PDA

View Full Version : Help with Low/Difficult Magic Setting



Greyen
2007-05-28, 05:36 AM
I'm working on building a worls with low magic. I want the knowledge to be there but I want the magic itself to be more difficult to use. Something along the lines of the Weave from FR but it is just more difficult reach. There are many implications to this but the main one is spells being cast are more difficult to power.

For arcane casters I was think of using a caster level chack vs (2 x level of the spell)+10 for every spell cast. That means a 1st level spell will be a DC 12 and an 8th will be a DC 26 caster level checks respectively.

For divine casters I want to use something along the lines of a diplomacy check or something. Clerics are granted their powers and need to beseech their patrons much more ardently for their power to work. Any Ideas?

Extraordinary abilities I think will work as normal. Supernatural abilities will work with a longer cooldown time, less magic to power them available longer to recharge. And Spell like abilities will have the same as arcane checks. With the caster level being equal to the users HD.

This low magic will lower then amount and power of magical beasts, and any magic using mobs, including undead.

Comments, criticism (constructive), ideas are all welcome.

Matthew
2007-05-28, 05:46 AM
You might find this thread useful: D&D Rules in a Low Magic Setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28033)

Greyen
2007-05-28, 06:22 AM
See i'm trying to not remove magic's viability just slow it down I guess. Reduce its availability and reliability without crippling it. I want caster classes but I want them to work a little harder.

Making magic items will be done the usual way just by doubling the cost ($$ and xp) and requiring the acquisition of exotic materials to do so. They wil work normally but recharge times will be added. a wand will work every time you use it but you can only use it maybe every 1d4+1 rounds while it gathers the necessay magic again.

I want magic to be more valuable I guess. Yes, you can have that +2 Belt of Stamina, but to make it you need the heart of a troll and the skin of a red bull to make it. Or you can pay 2xbook cost, which is 16K gp. A little more difficult to gather.

If you cast a spell and don't make the appropriate check to see if you cast the spell then you don't lose it you just have to try again.

Matthew
2007-05-28, 06:34 AM
Well, that thread provides some ideas along those lines, but I can give you some direct feedback to your ideas, if that's what you would prefer. You're not the first to seek to do this by these methods. The usual objections are that you have simply created a 'save or suck' (and one which they will inevitably overcome and marginalise at High Levels via Skill Points, Attribute Bonuses and Feats) scenario for Spell Casters and by making Magic Items less available you reduce the effectiveness of Non Spell Casters much more than Spell Casters.

To be clear, it's a laudable idea to want to slow down magic, but you need a more comprohensive plan. The most significant problems with magic are the sheer power of spells at high levels, but there are also a number of other factors.

Of course, without knowing exactly how you want to change magic in your setting, I can't say for sure that your ideas won't fix what you perceive to be wrong! And that's the problem. Quantifying magic and its effects on a game world requires a detailed breakdown and lengthy analysis of the impacts on gameplay.

B!shop
2007-05-28, 06:37 AM
I was thinking to a similar setting some time ago, and i went to the idea of implementing the rule (I think it's present in some fiction-novel, but i can't remember which one) of damage when casting.

It's fairly simple: when a caster (arcane moslty, but it could be applied to divine casters too) casts a spell, he gets 1 non-lethal damage per spell level.
The same happens with the use of magical items, with the exception of potions and scroll.
This will limit the casting of spells, simulate the effort in meddling with magical power and gives importance to one-use potion and scroll that my players usually underestimate.

Matthew
2007-05-28, 06:39 AM
You might also be interested in this thread: A Skill Based Magic System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32687&goto=nextnewest). Dead But Dreaming put a lot of effort into that system and the responses were mainly positive, as I recall.

The Non Lethal Damage Scenario also sounds familiar, but doesn't that just result in Spell Caster's carrying more healing resources and concentrating on inflating Hit Points (Temporary or otherwise)?

Greyen
2007-05-28, 07:07 AM
@Matthew I see what you are saying. I dunno, at high levels magic is overpowering no matter what you do with it, except removingit completely, and then its not D&D anymore. Magic needs to be integral to everything.

The idea I had is the whatever powers magic is failing. Be it the presense of dragons or demons or the proximity of the moon to the planet...whatever. Just the main point is that the juice, mana in gamer speak, is no longer as available as it once was. I've always seen magic use as drawing on the source of your power, be divine or not, and then channelling it through your self and shaping it as you see fit (casting a spell). Now every caster has a conduit to their power, but in this world that conduit instead of being a DSL line is a 56K modem with bad connectivity. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. When it does it works just like any other time but you may need more time to prime the pump again for it to work.

B!shop
2007-05-28, 07:16 AM
The Non Lethal Damage Scenario also sounds familiar, but doesn't that just result in Spell Caster's carrying more healing resources and concentrating on inflating Hit Points (Temporary or otherwise)?

You can just implement it as one of more magic-limiting rules, i.e. the caster have to pass a concentration DC based on spell level AND loose hps that cannot be healed with magic, but only with rest.

Also Greyen's last post gives me some more options: the caster/magi item user has some spell failure similar to the one you have with armors, that changes if he is near (or far) something, or in determined time periods (moon phases, special zones, specific conditions).

The only problem i see is about the balance between casters and non-casters.

Matthew
2007-05-28, 07:32 AM
[Edit] Sorry, accidently hit Post before I was finished writing.

@Matthew I see what you are saying. I dunno, at high levels magic is overpowering no matter what you do with it, except removingit completely, and then its not D&D anymore. Magic needs to be integral to everything.
Not so. You can make High Level Magic less powerful and less frequent. It is a matter of removing and altering certain Spells, adjusting the number of Spell Slots available and the rate at which they recharge. Of course, it tends to mean more work, but it's still D&D.


The idea I had is the whatever powers magic is failing. Be it the presense of dragons or demons or the proximity of the moon to the planet...whatever. Just the main point is that the juice, mana in gamer speak, is no longer as available as it once was. I've always seen magic use as drawing on the source of your power, be divine or not, and then channelling it through your self and shaping it as you see fit (casting a spell). Now every caster has a conduit to their power, but in this world that conduit instead of being a DSL line is a 56K modem with bad connectivity. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. When it does it works just like any other time but you may need more time to prime the pump again for it to work.

A Caster Level Check (as you propose for Wizards) would work better for all Full Spell Casting Classes, I think, that is if you intend Spells to fail regularly. Of course, at Level One, we're talking a whopping 50% Spell failure Chance for Level One Spells and 40% for Level Zero Spells.

(Just using Spell Craft as an example, obviously the same applies to any Skill)

Here's a statistical breakdown of the skill mechanic:

Level 1 Wizard - Spell Craft [4 Skill Points, +3 Spell Craft Focus, +2 Attribute Bonus] = Spell Craft 4(9). He needs three or more on a D20 to successfully Cast a Level One Spell, assuming he can 'take 10' he automatically successfully Casts Spells when not under duress.

That three point gap remains the same right throughout his career via Skill Points and Level advancement, but it can be easily closed by gaining six points of Intelligence or two points and a Feat that grants +2 Spell Craft / +2 X. So, the question is, do these mechanics represent the fluff you have in mind?




You can just implement it as one of more magic-limiting rules, i.e. the caster have to pass a concentration DC based on spell level AND loose hps that cannot be healed with magic, but only with rest.

So there's no way to recover those Hit Points except through rest? Well, that certainly sounds potentially limiting. What about Fatigue? That always struck me as a good way to represent the exertions of Magic.


Also Greyen's last post gives me some more options: the caster/magi item user has some spell failure similar to the one you have with armors, that changes if he is near (or far) something, or in determined time periods (moon phases, special zones, specific conditions).

Those sound like interesting ideas, to be sure. Just a matter of detailing them.


The only problem i see is about the balance between casters and non-casters.

Always the problem.

B!shop
2007-05-28, 08:04 AM
Fatigue could be another possible option.

For example, if you get a total casting damage (hps lost for spellcasting) of more than half your total/actual hit points, you are fatigued.

For the balance, adding theselimitations to magical items too could help to give some limits to noncasters too.

Greyen
2007-05-28, 08:55 AM
The reason I thought a caster level check was similar to the skill breakdown above.

level 1 spell has a cast DC of 12...at first level you are rolling a d20+1, even taking 10 you won't be able to cast it until level 2. At higher levels this still voer balances say level 15 wiz casting a level 7 spell d20+15 vs a 24

Matthew
2007-05-28, 09:22 AM
Yes, indeed. The only thing about doing it this way is that it is fairly random. There's no less effective success, there's just success or failure. At early Levels it makes being a Spell Caster not much fun (especially for Level 1 Castings of Cure Light Wounds!).

I would recommend giving each Spell within a Spell Level a DC, rather than just blanket making them all 2 x Spell level. That way you can control Spell Casting much easier, making some Spells easy to cast, others more difficult. Again, though, this might be more work than you want to do.

B!shop
2007-05-28, 09:43 AM
What if the casting DC represent the strenght of the spell?
Using as example the casting of Cure Light Wounds, if the caster fails the DC the spell will heal less?

So you don't have the "success or failure" problem.

Matthew
2007-05-28, 10:43 AM
Sure, but the spectrum of failure makes the mechanics a little difficult:

Level 1: 12 (1D8+X)
Level 2: 14 (2D8+X)
Level 3: 16 (3D8+X)

etc...

So the difference between success and failure is much more marked at low levels than high. You, could, however, revise the Spell istelf so that the DC corresponded to the level of Healing, but that would require a more complicated fix. You have to address the problem from the ground up, if you see what I mean. Same sort of thing goes for Magic Missile and other Spells that scale by Caster Level.

Greyen
2007-05-28, 11:45 AM
That's where I need the most help...I think that channelling for healing/harm type of stuff for clerics should be different than normal casting. The links to the planes of Pos/neg energy are there just fine. Just the link to the diety is weak and the link to wherever magical power comes from is weak also.

Channelling for harm/heal will automatic I think outside combat, but for inside maybe a Con check.

Here's another possibility with that fatigue idea....Instead of a caster level check a Will save vs. the (level x2) +10 number instead? How easy is it to make a DC 28 will save at 17th level? For casting 9th level spells at the first possibility? If you fail the save by 6 or more than spell fails with no loss of slot/ready of spell. If fail 1-5 then spell half power?

Matthew
2007-05-28, 12:13 PM
Well, another option is to use the Skill Based Check in conjunction with Scaling DCs, but make 1 an automatic fail. Then, no matter how skilled, when under duress (unable to take 10) a Spell Caster always has a 5% Chance of failing to cast a Spell.

I'm still not all that clear on how frequently you want magic to fail... and knowing that is going to be fairly important.

Another option for DCs is making them ten plus three times the current level:

Level 1 Spells: DC 10+3 (13)
Level 2 Spells: DC 10+6 (16)
Level 3 Spells: DC 10 +9 (19)
Level 4 Spells: DC 10+12 (22)
Level 5 Spells: DC 10+15 (25)
Level 6 Spells: DC 10+18 (28)
Level 7 Spells: DC 10+21 (31)
Level 8 Spells: DC 10 +24 (34)
Level 9 Spells: DC 10+27 (37)

That would at least make it a bit harder to meet the DCs, especially in conjunction with the automatic failure on a 1.

Greyen
2007-05-28, 01:01 PM
Minimum fail rate should be 25-50% Not much more than 50% though. I do want divine spells to be a Charisma based skill check, probably diplomacy.

For both types the 10+(3x) skill scaling will probably be best. I think Concentration for both looks best.

For level 1 caste a level 1 spell with Con of 14 max ranks concentration would fail 30% of the time in combat. 2con+4ranks=+6 bonus vs. DC 13

That would work.

Matthew
2007-05-28, 03:05 PM
Well as things stand, I would just make it a Spell Craft Check that uses the relevant Spell Casting Attribute. Otherwise, there's going to be way too much MAD (unless that's the plan!).

At Level One, most Spell Casters are going to look like this:

4 (Skill points) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Attribute Modifier) = 9

That's going to mean a 15% failure rate for Level One Spells (i.e. 4 or more on a D20). However, Spell Casters with a +4 Attribute Modifier are looking at only a 5% failure rate (i.e. 2 or more on a D20). Once they reach Level Two it would be 0%, so I recommend keeping the automatic 5% failure.

At Level Three, these Casters have +11 and +13 Modifiers respectively, meaning a 20% (5 or more) and 10% (3 or more) Failure Chance with Second Level Spells respectively.

By Level Five, these Casters have +13 and +15 Modifiers respectively, meaning again a 20% and 10% failure rate with Third Level Spells.

It's a continuing trend and there are ways to push these failure chances even lower.

If you want higher failure chances, you will have to increase the multiple you use to find the DC, especially as at every even level, these Spell Casters improve their lot.

BardicDuelist
2007-05-29, 08:23 AM
I understand thay you are looking for mechanical help, but if I could...

Make sure that your players want to play in this kind of campaign world. A great deal of people (even those who don't normally play casters) get upset when you take away one of their options (I'm speeking from experience). If they are okay with it:

Make it a spellcraft check to cast spells, that way better casters cast better, and I like the DCs you've come up with. They are much better than the standard 15+1 per spell level. Low levels can cast their spells, and high levels still have a hard time. Kudos.