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Zakama
2007-05-28, 10:57 AM
This thread is what it says: dump all your cheese here. This should be the thread DM's cringe at.

Mine is making thermite from master creation and eschew materials.

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-28, 11:02 AM
My favorite examples of cheese:

Whirlwind Attack+ cleave+ bag of rats (doesn't work anymore)

The Cleave Train: Supreme Cleave + line of commoners

The Rail Gun: Line of commoners + rock (rock is moving rediculously fast by the end.) This one requires the death of catgirls to work.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 11:22 AM
Basically i wanted to ask about it, i've seen the pun pun thread on the wizards forum but i've seen around others like codzila etc..anyone care to explain?

brian c
2007-05-28, 11:43 AM
Basically i wanted to ask about it, i've seen the pun pun thread on the wizards forum but i've seen around others like codzila etc..anyone care to explain?

CoDzilla just means cleric or druid 'zilla (because it rhymes with Godzilla). Clerics and Druids, when played "right" (read: optimally) are pretty freaking awesome, without any cheese really required.

Also, cheese: Candle of Invocation.

Vaniel
2007-05-28, 11:47 AM
Aha, cheese.

One word... Incantatrix
Cleric - Divine Metamagic - Quicken - Nightsticks (and any other metamagic feat)
Druid - Natural Spell
Prestige classes that offer full spellcasting progression. Why not take them?
EPIC Spellcasting, wow. Cheese in it's pure form (Solar trick, especially)


I'll let other have fun :P

Tellah
2007-05-28, 11:56 AM
Check this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=587555) out. These are probably the most broken builds I've seen. LordOfProcrastination really knows his way around a loophole.

Green Bean
2007-05-28, 12:25 PM
The Diplomancer and the Omnificer.

One can turn any hostile enemy into a loyal follower in one standard action.

The other has a +infinty bonus to skill checks.

Attilargh
2007-05-28, 12:42 PM
[The Diplomancer] can turn any hostile enemy into a loyal follower in one standard action.
Diplomacy as written qualifies as cheese all by itself. One can make a "Diplomancer Lite" using merely the core rules and some determination: Result is a 3rd-level character who can turn any hostile enemy into a loyal follower in two minutes.

martyboy74
2007-05-28, 01:24 PM
DMM: Persistant + Time Stop

White Raven Tactics

Shivering Touch + Maximize Spell

Explosive Runes + More Explosive Runes + Even More Explosive Runes + Failed Dispel Magic

Alter Self/ Polymorph/PAO/ Shapechange

Natural Spell

DeadlyGrim
2007-05-28, 04:19 PM
The single most broken item I have ever seen is the Item Familiar from Unearthed Arcana. All you need to do is be a character of at least 3rd level with some sort of magic item and you get the following bonuses:
~Bonus XP: 10% increase in current and all additional XP gain
~For every 3 skill points put into the item, you get a +1 unnamed bonus to any skill. And it stacks. And you still use the skill points for skills as well. So a Rogue could put 3 skill points in Forgery and get a +1 bonus to Hide.
~The item becomes intelligent and gains special abilities
~Plus some more

So, you get a single item that makes you really extremely powerful. The problem is, is that if the item is destroyed or it is removed from your possession for a continuous period of more than one day per level, you suffer huge minuses. First, you lose 200 XP per level, plus the bonus XP. Second, you lose all the skill points you put into the item. And there is no way of getting back any of it! So, the DM can't even try to rebalance the game in-game by destroying your Item Familiar because if he does your character because useless. Truly, it's completely broken.


Broken cheese that I would actually use (and have used) is Iron Heart Surge from Tome of Battle. Basically, you spend a standard action and break free of any negative effects. Pretty good normally, but extremely good when you realize that it can be used to break Antimagic Fields (there has been a question about whether you can actually do this. Customer Service has been split about 50/50 about whether you can do this). Pretty fun.


Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Persistent + Time Stop doesn't work. Forget where I saw that off-hand, though. Here we go (from official FAQ):

Q: Assuming you are high enough level to cast a persistent time stop spell, could you use the virtual 24 hours the spell lasts to rest and recover your spells?

A: You can't make time stop persistent. (Its duration is effectively instantaneous for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat.)

Jack_of_Spades
2007-05-29, 02:51 AM
5th level paladin multiclassing into Beastmaster and then getting the devoted tracker feat. You get a 5th level paladin's mount with the added benefit of being a 9th level druid's animal companion.

"I summon a Dire Wolf form the Celestial realms! Charge!" The wolf charges and probably trips the target then use a lance to hit for double damage with a +6 bonus, 2 from the charge and 4 from them being prone.

Armads
2007-05-29, 03:13 AM
Handle Animal and Sleight of Hand

Handle Animal: At level 1, you can rear a roc!
Sleight of Hand: By taking a -20 penalty to your Sleight of Hand check to make it a free action, and being able to succeed on a DC 80 sleight of hand check, you can teleport infinite distances in 1 round.

JaronK
2007-05-29, 03:37 AM
Candle of Invocation infinite wish loop needs special mention.

Blood in the Water combined with Great Cleave and a bag of rats is another fun one, especially when combined with a nice high crit range weapon. When wielding a Jovar with Improved Critical, you're critting on a 15-20, so for every 4 rats in the bag, you get +1 to hit and to damage. Yehaw.

You can pull off the same trick with a troll... coup de gras the thing over and over for an endlessly stacking damage loop.

JaronK

Arceliar
2007-05-29, 04:02 AM
Two words: Eldritch Disciple.


(Edit: Few things short of Pun Pun are scarier than CoDzilla with a Vitrolic Glaive.)

Grug
2007-05-29, 07:13 AM
Also, cheese: Candle of Invocation.

there's actually a simple way to stop that. The city of brass noticed that all of their servants are going o the same place, and will dispatch a strike squad.

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-29, 08:45 AM
Cheesy? A rogue with maxed sleight of hand can rob anything (as in ANYthing that is small size or lower that is not held in hands; includes clothes) of an opponent with free actions (actually only needs a bonus of +20, since he can retry as often as he likes). It does not matter if the opponent notices it or not, the DC remains always at 40 (so, a reasonably maxed rogue can do it from around lvl 5). It's silly, but RAW (as the diplomancer).

- Giacomo

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-29, 09:22 AM
The Cleave Train: Supreme Cleave + line of commoner.

You do realise that this doesn't work in 3.5 and wasn't supposed to work in 3.0 right?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-05-29, 10:19 PM
Savage Species. All of it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-29, 10:24 PM
My favorite examples of cheese:

Whirlwind Attack+ cleave+ bag of rats (doesn't work anymore)

The Cleave Train: Supreme Cleave + line of commoners

The Rail Gun: Line of commoners + rock (rock is moving rediculously fast by the end.) This one requires the death of catgirls to work.

Can still happen per SRD, but it requires a bit more ingenuity.

Fifth level ability from War Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) is called Sweeping Strike.


Sweeping Strike (Ex)
At 5th level, a war mind gains the ability to make great, sweeping swings with a melee weapon. On each melee attack a war mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.

Bag of rats, Great Cleave, and Sweeping Strike. I have as many attacks on my target as I have rats. Here's how it goes... I kill a rat. I get to make a Sweeping Strike on my target. Wait, I killed the rat, Great Cleave on the next rat. Kill it. I get another Sweeping Strike on my target. Wait, I killed the rat, Great Cleave... etc...

Whomever said DMM Quicken was not using DMM to it's cheeziest... DMM Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might. I'm a better melee fighter than any of the full BAB core classes.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-30, 10:56 AM
OK how about Rod of Security Cheese...
First encounter, blow all your spells.
Use Rod of Security to take party to alternate safe dimension for a week, heal up learn new spells... research, meditate, whatever.
Return to adventure
Second encounter, blow all your spells
Use Rod of Security to take the party to alternate safe dimension... etc.

Its like a save game option for DND

Zakama
2007-05-30, 11:25 AM
OK I'm seeing alot of Diplomancers, how do you make one?

JaronK
2007-05-30, 11:31 AM
OK I'm seeing alot of Diplomancers, how do you make one?

Marshal 1/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Sublime Chord 10 is a solid start. That should put your bonus to diplomacy through the roof. Bind Naberius so you can make diplomacy checks as a standard action at no penalty, always taking 10 even when threatened. Warlock gives you an invocation with I believe +6 diplomacy, and Marshal lets you add your charisma mod a second time, plus gives skill focus diplomacy. Mindbender lets you communicate telepathically, so you don't need a common language, plus you can take Mindsight so you always see them coming. Now just use that diplomacy on anyone that gets within 100', they'll immediately be your friend with no save.

Anyway, I was working on a character for a game where the DM said he wanted to see some munchkin fu, which brought up this: Persistant Unfettered Heroism with Wandstrike. Cast spells off wand, one per round, all day long, for no cost (no charges used). Fire at will all day long.

JaronK

Green Bean
2007-05-30, 11:31 AM
OK I'm seeing alot of Diplomancers, how do you make one?

In the most extreme cases? Like this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=371519)

Attilargh
2007-05-30, 11:36 AM
The easy version is a level 3 Old Half-Elf Aristocrat with a Charisma of 20, max ranks in Diplomacy, +6 to Diplomacy from synergy bonuses and the feats Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Negotiator.

The result is a character whose Diplomacy modifier should reach 24. For comparison, the DC to turn a hostile foe into indifferent with a single one minute Diplomacy check is 25. Thus it takes a maximum of two minutes to convert anyone to your cause, with no chance of failure.

And when we pick up some splatbooks and the WBL chart, I'm sure doing that with two full-round actions isn't many levels further.

brian c
2007-05-30, 11:38 AM
OK I'm seeing alot of Diplomancers, how do you make one?

The idea behind a "Diplomancer" build is that there are set DCs for the diplomacy skill to change someone's attitude towards you, possibly all the way from hostile to friendly. The best diplomacy you can get is a Half-Elf, be Venerable for the age category increase to Cha, then put full ranks in diplomacy and take skill focus(diplomacy). I think at something like 4th level you can "diplomance" anyone to be friendly to you without even needing to roll (ie you'd succeed even by rolling a 1)

Edit: triple simu'ed, that's a new record

F.L.
2007-05-30, 04:29 PM
Book of Exalted Deeds, Emissary of Barachiel Prestige class. Level 3 Ability: As a standard action, force opponents to make a will save of DC = your diplomacy check (so somewhere in the 40s), once per day for a week, or have their alignment forced 1 step closer to lawful good. Combine with some form of teleport/dimension door, and make the BBEG good in 2 weeks. Also, since you're a bard to begin with to reach the Emissary, you can bluff/disguise/etc to reach the BBEG.

warmachine
2007-05-30, 05:25 PM
Unicorn Pendant, 1/day Cure Moderate Wounds + 1/day Neutralize Poison (CL10) + Paladins have 4 higher CHA for Lay on Hands. All for a mere 6,000 GP. I kid you not. Magic Item Compendium p144. A wand of Neutralize Poison alone costs 21,000 GP. A magic item granting 1/day of that spell at CL10 should cost 14,400 GP by RAW.

The Mormegil
2007-05-31, 08:11 AM
Human Necromoncer Bard 1 Fighter 1 Wu Jen 3 Ur's Priest 2 Mystical Theurge 3 Sublime Chord 2 Mystical Theurge +5 Archmage 3

Human Feral Barbarian 1 Fighter 4 Ranger 1 Berserker 1 Bear fighter 5 Fighting Shapeshifter 2 Berserker +5


One can cast 9th level spells from both wizard's and cleric's list, second has absurd Str, fast healing, makes a full attacK every round, has supreme cleave, has reach, doesn't die, makes a bajillion attack per round thanks to Metamorphic Weapons and fury... do I have to continue?

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-31, 10:00 AM
Apocalypse from the sky. Dweomerkeepers. Enough said.

JaronK
2007-05-31, 10:46 AM
Apocalypse from the sky. Dweomerkeepers. Enough said.

Apocalypse from the Sky. Shadowcraft Mages. Even better.

While we're at it, Armaggedon and Exaulted Fury.

JaronK

Guinea Anubis
2007-05-31, 11:26 AM
what no Hulking Hurlers yet?

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565

Godhand
2007-05-31, 11:37 AM
Init. of the Sevenfold Veil should be on here as well.

Alter Self, Any polymorph spell.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 12:03 PM
I waited until page two before mentioning the creation that any cheeze thread should contain...

Pun-Pun

Reinboom
2007-05-31, 12:32 PM
Planar Shepherd:
Dream as plane: Me and my party take 10 rounds, ok, you all get 1 round, great, now for our next 10 rounds. Oh yeah, and uh, we can all fly.

Cold as plane: I step between the enemies, use the bubble. Take sudden flash freeze, everyone make a save. Succeed? Ok, you still take constant cold damage. Oh, and I'm a 12 headed cryohydra with all abilities without having to take assume supernatural ability. Yep. Btw, my allies are still immune to the cold.

Fire as a plane: Ok, I'm an efreet. I grant my teammates 3 wishes. I'm normal again. I'm an efreet again, I grant my teammates 3 wishes...

Gray Wastes: Too many options, Abysmal and Infernal. I also have all their abilities.

Mechanus: I'm a powerful construct, fear me. I also have all their abilities.

etc.

This is blatant cheese and in order to make it cheesy?
Druid 5 -> Planar Shepherd 5, choose the plane that fits your alignment.
Voila, you are most likely cheesy, if not, wait 4 more levels and you will be.
The only 'special' selections you need to do to be cheesy as a Planar Shepherd? Don't choose a plane that gives you nothing, which, I don't think anyone would choose a plane that would give them nothing anyways, the class is, after all, the planar shepherd. What else do they need to do? Have the correct requirements to get in. Which are easy requirements.

This class is blatant, I do not understand how it could've so easily been wrote up. It gives ex and su abilities of outsiders and elementals specifically! Argh! In the same paragraph - and with an example. They had to of put -some- thought into this.



Belt of Battle:
+2 to init, 3 charges that come back every day. 2 of them = free standard action... Batman got a new belt.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-31, 01:52 PM
Apocalypse from the Sky and Eschew Materials.

Artifacts have no GP cost so you can ignore the material component with Eschew Materials.

Swordguy
2007-06-01, 12:46 AM
685 quadrillion hp damage. Check sig for details.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-01, 12:57 AM
In "LOW LEVEL" leveling up games and campaigns the PCs will probably never see levels 9 to 11 just as wizards are coming into their own:

Joining a Guild or Organization for crafting "standard" party magic items without the feats like the colleges in Magic of Faerun for an extra +10% to the cost which also become DM campaign drivers. Without a specific feat like Mercantile Background or an organization that provides a resale increase above the standard 50% the PCs can't profit from selling just generally enhance equipment for the group or bartering to drive an adventure for the DM.

200 GP a month is a luxurious living standard. Shoot a Wayfarer or occasional professional spellcaster doing a few occassional spells or teleports a week or a month even with taxes and contracted discount rates can make a really good living when not adventuring. There is not necessarily 100% demand because the PC spellcaster is available to cast spells and more barter agreements or getting a cush job somewhere.

Meta rods considering the "Crafting Requirements" Cl17, Two Feat requirements to make each one (Craft Rod and the appropiate meta feat) them along with time requirements at the 1,000 GP standard a day and DMG demographics. These high level NPCs should be few and far between with lots of demand on their time

It depends on how you craft magic items in your campaign particularly if using two or three crafters to bypass the feat requirements.

I generally limit campaign crafting to non party crafting to 30 - 60 campaign days a year.

An average house is 1,000 GP. A grand house is 5,000 GP. There generally just isn't a campaign demand for a full time PC magical crafter even if they have the Mercantile Background feat.

I believe it is reasonable that all crafters need to be there every day while crafting magical items if there is more than one which increases the costs significantly along with reducing the availablity since most people have other demands on their times.

So IMO meta rods should basically be minor artifacts or acquired adventuring not purchasing for sale unless the party is making them.

+0 Planetouched Asimar or Tiefling to any character race provides some nice bennies and some ability enhancements +2 to a primary spellcasting ability. In point buy that is basically worth +6 points to your primary ability and should end up from 18 -20 and possbily even a little higher. Personally I prefer a more rounded out PC with 10s or better and a few 14s in non primary abilities like Con and Dex.

Oriental Adventures Hengeyokai (+1 LA (Mechanically +0 for losing the Shapechanger spell immunites based on other +0 templates) Shapechanging Animal (-2 to Wis and +2 to a physical ability score, choosing Sparrow (Most DMs will let you choose Raven or even a Hawk or some slightly better nonnerfed animals) gets you natural flying ability with your gear which may or maynot be useful depending on the campaign) with ECS +0 LA Mage Bred template for the +2, +2 and +4 to physical attributes an extra feat like Endurance and a +4 natural ac bonus or a +2 natural ac bonus with another bennie like +10 to fast movement.

Spellfire wielder feat from Magic of Faerun for a PC with a good constitution (Some limited healing and a few pretty impressive (half divine) attacks for the level particularly for a non spellcaster. So good it only showed up in a FRCS source book as a First level feat that requires DM approval.

Precocious apprentice feat from Complete Arcane with a level 2 Fire spell and the Fiery Burst reserve feat (Your DM might allow the fire Spell Fire Wielder to fuel the reserve feat based on how many spell fire levels the PC has in reserve). It's a fun feat to play in combat games defeating monsters for experience instead of plinking away with the crossbow because of limited spellcasting options (Limited memorized spells to cast and limited magical resources to burn in a lot of campaigns) so it's one of those feats that will help your PCs get to level 5 and 6 in a lot of campaigns where it starts falling off in utility.

UA variant Domain Mages for the extra useful spells with plenty of domains to choose from. This is pretty nice with a Battle Spellcaster if not PRCing in the campaign for the extra feats.

UA Bloodlines which can be paid down early in the game even if not using standard LA buydown.

A good rule of thumb is almost any feat that requires DM approval like the Leadership feat deserves a look because basically the feat is so powerful in game mechanically under the existing rules it requires DM approval because it can really impact a campaign.

I like sorcerers and the UA spellcaster variant particularly with the Battle Caster variant and balancing out the loss in daily spellcasting and known spells mechanically with one of one of the UA Domain variants. Learning variant meta spells like a sculpted grease as a level 2 spell from a scroll without the feat and spending the feats on things like the following feats which increasing spellcasting versatility and options:

Magic in the Blood already mentioned augments the following feats Threefold:

Fey and Fiendish Presence and Legacy Feats particularly for non spellcasters or high charisma casters like sorcerers particularly the Magic in the Blood feat increasing single daily use spell like abilities Each to 3/day.

Godsight particularly for a Charisma based casting classs like a Bard, Favored Soul, Sorcerer or Wilder which has limited known spells or powers. It also works with the Paladin and choosing another detection like Chaos, Law or Good instead of Evil.

Acquiring a Fiendish Symbiote from the Fiend Folio for Bards, Favored Souls, Sorcerers and Wilders is really sweet. A Wilder PC benefits the most as he would know 9 more powers (Level 1 to Level 9) than a standard Wilder. No reason there can't be other Planar Symbiotes.

_________

If you liked Wilders before taking Hidden Talent and a Psionic Precocious Apprentice feat that mirrors the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane using a "Educated" variant Wilder. The level 1 Wilder knows 3 psionic powers granting the PC more versatility. A level 20 Wilder knows 6 more powers than a standard Wilder and they can all be from other psionic power lists. Acquire a planar symbiote and add another 9 known powers. Don't forget to take a level in the AI PRC.

__________

Vow of Poverty is interesting particularly in low magic campaigns.

My main gripe with the feat is so many of the abuses could be addressed by enforcing a 90%+ wealth tithe of equal group treasure shares and limiting retained wealth.

Only allowing something like retaining up to a maximum of 10% of DMG suggested wealth for your level and limiting Masterwork and Temporary or Permanent Magical Item gear to half your level along with average starting gold mutliplied by your level for for general spending and temporary magic items. Taking the Ancestral Relic feat could be used to channel the excess and granting the PC a useful desired minor magic item.

An interesting variant would be to take a DM controlled Vow of Poverty along the likes of the Maqar Crusader PRC in Shining South tweaked for the campaign with the PC reporting and oathbound to a lord or organization (Knightly, Arcane or Religious) which is actually the DM which becomes a campaign driver.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 01:07 AM
Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect.

Use Greater Shadow Evocation to duplicate a Contengency without needing the expensive toy.

Congratulations, you are now immune to sneak attacks and surprise. Because you can use the round that Celerity gives you to cast Sudden Max (or use Rod of Max) Time Stop for an extra four rounds to push all your win buttons.

Forcecage + Dimension Lock + Cloudkill = any single target of Huge size or smaller is dead with no save and no SR.

Twin Ray Empowered Enervation = 2d4 *1.5 negative levels with one spell. Toss off a Quickened Twin Ray Enervation for another 2d4. That's a LOT of negative levels. One of the few good ways to completely screw over an opponent caster.

technomancer
2007-06-01, 08:20 PM
Nobody has mentioned the ring of planeshift?

You can planeshift to a plane where time passes at a rate of 1 day = 1 round in prime. What you need are two casters who can planeshift, enough teleporters to teleport your whole party, and preferably the quicken spell feat for your casters. Cohorts work well with this tactic.

Here's what you do: When your party gets attacked, you all link up and planeshift out of there. You spend all the time you want prepping for the encounter, and synchronize your initiatives. Planeshifter 1 shifts the group back to the material plane, your teleporter gets you back to the encounter, you all unleash your quickened attack spells, others in your party do their attacks, and the second planeshifter takes you guys back to the fast plane.

You have a full 8 hours to rest and replenish your spells between rounds of the encounter, plus your enemies only get a chance to attack you on the first round of combat, if they get initiative on you, otherwise you're simply not there when it's their turn to go.

Zakama
2007-06-01, 08:28 PM
A DM could easily rule that as ineffective though. In that 8 hours, the monsters can prepare too. they could call backup, recharge their casters, or set up a trap right where the PC's will appear.

Damionte
2007-06-01, 08:28 PM
The bag of rats things doesn't actually work. Once released a bag of rats is officially a swarm. You can't cleave off of the kills of individual rats in a swarm. You can't even really target the individual rats.

kemmotar
2007-06-01, 09:23 PM
A DM could easily rule that as ineffective though. In that 8 hours, the monsters can prepare too. they could call backup, recharge their casters, or set up a trap right where the PC's will appear.

hence the planar time trait. Technomancer said 1hour=1 round, Thus 8 hourse to sleep, replenish hp and spells = 8 rounds in material plane speed. thus 48 seconds...the monsters would probably be trying to understand for a while what exactly happen so you can still get them...however, you can equally use 1 1 hour=1 second time trait so by the time you get back barely a round has passed...8 secs disappearance and they're back with full spells and hp :smalltongue:

That can also be used to craft stuff...go to a 1 year= 1 second time trait make all the stuff you need, epic spells, items, other research for 1 year and shift back to the material plane...that way you also avoid the 30-60 campaign days and you don't need to delay the resst of the party:smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 10:20 PM
The bag of rats things doesn't actually work. Once released a bag of rats is officially a swarm. You can't cleave off of the kills of individual rats in a swarm. You can't even really target the individual rats.

The original build using this cheezy tactic used a bag of puppies, because he was supposed to be the personification of everything that was evil, and so took great delight in also slaughting massive ammounts of cute little puppies, who are not, in fact, a swarm.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-01, 10:23 PM
@Kemmontar:

Or simply rule that no such plane exists to be reached or some other "I'm the DM shut up!" thing that should stand in the way of any truly major amounts of cheese.

Saph
2007-06-02, 05:58 AM
@Kemmontar:

Or simply rule that no such plane exists to be reached or some other "I'm the DM shut up!" thing that should stand in the way of any truly major amounts of cheese.

Nonononono. If you're a DM and can't twist something like that against the players, you're not even trying.

A better question is: "Given that the bad guys have access to everything the players have access to and more, how would they use it?" Well, normally, the reason the BBEG doesn't go out and personally hunt down and kill enemies himself is because of time constraints; he's got other things to do. But if he's got unlimited time on his hands . . .

"Your 5th-level party has successfully completed its mission. Congratulations! Destroying that orb must have really annoyed Szass Tam, because you just saw him blink in and out of existence above you. That meteor swarm must belong to him too."

- Saph

Tengu
2007-06-02, 06:41 AM
The original build using this cheezy tactic used a bag of puppies, because he was supposed to be the personification of everything that was evil, and so took great delight in also slaughting massive ammounts of cute little puppies, who are not, in fact, a swarm.

Unless you use this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10885

Malek
2007-06-02, 06:53 AM
Bah, Apocalypse from the Sky by itself is for wimps. Now Nuclear Apocalypse (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=734636) is another thing... xD