Ways to improve natural attack

[boriss283]

Hello. I want to play a Spiritualist. And i have phantom (of course i have phantom). After some time i decided to choose Hatred phantom (I chose between Hatred and Anger phantom, but i think Hatred phantom don't lose so hard in damage, but at the same time has better AC.). My Spiritualist is 1 level, so my phantom has 1 feat and.....i don't know which feat to choose. I want to choose some think to boost my slam attack or choose some useful feat, but but nothing comes to mind. Can you give me some advice, some useful feats for Spiritualist and my Phantom (At start phantom has 12 STR so i can't choose Power attack).

[Captain Morgan]

Natural weapons don't make for the most supported combat style out there. Usually racial features or class features like Rage Powers and Wild Shape need to enter in to make them effective.

I don't know a lot about Phantoms or Spiritualists, but if the intention is to make the class into a natural weapon focused killer, maybe invest in Weapon Focus, leading into Feral Combat Training? FCT will let you start to apply feats normally reserved for Unarmed builds onto natural weapons, such as Dragon Style.

[Florian]

Natural weapons don't make for the most supported combat style out there. Usually racial features or class features like Rage Powers and Wild Shape need to enter in to make them effective.

I don't know a lot about Phantoms or Spiritualists, but if the intention is to make the class into a natural weapon focused killer, maybe invest in Weapon Focus, leading into Feral Combat Training? FCT will let you start to apply feats normally reserved for Unarmed builds onto natural weapons, such as Dragon Style.

Uh, pretty much wrong. Phantoms run analog to a druids animal companion, having nearly the same hd, bab anf feat progression, as well as the usual limits on this regard. Only difference is that you have to chose a limited template based on an emotion, in ths case hatred.

@boris283:

Sorry, no really great choices at level 1. Toughness or Weapon Focus (Slam) are options.

[boriss283]

Uh, pretty much wrong. Phantoms run analog to a druids animal companion, having nearly the same hd, bab anf feat progression, as well as the usual limits on this regard. Only difference is that you have to chose a limited template based on an emotion, in ths case hatred.

@boris283:

Sorry, no really great choices at level 1. Toughness or Weapon Focus (Slam) are options.

And what about later levels ? Because i totally have no idea what can i take later. (oaky, i can take Power attack at 5 level, when i will increase my STR to 13)

[Florian]

And what about later levels ? Because i totally have no idea what can i take later. (oaky, i can take Power attack at 5 level, when i will increase my STR to 13)

I'd actually push back Power Attack a bit. The phantoms BAB and attributes are not all too great, so there's not too much gain early on. I'd rather pick Improved Natural Attack as your level 5 feat.

[boriss283]

I'd actually push back Power Attack a bit. The phantoms BAB and attributes are not all too great, so there's not too much gain early on. I'd rather pick Improved Natural Attack as your level 5 feat.

The problem at start is 12 STR and Prerequisite for Power attack is 13 STR.

[Florian]

The problem at start is 12 STR and Prerequisite for Power attack is 13 STR.

Check out two things:
You've got the automatic Dex/Cha upgrade, but you also have a free ability score increase of your choice on 5/10/15. That's help with upgrading Str to meet the prereqs for Power Attack.

[Captain Morgan]

Uh, pretty much wrong. Phantoms run analog to a druids animal companion, having nearly the same hd, bab anf feat progression, as well as the usual limits on this regard. Only difference is that you have to chose a limited template based on an emotion, in ths case hatred.

@boris283:

Sorry, no really great choices at level 1. Toughness or Weapon Focus (Slam) are options.

I'm not really sure how what you said contradicts what I said? The thing is still limited to it's pre-existing natural weapons, since I don't see how it can use feats to increase the number of natural weapons, which is usually how you maximize DPR on a natural weapon build. It also doesn't seem have any constraints beyond meeting prerequisites for feats. So Weapon Focus seems like as good a feat choice as any, and can potentially open up more doors down the road.

Actually, upon closer inspection, it looks like Hatred gets a free Weapon Finesse. Why not just go for Piranha Strike over Power Attack down the road?

[Florian]

I'm not really sure how what you said contradicts what I said? The thing is still limited to it's pre-existing natural weapons, since I don't see how it can use feats to increase the number of natural weapons, which is usually how you maximize DPR on a natural weapon build. It also doesn't seem have any constraints beyond meeting prerequisites for feats. So Weapon Focus seems like as good a feat choice as any, and can potentially open up more doors down the road.

Actually, upon closer inspection, it looks like Hatred gets a free Weapon Finesse. Why not just go for Piranha Strike over Power Attack down the road?

Please look up the different types of phantoms. the original request is insofar nonsensical, as the melee DPR phantom is Anger and Hatred is the flanking buddy and touch spell delivery system. For Hatred to work, you shouldn't pick anything that deduces the already meager to git rate anyways.

[Captain Morgan]

Please look up the different types of phantoms. the original request is insofar nonsensical, as the melee DPR phantom is Anger and Hatred is the flanking buddy and touch spell delivery system. For Hatred to work, you shouldn't pick anything that deduces the already meager to git rate anyways.

Well, OK, but... that contradicts what you said earlier in the thread about eventually picking up Power Attack. And I don't get why you didn't point any of that stuff about a Hatred DPR phantom being a waste of time earlier, if that's how you actually feel.

At this point it just feels like you are saying things rather than trying to assert something specific. This feels like the Monty Python Argument Clinic Sketch.

[boriss283]

For real, i don't think that Hatred DPR phantom loosing hard in DPR to Anger phantom. May be it is because i don't know what can take Anger phantom to boost his damage.

[Florian]

(My original post was too rambling. Shouldn't try writing more indepth stuff before I had my first mug of coffee)

@Captain Morgan:

Rereading our conversation, I think I now know where we got off on the wrong foot.
Let me try to clear this up: Besides all appearance, the Spiritualist is not a "pet class" and the phantom is not something that should be handled akin to an animal companion.

The phantom is more like a very customizable buff/debuff with different forms, one of which can be a corporal creature, but most aren't. The important part is, that this creature can inherit some of its features to the spiritualist.

My appraisal is therefore based not only what it can do in this one form, but what it can inherit in the other forms, some thing it will spent more time in than not. (But see later)

@boriss283:

Basically, the differences are these:
- Anger swaps Dex and Str, also modifying the base stats.
- Anger uses higher damage dice values by counting as one size larger.
- Anger profits more by Improved Natural Attack, gaining mire and larger valued dice by it.
- Hatred costs you a move action to set up hated target and a full round action to maintain it when the target exits the range of the tether. Yes, high phantom Str and Hated Target deal aproximatelly the same damage, but until lvl7, Hatred can eat up your economy of actions fast, especially preventing your from full attacking, full round actions or doing more than a standard action.
- Later on, Anger gains some nifty self buffs that actually can carry over to you, while Hatred gains Sneak Attack, that don't.

Ok, that being said, please don't chose stuff that doesn't get inherited in other forms. For example, you inherit both slams with all passive things attached to them to use in your personal combat form, but you don't get anything that the phantom must consciously chose to use. (Meaning Weapon Focus (Slam) is great, Improved Natural Weapon is, too, but Power Attack or Hated Target won't transfer over)

Do also note that your phantom is very fragile. It starts of with Con 13, meaning it will get +6hp when the HD progression allows it. That is nothing you want to deliberatelly place on the front lines.

[Florian]

Just to put theorie to practice, let me introduce you to Mr. Happy and Mrs. Unhappy. Mr. Happy is a lvl 12 Spiritualist (Fractured Mind) based on PB20.
Please do note that this is a simple and quick build more based on flavour to showcase the issue and doesn't incorporate WBL/magic items at all.
(Also, do remember that switching form would make your phantome drop and therefore lose any items and their boni)

Let's start with Mrs. Unhappy, an Anger Spirit:
Medium-size female Outsider (Phantom)
Speed 30 ft. (fly), AC 22
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 18.
Attacks: 2 Slams +14 (3d8+6/20x2 [b, magic]) or 2 Claws +14 (1d10+6 plus 1d6 Fire/20x2 [b/s, magic]
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), Improvd Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss), Improved Natural Weapon (Slam), Power Attack [b], Skill Focus (Knowledge: The Planes)
Special: Aura of Fury, Darkvision, Deliver Touch Spells, Ferocies Mien (12 rounds), Incorporeal Flight, Link, Magic Attacks, Share Spells, Strength Focus.


Now for Mr. Happy:
Medium-size male humanoid (Human)
Speed 30 ft. AC
Str 8, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Attacks: Kukri +13/+7 (1d4+5/15-20x2) and Kukri +13/+7 (1d4+2/15-20x2)
Feats: Emotional Focus, Improved Critical (Kukri), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Slashing Grace, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
Spells known: 0 - 6, 1 - 6 and Burst of Adrenaline, 2 - 5 and Rage, 3 - 4 and Howling Agony, 4 - 4 and Telekinetic Charge.
SLAs: Enlarge Person 2/day, Rage 2/day, Longstrider 1/day.


So, there we are now. Well, if the action is low intensity, Mrs. Happy is out and about (And it is even planned for her to pick up Mobility and Combat Patrol next), providing her Aura buffs. If the action becomes too intense, she'll settle back into Mr. Happy, providing armour and shield as well as her two very good Slams.

Now you could say that this is a very specific kind of built. And that is where you'd be wrong. It would work out the same way for a more caster- or support-centric built and retracting the Spirit into the Spiritualist would become even more important.

[Captain Morgan]

Fair enough then! I bow to your experience with the class.

[Florian]

Fair enough then! I bow to your experience with the class.

If you have the chance to, give the class a try and find out for yourself. Along with its two sister classes, Medium and Occultist, it's surpringly versatile and offers a lot of options, maybe even too many options for people used to more straithforward designed classes.

The Spiritualist has, hands down, one of the best spell lists for a six levels caster. You'll find find the whole cleric support spells as well as all the usual BFC and crowd pleasers. What it lacks is
in the direct damage department beyond basic cleric spells you can have your phantom deliver.

With the phantom, you have three basic (or rather five) options to chose from:

Fully passive: Gain 2x Skill Focus and scaling bonus vs. mind-affecting. More important, let the phantom "take the hit" instead of you. This can be upgraded by a feat to also work against death effects.

Corporeal passive: Wear your phantom as armour, shield and weapons.
Incorporeal passive: Wear your phantom to gain ghost touch, become invisible, become incorporeal and fly.

Corporeal active: What we were talking about so far. Your basic buff aura and helper form.
Incorporeal active: Something we haven't talked about so far, your basic scouting, ghost- and hauntkiller form.

Now this is the point it gets a bit weird, as every type of phantom is designed to enhance one of these modes more than the others, more so be bringing new spells known (or even more SLAs in case of the Fractured Mind archetype) to the table.
Some simply don't work as advertised. Best example would be "Jealousy", as it should work as some kind of tank in corporeal active form, having abilities that ought to encourage attacking it instead of other targets, but it simply can't deliber in this department. "Fear" and "Despair" focus more on the debuffing side of things, "Zeal" and "Anger" more on buffing, "Duty" and "Hatred" are reverse-tanks, trying to discourage hitting the Spiritualist by dishing out punishment for it (Something that is a bit stupid, as baring metagaming, the enemy must attack the Spiritualist first to learn this).

Now, I think its funny that the iconic spiritualist, being depicted as an old woman, is pretty much missleading on what this class is about and how geared towards physical combat it should be.