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OOTS_Rules.
2007-05-27, 09:36 PM
I finally obtained the BoED! However, I need advice. Which classes work well with the Vow of Poverty. Out of a . . .

Druid
Fighter
Rogue
Monk
Dragon Shaman
Knight
Duskblade
Barbarian
Paladin
and Ranger

I don't know who would work with a Vow of Poverty. Everybody from Monk to Ranger are NPCs, and the Druid, Fighter, and Rogue are PCs. I am asking this because I could tell the players about how the Vow gives certain bonuses if they are willing to forsake magic items (The Monk would definately work out well in this situation.) If you are wondering why there are only 3 PCs listed, that is because the other members are evil alligned (Long story, don't want to explain)

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-27, 09:38 PM
Essentially, only the druid should seriously consider it. A druid who is not very focused on spellcasting can do well with the Vow. The druid's spells can grant more or less everything that the Vow does, however, especially if you are using the Spell Compendium.

However, Exalted player characters in a party with un-Exalted characters would likely not work out.

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-27, 09:39 PM
I finally obtained the BoED! However, I need advice. Which classes work well with the Vow of Poverty. Out of a . . .

Druid
Fighter
Rogue
Monk
Dragon Shaman
Knight
Duskblade
Barbarian
Paladin
and Ranger

I don't know who would work with a Vow of Poverty. Everybody from Monk to Ranger are NPCs, and the Druid, Fighter, and Rogue are PCs. I am asking this because I could tell the players about how the Vow gives certain bonuses if they are willing to forsake magic items (The Monk would definately work out well in this situation.) If you are wondering why there are only 3 PCs listed, that is because the other members are evil alligned (Long story, don't want to explain)

I have heard that the druid is good with VoP, as they don't need item to rule.
Monks, however really need those items, and are therfore hurt badly by VoP.

Kurobara
2007-05-27, 09:42 PM
I finally obtained the BoED! However, I need advice. Which classes work well with the Vow of Poverty. Out of a . . .

Druid
Fighter
Rogue
Monk
Dragon Shaman
Knight
Duskblade
Barbarian
Paladin
and Ranger

I don't know who would work with a Vow of Poverty. Everybody from Monk to Ranger are NPCs, and the Druid, Fighter, and Rogue are PCs. I am asking this because I could tell the players about how the Vow gives certain bonuses if they are willing to forsake magic items (The Monk would definately work out well in this situation.) If you are wondering why there are only 3 PCs listed, that is because the other members are evil alligned (Long story, don't want to explain)

I'd probably only do it with the Druid, if at all. It looks good on paper for Monks, but it really screws them over if, say, the enemy can fly - no way for a Monk to get to them without magic items or a decent ranged weapon. Druid can still Wild Shape into something that can fly in that situation, plus they can cast spells already, which is powerful in and of itself. Still, though, since they do typically fight unarmed, Monks do get a little more out of it than a lot of other classes.

Everything else on that list besides Druid and sometimes Monk tends to really need decent magical gear, be it weapon, armor, or various other magic items.

EDIT: Simu'd!

Catch
2007-05-27, 09:43 PM
Honestly, if you're getting treasure according to the Wealth By Level guidelines, Vow of Poverty is actually a poor choice for a feat. Druids are okay with VoP, but you're better off with lewts.

TSGames
2007-05-27, 09:57 PM
Certainly, you are correct, sir. The feat works very well with monks. I hear from some reliable sources that a druid can also benefit from the feat to an equally great degree. I do not see the feat working well with anything else on the list, especially those classes that typically utilize non-natural weapons for combat(Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, etc.)

Also, keep in mind the feat looses some of its value the later it is taken. For example, if the feat is taken at second level then the character does not receive the bonus feat usually granted at first level. The sooner the feat is taken the better for the character.

The_Snark
2007-05-27, 10:01 PM
Vow of Poverty is not actually all that good for monks. The initial thought is that of course, it would be—monks don't need weapons or armor. They still use magic items, though, just as much as most other classes. Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Mighty Fists, Monk's Belts... sure, a Vow of Poverty hurts a fighter or cleric a bit more than it does the monk, but it doesn't work especially well with the monk crunch-wise. (Flavor-wise, perfect for a good monk.)

It does work reasonably well with a druid, since druids often spend much of their time in Wild Shape, when they can't use most items anyway.

Indon
2007-05-27, 10:06 PM
Rather than focus on 'VoP makes X class unilaterally more powerful', I'll explore viability in general.

I'd definitely exclude any ranged class; a composite ranged weapon is far too expensive for a VoP character to own, basically limiting any VoP character's ranged contribution to a sling... probably with rocks instead of bullets, to avoid the penalty.

I'd also exclude any class reliant on melee weapons. You'd basically be limited to a Quarterstaff, or simillarly extremely cheap weapon. I guess this is kinda viable for some Power Attack builds, though.

A spellcaster with the feat loses the ability to cast any spell with an expensive material component or focus, essentially, so that's a pretty big loss but not neccessarily paralyzing (I'm pretty sure this includes the Druid). For instance, I'm pretty sure a VoP cleric could not cast Raise Dead, as it requires for him to have 5,000 GP in diamonds.

Edit: Of all classes, it's probably best for the monk; they don't outright lose anything, they just can't choose magic item benefits and in return get a bit more than WBL's worth of them.

Jasdoif
2007-05-27, 10:16 PM
A spellcaster with the feat loses the ability to cast any spell with an expensive material component or focus, essentially, so that's a pretty big loss but not neccessarily paralyzing (I'm pretty sure this includes the Druid). For instance, I'm pretty sure a VoP cleric could not cast Raise Dead, as it requires for him to have 5,000 GP in diamonds.Hmm. You just gave me an idea...what about a VoP Psion?

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-27, 10:22 PM
Hmm. You just gave me an idea...what about a VoP Psion?

The Psion can replicate most or all of the Vow of Poverty benefits with powers, and not having access to items denies him such things as a Torc of Power Preservation, a Psionatrix, dorjes and power stones he can use to make up for his limited power selection, items that grant bonus power points, a high-powered Psicrown, not to mention non-psionic wondrous items (such as a Tome of Intellect).

Of course, it would not harm the Psion the way it would some classes, but it is not a great choice.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-27, 11:00 PM
The Psion can replicate most or all of the Vow of Poverty benefits with powers, and not having access to items denies him such things as a Torc of Power Preservation, a Psionatrix, dorjes and power stones he can use to make up for his limited power selection, items that grant bonus power points, a high-powered Psicrown, not to mention non-psionic wondrous items (such as a Tome of Intellect).

Of course, it would not harm the Psion the way it would some classes, but it is not a great choice.

The effect of the Vow of Poverty on the Psion is in line with the feat's effect on a Sorcerer or Druid.

Oh - and the Tome of Intellect thing? Psion will need to wait until the 17/18 border to pull it off, but a Psion with Reality Revision at 25,000 XP to burn can do it all at once - there's this nifty clause that instead of leveling up, you can immediately start crafting / casting XP costly spells.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-27, 11:39 PM
it works very well with the monk.

Behold_the_Void
2007-05-27, 11:56 PM
it works very well with the monk.

Actually, not so much. A monk with the equivalent loot of their level is generally way better than a monk with the Vow of Poverty bonuses. As was said earlier, monks struggle a great deal as-is, without their magic items and with sub-par class benefits for their expected role in combat, Monks just have that much harder a time with VoP.

Bassetking
2007-05-28, 12:25 AM
VoP is a trap, pure and simple.

For the purposes of this exercise, we'll say You're in a five person party. And.... we'll say you're leveling up back in town, from 4th to 5th.

VoP removes 1/5 the total effective party wealth. You, in your role as a VoP Player, have, as per your Vow, demanded your even share of party wealth, and given it all away.

Now, the Mage has purchased a scroll with this most recent haul of booty. In addition to their learned spells, the Mage is going to purchase and scribe a copy of "Dispell Magic".

The Fighter has been paying attention to the rumblings from the NPC's, and knows that the next task they'll likely face is outsiders or Fey. He invests in a Cold Iron Longsword, with his Booty.

The Cleric, knowing her skills are more potent invested in other directions, spends her Encounter Booty on a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds.

The Ranger, also heeding the DM's signals, purchases some Cold Iron Arrows, and a few "Arrows of Fey Bane".

At this point, the party has converted all of the treasure they recieved, but only has retained in remunerative goods, 4/5 of the total wealth recieved.

Next encounter out, the party gets waxed, hard. We lose the Fighter and the Ranger, to an angry Ettin.

We did not, however, lose their corpses, or their gear.

The next fighter to come along? We can equip them with that fighter's Cold Iron Longsword, should he ever need it. We can USE the wealth of the characters that are phased out. The use of party wealth functions very similar to a good homeownership. Improvements build value over time. The VoP character, should anything befall them, has decreased 20% of the party's total wealth, at that point, with no ability to recover that investment.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-28, 12:34 AM
VoP really only works well on those classes that don't need anything. In particular, the druid, the totemist, and the warlock can use it to good effect. Anyone else is better off taking a different feat.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-28, 12:41 AM
VoP really only works well on those classes that don't need anything. In particular, the druid, the totemist, and the warlock can use it to good effect. Anyone else is better off taking a different feat.

Save that no class needs nothing--there is always highly useful equipment.
A Warlock with Vow of Poverty is a terrible idea, as it prevents him from using his crafting and Use Magic Device, which is probably his best feature.
The druid has many spells that override the need for equipment and the Vow of Poverty bonuses... but he can spend his gold quite well on, for example, metamagic rods.

Vow of Poverty replaces common magic item benefits. If you have class features that do the same, those class features and Vow of Poverty will overlap. When you are receiving money, you can spend it on items that your class features do not provide. You do not have that option with Vow of Poverty.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-28, 12:52 AM
Save that no class needs nothing--there is always highly useful equipment.
A Warlock with Vow of Poverty is a terrible idea, as it prevents him from using his crafting and Use Magic Device, which is probably his best feature.
The druid has many spells that override the need for equipment and the Vow of Poverty bonuses... but he can spend his gold quite well on, for example, metamagic rods.

Vow of Poverty replaces common magic item benefits. If you have class features that do the same, those class features and Vow of Poverty will overlap. When you are receiving money, you can spend it on items that your class features do not provide. You do not have that option with Vow of Poverty.

Granted. What I'm saying, though, is that the classes I mentioned are fully functional without gear. Magial equipment is nice (and indeed can do many things the classes themselves cannot), but the classes named are particularly adept at handling situations while in mundane garb.

Gavin Sage
2007-05-28, 01:34 AM
Vow of Poverty is not actually all that good for monks. The initial thought is that of course, it would be—monks don't need weapons or armor. They still use magic items, though, just as much as most other classes. Bracers of Armor, Amulets of Mighty Fists, Monk's Belts... sure, a Vow of Poverty hurts a fighter or cleric a bit more than it does the monk, but it doesn't work especially well with the monk crunch-wise. (Flavor-wise, perfect for a good monk.)

Umm just checking the benfits given by the VoP

Bracers of Armor- Goes up to +8 armor according to SRD, VoP matches at 12th level and keeps on going

Amulet of Mighty Fist- Exalted Strike does the same thing.

Monk's Belt- AC Bonus is only amounts to +1 while VoP gives higher boosts (aside from those I've already spoken of), unarmed damage boost can be offset by buffing strength with your stat boosts. Leaving an extra Stunning Fist to trade for any number of abilities.

Just saying, any other great items to be offered up against what I haven't mentioned?

The_Snark
2007-05-28, 01:50 AM
Umm just checking the benfits given by the VoP

Bracers of Armor- Goes up to +8 armor according to SRD, VoP matches at 12th level and keeps on going

Amulet of Mighty Fist- Exalted Strike does the same thing.

Monk's Belt- AC Bonus is only amounts to +1 while VoP gives higher boosts (aside from those I've already spoken of), unarmed damage boost can be offset by buffing strength with your stat boosts. Leaving an extra Stunning Fist to trade for any number of abilities.

Just saying, any other great items to be offered up against what I haven't mentioned?

Wings of Flying, Boots of Haste, Amulet of Natural Armor/Ring of Protection, which both outpace the natural armor/deflection bonuses given by the vow, stat-increasing items (the stat increases on the Vow come much more slowly), Cloak of Resistance (again, the vow's resistance bonus leaves something to be desired), items that enhance skills (such as Boots/Cloak of Elvenkind for a stealth-inclined monk). Given wealth by level, a monk without Vow of Poverty can usually outdo a monk with Vow of Poverty, except for the exalted feats... but most exalted feats aren't very good.

That said, I rather like Vow of Poverty myself, and I've used it several times. I've wished I could use it more times, too, particularly when looking at the amount of gold I have to spend and wishing I could just assign a few set bonuses and be done with it. It's just not mechanically better in most cases.

Gavin Sage
2007-05-28, 03:55 AM
Wings of Flying, Boots of Haste, Amulet of Natural Armor/Ring of Protection, which both outpace the natural armor/deflection bonuses given by the vow, stat-increasing items (the stat increases on the Vow come much more slowly), Cloak of Resistance (again, the vow's resistance bonus leaves something to be desired), items that enhance skills (such as Boots/Cloak of Elvenkind for a stealth-inclined monk). Given wealth by level, a monk without Vow of Poverty can usually outdo a monk with Vow of Poverty, except for the exalted feats... but most exalted feats aren't very good.

Wings of Flying- Monks have a tough time flying. Course if the this isn't in a totally open area there are work arounds, like with acrobatic skills. And etheral creatures are not bound by gravity either last I checked.

Boots of Speed- Assuming that's what you mean they are limited to 10 rounds a day by the SRD. Assuming all those rounds get full attacks in them that's still not so long. And Monks have a lot of attacks already via Flurry of Blows so the loss is less than would be felt by say a greatsword fighter. More importantly VoP benefits don't expire though, so on that long dungeon crawl....

Stat boosting items- We can argue about where and when they come (which makes assumptions on a DM providing the items) but having an all the items to match a +8/+6/+4/+2 given that item stat bonuses don't stack I'm skeptical of. I only found strength belts only going up to +6 in the SRD.

Skill Boosting Items- Depends on how one builds your skills. I've found maxed skills completely sufficient at least for what monks are doing.

Cloaks of Resistance- Monks have top-rate saves with Will boosted by Wisdom and Reflex by Dex and Evasion. So on top of that +5 versus +3, I'll take that for say True Seeing.

Amulet/Rings of Protection- Amulet of Natural Armor or Mighty Fists? A choice not made under VoP. So you can exceed the armor bonus by 3 (natural & deflection plus the AC I didn't use on the Bracers of Armor before) if both are +5 but sack damage. There's still armor to be had off boost Dex and Wisdom too, plus at this point we can be talking about significant juggling of items and defense versus damage which VoP gives both of.

Orzel
2007-05-28, 04:15 AM
I hope I'm not too late to scream, "it's a trap!"

Most class need or use magic itmes to deal with foes the class has no base ability to defeat. VoP doesn't alwayd match them.

And you can't loot VoP corpses. John and Jim die. You can use John's fiery arrows and +3 bow to kill the dude that killed him. Jim left behind a stick.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-28, 04:29 AM
Take Vow of Poverty if you want to Roleplay a character who gives all his money away.

Never take it otherwise because it sucks.

Vow of Poverty is a way to make some characters viable. It is never a way to gain power.

lord_khaine
2007-05-28, 04:32 AM
i think sating you no longer can loot your fallen partymembers is a very bad argument against VoP.

that said, i think i will agree on, that besides druid a psion is proberly the class that gets most from taking a VoP.
the boost to AC and starts are very nice, and all day true seeing +damage reduction/evil is very hard to come by otherwise.

the problem with normal spellcasters taking VoP is that they must give up on metamagic rod, also known as IwinRods, but there is no such rods for a psion, so they dont lose access to them.

Theodoxus
2007-05-28, 08:37 AM
What about the lowly Soulknife / Soulbow combo? creates his own 'magically' enhanced weapons, including an awesome ranged attack that acts as a composite longbow for his size - which you can apply all the ranged feats to (far shot for a really nice range boost to hit those flying buggers) A +8 to Dex would be really nice, a +6 boost to Con - yummeh. Being primarily ranged, you're not generally overly concerned with AC, but all that bonus ac helps.

Yeah, I can't really see any drawback to using the VoP with that combination.

Talya
2007-05-28, 08:52 AM
Actually, not so much. A monk with the equivalent loot of their level is generally way better than a monk with the Vow of Poverty bonuses. As was said earlier, monks struggle a great deal as-is, without their magic items and with sub-par class benefits for their expected role in combat, Monks just have that much harder a time with VoP.

People keep saying this, but they're unable to substantiate it in reality. VOP grants WAY beyond "wealth by level" amounts of abilities and bonuses. If your monk can fly to start with (easy to accomplish), or if you have easy access to flight through your party, AND if your party is also exalted, you can far surpass anything you'd get from equipment, in addition to gaining all the most common things people want in items anyway. However, if your DM is free with loot, making new items, and generally turning a campaign into a magic-item orgy, and/or your party is rather selfish, forget it.

Anyway, check out my exalted nude bard/sublime chord...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45529

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 09:16 AM
Granted the monk doesn't have UMD so he doesn't need scrolls, wands etc and there is a cleric, druid, wizard who can buff him there are still many things that are needed for any class to work. Potions always come in handy, what if you get separated from the buffer-healer?

VoP is purely a flavor feat that makes it a bit more viable to play the altruist. Sure the bonuses aren't bad but in the end they prove less useful than magic items. It's not just the magic items mentioned, there are many things that can prove helpful! My favourite is chronocharm of the horizon walker for example. Stat bonuses do not go only up to +6, they can be as high as you want. If you look at the rule for creating magic items in the DMG the rule for ability bonus items is squared the ability bonus multiplied by a thousand. so a +12 gloves of dex would cost 144.000, sure it's a lot but at level 20 it aint that much. Also a +5 manual and your effective bonus to the ability is +17, can VoP beat that? Don't think so...

Also weapons, even monk gaunlets, do not just grant bonuses to hit as with amulet of mighty fists. Fiery, keen and other abilities can be equally, or more, useful. Also defence is not all about AC, miss chances are equally good and more reliable. VoP is good in a low magic-low wealth campaign or when you DM loves AMF and mordekainen's disjunction...otherwise it's a trap as was mentioned before.

It's not half bad as a feat, however its usefulness is limited as levels go up. I prefer having my magic items and being able to choose what to buy and what to do instead of having the same character from day 1 to death. Besides, can VoP compete with any weapons of legacy? How about artifacts, even minor ones?

Yvian
2007-05-28, 09:39 AM
I finally obtained the BoED! However, I need advice. Which classes work well with the Vow of Poverty. Out of a . . .

Druid
Fighter
Rogue
Monk
Dragon Shaman
Knight
Duskblade
Barbarian
Paladin
and Ranger

I don't know who would work with a Vow of Poverty. Everybody from Monk to Ranger are NPCs, and the Druid, Fighter, and Rogue are PCs. I am asking this because I could tell the players about how the Vow gives certain bonuses if they are willing to forsake magic items (The Monk would definately work out well in this situation.) If you are wondering why there are only 3 PCs listed, that is because the other members are evil alligned (Long story, don't want to explain)


My 2 cents

I am not going to comment on Duskblade or Dragon Shaman since I have not played them.

If you are going the Martial route you need to become a grappler. It is a form of combat that neurtizles magic swords and such. This knocks out the Paladin, Knight. A Ranger could use a quarterstaff w/ two weapon fighting, but it would not be an optimal choice. Fighters could pull it off if they were careful. Barbarians could pull it off if they were VERY careful. You would want a prestige class that buffs you as a grappler – such a bear warrior. Monks can easily pull it off in the right campaign or with correct support from their party members.

Rouge. Not sure why they would want to take the feat. I mean, I can’t think of a good build and role-playing reason.

Druid works. Sorcerer also works in a limited numbers of cases.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-05-28, 09:45 AM
Um, actually, we inherited our items from our family. Once again, long story, don't want to explain. I DO think the Vow could help everybody because. . .

Sorcerer could be potentially loaded with haste and fly spells, Druid and Cleric also are casters. Dragon Shaman might be powerful enough to throw people like the Monk at the flying enemies in order for them to hit. And who says Pally won't invest in a flying mount? Exalted cohorts could do the trick.

My fighter's AC, 16, doesn't sound like much. At level 20, add a +3 NA bonus, +10 regular bonus, and a +3 Deflection bonus, he will have an absolutely massive 32 in AC.

Add +5 to attack and damage (Celestial strike), no need to breathe, and the ability to enhance your ability scores, and you will know how it could work. Besides, we can let the evil-aligned (Long story) members hold the items. The party rogue has ALREADY used Thief-like contracts to trick them into being unable to burn down cities and stuff like that.

(Oh, and Haley seems like a VoP rogue. She donates her share of the treasure to her father's captor to free him, and asked off no reward from the dirt farmers. The rogue might decide to do the same for his warring kingdom. He already has some great weapons that he inherited from his father.)

Starsinger
2007-05-28, 09:52 AM
Rouge. Not sure why they would want to take the feat. I mean, I can’t think of a good build and role-playing reason.

A Robin Hood type who gives all the money he steals from the rich away?

I had a jerk DM who used to give VoP to enemies we encountered so they dropped no loot. But really? VoP is sort of like Wizards of the Coast approaching a groop of Good characters and saying, "Get in the van, we'll give you candy." Don't be foolish, buy your candy from a candy store, don't get it from strangers :smallamused:.

But seriously, the only reason to take it would be role playing, and I can totally respect that, but still, I would rather role play someone who gives some money away, not all of it.

Well... I guess you could take it in a very low magic game.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-05-28, 09:55 AM
Well, I already had my Fighter, the DMPC (My group thinks it is more fun when I play, but I am the only one who knows how to DM, its a long story) take it. It (The money) goes to his warring kingdom.

Yvian
2007-05-28, 10:23 AM
A Robin Hood type who gives all the money he steals from the rich away?

But seriously, the only reason to take it would be role playing, and I can totally respect that, but still, I would rather role play someone who gives some money away, not all of it.



See, you nailed my question on the head. Robin Hood did not take VoP. He ran around with a bow. Robin Hood I can understand. But for a rouge to give it all away?

Which brings me to a question about VoP. Can you loot your party members to donate to the local church? Can you even touch money? It is one of those odd question of "do you follow the intent" or "do you follow the letter".

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 10:32 AM
My fighter's AC, 16, doesn't sound like much. At level 20, add a +3 NA bonus, +10 regular bonus, and a +3 Deflection bonus, he will have an absolutely massive 32 in AC.


32 AC is in no way massive...my monk has 29 AC and he is ECL 9...without even raising my wisdom i can get AC 33 with a ring of shielding...Fighters are the ones to least take the feat...why?because they're just feat bots for the most part with no special abilities. They NEED magic items to be able, not to beat, that's impossible, to even compete with any kind of caster!

Starsinger
2007-05-28, 10:44 AM
32 AC is in no way massive...

Not to mention, as you advance higher and higher in levels, armor class becomes less and less useful.

DM: This titan has a +37 to hit with its warhammer. Don't worry though, that 30 AC is cute. Rather than avoid damage through AC, it becomes much more beneficial to survive damage, through constitution or damage reduction.

Not that armor class is useless, since there are high CR creatures with 2/3 attack bonuses, like high level rogues, although.. let's see... +15 to hit, ideally you'll be flanked with another +2, we'll say about... 24 dexterity and of course weapon finesse. +24 to hit, not to mention a weapon bonus, we'll say +3 or so. +27 to hit, vs. a 32 armor class? that's a miss on a roll of 1-5. Not to mention that if it's a smart rogue, it would have Used Magic Device to debilitate the target somehow first, or buff itself, like by reading a scroll of Divine Power for that ever so nice, fighter base attack bonus. Not to mention, that most rogues utilize TWF, so change that +27 to a +25/+25... Two attacks with 75% chance to hit?

I'm entirely sure this has nothing to do with Vow of Poverty though, unless Vow of Poverty is how you would get that 32 Armor class, in which case... I sincerely hope you're incorporeal or something.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-28, 10:46 AM
We did not, however, lose their corpses, or their gear.

The next fighter to come along? We can equip them with that fighter's Cold Iron Longsword, should he ever need it. We can USE the wealth of the characters that are phased out. The use of party wealth functions very similar to a good homeownership. Improvements build value over time. The VoP character, should anything befall them, has decreased 20% of the party's total wealth, at that point, with no ability to recover that investment.
As a DM, that wouldn't fly with me. If you still have all the dead fighter's equipment, the next fighter to come along basically has his skin and a set of clothes.

If you lose the fighter's stuff, the next fighter to come along gets wealth by level.

Why?

Well, it is so that it is a bit harder for the players to break wealth by level guidelines.

At 10th, that's 49k.

If I've worked at it so that everyone is at about that level of wealth without breaking believability (e.g., by controlling treasure drops, or controlling which critters target equipment), I'm going to be a little annoyed when one dies, the party splits the loot (in a party of four, that'd be going from about 49k each to about 65k each) and the replacement wants wealth-by-level to start out. It means I'm going to need to cool off the treasure drops for a while, or perhaps up the magic-eating monsters. Which means the replacement character is going to end up below wealth by level as the rest of the party takes what little is there of their fair share while I'm trying to get things back on a roughly even keel. If the replacement character comes in with nothing, then obviously he'll need the equippage... but then he doesn't have any opportunity to switch character types (e.g., can't go from fullplate Strength fighter to leather jerkin Dex fighter) unless I take the time out to write it in.

Why keep to wealth by level guidelines? Well, wealth is a significant portion of character power - be that by way of flexibility or base enhancement to AC, spell save DC, Attack, damage, saves, or so on - but generally does more in the way of boosting offense than survivability. If the party is significantly above wealth by level, I end up with a choice of critters that they will walk over, or critters that will very easily slaughter them if things go sour. The players need to be challeneged, but I don't like TPK's. Thus, wealth-by-level it is.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 10:51 AM
Nothing to do with VoP...i'm not crazy...and yes at high levels 32 AC is indeed nothing more than cute...but for ECL 9 its fine...and yes, surviving is much more important...what is much more important is magic items that make you ethereal or otherwise give you a miss chance. AC is not much at high levels where dragons have a +42 to hit...however, being ethereal gives you a 50% chance to not be damaged. The problem arises when the big bad dwagons get true sight and other spells that can be quite a pain...Mirror image is also a good idea to consider since it gives you pretty much a miss chance...but then again illusions are dispellable...can't have it all i guess...But a VoP character is a good as dead in high level games...

Saph
2007-05-28, 11:13 AM
Take Vow of Poverty if you want to Roleplay a character who gives all his money away.

Never take it otherwise because it sucks.

Vow of Poverty is a way to make some characters viable. It is never a way to gain power.

Well, as Talya points out, it isn't THAT bad, especially if your characters don't have 24-hour access to magic shops.

But your main point is right. The idea of Vow of Poverty is that you can play a low-wealth character without completely sucking. D&D characters tend to be very reliant on their gear and VoP gives you an alternative for those players who are tired of having to spend so much time on inventory and upgrades.

- Saph

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 11:20 AM
Well, you would get a lot of rp xp from it, finding the church to donate, or going around giving it out yourself etc...Also you don't have to donate it just to the poor. You could establish the first scholarship organization in the world of D&D...

Also you don't have to donate everything the second you get it...you could use something you found in a dungeon until you get to a town, turn it into gold and give it away. Or finding the right person for the right artifact...but then you're just abusing the feat:smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2007-05-28, 11:25 AM
Also you don't have to donate everything the second you get it...you could use something you found in a dungeon until you get to a town, turn it into gold and give it away. Or finding the right person for the right artifact...but then you're just abusing the feat:smalltongue:
The VoP character is explicitly not permitted to use stuff.

Person_Man
2007-05-28, 11:40 AM
As others have mentioned, if you're getting standard Wealth by Level, VoP is a bad idea for most classes.

If you have access to the Item Compendium, then its not even worth it for Druids, because there's a magical clasp that you can attach to items so that they work while you're in Wildshape form.

So its my opinion that VoP is never a good idea, unless your DM is stingy about treasure. And even then, you'll have to fend off constant criticisms from your friends about it being "overpowered."

Also, Monk and Dragon Shaman are weak classes, so there's no reason you should consider them on your list, unless you enjoy playing mediocrity.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 11:43 AM
The VoP character is explicitly not permitted to use stuff.

damn...i guess you're left with scolarships then

Indon
2007-05-28, 11:46 AM
The VoP character is explicitly not permitted to use stuff.

He's permitted to use magic items owned by his comrades... and yet forbidden to ever use magic items... *headexplody*

Jack_Simth
2007-05-28, 12:04 PM
He's permitted to use magic items owned by his comrades... and yet forbidden to ever use magic items... *headexplody*
Well, sorta.

He can ride a friend's Ebony Fly, drink a potion a friend gives him, and so on.

But he can't cast a spell from a wand/staff/scroll, put on a Cloak of Resistence, and so on. But he can receive a spell cast on him by a friend from a wand/staff/scroll and so on.

In general, he can't wear, wield, or activate magic items (except potions he was just handed) but can ride or benefit from them when another activates them.

RAW, he also has to have someone else open all doors for him, or bash them down (can't use a doorknob).

A Clerical Vow of Poverty character would do well to find a diety where the Symbol is a simple weapon - dagger, staff, or so on - that the VoP character is permitted.

Talya
2007-05-28, 12:36 PM
RAW, he also has to have someone else open all doors for him, or bash them down (can't use a doorknob).

A magic doorknob, perhaps. I suppose he couldn't use a doorknob as a weapon, either.



A Clerical Vow of Poverty character would do well to find a diety where the Symbol is a simple weapon - dagger, staff, or so on - that the VoP character is permitted.

Clerics could cary holy symbols, they'd just have to be made of wood or some other low-value material.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-28, 01:09 PM
Psion.

I'll tell you why.

No need for material components. Bonuses to INT and DEX, plus CON and 'okay' armor (can be buffed using powers). Extend Power is your friend; as is Quicken Power, Transdimensional Power, Overchannel and Talented. Intuitive Attack is nice if you have a high Wis modifier. Since you are going to have a decent # of power points, Diamond Dragon (Dragon Magic) and Practiced Manifester are going to be win.

Good powers to take are:
Prescience, Defensive (XPH)
Planar Apotheosis (CompPsi)
Inconstant Location (CompPsi)
Evade Burst (XPH)
Damp Power (CompPsi)
Telekinetic Maneuver (XPH)
Catapsi (XPH)

Once per day, manifest an extended Planar Apotheosis (Celestial, duh), then manifest an extended and empowered Defensive Precognition before hitting the big dungeon (that is if you have the manifester level). These powers are also useful because you do not need Quicken Power, if you need them quickly, there are augmentation options for casting as a Swift or Immediate action.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-28, 01:24 PM
A magic doorknob, perhaps. I suppose he couldn't use a doorknob as a weapon, either.

No, can't use any doorknob at all. The Vow of Poverty has an explict, short list of things the VoP character is permitted to use. A doorknob isn't on the list.


Clerics could cary holy symbols, they'd just have to be made of wood or some other low-value material.
Neither is a holy symbol. As written, the VoP Druid can't even make use of the *free* holly and mistletoe.

martyboy74
2007-05-28, 01:29 PM
No, can't use any doorknob at all. The Vow of Poverty has an explict, short list of things the VoP character is permitted to use. A doorknob isn't on the list.



Neither is a holy symbol. As written, the VoP Druid can't even make use of the *free* holly and mistletoe.

At some point, the DM is just being anally retentive about the wording of the feat. The only people who should feats that closely are CO people.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-28, 01:34 PM
No, can't use any doorknob at all. The Vow of Poverty has an explict, short list of things the VoP character is permitted to use. A doorknob isn't on the list.

Neither is a holy symbol. As written, the VoP Druid can't even make use of the *free* holly and mistletoe.

Well, if you take it "as written", the VoP character cannot do anything but stand there nude (well, almost). A good DM will allow for some leeway with the VoP character. He can open a door using a doorknob. He is allowed to pull the lever to get into the dungeon to acquire the magic items and gold that he can carry back to his place of worship and donate. He cannot make use of them, but he is allowed to carry them for donation. A good DM will allow the character to do this.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-28, 01:36 PM
At some point, the DM is just being anally retentive about the wording of the feat. The only people who should feats that closely are CO people.
Well, yeah.

Interestingly, the first part where I mentioned that little aspect I included the acronym "RAW" - technically, letting a VoP character open a door without dire consequences is a house rule. A very good house-rule, mind, but a house-rule none the less.

Hmm.... what's the equipment cost to duplicate all the VoP abilities at, say, 10th level?

martyboy74
2007-05-28, 02:05 PM
Well, yeah.

Interestingly, the first part where I mentioned that little aspect I included the acronym "RAW" - technically, letting a VoP character open a door without dire consequences is a house rule. A very good house-rule, mind, but a house-rule none the less.

Hmm.... what's the equipment cost to duplicate all the VoP abilities at, say, 10th level?

How anally are we reading the rules? If we're reading it by RAW, the disadvantages immediately outweigh the advantages.

Not being able to use doorknobs. Yeesh...

Jack_Simth
2007-05-28, 02:08 PM
Question...Let's pretend, for the sake of the linked strip, that Roy has VoP (armor aside). Would this be a legitamte workaround? Kinda like making sure the pally isn't in the room when you're talking to a prisoner or stealing from orphans?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html

Bluff is a fun skill, isn't it?

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 02:59 PM
Make the VoP character wear the armor -> modify memory -> you are not wearing any armor...

maybe not modify memory but i'm pretty sure there is a spell out there that can do this :smallbiggrin:

Arbitrarity
2007-05-28, 03:37 PM
Programmed amnesia?

All your life you have been my slave, now LE paladin!

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-28, 03:37 PM
Make the VoP character wear the armor -> modify memory -> you are not wearing any armor...

maybe not modify memory but i'm pretty sure there is a spell out there that can do this :smallbiggrin:

The power of the vow comes from the gods. If you can brainwash the gods, be my guest.

You can use a door knob, you just can't use it for personal profit.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 03:45 PM
The power of the vow comes from the gods. If you can brainwash the gods, be my guest.

You can use a door knob, you just can't use it for personal profit.

It doesn't matter what the gods believe...all it matters is that the person believes he does not wear any armor...if he failed his will save that's his problem:smallamused: precisely in the same way you can kill everyone in the room while the paladin is unconscious nearby, modify memory: you are a paladin of nerul on your way to becoming a blackguard...good luck on your journey soldier...oh and clean up the mess you made...then command: go surrender yourself to the church of pelor along with all the heads...

he believes he is an evil paladin....in the same way if you make someone believe through a spell that he has no taken the vow that does not change the vow, that only changes the belief of the person that he has taken the vow...If thunderbolts coming crashing down on his head when he puts on the armor that's his fault again for failing his will save!:smallbiggrin: you are in no way modifying existence, that the PC has taken the vow or anything else...human beliefs are such fragile things...Dominating a paladin and making him do evil things will make him fall...ez!hehehe

*no catgirls were zapped during the making of this post*

Starsinger
2007-05-28, 04:09 PM
Except windmills don't work that way. If you violate your Vow you violate it.. Book of ED is all about players being screwed over by failing to be perfect.

PaladinBoy
2007-05-28, 06:45 PM
It doesn't matter what the gods believe...all it matters is that the person believes he does not wear any armor...if he failed his will save that's his problem:smallamused: precisely in the same way you can kill everyone in the room while the paladin is unconscious nearby, modify memory: you are a paladin of nerul on your way to becoming a blackguard...good luck on your journey soldier...oh and clean up the mess you made...then command: go surrender yourself to the church of pelor along with all the heads...

he believes he is an evil paladin....in the same way if you make someone believe through a spell that he has no taken the vow that does not change the vow, that only changes the belief of the person that he has taken the vow...If thunderbolts coming crashing down on his head when he puts on the armor that's his fault again for failing his will save!:smallbiggrin: you are in no way modifying existence, that the PC has taken the vow or anything else...human beliefs are such fragile things...Dominating a paladin and making him do evil things will make him fall...ez!hehehe

*no catgirls were zapped during the making of this post*

While it might be possible to dominate a paladin or VoP character into breaking their vows to the gods, such magic (with the exception of programmed amnesia) is not permanent. As soon as the magic fades, the character realizes what's happened, does his best to solve the problems that he was forced to cause, and then finds a cleric. Since he was forced by magic to do it, the required atonement only costs the cleric a 5th level slot and the hour it takes to cast.

Even if programmed amnesia is used, if that is ever dispelled, then whatever the character did while under its effect would probably be considered forced by magic as well, depending on what exactly happened.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-05-28, 07:03 PM
In my games, I give a LOT of leeway with it.

FIrst, I don't make it a feat.

Second, I allow them to utilize anything except magic items, and they can still touch the magic items.

Third, you can break the vow if you need to, but an atonement spell can fix it.

NOTE: Using the "Oops, broke the vow, gimme an Atonement party cleric" methood every 5 seconds will peeve off the cleric and cause him to run out of EXP.

Indon
2007-05-28, 07:08 PM
Third, you can break the vow if you need to, but an atonement spell can fix it.


Personally, I think the vow should allow this. Seriously, they created Atonement specifically because screwing up on a vow (Paladin code vs. VoP) leading to permanent loss (Loss of Pally powers vs. loss of the Vow's feat slot) sucked.

Yogi
2007-05-28, 07:51 PM
Wouldn't there be some not well defined but nonetheless there benefit for a character giving away tens of thousands of gp? Not all benefits come in the form of stat bonuses and special abilities.

Toliudar
2007-05-28, 11:42 PM
Well, presumably, the church/social agency/agency of good would be extremely well disposed to the individual. Not necessarily to the point of free healing/services/etc, but certainly providing help or advice in times of need.

Incidentally, I know this class wasn't on your list, but I'm working on a VoP sorcerer, and because her spellcasting allows her to fill in some gaps left by VoP, I think she's fairly play-able. Maybe not optimized, but not horribly gimped.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-05-29, 11:48 AM
A couple of comments:

- What about the 'Magic of Incarnum' classes? Their class abilities take up some magic item slots and give bonuses semi-on par with magic items. Give them the VoP and you may have something good going on.

- Problem with VoP is that it has to be the entire party that plays Exalted. An exalted character in a non-exalted group will eventually either leave on his own accord, or be forced out because of constant moral dilemas and ideal clashes that will inevitably occur.