RAW: what makes a person a captain of a ship? Scourge of the Cheese

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm currently trying to make a fear build based on thayan slaver's wisdom damage. (Battle of wills + move action demoralize, swift action demoralize, attack action demoralize can get 4 wisdom damage out to 1 or more folks a turn.) Just need to find a way to get free action opposed intimidate checks...anyway...


And I stumbled across stormwrack's Scourge of the seas.

"You can make an Intimidate check to daunt the captain of another ship who can see you or your distinctive colors. ...If you succeed on the Intimidate check, the target is frightened for as long as it remains able to see you and for 1d6 10 minutes afterward. A frightened character...tries to flee from you as best it can. If escape is impossible (for example, due to ship damage or the loss of sails), that character will strike the ship's colors and surrender. Even if you fail the check, the target might become shaken unless you fail by 5 or more. This effect lasts as long as the daunting effect."

How can we use this feat on land? Urban druid has animated small object, which can be an animated small ship with wheels on it, into which steps a halfling in full captain regalia.

Boom, I'm a captain. Now how do I make my opponents captains of their own ships? involuntarily of course. Is there a combination of illusions or RAW abuse to be able to strike fear into folks who didn't see this coming? They thought they were just going to hacknslash fight but instead wound up panicked and surrendering because their shoes turned into tiny ships and their helmet into a pirate hat, and the opposing captain was sooooo scary.

Ways to get multiple enemies on personal landships with captain hats are also appreciated.

[Drynwyn]

Well, technically, if they are the owner of a ship, and nobody else crews it or is assigned to the position, they are by default the captain. Scourge of the Seas doesn't say that either ship captain needs to be on their ship at the time of the intimidate check, after all. So all you have to do is have a bunch of ships, the deeds to those ships handy, and write the names of the people you need to terrify in the appropriate locations on said deeds.

[Flickerdart]

The owner of a ship is not necessarily its captain. In fact, most captains don't own their ships, but command them on behalf of its owner (a navy or merchant marine). In order to be a captain, one must be a vessel's commanding officer - which means that the ship also needs a crew that recognizes the captain's authority and follows his lead.

[twas_Brillig]

That's an interesting trigger condition, "You can make an Intimidate check to daunt the captain of another ship who can see you or your distinctive colors." Does this specify you need to see the other captain? Otherwise you could hire people (legion of urchins? Billboard company?) to plaster pictures of your flag anywhere and everywhere. Even if they can't see you, the enemy captain is still frightened for minutes after seeing one of your flags.

Assuming you don't just buy a boat in a nice harbor somewhere and go around transferring captaincy (or a host of boats, so you can draft more than one captain at once), I'd carry around either Swan Boat Feather Tokens (style points) or a Folding Boat (reusable). There's nothing like adding injury to insult by throwing a boat at someone before giving them command of it.

[daremetoidareyo]

The owner of a ship is not necessarily its captain. In fact, most captains don't own their ships, but command them on behalf of its owner (a navy or merchant marine). In order to be a captain, one must be a vessel's commanding officer - which means that the ship also needs a crew that recognizes the captain's authority and follows his lead.

Flickerdart, you sweet sexy genius, You did it. One must optimize their forgery skill!!!

Step 1: prepare documents before hand

Step 2: See someone in combat? Get their name somehow, or only get into combat with named enemies...

Step 3: forge their name to documents that grant ownership of a ship.

Step 4: Intimidate!

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart, you sweet sexy genius, You did it. One must optimize their forgery skill!!!

Step 1: prepare documents before hand

Step 2: See someone in combat? Get their name somehow, or only get into combat with named enemies...

Step 3: forge their name to documents that grant ownership of a ship.

Step 4: Intimidate!

I think what you actually want is to grant acting appointments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_(rank)) to your enemies to command a ship that you own. That way, you have the authority to do it and don't even need forgery.

[daremetoidareyo]

Technically speaking then, you carry around a bunch of writs for a series of ships that you keep at home. Those ships happen to be about 2' long. And you got like 30 of them.

is writing a name onto one of these writs a move action or a standard action?

Can an unseen servant do that for me?

Can I use truename research to get the names of people who are being lame and not telling me their name? Is there a way to quicken this research check?

[twas_Brillig]

Could you grant the appointment "to whom it may concern" or "to the holder of this paper"? You could make paper airplanes, or tie them to arrows. Put glue on them and slap people on the back.

There has to be a spell that writes for you. You could use that. If you wanted to get silly you could have a Contingency in place to appoint anyone who attacked you the captain of their own ship.

[Honest Tiefling]

I feel as if this trick should be held back until the DM decides to do an airship campaign for shennigans.

[Broken Crown]

Interestingly, RAW specifies "the captain of another ship"; it does not say that the ability works on mere Sailing Masters, Commanders, Lieutenants in Command, or other commanding officers. Just being "the guy in command of a ship" may not be enough to make a person a target.

Obviously, the best way for an enemy captain to deal with this effect is to jump in a lifeboat for 1d6x10 minutes, and leave the ship in the capable hands of his First Lieutenant or Mate. Given the usual amount of time it takes for one sailing ship to overtake another, the effect will have worn off by the time you close the distance.

After all, RAW says that the captain tries to flee; it doesn't say that he has to take the ship with him.

[daremetoidareyo]

Could you grant the appointment "to whom it may concern" or "to the holder of this paper"? You could make paper airplanes, or tie them to arrows. Put glue on them and slap people on the back.

There has to be a spell that writes for you. You could use that. If you wanted to get silly you could have a Contingency in place to appoint anyone who attacked you the captain of their own ship.

Been running this by my fellow DMs and they wouldn't allow the "to whom it may concern" clause. I don't know if I would either. But paper airplanes...that's plane delicious.

But what they don't know is that bardic knowledge can replace knowledge checks for truenames thus obviating the weeks of research clause. Off to research how to optimize bardic knowledge...using bardic knowledge is what kind of action? Swift?

Call yourself something really silly: Captain fear. Make a series of bardic knowledge check for personal truenames of opponent. Write them onto the writ. Fold the writ into a paper airplane. Throw it at opponent as part of your intimidate check. Get 5 levels into dread pirate/red corsair. Maybe some thayan slaver if you want to go evil.

@honest
Totally backpocket that thing.

Putting it together: You want the vizier so that you have legitimate governmental authority to appoint captains.
bardic sage 6/jordain vizier 1/dread pirate 5 or more
scourge of the seas, obscure lore, spellwise, other lame vizier pre-req.

during the research sesh, I did find out that you can use Heroic Rally from heroes of battle to rally your opponent. Which might be something i fight into my thayan slaver wisdom damage you to death build....
"You can rally demoralized foes with your bardic music."

[Drynwyn]

Using bardic knowledge (or any knowledge) is a non-action IIRC, since it represents you recalling things you know, not actively doing a thing.

[daremetoidareyo]

Using bardic knowledge (or any knowledge) is a non-action IIRC, since it represents you recalling things you know, not actively doing a thing.

That's what I thought. Did they not edit the truenamer at all?

A low level build: 18 int, 18 cha
Human bardic sage 1 (inspire awe ACF)/human paragon 1
Obscure lore, skill focus(intimidate), scourge of the seas

craft(paper airplane) 1, intimidate 5, knowledge history 5, bluff 5, truespeak (pick it up with human paragon) 5, Perform 5 (official decrees)

It takes a successful Knowledge check in the relevant subskill to discover a personal truename (although 5 ranks of Truespeak grant a synergy bonus to any such checks, and the Truename Research feat grants additional benefits). The DC uses a familiar formula: 15 + (2 × creature’s CR), or 15 + (2 × HD) for creatures such as PCs that don’t have Challenge Ratings. If you have the bardic knowledge class feature, you can substitute bardic knowledge checks for the Knowledge check. Just one success is rarely enough to discover a truename. You need a number of successes equal to 1/2 the creature’s Hit Dice (minimum 1).

They must have an INT of 3.
you get +1 for having met the guy

You will be fighting CR 1-4 creatures
Bardic knowledge stands at +1(class level)+4 int +2 truespeak synergy +1 having met them, +2 history knowledge synergy +2 bardic sage, +4 obscure lore = +16
CR 1 =1 check @ 17 (can take a 1 and pass)
CR 2 =1 check @ 19
CR 3 = 1 check @ 21
CR 4 = 2 checks @ 23 (two rolls above of 7+)

So that means that you have the name for any given non-fear immune creature with an intelligence above 3 as a free action.

Battle starts:
You brought 50 sheet of papyrus unto which you have written a writ of captainship of the mighty woodpulp based airship. It has a blank line to write the name of the captain. And markings on the back side of a unique name for the soon to be made paper airplane, all of which begin with "H.M.S."

Free action bardic knowledge check to replace the research truename process in TOM.
Write their truename onto your writ. (what sort of action is this?).
Fold into airplane...
and throw.
Roll intimidate check at 4+3+5+2= +14. If you win, they are frightened for 10-60 minutes. If you lose by than less than 5 points of difference, they are shaken.
Play your inspire awe song to intimidate them further on round 2.

[Flickerdart]

Interestingly, RAW specifies "the captain of another ship"; it does not say that the ability works on mere Sailing Masters, Commanders, Lieutenants in Command, or other commanding officers. Just being "the guy in command of a ship" may not be enough to make a person a target.
The person in command of a ship is called a captain regardless of rank, is he not?

Either way, this is only relevant for real captains, not those we appoint without their knowledge.

[daremetoidareyo]

Either way, this is only relevant for real captains, not those we appoint without their knowledge.

Context is funny sometimes.

Imperious command with this is funny. If you frighten all of them, you can follow up with the scathing wit feat while they cower.

[mostholycerebus]

The question is whether the opponent becomes a Captain even if they refuse to accept the position. I would assume no.

[daremetoidareyo]

The question is whether the opponent becomes a Captain even if they refuse to accept the position. I would assume no.

I reckon that it depends on the nature of which authority an appointment of "captain" is made. If the administrative authority has the power to appoint rank compulsorily, you don't need to worry about volition. So, this PC would have to be in a place of some political power to make such appointments as a matter of public policy. I think that this credential, although thoroughly in the fluff category, would require that you work with your DM to have your PC be in a minor governmental role. Joining the government guild from cityscape may cover your tail in this regard.

Unfortunately, that means that you would have trouble also belonging to the Land of Honor organization from PHB2 (which grants up to a +6 racial bonus to intimidate)...
but...
maybe this statement, "If you’re wielding executive powers, you’re either one of the feudal lords or the power behind the lord’s throne." is enough to have an affiliation with the Land of Honor work as your authority to appoint the rank of captain, at least ceremoniously, which doesn't matter as far as RAW is concerned.

[Broken Crown]

The person in command of a ship is called a captain regardless of rank, is he not?

He may also be called "skipper," especially if he's in command of a smaller ship and/or is not actually a certified captain.

In any case, if it were an issue of what the person is called, rather than what rank he actually possessed, you could just address him as "Captain" and dispense with the paperwork.


Either way, this is only relevant for real captains, not those we appoint without their knowledge.

This is the root of the issue. By RAW, the ability may only work on real captains.

[daremetoidareyo]

This is the root of the issue. By RAW, the ability may only work on real captains.

But "real captains" are not defined by RAW, only RAI, where it is implied that the person in charge of a vessel is the captain.

We can all freely admit that this feat was designed to specifically apply to the captain/helmsman of a ship at sea (or air, depending). Or at least the target should be aboard some sort of vessel.

The dysfunction is that it doesn't require the character with the feat or his target to actually be aboard his vessel. It's implied, but not mechanically necessary for the operation of the feat.

So, it's fun to exploit that oversight. And to figure out how powerful we can make that glitch go with a few builds to capitalize on it.

I'm partial to the truename shenanigans because 1) it's the only way to get a name for a stranger and 2.) there is an air of legitimacy to use the truespeak fluff to change the identity of the recipient to include a more captainly status.

Talking it over with my friends, we would all allow this sort of abuse in a less serious campaign because at worst, it is not too much better than a zentarim fighter intimidate build, and it opens the doors for the DM to make prestige classes around truespeaking and identity feats.

One of my buddies suggested a lawful neutral truespeak prestige class the "True Bureaucrat" that allows the assignment of roles to people. All of these abilities are subject to the rule of ever increasing DCs.

1st level ability would allow you to make a truespeak check to allow someone to be treated as any subtype within their type for purposes of feats, class abilities, spells, favored enemies, etc. for 24 hours. Also advances truenamer stuff.

2nd level: The character can make profession checks untrained and can make a truespeak check as a swift action to recieve a bonus equal to his character level on profession check that he makes.

3rd level ability: ORDAIN ROLE: allows a truespeak check to allow a character to be treated as any base class except savage progressions for the purposes of spells, abilities, etc for 24 hours.

4th level ability: 1 per day per 4 hd, You may make a truespeak check against a target with an int of 3 or more. If you succeed, they may make a will save save against DC 14+each 1 for each 2 points by which you beat the truespeak DC. If they fail, they are affected by lesser geas spell.

5th level ability: Greater Ordained Role: make a truespeak check to grant a target of ordained role a base class ability of the role chosen that is listed on the classes advancement table capable of being granted in the first 4 levels. A character cannot gain spellcasting, infusions, or manifesting as a feature. All the benefits of which are entirely lost after 24 hours. Eg1. if you make a truespeak check to allow your party cleric to be treated as a wizard through the ordained role ability, You can make a second truespeak check to grant them scribe scroll or find familiar. Eg2. if you make a truespeak check to allow your party fighter to be treated as a barbarian through the ordained role ability, You can make a second truespeak check to grant them rage 2/day. (haha, you can make wizards illiterate!)

[Troacctid]

In narrative naval combat, the captain is the individual in command of a vessel, per Stormwrack p26.


Using bardic knowledge (or any knowledge) is a non-action IIRC, since it represents you recalling things you know, not actively doing a thing.
In normal circumstances yes, but using it to research a personal truename takes the usual amount of time for truename research.

[Chronos]

I think that in order to make this work, the captain must have some means of exerting control over the ship, which won't be the case if he just has a piece of paper talking about some rowboat in a harbor fifty miles away. It might work, though, if you threw a feather token or folding boat at him, and gave him the command word.

[daremetoidareyo]

I think that in order to make this work, the captain must have some means of exerting control over the ship, which won't be the case if he just has a piece of paper talking about some rowboat in a harbor fifty miles away. It might work, though, if you threw a feather token or folding boat at him, and gave him the command word.

What if the "ship" is the paper airplane?