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ilovefire
2007-05-27, 09:49 PM
Allright, I really prefer the Old WoD settings to the New ones. Right now, I'm Storyteller for an IRC Werewolf: The Apocalypse game. This is my first time storytelling for an oWoD setting. Any hints? Tips? For Werewolf in specific, or in general. I'm mixing every other oWoD setting I can get my hands on, though (allready introduced several Mage characters and a Demon), so i'd prefer General Hints.

Indon
2007-05-27, 09:53 PM
Okay, mixing... most of my experience is in Mage, with a bit of shifter stuff, so my contribution will come from there for the most part. Now lessee what I remember...

-Places where magic is difficult (where vulgar magic produces higher paradox) are generally places where the Umbra is thicker. This also corresponds heavily with whatever that thing that harms fae is (the opposite of glamour).

-Mages have three forms of 'resonance', each corresponding with one of the three shifter-gods: Weaver (Static), Wyld (Dynamic), and Wyrm (Primal).

-Weaver associates strongly with technocrats from the Mage books. Wyrm associates with Undead, be it vampires or ghosts, as well as demonically tainted creatures such as Kumo (from ananasi, another shifter book). Oddly enough, I never noticed any particular correlation between the Wyrm and the demons from the Demon book. Wyld associates with mages and fae.

-Don't ask me where mummies, demons, or hunters stand in that schema. No clue.

Dhavaer
2007-05-27, 09:57 PM
I don't really have any experience with that game; I've only read the revised Mage book, but it seemed that the games weren't balanced with each other; a starting Mage could kill a fairly experienced Vampire without a lot of trouble from what I've seen.

....
2007-05-27, 10:10 PM
My friends and I used to run W:tA all the time.

I find that the best way to run old Werewolf games is to make sure you keep a sense of impending doom throughout. Make sure the players always feel outnumbered, out-gunned, and out smarted. The werewolves in oWoD are fighting a loosing battle for a dying planet. Make sure they realize that the mages and vampires have them beat.

And then when they get angry, let them take out out by litteraly tearing people apart. The other main thing to do in a Werewolf game is to let the players used their insane strength and endurance by doing things like throwing pickups and ripping telephone poles out of the ground to stake leeches with.

LongVin
2007-05-27, 10:12 PM
I don't really have any experience with that game; I've only read the revised Mage book, but it seemed that the games weren't balanced with each other; a starting Mage could kill a fairly experienced Vampire without a lot of trouble from what I've seen.

Not exactly true. It depends on what spheres you pick, but it is possible with prime but in general a experienced Vampire can beat a new mage. Though that depends on the Vampire's abilities and age. Age is very important for Vampires.

But in general heres how it works:

Vampires start out middle of the road and generally stay middle of the road.

Mages start out relatively weak but have the potential to become extremely powerful. This generaly relies on the player being smart and knowing how to use magic properly since there are no hard rules on casting.

Werewolves start out really powerful and tend to stay that way.

Vaniel
2007-05-27, 10:15 PM
I lean more towards Vampire the Masquerade...

The games weren't really built for being mixed, so there's a problem right there.

However, always remember: It takes 4-5 vampires to equal 1 werewolf. If you have a group of, say, 5 lykans, don't send a small group of vampires. No vampire in their right mind will go up against lykans when the numbers are in the opposing favor.

However, it's more likely the vampire will spy actively on lykans, without ever engaging in combat, and will wait while one seperates from the group and send half a dozen vampires after him. Lykans are very strong, but not invincible.

....
2007-05-27, 10:16 PM
Vampires start out middle of the road and generally stay middle of the road.

Mages start out relatively weak but have the potential to become extremely powerful. This generaly relies on the player being smart and knowing how to use magic properly since there are no hard rules on casting.

Werewolves start out really powerful and tend to stay that way.

Werewolves are very front heavy in oWoD. They can usually take out anyone whos low to mid-level, but once vampires and mages start getting to higher levels, its sick the things they can do.

I remember specifically once my pack was fighting a single mage who was comming to drain our caern of magic and I jumped at him, only to start to burn up as he increased the air friction all around me.

Not to mention that everyone knows silver kills werewolves and they're really, really vulnerable to it.

Indon
2007-05-27, 10:21 PM
Werewolves are very front heavy in oWoD. They can usually take out anyone whos low to mid-level, but once vampires and mages start getting to higher levels, its sick the things they can do.

I remember specifically once my pack was fighting a single mage who was comming to drain our caern of magic and I jumped at him, only to start to burn up as he increased the air friction all around me.

Not to mention that everyone knows silver kills werewolves and they're really, really vulnerable to it.

A Mind 5/Life... 3 or 4 mage, could probably say "Bad dog!" harshly to a werewolf and force it to transform into Lupus form and then erase it's mind so that it becomes a domesticated wolf. In such a magic-heavy place as a werewolf cairn, it probably wouldn't even generate that much paradox.

Edit: Actually, the act'd probably require a couple points in the Prime sphere to be permanent.

Dhavaer
2007-05-27, 10:22 PM
Werewolves are very front heavy in oWoD. They can usually take out anyone whos low to mid-level, but once vampires and mages start getting to higher levels, its sick the things they can do.

I remember specifically once my pack was fighting a single mage who was comming to drain our caern of magic and I jumped at him, only to start to burn up as he increased the air friction all around me.

Not to mention that everyone knows silver kills werewolves and they're really, really vulnerable to it.

That Friction Curse thing is something you can do straight off the bat. It only needs Forces 3.

....
2007-05-27, 10:28 PM
Friggen human-but-immune-to-delirium-mages.

Makes me remember another thing I liked about the WoD, that I didn'r realize before I talked to people who played Vampire and Mage, which is the stereotypes that the factions have for each other, including the players.

I.E: All werewolves and blood-thirsty, corpse rending monsters who hate everything and everyone.

ilovefire
2007-05-28, 03:21 PM
Allright, so basically, for the Bad Guys, play to their strenghts. And since I lack Changling, Wraith, and Mummy, those three Do Not Exist in my game world. >>.

A few specific questions, though:

About how many well-informed Hunters would it take to take out three werewolves?

Are there official stats for the HIT-Marks in any of the Mage books?

Where do Demons fall, as far as power level goes, in comparision to Werewolves? I think they're a good bit more powerful than Garou, but I also have more experiance with Demon, so...

LongVin
2007-05-28, 03:36 PM
Allright, so basically, for the Bad Guys, play to their strenghts. And since I lack Changling, Wraith, and Mummy, those three Do Not Exist in my game world. >>.

A few specific questions, though:

About how many well-informed Hunters would it take to take out three werewolves?

Are there official stats for the HIT-Marks in any of the Mage books?

Where do Demons fall, as far as power level goes, in comparision to Werewolves? I think they're a good bit more powerful than Garou, but I also have more experiance with Demon, so...


I would say you want atleast 6+ hunters working together to take out a werewolf. If they have silver weapons you could do it with less but it would be insanely dangerous. You need alot of cooperation and have to keep the werewolves attention divided. If they don't have silver weapons or bullets they would have to just rely on massive damage.

For HIT-Marks check the guidebook for the Technocracy or Iteration X guidebook.

Demon power is kinda hazy. I would say they have the potential to be much more powerful than werewolves though.

Vaniel
2007-05-28, 03:43 PM
Demons?

Holy ****, you ARE crazy?

No demons, no way. Demons are like a gazillion times stronger than any other creature, much like Angels.

Driderman
2007-05-28, 03:43 PM
The thing that many Storytellers, as far as I have experienced, miss in Werewolf is the Rage. Play the Rage, man.
Let them feel the anger, the violent hatred simmering just below the surface. Though the Garou may seem human, they will never, ever be. Their heritage and their rage sets them apart, always threatening to overcome them and leave their human relations catatonic wrecks or bloody, mangled heaps. A wrong word, a wrong glance on the wrong day might bring the full wrath of one of your packmates down on you.
The Rage is what defines the Garou, it is what gives them strength but also their greatest weakness.
Well that, and silver.

4 or 5 vampires could easily take down any Garou, as long as they got the jump on it and have experience with shooting guns with silver bullets.

On another note: Garou are NOT lycans. Lycan is some horrid ripoff from the Underworld movies and the word itself very much suggests lycanthropy, which the Garou condition is not

Edit: You would do well to learn about Changeling, since the Garou and Changeling mythology are easily intertwined. Fianna, anyone?

ilovefire
2007-05-28, 04:26 PM
Van: Well, I probably am, but the game's taking place in Atlanta, GA, which is the HQ of the Cryptics. They'll probably meet the Demons eventually.

Driderman: I want to learn more about Changeling, but I lack the books and I can't seem to find them.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-28, 04:35 PM
A single, particularily combat-oriented vampire could bring down a werewolf of equal experience if he plays things smart (enganging the Ahroun in melee is a poor choice, as his melee pool can and will be bigger than yours). Humorously enough, a Toreador would seem to be the best choice for this due to Presence's Dread Gaze ability.

Indon
2007-05-28, 04:43 PM
Demons?

Holy ****, you ARE crazy?

No demons, no way. Demons are like a gazillion times stronger than any other creature, much like Angels.

Really? I'd considered them more in line with, say, Vampires. Their paths are reminiscent of disciplines, they require humans to provide fuel (faith, rather than blood) to reach their full potential, and they have a couple special weaknesses (I'm pretty sure a character with True Faith can turn a high-torment demon just like a vampire, since they can't enter holy ground or the like), etc.

I'd say it'd only take one decently experienced and most importantly prepared hunter to take out a young garou. It might take two or three to take out an older one, and five or six could take out a smallish caern.

Mind they are unlikely to engage directly. Ambushes with silvered sniper bullets and pre-placed explosive charges are the name of the game, at least at the beginning. Most hunters know not to engage a werewolf in close fighting... though, some might do so anyway.

A hunter who knows about werewolf society is even more dangerous; for instance, they'd identify their human form and kill them in that, perhaps even engaging in public where they know the werewolf couldn't change... without attracting unwanted attention, anyway.

Vaniel
2007-05-28, 04:47 PM
I don't know with you, but the demons I've seen in my games where there before Caine.

Everyones knows Caine right? Right???

It's just me, I don't know for lesser demons stats in oWoD

Indon
2007-05-28, 04:52 PM
I don't know with you, but the demons I've seen in my games where there before Caine.

Everyones knows Caine right? Right???

It's just me, I don't know for lesser demons stats in oWoD

The demons in the Demon book are generally much weaker than demons in other books (and probably have different origins, as well; these demons possess humans and have no physical forms outside of doing this).

Edit: And everyone knows that the Age of Sorrows was before Caine. :smallwink: Exalted demons are pretty scary on the WoD power scale.

Driderman
2007-05-28, 04:55 PM
For more knowledge on Changeling: The Dreaming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling:_The_Dreaming

http://www.white-wolf.com/Changeling%20Web%20Week/Changeling2preview.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/changeling-the-dreaming

God, I wish I could play some good old fashioned Werewolf again... I love that game.
Oh yeah, if you want the inside scoop on the enemies of the Garou, see if you can get a hold of Freak Legion... If you're over 18, that is. Gotta love Black Dog books.
Pentex is probably also a good thing to study closer, if your setting is urban. And you might want to look into the Ratkin as well, since they're very much urban. Also, my favourite changing breed of them all :smallbiggrin:

On Demons: The Demons from Demon: The Fallen are very, very old. In fact, they were all there when the Heavenly Host had it's falling out and Lucifer was cast from Heaven. Unfortunately, they've been imprisoned for almost as long a time and have lost most of their power. Escaping from their hellish prison some of them (players) head to earth and possess the bodies of recently dead humans, wrecking havoc or creating miracles to inspire the faith in humans with which they fuel their powers.
Personally, I've always found Demon to be a bit over the top, much like Mummy. The premise of playing a character from before time began really puts me off. It's hard to have any regular interests when you're a Seraphim created before God even created the world. As for mummies, at least their personality merges with their host bodies, giving some explanation for their usually very modern habits

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-28, 04:56 PM
Where did people acquire the idea that Exalted is some sort of World of Darkness prequel?

LongVin
2007-05-28, 04:56 PM
Van: Well, I probably am, but the game's taking place in Atlanta, GA, which is the HQ of the Cryptics. They'll probably meet the Demons eventually.

Driderman: I want to learn more about Changeling, but I lack the books and I can't seem to find them.

Changeling the Dreaming from rarebooks supplier Alibris: http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=1011204&wtit=Changeling%20the%20dreaming&matches=5&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title

Vaniel
2007-05-28, 04:56 PM
Go figure :P

Those are some scary like demons... :D

EDIT: Wow, quadruple simu-post

Indon
2007-05-28, 04:59 PM
Where did people acquire the idea that Exalted is some sort of World of Darkness prequel?

The Exalted solar book (1'st ed) brings it up, actually. It's not neccessarily the same continuity, but you could make it that way with some work, and a lot of similar themes show up in both systems (the 1'st ed Exalted books reference the Wraith book at least once, if I recall).

From what I hear, though, the second editions of both systems are more distant from each other, so... eh. I've played the second edition of neither Exalted nor World of Darkness, though.

....
2007-05-28, 06:36 PM
[QUOTE=ilovefire;2662082]About how many well-informed Hunters would it take to take out three werewolves?QUOTE]

A werewolf can take a human out with one blow in crinos form.

And don't forget that a normal human (dunno about the actual Hunters with a capital 'H') goes insane if they see a crinos and most all of them run away gibbering and urinating on themselves.

Easiest way for a single or small group of hunters to kill a werewolf is to figure out who they are when in human/wolf form, then walk up and stab them in the throat with a pocket-knife. The garou don't regenerate in their natural form.

Picasso007
2007-05-29, 02:54 AM
I admittedly know very little about Werewolf, and have only read the Changeling book, but I've played campaigns in both Vampire and Mage, so I can at least give some ideas from that side of the equation. Really, from what I've seen, the best advice I can give in regards to mixing is that less is better. The Mage game was straight Mage and had more than enough going on without needing to bring in other stuff, but the Vampire game had just enough of the other games to keep things interesting and World of Darkness-flavored - we ran into, and away from, a Werewolf, tangled with/manipulated a couple Hunters, fought some Kindred from the East, etc., but for the most part we were dealing with other vampires (and also Gehenna).

I would suggest doing likewise, for sanity's sake. Have them run into a Vampire (Gangrel cross paths with Garou most frequently, I do believe) once or twice, let them swap drinks/tales with the Changelings, maybe have them help out a Mage in trouble, but for the most part, they're Werewolves, so have them do Werewolf things.

Anyway, in regards to specific mixing-ins and tips for if/when you want to use them:

From what I've seen; prepared Mages win. Period. Give a group of Mages a day or three to set up and they can pull some giant ritualed spell out of their collective rears and write you out of existance. On the other hand, they are comparatively squishy if you can get to them before they are ready. Good luck with that. I'd suggest the use of hunting rifles, but some Mages are powerful enough that those wouldn't actually work.

Vampires and Werewolves I think tend to cross paths less frequently than you'd expect, given Vampires' urban tendencies (more people = more food) and the Garou's distinct dislike of cities. No sane Vampire, or group thereof, (I realize this is a small percentage; work with me) will tackle a Werewolf head-to-head, and anyway, few Vampires are capable of it at all. Vampires are much better off operating indirect means like ghouls, front organizations, and other pawns. A well-connected Vampire could make a pack's life a living hell through its network of puppets. And if the pack turns around and tears apart the Vampire in question, it won't be long before another one sets up shop and takes over the now-abandoned contacts and connections.

If you do wind up throwing a group of vampires at a werewolf, a single werewolf is more than a match for a group of young vampires, unless they're all combat-twinked and prepared in advance. Older vampires can hold their ground for a few rounds; elders are just plain sick ("Hi! I have nine points of charisma, and eight dots each in Presence and Dominate! SIT! STAY! Good doggie!").

To be honest, from what I've heard and seen, the old systems really aren't balanced against one another very well. I've heard that they specifically addressed this in the new versions, but *shrug* I haven't played/read any of them, so I wouldn't know. For what it's worth, I do have distinct memories of the Son of Ether in my Mage group firing 20-aggravated-damage shots from his souped-up rifle, in a relatively average-powered game (he was the one real powergamer we had, though), which I know would've annihilated any of the vampires in my Vampire game. *shrug*

Anyway, good luck with your game!

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-29, 04:00 AM
On another note: Garou are NOT lycans. Lycan is some horrid ripoff from the Underworld movies and the word itself very much suggests lycanthropy, which the Garou condition is not.

Well, the word Garou also implies Lycanthropy, just in French. Still using a foreign word to try and be special is common enough.

Renx
2007-05-29, 04:17 AM
The best thing a newly-Awakened Mage can do is go to a gun store, buy a gun and blow his brains out.

If you use Paradox rules the RAW way, you're better off. Seriously.

Werewolves are killing machines when it comes to their own setting, but when you mix&match Garou, the Kin and the Awakened, the circumstances will decide pretty much everything.

Vampires? Meh, I was never into the whole goth thing.

Technocrats? Might go for it, they're fun.

Hunters? Even more fun.

The funny part is that no one mentions the Kithain... while changelings might not be the powerhouses or killing machines the rest of the WoD cast are, they're fun to play. Of course, if you're going for a monster mash, they won't be your first pick :P However, if you're playing post-apocalypse(or whatever it is the WoD people call it), they might be very interesting to throw in the mix.

Driderman
2007-05-29, 06:56 AM
Well, the word Garou also implies Lycanthropy, just in French. Still using a foreign word to try and be special is common enough.

Yes well Garou is the name that White Wolf chose for their werewolves. Whatever the french word implies, the werewolves from Werewolf: The Apocalypse are not lycanthropes

Indon
2007-05-29, 08:41 AM
The best thing a newly-Awakened Mage can do is go to a gun store, buy a gun and blow his brains out.

If you use Paradox rules the RAW way, you're better off. Seriously.


You don't need to use flashy vulgar effects that generate lots of paradox. You can be more subtle about things, shift the causality (and thus the cosmic blame) away from you, etc.

Rather than, say, using your Life sphere to cause a person's head to just spontaneously explode, you could engage them in melee, and hit the right 'series of pressure points' to cause their head to build up pressure and explode, ala Fist of the North Star (Er, the live-action movie) the worst that happens? You garner a point of paradox, it expends, and you strain a finger muscle. Owch.

Being a technocrat is a similar venture, it's just that instead of using untested, super-powerful technology, you use more tried-and-true enlightened science, and you always remember to technobabble to the uninitiated (it provides a bonus!).

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-29, 08:54 AM
Yes well Garou is the name that White Wolf chose for their werewolves. Whatever the french word implies, the werewolves from Werewolf: The Apocalypse are not lycanthropes

Yes they are. Otherwise you're reading too much into the word Lycanthrope. Werewolf: The Apocalypse may have its own take on werewolves but lycanthropy is a broad enough term to describe them. The word Lycanthropy is just about shifting between wolf and human form, which I believe is the main gimick in Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

Greenfaun
2007-05-29, 09:38 AM
Ah, this brings back memories. I played Vampire, Werewolf and Changeling back in highschool and enjoyed them immensely, and even ran a somewhat problematic Werewolf/Mage game. Having characters from different systems permanently working together actually turned out to be really hard, since the balancing factors and subject matter are so different.

That brings me to my first point, actually: I agree with those who've said to limit the mixing. This doesn't mean don't do it at all, just keep it to a level of occasional guest-stars or villains. Go for a flavor of the week, instead of a permanent ingredient, otherwise the differences get distracting, in my experience. Also keep in mind the different ways the different supernatural types have of resolving conflict -- werewolves will generally try to go to wherever the problem is, get hairy, and kill stuff until the problem is solved or they die a hero's death. Vampires will wait fifty years, then strike hard and decisively. Or possibly just use layers and layers of proxies to cause their enemies to go insane dealing with the IRS, various state beauracracies, rich corporations, street gangs, UFO cults, and so on without ever knowing that they're fighting a vampire. Mages, of course, do whatever they want, but probably are too busy fighting over Ascension to worry about you very much.

As for hunters, well, there are hunters and there are Hunters. If you want them to be completely normal humans, remember that unless they have True Faith or perfect 10s in Willpower, they're gonna turn into gibbering maniacs at the sight of a transformed werewolf. If what you want is human-looking foes attacking with things like guns and ATV's, you might consider a Pentex strike team, a vampire's ghoul squad, or even some fomori and/or kinfolk who are deluded into thinking that they're the good guys.

My last tip may or may not be possible over IRC, but if you can do it your game will go a lot better if you get the old World of Darkness: Combat book. This book almost completely fixes the clunkiness of combat in the old white wolf system, and the idea of using cards to show your maneuvers was so great for the flow and clarity of combat that I keep meaning to work it into other games I play. As I said, over IRC this advantage goes away, and probably everyone's not going to have a copy of the book, but still, I recommend it highly if it's at all possible.

Driderman
2007-05-29, 06:00 PM
Yes they are. Otherwise you're reading too much into the word Lycanthrope. Werewolf: The Apocalypse may have its own take on werewolves but lycanthropy is a broad enough term to describe them. The word Lycanthropy is just about shifting between wolf and human form, which I believe is the main gimick in Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

Right, my bad. I mistook lycanthropy for being the 'transmitted via bite part'

Damn you, english-as-my-second language!

:smallamused:

....
2007-05-29, 06:07 PM
Yes they are. Otherwise you're reading too much into the word Lycanthrope. Werewolf: The Apocalypse may have its own take on werewolves but lycanthropy is a broad enough term to describe them. The word Lycanthropy is just about shifting between wolf and human form, which I believe is the main gimick in Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

They're Lycanthropes. But they are not Lycans.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-29, 06:35 PM
Right, my bad. I mistook lycanthropy for being the 'transmitted via bite part'

Damn you, english-as-my-second language!

:smallamused:

It's greek.

Which I doubt makes it any easier.


They're Lycanthropes. But they are not Lycans.

Only because nobody outside of those two annoying films (which I don't hate, I just find to have bland representations of monsters I'm fond of) would dare use that term. If it was a common abreviation they would be lycans, but luckily it isnt'