Monkey Grip: An overview please?

[Signmaker]

Not being able to remember the whole Monkey Grip vs Power Attack debate I used to hear constantly, I'd like to bring it up once more, as it has come up in a recent DnD group.

Basically, why is Monkey Grip considered a waste of a feat?

[Jasdoif]

You're taking a -2 to your attack rolls in order to pick up a couple of extra points of damage.

The best case use for a Medium creature to use Monkey Grip is to use a Large greatsword, taking -2 on attack rolls for an average 10.5 base damage. Using Power Attack with a Medium greatsword, you can choose to take -2 on your attack roll for an average of 11 base damage. All other things about the two are equal, except that a large greatsword has a higher purchase price.

The Power Attack option gives better damage, and allows you to not take a -2 penalty in case you need a better chance to hit. And allows you to put on larger amounts of damage if you have BAB to spare.


EDIT: For further reference, if you use greataxes instead of greatswords the Medium greataxe also comes out at 10.5 base damage. Still, a tie does not make a good case when Power Attack has more usable options.

[Signmaker]

Could I get the breakdown of how you arrived at that damage output? I'm afraid I'm a bit rusty.

[Jasdoif]

A Large greatsword does 3d6 damage. The average result on a d6 is 3.5 (the average between 1 and 6), so the average damage is 3 times that, or 10.5

A Medium greatsword does 2d6 damage. The average result for that is 7. Using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon gives you +2 to damage for each -1 you put on your attack roll, so -2 on your attack roll yields +4 to damage, for a total of 11.

[Zincorium]

In addition to the straight up damage output, there's a few other things:

1. Large weapons aren't that common, medium ones are. Thus, in many if not most campaigns you will struggle to get a decent weapon.

2. Things which improve the damage ratio of PA (pre-epic): Leap attack, Shock Trooper, Frenzied berserker Prc. Things which improve monkey grip (pre epic): zilch.

3. Few will accuse people who decide on power attack of compensating for something. Monkey grip has been known to cause that.

4. You can't turn monkey grip off. Or scale it up. So if you want more damage, you have to get power attack in addition to monkey grip, and if you want a better chance to hit you have to be carrying a backup weapon.

[the_tick_rules]

if i've learned anything on this forum someone has a problem with every feat, class, spell, or something, just do what you want.

[Signmaker]

A Large greatsword does 3d6 damage. The average result on a d6 is 3.5 (the average between 1 and 6), so the average damage is 3 times that, or 10.5

A Medium greatsword does 2d6 damage. The average result for that is 7. Using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon gives you +2 to damage for each -1 you put on your attack roll, so -2 on your attack roll yields +4 to damage, for a total of 11.

But what if you wanted to compare a monkey gripped one-handed to the normal counterpart? For example, if someone wanted to use a shield?

[Zincorium]

if i've learned anything on this forum someone has a problem with every feat, class, spell, or something, just do what you want.

And then don't complain, because I guarantee someone on the forum can say "I told you so."

Really though, as long as you feel the feat is actually a good idea, you're not just doing it to spite someone or to prove something, you actually know how the rules work (no goliaths with huge weapons, no TWF with large weapons in each hand), and you don't think any of the problems will come up in your campaign, then go right ahead.

If that seems like a lot of qualifications, it's because this is probably the most commonly misused or misconstrued feat next to vow of poverty.


Edit:


But what if you wanted to compare a monkey gripped one-handed to the normal counterpart? For example, if someone wanted to use a shield?

Monkey gripped large longsword + heavy shield < greatsword + combat expertise for two points.

The latter is a better use for the feat, and if you need even more AC, you can use a shield too. And towards the endgame, anyone who uses a shield should either have it animated or use a buckler, because a single one handed weapon will do so much less damage that you're screwing yourself over.

That and combat expertise actually leads to other things, instead of being a dead end like monkey grip.

[de-trick]

if i've learned anything on this forum someone has a problem with every feat, class, spell, or something, just do what you want.

thats so true

[Fourth Tempter]

if i've learned anything on this forum someone has a problem with every feat, class, spell, or something, just do what you want.

There is someone having a problem, and then there is everyone having a problem.

[Signmaker]

Okay, to tell the situation out straight.

Guy is comparing Monkey Grip Bastard Sword + Shield to Normal Bastard Sword+Shield with Power Attack. Which is 'better'?

Assume he is proficient.

[Jack Mann]

if i've learned anything on this forum someone has a problem with every feat, class, spell, or something, just do what you want.

We don't have a problem with monkey grip. Basic mathematics has a problem with monkey grip.


Okay, to tell the situation out straight.

Guy is comparing Monkey Grip Bastard Sword + Shield to Normal Bastard Sword+Shield with Power Attack. Which is 'better'?

Assume he is proficient.

Assuming that the guy with power attack always power attacks for two, he'll do 7.5 before strength. The guy with the large will do 9. However, the fellow with power attack can also hit more often by not power attacking, which will increase his average damage (since a missed hit does no damage at all), and he can increase the amount by which he power attacks when necessary.

Of course, give them five levels, and they're both behind the guy who never took EWP with the bastard sword, and just wields it two-handed, since he's enjoying a 2-for-1 bonus from power attack, and takes less damage than the shield-wielders, simply by killing his enemies faster and reducing their capacity to damage him. Eventually he can get an animated shield, and maybe pick up the EWP to get into exotic weapon master and uncanny blow.

[AtomicKitKat]

The problem isn't so much that Monkey Grip is weak(it's actually so-so), it's that Power Attack is too good. It scales with level(maximum based on your BAB), it scales with Feats and Class Features(Frenzied Berserker, Shock Trooper, etc.). Monkey Grip's penalty should probably go down to -1, and then the line in power would be less distinct.

[TheOOB]

Here is all you need to know about monkey grip. You use one of your extreamly valuable feat slots to generate an attack penalty that can never be shaken without changing weapons(which losses what little benefit the feat has and gets expensive as secondary weapons are hard to maintain well).

Keep in mind that weapon specilization (which adds +2 damage) is generally considered an extreamly poor feat, and monkey grip (which will only usually add 3.5 average damage), does barely more benefit, at the cost an attack penalty and making you rely on a type of weapon that is rare and you never find.

Power attack, on the other hand, is a great feat because a)it can be used with any weapon, and b)you can change how much attack you want to give up every turn. If accuracy is important you don't have to use power attack, and on the flip size if the foe has a low AC(or you have a heep of buffs, or god forbid, true strike), you can pour on the power attack for massive damage. Like in most situations a feat that gives you more options in combat is superior to a feat that gives you a static bonus.

[Fizban]

I also like to point out that using power attack two handed was originally meant to deal 1.5 per point of penalty. It got changed to 2 per point of penalty for some unknown reason, and is now too good. (I would link the source, but my bookmarks got annihilated a while back, but I remember it some sort of statement from one of the designers.)

[Bassetking]

The main reason I have an issue with Monkey Grip?

Magic Weapons re-size to their weilder.

[TheOOB]

The main reason I have an issue with Monkey Grip?

Magic Weapons re-size to their weilder.

I'm sorry, but I'm decently sure your wrong on that mark. Magical armor resizes, but not weapons.

EDIT:Upon reading the SRD, I recant my statement.

[Droodle]

You know, Monkey Grip is a pretty worthwhile feat for a Gnome or a Hafling fighter. You are a lot more likely to be looting medium sized weapons from the bodies of your foes than small. Some will be magical and your hafling fighter may want to use them without taking a massive penalty.

[Dhavaer]

The main reason I have an issue with Monkey Grip?

Magic Weapons re-size to their weilder.

Do they? I thought that Weapons were the one item type that didn't resize.

[Jack Mann]

I wouldn't say it's too good. I mean, it's still melee. Possibly you could argue that leap attack/shock trooper is too good, but power attack really isn't. It's simply that the other options terrible in comparison. Two-weapon fighting isn't worth it without extra damage coming from somewhere (though it can get nice if you do), and a shield can easily be animated.

Now, if shields could not be animated, or if using an animated shield provided fewer benefits, the choice of sword-and-board would be slightly better. However, it would still be a generally poor choice, since the fighter is better off doing more damage and killing it quickly, thus taking less damage in the long run.

I think the solution is A) to downgrade animated shields, either by increasing the cost or by denying the shield's full benefit, and B) giving shields more feats and maneuvers to give it damage closer to the benefits of THF. Not as great, but close enough that the person with sword-and-board can be effective, and have some advantages over the THF build.

[Dhavaer]

How about making Combat Expertise 2:1 when using sword and board?

[Fax Celestis]

Do they? I thought that Weapons were the one item type that didn't resize.

They do not. Nothing resizes but jewelry.


Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.
Armor and Weapon Sizes

Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100).

I believe that the only situation we discovered where Monkey Grip was worth it was in the case of a mounted charger Monkey Gripping a Large lance with Spirited Charge.

[Droodle]

They do not. Nothing resizes but jewelry.

I believe that the only situation we discovered where Monkey Grip was worth it was in the case of a mounted charger Monkey Gripping a Large lance with Spirited Charge.You really don't think a small sized fighter would benefit from Monkey Grip in light of more limited availability of small size weapons? Most of a Hafling or Gnome's enemies are going to be medium sized....and I don't really think a human or orc carrying around an enchanted hafling sized long sword would be all that likely.

[TheOOB]

You really don't think a small sized fighter would benefit from Monkey Grip in light of more limited availability of small size weapons? Most of a Hafling or Gnome's enemies are going to be medium sized....and I don't really think a human or orc carrying around an enchanted hafling sized long sword would be all that likely.

There is no price difference between small and medium weapons, and once you've found a single small masterwork weapon enchanting it isn't any different. I suppose if your a small character and your DM is really being stingy it might be worth it, but things have to be pretty bad to make monkey grip more attractive then almost any other feat.

[Jack Mann]

Eh, if you can increase size enough, it eventually becomes somewhat worthwhile, as the size-increase outstrips power attack. But I'm pretty sure you have to be at least huge before it really becomes worth it.

[TheOOB]

Yes, but for a hige creature that attack penealty is all the more crippling as they get a fat size penealty to attack rolls.

[Jack Mann]

They generally have a fairly sizable strength bonus to help make up for that.

[AtomicKitKat]

+Str from size usually outstrips -AB. The only thing Large creatures really suffer from is an inability to dodge hits, which their +Con helps to ameliorate.

[Jasdoif]

Do note there's no exclusivity between Power Attack and Monkey Grip; if you make heavy use of the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo to put your whole BAB into Power Attack, you can make use of the extra damage you'll get from Monkey Grip...but is it really worth a feat?



You really don't think a small sized fighter would benefit from Monkey Grip in light of more limited availability of small size weapons? Most of a Hafling or Gnome's enemies are going to be medium sized....and I don't really think a human or orc carrying around an enchanted hafling sized long sword would be all that likely.The damage potential isn't that good. With a greatsword, you end up a point behind if you go with Monkey Grip instead of Power Attack.

And Monkey Grip isn't strictly necessary, anyway. Monkey Grip will allow, say, a gnome to wield a Medium longsword one-handed. Any gnome can wield a Medium longsword two-handed, with the same -2 penalty. (A human can also wield a Medium longsword two-handed, but without the -2 penalty since the weapon is the appropriate size).


Eh, if you can increase size enough, it eventually becomes somewhat worthwhile, as the size-increase outstrips power attack. But I'm pretty sure you have to be at least huge before it really becomes worth it.Huge or Gargantuan, you pick up an extra 7 (average) points of damage using Monkey Grip with a greataxe or greatsword, versus the extra 4 from Power Attack.

[Droodle]

And Monkey Grip isn't strictly necessary, anyway. Monkey Grip will allow, say, a gnome to wield a Medium longsword one-handed. Any gnome can wield a Medium longsword two-handed, with the same -2 penalty. (A human can also wield a Medium longsword two-handed, but without the -2 penalty since the weapon is the appropriate size).I know it's just a house rule, but we always used a rule that said a character with monkey grip could use a longsword /one handed axe/etc which is one size category bigger two handed without any penalty at all. This isn't RAW, but it sure makes the feat more useful. Especially in a low magic campaign setting.