert access = at-will SLAs of gate, planar binding, dominate, modify memory, suggestion, mind rape, geas, etc...)
To say nothing of (mostly) stripping the class of at-will abilities, devoting Eldrich Blast to fire damage, and losing cool trademark abilities like Decieve Item.

The Warlock is really close to being perfect right out of the box. A few more invocations and a bit more blast power (I recommend allowing full attacks with it), a courtesy skill point upgrade and they're a fine T3.

[xyianth]

If I were to 'fix' the warlock, I'd do the following:

Increase skills to 4+int
Eldritch blast damage scales with caster level and improves at every odd level
Warlocks get a bonus blast shape or eldritch essence at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level
Hideous Blow is changed to explicitly not provoke AoOs, activated as a swift action to give form to eldritch blast allowing you to make iterative melee touch attacks that deal eldritch blast damage; the form is any weapon you are proficient with, and can change each activation; still considered a weapon-like spell so you can't power attack with it
Warlocks gain the Scribe Scroll feat at 12th level as a bonus feat
Warlocks can choose from dragonfire adept invocations as well
Warlocks can swap an invocation known at every even level
Warlocks have no alignment restriction, and many of the fiendish features/invocations can be refluffed to match fey, celestial, draconic, etc... themes

That should bring them up to high tier 3. Additional invocations could be made to elevate them further if desired.

[Beheld]

It's been some time since I have seen a homebrew class that broken. Thanks for that. (violation sphere expert access = at-will SLAs of gate, planar binding, dominate, modify memory, suggestion, mind rape, geas, etc...)

Your ability to spend half your resources to get the ability to cast out of combat spells slightly more often than a Wizard is not particularly a problem. Also, everyone had at will gate from level 3 if they really wanted it. Gate only works at all if everyone just chooses not to abuse it. Also there are calling nerfs in the associated book. If you think at will calling magic is a problem, you could also just not take that. I choose not to abuse the much worse Planar Binding rules for Wizards in 3.5 all the time.


To say nothing of (mostly) stripping the class of at-will abilities, devoting Eldrich Blast to fire damage, and losing cool trademark abilities like Decieve Item.

I suppose you missed that abilities that make Eldritch Blast not fire damage?

[xyianth]

Your ability to spend half your resources to get the ability to cast out of combat spells slightly more often than a Wizard is not particularly a problem. Also, everyone had at will gate from level 3 if they really wanted it. Gate only works at all if everyone just chooses not to abuse it. Also there are calling nerfs in the associated book. If you think at will calling magic is a problem, you could also just not take that. I choose not to abuse the much worse Planar Binding rules for Wizards in 3.5 all the time.

That was just the first sphere I looked at. One of the others gave enervation at 7 and energy drain at 15. You get 6 Sphere accesses over 18 levels, enough for two expert level spheres. I'm not sure what kind of campaign wouldn't consider 18 at-will spells of various power(up to 9ths even) that scale with your character gamebreaking. This is on top of a 19d6 hellfire blast with 75' range, built in leadership, and a few other abilities. I'll admit that it sounds fun, but I would have no idea how to challenge a character like that as a DM. I am not familiar with the source book though, so I will check it out.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, I guess the player was right. Clearly warlocks freaking suck, since they do the same damage as a reserve feat.
I can't believe all these replies... It's not even a high power game!
Many reserve feats are fine, it sounds like a good plan.
The summoning one gives a decent at will minion and meat shield.
Fiery Burst is very good as long as foes don't have fire resist. The best part is that there's no real way to determine who caused it since it's a Su ability (ie, silent, stilled, no concentration) and has no ray or line or such coming from the caster. And it starts fires.
At will Su teleport is incredibly handy and makes you immune to grapple.
Force Dart is reliable damage.
Acidic Splatter is basically playing a warlock.
The War Domain one is broken compared to pretty much any other attack-enhancing feat in the game, though not an option for most wizards.

The player may find it interesting that if he applies Still Spell to all his situational "big gun" spells, he can actually pull off this concept in full plate and tower shield. The reserve feats don't care if you'd have a 70% arcane spell failure chance if you actually tried to cast the spell held in reserve, only that it's there. And of course, you can use the Su reserve feats while bound and gagged, nevermind simply weighed down in massive armor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Stream- even in a low op game, ~1/2 level d6 will not feel good. That's about 10 damage at level 5, 15 at level 10. Even without effort, the fighter will do that much with a single swing, much less a full attack. The utility reserves are fine, but the damage ones hurt.


I suppose you missed that abilities that make Eldritch Blast not fire damage?
The one that doesn't kick in until 7th level and weakens your blast when you use it?

I can't comment on the overall balance, since I'm on my phone and don't feel like struggling through all the Spheres, but it doesn't feel like the 3.5 Warlock. Not mechanically, at least.

[Beheld]

That was just the first sphere I looked at. One of the others gave enervation at 7 and energy drain at 15. You get 6 Sphere accesses over 18 levels, enough for two expert level spheres. I'm not sure what kind of campaign wouldn't consider 18 at-will spells of various power(up to 9ths even) that scale with your character gamebreaking. This is on top of a 19d6 hellfire blast with 75' range, built in leadership, and a few other abilities. I'll admit that it sounds fun, but I would have no idea how to challenge a character like that as a DM. I am not familiar with the source book though, so I will check it out.

Oh no, he has a level appropriate attack spell for every single round of combat for the four encounters a day but chosen from a much more limited list than the Wizard, this makes him totally different from a Wizard who only has a level appropriate attack spell for every single round of combat for four encounters a day but from a wider list. And yes, that old single target fireball damage that is less than a rogue getting two attacks.

You would challenge the character buy using standard monsters of CR, since this character is not really any better than a wizard at dealing with encounters. FYI, another part of the general material that relates to basically says "If you allow leadership, everyone will take it, unless they don't want to play two characters, in which case they probably don't want anyone else playing two characters, so leadership should probably be off the table" as a list of things to decide about before you start playing.


The one that doesn't kick in until 7th level and weakens your blast when you use it?

You are advocating for the Warlock that does 4d6 damage at level 7 while complaining about the warlock having to weaken himself to 6d6 damage...

Also, for what it is worth, apparently someone bombed the wiki like always, and messed with the class, you can tell because the ability specifically uses as an example a 5th level warlock, but someone decided the ability was too powerful at level 5 and moved it to 7 on the wiki for no reason. Original is here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=40229#40229).


but it doesn't feel like the 3.5 Warlock. Not mechanically, at least.

In some ways it feels a lot like the Tome Warlock, eldritch blast a lot, and a bunch of at will spells if you go that route. In other ways it doesn't, because the defining characteristic of the 3.5 Warlock is being able to do what a character 5 levels lower than him can do, but all day, and that shouldn't be how anyone feels. But I wasn't suggesting it because I thought it feels exactly like that 3.5 Warlock, I was suggesting it because the OP was talking about a Wizard that wanted some at will abilities, and this Warlock feels a lot like that. (Although really more like a Sorcerer, because he doesn't change abilities from day to day.)

[nedz]

The War Domain one is broken compared to pretty much any other attack-enhancing feat in the game, though not an option for most wizards.

A Gish with Arcane Disciple (War) and Holy Warrior would get +1 to +9 damage and access to Divine Power (+6 Str, +1 Temp HP/Level) — though that is the 4th level spell, but you'd be taking the 2nd feat at 9th anyway. The rest of the spells are unimpressive but it's a good buff for a spell slot and two feats.

+1 CL to Force spells also.

Divine Crusader is another option, but that doesn't come on-line until 12th. You also end up with Weapon Focus twice. This is not quite so good.

Shame that this isn't what the OP is looking for, but still.

[T.G. Oskar]

A Gish with Arcane Disciple (War) and Holy Warrior would get +1 to +9 damage and access to Divine Power (+6 Str, +1 Temp HP/Level) — though that is the 4th level spell, but you'd be taking the 2nd feat at 9th anyway. The rest of the spells are unimpressive but it's a good buff for a spell slot and two feats.

+1 CL to Force spells also.

Divine Crusader is another option, but that doesn't come on-line until 12th. You also end up with Weapon Focus twice. This is not quite so good.

Blade of Force adds around +3 to +9 force damage on a single melee attack, which can also ignore incorporealness, by spending your swift action every turn. Blade Barrier is a force spell, so you qualify, so you can at least deal +6 to damage. Also +1 CL to Force spells. Nice for a Gish.

Summon Elemental is, as SotS mentioned, a very nice reserve feat. You shouldn't underestimate the benefit of summoning an elemental every few rounds to serve as a trap detector (order the summoned elemental to bash open a door, or the lock of a chest; if it dies, well, you have deactivated the trap...or if you haven't, you can try again! You can also use them as short-range scouts (you need to be within 30 ft. of them), and impromptu meatshields. The wording suggests they work as if summoned by SM spells, so consider they might get the benefit of Augment Summoning and other summon-related feats as well. At the very least, it's a superb parlor trick, and a sweet choice for a summoning specialist.

Touch of Healing is free healing out of combat, at least to half your HP. It helps you save on charges of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor wands, and you can use it as much as you need.

You shouldn't underestimate the benefit of Sickening Grasp. Yes, it's a touch-range effect, and it requires having a Necromancy spell...wait a second, doesn't Dread Necromancer does something like that already with its Charnel Touch, except based on damage? A Dread Necro can simply use this to promote having a creature sickened, which is a nice debuff because it lowers saving throws. It only works on the living (meaning constructs and undead aren't affected), but on someone that's not immune to fear OR sickness, the combination of shaken and sickened conditions provides a solid boost to other, more dangerous SoDs. Find a way to extend the range of supernatural abilities, and you get a sweet debuff.

As mentioned, Minor Shapeshift is very flexible and can be granted to a Gish. The +2 to melee damage rolls and the temp. HP are quite good. +5 ft. to movement when not in combat, on the other hand, is a hidden gem that isn't always mentioned, particularly if it's +5 ft. to flying speeds.

Although you need to refresh it every now and then, Face Changer is a reliable method of disguise. Sure, a Hat of Disguise is easy to purchase, but when you're lacking items, or simply if you don't want to compound it with your coveted Headband of Intellect +6, it helps a lot. The only thing I lament is that it's a glamer, because it can be disbelieved (I prefer something like Minor Change Shape otherwise).

As other posters mentioned, the utility reserve feats are good, whereas the damage reserve feats aren't so much. At most you get variants of Eldritch Blast (which isn't really that bad if you think about it), but if you have a more reliable method of at-will damage (i.e. you're a Gish, for example), then they lose some steam. They're great for blasters, though, but whether the blaster will want them is debatable.