Earliest access to Antimagic Field?

[Uncle Pine]

What's the earliest level a character can have access to an Antimagic Field?

Another thread on this forum today remembered me that Love's Pain is a thing and that The Bad Guys™ have access to it from 5th level onwards. Now, spellblades don't help against it because you aren't the target of Love's Pain so you can't redirect the spell and AMF (the only specified way to evade the effect of Love's Pain) is normally a 6th or even 8th level spell.
So what stops a 5th level spellcaster villain from murderhoboing all his opponents with Love's Pain? I'm looking for feats, items, tameable creatures, loopholes, etc. that can help a 5th level or lower character to get his hands on an AMF.

Or is the only reasonable way to deal with Love's Pain playing as a character whose parents and all relatives, either natural or foster, are dead and who's costantly a d*ck to everyone so that no one will ever love you or regard you as his best friend?

[ben-zayb]

It can be done by a 1st level Cleric of Mystra with 19 Wis, Heightened Spells, spellcasting done at Mystra's temple, and making a Faustian Pact for an extra (8th level) spell slot; this mainly works because, unlike minimumability score requirements, there are actually no RAW definitions/specifications of minimum CL required for spellcasting

Relevant Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414318-The-Might-of-Mystra-Spontaneous-At-Will-Practically-Infinite-CL-Miracles-at-Level-6)

[sleepyphoenixx]

The damage is pretty pathetic, and chances are the caster will knock himself out with Int damage or just run out of spells before he even comes close to threatening your life.
Just get a wand of CLW - almost everyone can use one (or an eternal one), or at least knows someone who can. Chances are that the caster won't be able to get more than 3 casts off, probably less.

Alternatively buy your loved one a Bracelet of Friends with one charge. When the BBEG is stupid enough to come out of his trapped secret lair they can teleport you to them and you get an easy kill because he prepared useless weak spells in his highest slots.

You're also assuming that said 5th level badguy can find out who your loved ones are, where they live and defeat or avoid the local cityguard/militia (without using his 3rd level spells), which is rather doubtful. Buy them a Warbeast Riding Dog or two if they live alone in the forest and you're really worried.

[heavyfuel]

this mainly works because, unlike minimumability score requirements, there are actually no RAW definitions/specifications of minimum CL required for spellcasting


Nope.


For example, when Mialee becomes a 4th-level wizard, she decides to increase her Intelligence score to 16. That score gives her a 3rd-level bonus spell (which she’ll pick up upon attaining 5th level, when she becomes able to cast 3rd-level spells) ...


For instance, to cast web (a 2nd-level wizard spell) from a scroll, you would need a Use Magic Device check result of 23 or better, since the minimum caster level for web is 3rd level.




A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell. For example, a fireball deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d6), so a 10th-level wizard can cast a more powerful fireball than a 5th-level wizard can. You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).



These are just from the PHB. I'm sure there are more examples of CL being required to cast a spell.

[ben-zayb]

Nope.








These are just from the PHB. I'm sure there are more examples of CL being required to cast a spell.The only conclusion you've shown are minimum caster levels specifically for Web and Fireball for wizards (not even a CL mention in your 1st quote, actually). Turning this into a generalization for all 2nd or 3rd level spells will not end up being functional, especially considering majority of non-9ths and some 9ths like Ur-Priest.

Anyway, I'm not even gonna rehash the argument for citing Examples as RAW proof.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only conclusion you've shown are minimum caster levels specifically for Web and Fireball for wizards (not even a CL mention in your 1st quote, actually). Turning this into a generalization for all 2nd or 3rd level spells will not end up being functional, especially considering majority of non-9ths and some 9ths like Ur-Priest.

Anyway, I'm not even gonna rehash the argument for citing Examples as RAW proof.

Minimum CL is a thing. It's right there in the basic magic rules under Caster Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel).
The example that heavyfuel quoted is right from the same section of the PHB, so yes, it's a general rule.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question is the relevant section.

[thethird]

An artificer can get a scroll at seventh level

[Uncle Pine]

It can be done by a 1st level Cleric of Mystra with 19 Wis, Heightened Spells, spellcasting done at Mystra's temple, and making a Faustian Pact for an extra (8th level) spell slot; this mainly works because, unlike minimumability score requirements, there are actually no RAW definitions/specifications of minimum CL required for spellcasting

Relevant Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414318-The-Might-of-Mystra-Spontaneous-At-Will-Practically-Infinite-CL-Miracles-at-Level-6)
I've never really delved into Faustian Pact's abuse, but in addition to what others have said I'll mention that I find it weird that in 3.5e whenever you have a - quantity and add something to it it's still - but if you get "an additional spell slot" like an 8th level one on top of the "-" 8th level spell slots you have as a 1st level Cleric "-" plus one ends up as one. But I may be going on an irrelevant tangent.
The real problem is that doing what you suggest would anchor you to a single place (the Mystra's temple) with devils being regularly sent to collect your soul, which is not really better than simply living into a natural AMF until your level is high enough to cast Selective Persisted AMFs.


The damage is pretty pathetic, and chances are the caster will knock himself out with Int damage or just run out of spells before he even comes close to threatening your life.
Just get a wand of CLW - almost everyone can use one (or an eternal one), or at least knows someone who can. Chances are that the caster won't be able to get more than 3 casts off, probably less.
This is a sound advice, but I'm actually paranoic enough to assume that a wand of CLW wouldn't save me from the assault of a [Spellcaster] 5/Binder 1 (or a Binder 1/[Any class with UMD] 4 that can reliably hit DC 20 since I mentioned a 5th level villain) binded to Naberius with a wand of Love's Pain. Unresistable, unpredictable and unresistable damage scares me.


Alternatively buy your loved one a Bracelet of Friends with one charge. When the BBEG is stupid enough to come out of his trapped secret lair they can teleport you to them and you get an easy kill because he prepared useless weak spells in his highest slots.
This assumes the existance of a single loved one and that the character is aware of his/her existance. This means that having even a Single Stalker with a Crush will blow up this plan, as well as having more than a single loved one/close friend because buying more than a single Bracelet of Friends would prove too costly at low levels.


You're also assuming that said 5th level badguy can find out who your loved ones are, where they live and defeat or avoid the local cityguard/militia (without using his 3rd level spells), which is rather doubtful. Buy them a Warbeast Riding Dog or two if they live alone in the forest and you're really worried.
I'm not assuming that. On the other hand, I am assuming that your everyday shining hero might not even know all the people who loves him and that it's much easier to imagine a shady character visiting a village that's been recently saved by a party of heroes and kidnap the gullible daughter of the innkeeper that fell for one of them than a character who leaves garrisons of warbeast riding dogs wherever he does an action good enough that it might have earned him a close friend or a loved one.


An artificer can get a scroll at seventh level
Any character with at least 1.650 gp can get one earlier than that, but the wealth of that character isn't going to be enough to keep the AMF up for long periods of time with scrolls only.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem is that using AMF is only a delaying tactic. It also makes you completely useless for anything else unless you go for Selective Persistent AMF cheese.

If you're that worried you're better off getting the divinations to find the caster and some manner of teleport to scry & die him.
That's both easier (since they're lower level) and more effective than holing up under AMF and hoping he stops.

[Uncle Pine]

The problem is that using AMF is only a delaying tactic.

It really is. But it's the only foolproof tactic that I could come up with, since if you can get your hands on a personal AMF you're shielded even against enemies you're not even aware of that are trying to kill you using loved ones you're not even aware of.

Talking about personal AMF I had a look at the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook to see if you could build a mobile antimagic stronghold with a single room using the Landlord feat, but I apparently forgot that you can only take it at 9th level, not 6th as I thought. Moreover, the gp you get from Landlord aren't enough to afford a single antimagic room until some levels later.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Favor of Ilmater should grant immunity. It's a 4th level spell for paladins and clerics with the relevant initiate feat though.
On the upside the spell is crazy good so if you can get it your effort won't be wasted even if nobody tries using Love's Pain on you.

[Twurps]

Selective AMF stuff won't work. Either you're included in the field, in which case it might just as wel have been 'not selective'. Or you're not included in the field, in which case it doesn't affect you, and therefore doesn't protect you.

Also: Is this a regular thing in your games? because if not: Just about any amount of resources spent on countering a single thread seems too much to me. Given the near limitless number of spells and other ways of killing someone in the game.

Anyway, just to be marginally helpfull: I believe there's a magic item out there somewhere with a 1/day activated AMF. Might have been a shield. No idea as to the price though.

[Chronos]

Correction: Favor of the Martyr.

And there really ought to be other ways to ward against pain attacks, too, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[thethird]

What's the earliest level a character can have access to an Antimagic Field?


An artificer can get a scroll at seventh level


Any character with at least 1.650 gp can get one earlier than that, but the wealth of that character isn't going to be enough to keep the AMF up for long periods of time with scrolls only.

And if the DM hands it as loot or as backstory a character can have it even at 0th level. Your point being?

I mean the spell lasts for 10 min/level and you want it at a level as early as possible (when duration is shorter due to level being by definition lower) so yes anyone who gets AMF early isn't going to keep it up for long periods of time.

[nolongerchaos]

You could just find a source of Mind Blank for yourself or similar immunity to mind-affect spells. Love's Pain has the Mind-Affecting descriptor, so AMF is perhaps going a little overkill.

[ZamielVanWeber]

An artificer can get a scroll at seventh level

5th actually, although it will not affect the cost and has the problem where the scroll is neither arcane nor divine.

[Tvtyrant]

You can get it really early as a permanent item by doing the following. Be evil, be a thrall herd, buy the book of vile darkness, look at the sacrifice rules, kill your cleric thrall in an arena in front of your followers in an elaborate ceremony, use a scroll of guidance if the avatar, gain an XP free wish from an evil god. Get an antimagic torc.

You can pull off most of it earlier than level 8, but sticking the truly willing and cleric of a hated god basically requires thrallherd.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You can get it really early as a permanent item by doing the following. Be evil, be a thrall herd, buy the book of vile darkness, look at the sacrifice rules, kill your cleric thrall in an arena in front of your followers in an elaborate ceremony, use a scroll of guidance if the avatar, gain an XP free wish from an evil god. Get an antimagic torc.

You can pull off most of it earlier than level 8, but sticking the truly willing and cleric of a hated god basically requires thrallherd.

Truenamer can do it at level one. You just need to nab the planar ally one I think? Either way it takes 2 sacrifices back to back and the second one hits Wish and off you go. Jormengand has the trick memorized so asking him would be best.

[Uncle Pine]

Also: Is this a regular thing in your games? because if not: Just about any amount of resources spent on countering a single thread seems too much to me. Given the near limitless number of spells and other ways of killing someone in the game.
It hasn't been so far, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't be a regular thing in the future. Jokes aside, it's mostly a theoretical question that came up to me: since most of the time various specific spells come up as quick and efficient ways to dispose of enemies like Shivering Touch, Color Spray, Sleep at low levels, Ice Assassin, Love's Pain, etc. are there ways for an overly paranoid character to counter them before they're used to kill him? And since there was an assassination thread earlier today, I started with Love's Pain.


Anyway, just to be marginally helpfull: I believe there's a magic item out there somewhere with a 1/day activated AMF. Might have been a shield. No idea as to the price though.
Anyone has any idea about what kind of item is this one?


Favor of the Martyr
A Cleric with a Prestige Paladin dip can snatch it as early as 7th level, which is higher than 5th level but still really neat.


And if the DM hands it as loot or as backstory a character can have it even at 0th level. Your point being?

I mean the spell lasts for 10 min/level and you want it at a level as early as possible (when duration is shorter due to level being by definition lower) so yes anyone who gets AMF early isn't going to keep it up for long periods of time.
My point is the result is the same (casting AMF from a scroll, which has a duration based on its creator's CL, not yours), getting the scroll at 3rd level when every character can afford it is better than getting it as a 7th level Artificer as you suggested in the same way that getting a 24/24 AMF as a ~10th level character with the Landlord feat is better than getting it as a 15th level DMM Cleric.

[Tvtyrant]

Truenamer can do it at level one. You just need to nab the planar ally one I think? Either way it takes 2 sacrifices back to back and the second one hits Wish and off you go. Jormengand has the trick memorized so asking him would be best.

That is a neat trick! I wonder if a Warlock can do it with Otherwordly Whispers as well.

[Uncle Pine]

You could just find a source of Mind Blank for yourself or similar immunity to mind-affect spells. Love's Pain has the Mind-Affecting descriptor, so AMF is perhaps going a little overkill.
I didn't think about this because you aren't actually the target of Love's Pain, but since Mind Blank "protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects" it works either way. Now to find a cheap way to get Mind Blank, since Protection from Evil doesn't work in this case and the other options listed in the List of Necessary Magic Items cost way more than a low level character can afford.


Truenamer can do it at level one. You just need to nab the planar ally one I think? Either way it takes 2 sacrifices back to back and the second one hits Wish and off you go. Jormengand has the trick memorized so asking him would be best.
I can't check the sacrifice rules atm, but I'll look at them tomorrow after the session and pm Jormengand about the trick if I can't figure it out. It looks really promising (and since it only requires a low level Truenamer you can hire one instead of altering your own build)!

[ZamielVanWeber]

I can't check the sacrifice rules atm, but I'll look at them tomorrow after the session and pm Jormengand about the trick if I can't figure it out. It looks really promising (and since it only requires a low level Truenamer you can hire one instead of altering your own build)!

I am trying to remember: IIRC it is 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), +4 Int mod, +5 from an utterance, +1 from being an Illumian. You then torture a donkey in a long ritual to stack up some more bonuses and nab something to give you Guidance of the Avatar (limited wish?) then you repeat the process except with your nifty +20 and nab a wish. Then you take your free wish and go nuts. I feel like Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) is involved.

[Jack_Simth]

Correction: Favor of the Martyr.Sort of a correction. The spell was originally printed as Favor of Ilmater, updated in Spell Compendium to Favor of the Martyr. Given that the Book of Vile Darkness and thus Love's Pain is 3.0, suggesting the 3.0 version of the spell isn't a bad idea.

But yes, it's tagged [mind-affecting], and is specifically a pain effect. Book of Exalted Deeds has a fun counter as well: Empyreal Ecstasy, Bard-6 / Pleasure Domain 7.

You could also go Necropolitan (Libris Mortis - LA 0, but you lose two levels doing it) for the mind-affecting immunity from the undead type.

[Darrin]

Do you have a spare 100 GP? Buy a Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook). Turn it into half a pound of Flux Slime (http://dndsrd.net/epicObstacles.html#flux-slime) (Epic Level Handbook). Among other things, you get an AMF (until it evaporates... Lasts one round per point of Wis). Oh, and it explodes if exposed to sunlight, and may give you a permanent mutation. Fun stuff.

[Twurps]

Anyone has any idea about what kind of item is this one?


Found it!
Bulwark of antimagic. (Draconomicon p118) A +1 tower shield with 1/day command word AMF. 28k.
Also: Antimagic torc (underdark p73). Necklace with 1/day command word AMF. 25k.

[Uncle Pine]

I am trying to remember: IIRC it is 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), +4 Int mod, +5 from an utterance, +1 from being an Illumian. You then torture a donkey in a long ritual to stack up some more bonuses and nab something to give you Guidance of the Avatar (limited wish?) then you repeat the process except with your nifty +20 and nab a wish. Then you take your free wish and go nuts. I feel like Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) is involved.
4 (ranks) +4 (Int; +2 if you're hiring a NPC) +5 (Universal Aptitude) +1 (Naen sigil) +20 (Guidance of the Avatar potion, 300 gp) +1 (the sacrifice lasts 1+ hours) +2 (sacrifice is done on an altar) +2 (sacrifice is done in a profane area) +2 (sacrifice is done in front of 100+ people) +1 (the victim has been tortured for 24+ hours) +1 (mules have 4 HD) = +43 (+41 if you've instead hired a Truenamer NPC with elite array). Not enough to get a wish rolling a 1, but you can probably have a bunch of people Aid you to rack some additional bonuses and get your wish.



You could also go Necropolitan (Libris Mortis - LA 0, but you lose two levels doing it) for the mind-affecting immunity from the undead type.
This looks like one of the easiest and the less DM-dependant way to get permanent immunity to Love's Pain. And it doesn't even involve the sacrifice of innocents in front of hundreds of witnesses! Looks like we have a winner.


Do you have a spare 100 GP? Buy a Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook). Turn it into half a pound of Flux Slime (http://dndsrd.net/epicObstacles.html#flux-slime) (Epic Level Handbook). Among other things, you get an AMF (until it evaporates...). Lasts one round per point of Wis). Oh, and it explodes if exposed to sunlight, and may give you a permanent mutation. Fun stuff.
Ha. This is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind when I mentioned "tameable creatures" in the OP. Too bad chaos flask have such a short duration. :smallfrown:


Found it!
Bulwark of antimagic. (Draconomicon p118) A +1 tower shield with 1/day command word AMF. 28k.
Also: Antimagic torc (underdark p73). Necklace with 1/day command word AMF. 25k.
Thanks!

[ben-zayb]

Ha. This is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind when I mentioned "tameable creatures" in the OP. Too bad chaos flask have such a short duration. :smallfrown:
There's the idea of PAO-ing a green slime into a flux slime, for Permanent Duration (aka Not Instantaneous). AMF suppresses PAO, so AMF from Flux Slime get s suppressed, then PAO is reinforced, and...

[Uncle Pine]

There's the idea of PAO-ing a green slime into a flux slime, for Permanent Duration (aka Not Instantaneous). AMF suppresses PAO, so AMF from Flux Slime get s suppressed, then PAO is reinforced, and...

Schrodinger Slime?

[Karnith]

This looks like one of the easiest and the less DM-dependant way to get permanent immunity to Love's Pain. And it doesn't even involve the sacrifice of innocents in front of hundreds of witnesses! Looks like we have a winner.
The other option at low levels for immunity to mind-affecting effects is the feat Deformity (Madness). It requires Willing Deformity, so evil Humans/Vasharans/etc. can get it at level 1, as can anyone who swears service to an elder evil.