"You're not playing Chaotic Neutral properly" ¬¬

[ArqArturo]

So I started a small game with a few friends I haven't seen in a while, and I'm playing a Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc Druid. My character is impulsive but isn't an *******, just socially-awkward and loud, but other than that I've played along with the group just fine, the train of logic is: They help me, I help them, everyone else can f&%@k right off otherwise, although he has a soft spot on helping people that obviously can't fend for themselves (cripples, the sick, children, the elderly).

One player has a gripe with me on this. He says I'm playing Chaotic Good instead of Neutral because 'you shouldn't help people, you're alignment is the for the ultimate selfish'. I've argued that I have done one or two ******* things but, in general, I've done as I pleased.

"Yet you're still Chaotic Good" is the common response.

Am I in the wrong here? ¬¬.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Good people do good because it is the right thing to do. A tit-for-tat system can be either evil or neutral, but it is not good. X Neutral is not intrinsically a selfish alignment; you just cling strongly to the value of law or chaos, or disdain it entirely.

CG would be you adventuring to help people regardless of what order tells you to do!
Saving orcs because they are living beings? CG. Saving orcs because they are useful to you? CN. Saving orcs because you want more minions? CE. (These are oversimplifications, but you get the idea).

[Hexblade]

No. CN means doing whatever you want, with no thoughts of others. If you feel bad for the helpless, then you help them, if that's what you want. If you were CG, you would help everybody helpless, and do as much as you can to help them. You, on the other hand, are just helping them if you see them. You don't actively search for helpless people to help.

Edit: ninja'd

[Triskavanski]

Nope, you're not wrong.

"Ultimate Selfish" isn't chatic neutral. It might be a facet of it.. but absolutles are never the full picture.

But if the guy wants to keep complaining, clearly I think he's trying to tell you to take his stuff and is upset that you're not stealing from him.

[Strigon]

I'd say you sound pretty CN to me.
A neutral character can still be nice - even an evil character can be nice. It depends more on how you act when being good will cost you something meaningful.

[ComaVision]

I've always thought alignment is less what you do and more why you do it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I've always thought alignment is less what you do and more why you do it.

I believe DND runs strictly on "what you do" but that ends making alignment an even bigger mess.

[AvatarVecna]

There is no one kind of Chaotic Neutral, any more than there's a single kind of Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral, or True Neutral, or literally any other alignment. A CN character has no particular preference towards Good or Evil; this might be because they don't do a lot of Good/Evil things, or it might be that they do both when it suits their Chaotic desires. There's also lots of reasons they could be Chaotic instead of Neutral or Lawful: maybe they generally agree with the law as an idea, but don't like it applying to them; maybe their a creative soul and free spirit that chafes at seemingly-arbitrary limits placed on them by outside forces; maybe they believe a particular codified set of beliefs is utterly wrong, or at least misguided (this could be traditions, organized religion, government, scientific/magical experimentation laws, etc.); maybe they're just a selfish person who only cares about being allowed to do whatever they want to do, and doesn't care for society's limits in any way at all; maybe they're a non-psychopathic kind of crazy.

Here's my advice about alignment: play your character, and then figure out what they're alignment is, rather than choosing an alignment and trying to pigeon-hole your character into it haphazardly. There's a right way and a wrong way to play Chaotic Neutral, and the only characters in media to get away with being Chaotic Stupid are Trickster archetype characters with unbelievable power behind them.

[ArqArturo]

Nope, you're not wrong.

"Ultimate Selfish" isn't chatic neutral. It might be a facet of it.. but absolutles are never the full picture.

But if the guy wants to keep complaining, clearly I think he's trying to tell you to take his stuff and is upset that you're not stealing from him.

It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.

[AvatarVecna]

I've always thought alignment is less what you do and more why you do it.

It varies depending on the character; someone who's Goodness is more about their beliefs than their actions is hovering between Good and Neutral, while someone who's Evilness is more about their beliefs than their actions might be solidly in the Evil camp. Again, it varies from character to character; rather than figuring out the general rule, figure out the specific way it applies to your character and work your way back from there.

[Red Fel]

It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.

Be creative. I mean, you just told me he's made of 99% trade goods and .5% magical trade goods, and also possibly a soul...

Seriously, nobody gets to tell you how to play your alignment. Your DM may tell you if you've changed alignment, but even the DM doesn't get to say "This is how you play this particular alignment." Not how it works.

[Templarkommando]

It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.

You could always pawn his body off like Bender did in that episode of Futurama.

[smcmike]

Just balance out all the good you are doing by occasionally peeing in the soup. That should make them stop complaining.

[Geddy2112]

He says I'm playing Chaotic Good instead of Neutral because 'you shouldn't help people, you're alignment is the for the ultimate selfish'
You can start by not helping him. Next time he is down and you have a cure spell ready, use it on yourself. Then take all of the loot. Toss out an entangle spell that gets him involved. Or turn into a bird and fly somewhere to just watch the battle. If that is still too good for this Alignment Cop, just kill some random innocent people for no reason, maybe eat them or something really brutal, just so he knows you are not being too goody goody.

Seriously though, your alignment is none of his business. He can debate the nuances of good vs neutral with you, but at the end of the day, he should shut up and let you continue. Unless it has some major bearing on his character(it should not) that you are "not neutral enough" then he should can it. If your character is causing a problem, then that should be addressed aside of alignment. It is between you and the DM what your alignment is, and if as a druid you are being too extremist(CG) or not. The DM is in charge of you getting spells per day and keeping your cool druid powers. The player can shut it.

[Red Fel]

Just balance out all the good you are doing by occasionally peeing in the soup. That should make them stop complaining.

Every night, after the rest of the party is asleep, your PC should strip naked and sleep in the embarrassingly-nude.

Warforged don't sleep. He will, in all likelihood, have watch. And, like when you see a trainwreck and can't look away, his gaze will periodically, involuntarily drift back to the moon. I don't mean the one in the sky.

Ask the DM to make him roll Will saves to keep from involuntarily staring in a combination of disgust and horror.

If he tries anything on your PC during sleep cycle, gleefully point out to the player that he's playing his (presumably Good) alignment wrong by retaliating against someone sleeping and completely defenseless.

Then, the next night, roll over in your sleep.

[Zrak]

It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.

Well, metal is no good to a druid and you can make all the Ironwood you want, so you should steal the sexiness.

[ArqArturo]

Be creative. I mean, you just told me he's made of 99% trade goods and .5% magical trade goods, and also possibly a soul...

Seriously, nobody gets to tell you how to play your alignment. Your DM may tell you if you've changed alignment, but even the DM doesn't get to say "This is how you play this particular alignment." Not how it works.

xD

My idea of creativity is to just dump him into a pit of really hungry rust monsters. Mithral tornado, indeeed :smallcool:.

Seriously, even the DM is tired of his comments. This is the guy that was kicked out of a group for -wait for it- being chaotic neutral. He kind of quit RPGs altogether, and recently came back. Outside of games he's not a bad guy, in games... He's not :/.

... I'll just chuck him into a pit of Rust Monsters, and giggle like a little girl as I drag his sorry butt out of there.

[Chronikoce]

This may be of interest to you: Chaotic Neutral Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448806-We-re-Rebels-Without-A-Clue-A-Chaotic-Neutral-Handbook)

[Triskavanski]

It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.

His dignity!

If he's complaining you're not selfish enough you could (But as a good player you shouldn't) do things to demean his character. Like forexample using his 99% metal as a bottle opener. Hold up a couple of screws and mention how you might have found his .5% sexiness.

Invoke Robot based puns! Robot Jokes! Do the Robot Dance! Sing Domonorigato Mr Robot!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Seriously, even the DM is tired of his comments. This is the guy that was kicked out of a group for -wait for it- being chaotic neutral. He kind of quit RPGs altogether, and recently came back. Outside of games he's not a bad guy, in games... He's not :/.

Congrats. The only thing you actually had to worry about was the DM listening to him and changing your alignment to something non-druidy. If the DM disagrees with him you are good to go.

[AvatarVecna]

This may be of interest to you: Chaotic Neutral Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448806-We-re-Rebels-Without-A-Clue-A-Chaotic-Neutral-Handbook)

It's not a shameless plug if I'm not the one to link it. :smallcool:

EDIT: It's also woefully incomplete ATM, although I've got some bare-bones stuff prepared for the incomplete archetypes. If you've any questions, I'm stalking this thread and will answer when I can.

[Tvtyrant]

Just do dennis the menace stuff on your down time. Slip ungodly amounts of garlic into the food so everyone has smelly breath, vandalize some stuff, give laxatives to children, etc. Just nad enough to stand out from the crowd, not enough to possibly hurt anyone.

[blayzenj]

Nope, you're not wrong.

"Ultimate Selfish" isn't chatic neutral. It might be a facet of it.. but absolutles are never the full picture.

But if the guy wants to keep complaining, clearly I think he's trying to tell you to take his stuff and is upset that you're not stealing from him.

I think that's spot on. He's telling you that you haven't done enough evil to balance out the good of helping all those crippled orphans. Murder him in his sleep and spend all his money on hookers and black jack.

[BowStreetRunner]

While it has been said many times in this thread that you are playing a perfectly acceptable CN character (and I agree), I think it is worth pointing out just what a CG character would be like. With CG you are talking more along the lines of Robin Hood or Zorro. They don just help people when it suits them. They are far more committed to the concept of good over evil. As the SRD points out (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others."

Nor do you need to commit evil acts to balance out doing good deeds from time to time - that is a common misconception. You just need to be committed to neither good nor evil to be neutral. Likewise, on the Law to Chaos scale, your character should be committed to some concept associated with Chaos - freedom or something along those lines.

[Blackhawk748]

Every night, after the rest of the party is asleep, your PC should strip naked and sleep in the embarrassingly-nude.

Warforged don't sleep. He will, in all likelihood, have watch. And, like when you see a trainwreck and can't look away, his gaze will periodically, involuntarily drift back to the moon. I don't mean the one in the sky.

Ask the DM to make him roll Will saves to keep from involuntarily staring in a combination of disgust and horror.

If he tries anything on your PC during sleep cycle, gleefully point out to the player that he's playing his (presumably Good) alignment wrong by retaliating against someone sleeping and completely defenseless.

Then, the next night, roll over in your sleep.

Genius!! Also steal his hat if he has one.

[Flickerdart]

The ultimate selfish is Neutral Evil. Chaotic Neutral is Deadpool - acting on a whim. Whims can be to help as well as to harm.

[Segev]

This is meant only as a mental exercise for you: If your character were CG, how do you believe he would act differently than he does as a CN character? Assume for sake of this exercise that you are not held to your alignment restrictions for class features.

The point, obviously, is to outline what it is that you do that makes you CN, rather than CG.

[Strigon]

Every night, after the rest of the party is asleep, your PC should strip naked and sleep in the embarrassingly-nude.

For bonus points, learn to start sleepwalking. (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7f/1a/d9/7f1ad924ba844de2c4fab41f34278d23.jpg)

[Seto]

The ultimate selfish is Neutral Evil. Chaotic Neutral is Deadpool - acting on a whim. Whims can be to help as well as to harm.

Incidentally, Deadpool is a proof of how totally awesome CN characters can be.



(Although it would definitely be weird to have him in a party).

[AvatarVecna]

Incidentally, Deadpool is a proof of how totally awesome CN characters can be.



(Although it would definitely be weird to have him in a party).

Deadpool's one thing, but what about Calvin from "Calvin & Hobbes"? Lucid Dreamer optimization gets really BS at the higher DCs...

[Seto]

Deadpool's one thing, but what about Calvin from "Calvin & Hobbes"? Lucid Dreamer optimization gets really BS at the higher DCs...

*fanboy grin and giggle* Probably my favorite comic strip ever. Words don't do it justice.

If it's Lucid Dreaming, Calvin's probably found a way to abuse it (or his DM is gullible) since he transforms into dinosaurs or Elementals more than two size categories bigger than him. My best guess is, he's actually a Druid X/ Master of Many Forms 10 with a Tiger Animal Companion, whose powerful enemies Plane Shifted him to a sad, sad demiplane with the [no magic] planar trait. He nostalgically indulges in remembrance of his past life when boredom and powerlessness become too great burdens to bear.

[LudicSavant]

'you shouldn't help people, you're alignment is the for the ultimate selfish'

I found this amusing, just because I immediately thought of what my version of Olidammara would say about that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445953-Olidammara-the-Laughing-Rogue) Needless to say, he'd disagree with the idea that selfishness means that you shouldn't help people. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

*fanboy grin and giggle* Probably my favorite comic strip ever. Words don't do it justice.

If it's Lucid Dreaming, Calvin's probably found a way to abuse it (or his DM is gullible) since he transforms into dinosaurs or Elementals more than two size categories bigger than him. My best guess is, he's actually a Druid X/ Master of Many Forms 10 with a Tiger Animal Companion, whose powerful enemies Plane Shifted him to a sad, sad demiplane with the [no magic] planar trait. He nostalgically indulges in remembrance of his past life when boredom and powerlessness become too great burdens to bear.

Huh, it's not as BS as I remembered it being...still, pulling others into a dream you're optimized for manipulating can make for some interesting nightmares. But without discussing mechanics, Calvin is one of the iconic Chaotic Neutral characters, and he's one of the only ones that isn't a total Mary Sue in-world (however powerful he may be, a lot of things end up going wrong for him). Also, I'd like to point out that, for being a high-level druid, Calvin sure seems to hate the wilderness when his parents bring him there; and not just "Calvin's complaining about nothing", but "Calvin's complaining about basically getting literally eaten alive by bugs". I think Calvin's a bored Bard with access to Polymorph, but I digress.

Speaking of CN characters, I'm about to play a 5e game where I'm playing as a Rogue with a homebrew race called "Animaniac".

[Seto]

Huh, it's not as BS as I remembered it being...still, pulling others into a dream you're optimized for manipulating can make for some interesting nightmares. But without discussing mechanics, Calvin is one of the iconic Chaotic Neutral characters, and he's one of the only ones that isn't a total Mary Sue in-world (however powerful he may be, a lot of things end up going wrong for him). Also, I'd like to point out that, for being a high-level druid, Calvin sure seems to hate the wilderness when his parents bring him there; and not just "Calvin's complaining about nothing", but "Calvin's complaining about basically getting literally eaten alive by bugs". I think Calvin's a bored Bard with access to Polymorph, but I digress.

Fair enough.


Speaking of CN characters, I'm about to play a 5e game where I'm playing as a Rogue with a homebrew race called "Animaniac".

:elan: Oooh, what's it do ?

[AvatarVecna]

:elan: Oooh, what's it do ?

Cha +2, +1 to stat of your choice. One bonus skill, speaks Common and racial language "Snark". Can use Uncanny Dodge 1/long rest (or if they've already got it, 1/long rest without using their reaction to do so). They have a limited Alter Self ability at-will, and as the race is essentially made of ink and fueled by imagination, they can use parts of their ink body to mimic Prestidigitation when they employ the Use An Object action.

That last one is something I'll be abusing: my Thief Rogue can Use An Object as a bonus action, so I'll be making objects appear and then use them (this could be dumping marbles all over the floor, or throwing a pie in somebody's face, or simulating a joy buzzer, or a whole bunch of other prank type stuff).

It's gonna be fun, especially since the lead-in for the game is "a bunch of less well-known races have sent representatives to establish diplomatic relations".

[Afgncaap5]

I've never understood the rigid "Chaotic Neutral means that you're selfish" outlook. I think the best "chaotic neutral" is a character who just acts however they feel. Calvin's a great example; he's led almost entirely by whim but he'll still do nice things for other people if and when he feels like it. There's a great strip where he cleans his room without being asked and his mom thanks him, but he pointedly tells her not to get used to that kind of thing, as happy as he was to do it that time.

Deadpool still fits Chaotic Neutral, but I feel like he's a few steps closer to the evil side of the spectrum than Calvin. Won't he kill a bad guy if he feels like it? Or am I thinking of someone else?

The gauge I use for myself when defining Chaotic Good vs. Chaotic Evil is deciding whether a character is more like Aladdin or Jack Sparrow. That might not necessarily be the best gauge, and there are a few literary characters I can think of who I think would defy that oversimplified method, but it's not a bad way to eyeball it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The gauge I use for myself when defining Chaotic Good vs. Chaotic Evil is deciding whether a character is more like Aladdin or Jack Sparrow. That might not necessarily be the best gauge, and there are a few literary characters I can think of who I think would defy that oversimplified method, but it's not a bad way to eyeball it.

Jack Sparrow always came across to me as a shining example for CN. He did wildly illegal things all the time, but had critical lines he would not cross. He was only labeled a pirate because he freed a crew of slaves that belonged to the East India Company.

[AvatarVecna]

I've never understood the rigid "Chaotic Neutral means that you're selfish" outlook. I think the best "chaotic neutral" is a character who just acts however they feel. Calvin's a great example; he's led almost entirely by whim but he'll still do nice things for other people if and when he feels like it. There's a great strip where he cleans his room without being asked and his mom thanks him, but he pointedly tells her not to get used to that kind of thing, as happy as he was to do it that time.

The CN guide I made starts out with a C&H strip where Calvin's caught a butterfly, but a comment from Hobbes makes him reconsider trapping the thing, and he sets it free. Nevertheless, Calvin is still more than a bit of twit even at the best of times; he called the cops on his parents (claiming he was being held hostage), locked his babysitter out of the house (on multiple occasions IIRC), and constantly complains about the ways his parents try to spend time with him. Nevertheless, the presence of Chaotic Good/Evil tendencies balances out with the overabundance of Chaotic Neutral ones, such as his long philosophical discussions (that he's either having with his best friend or himself, depending on how you interpret the comic), and Calvinball, a sport where the only rules are the ones you make up.


The gauge I use for myself when defining Chaotic Good vs. Chaotic Evil is deciding whether a character is more like Aladdin or Jack Sparrow. That might not necessarily be the best gauge, and there are a few literary characters I can think of who I think would defy that oversimplified method, but it's not a bad way to eyeball it.

Yeah, it's probably not the best scale, but it's certainly serviceable.

[tadkins]

True Chaotic Neutrals don't give a damn what people think. xD

[Boogastreehouse]

*


...This is the guy that was kicked out of a group for -wait for it- being chaotic neutral. He kind of quit RPGs altogether, and recently came back.

Whenever I run or play in a game with new players, and someone plans to play a Chaotic Neutral character, I feel a certain dread.

I always worry whether they're the type of player that simply sees this alignment as a license to be disruptive, just to sidetrack—or totally derail—the game and make everyone focus on their character.

"I try to steal from the nobleman, while we're in the middle of questioning him for plot-important information!"

That's not being a Chaotic Neutral character; that's being a jerk player. It looks possible to me that this guy might have been the sort of player who uses Chaotic Neutral as an opportunity to amuse himself by frustrating everyone else. Now that you're demonstrating a different way of playing the alignment, it brings his previous play-style into question. If he was playing the alignment as it was supposed to be played, then his previous group was not justified in kicking him out, and he is the wronged party. If, however, your character is proof that the alignment can be played differently that the way he played it, then he has to face the possibility that getting kicked out of the other game was his own fault and he was wrong. If he puts down the way you are playing, he can continue to feel that he was right.

*

[tadkins]

Whenever I run or play in a game with new players, and someone plans to play a Chaotic Neutral character, I feel a certain dread.


These kind of statements make me sad, since CN is my favorite alignment and it gets such a bad rap.

[AvatarVecna]

These kind of statements make me sad, since CN is my favorite alignment and it gets such a bad rap.

Seconded; that's why I made (okay, why I'm making) a Chaotic Neutral Handbook Set of Guidelines.

[Kish]

This is the guy that was kicked out of a group for -wait for it- being chaotic neutral.
Which explains his motivation for pushing you now: Chaotic Neutral can't be his "I play this so I can be a sociopathic jackass while not being evil" alignment if it doesn't mean being a sociopathic jackass.

[tadkins]

Seconded; that's why I made (okay, why I'm making) a Chaotic Neutral Handbook Set of Guidelines.

Yup, I loved your work. :) I also think that handbook was the most necessary of them all for that reason.

[Jack_Simth]

So I started a small game with a few friends I haven't seen in a while, and I'm playing a Chaotic Neutral Half-Orc Druid. My character is impulsive but isn't an *******, just socially-awkward and loud, but other than that I've played along with the group just fine, the train of logic is: They help me, I help them, everyone else can f&%@k right off otherwise, although he has a soft spot on helping people that obviously can't fend for themselves (cripples, the sick, children, the elderly).

One player has a gripe with me on this. He says I'm playing Chaotic Good instead of Neutral because 'you shouldn't help people, you're alignment is the for the ultimate selfish'. I've argued that I have done one or two ******* things but, in general, I've done as I pleased.

"Yet you're still Chaotic Good" is the common response.

Am I in the wrong here? ¬¬.He is in the wrong, as many others have stated. Let's show him by the book, though, eh?

Start with the description of the Good/Evil axis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#goodVsEvil)
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good-evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.

Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.

From your description of your character:
You're helping your party ("personal relationships", just fine with N) and have a soft spot for people that obviously can't defend themselves. However... do your actions really fit "make personal sacrifices to help others"? Unless you've been dropping major chunks of change on the helpless, consistently voting for quests that specifically help people when the party is faced with "Well paying Job A that helps some faceless nobleman vs. Poorly Paying job B that helps the faceless masses of poor people", going out of your way to find people to help, or similar... there's no real "personal sacrifice" there, and no necessity for the 'good' alignment.

Chaotic doesn't appear to be in question, so there's no need to go over that.

Not that you really need to do so; for practical purposes, it's only the DM's word that matters, and that seems to already be settled.



It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.
Did he take Vow of Poverty? If not, he'll have a sword, or a holy symbol, or a spell component pouch, or a spellbook, or a stat enhancing item, or ... lots and lots of things end up on a character after a level or two. Even if he did take Vow of Poverty, there's pretty good odds he's got a spell component pouch or something.

[Spore]

Chaotic Neutral is NOT Pants-on-Head retarded.
Chaotic Neutral is NOT a lol-random killing spree.
Chaotic Neutral is someone who helps SOME people and kicks OTHER people in the nuts. Why? Because he wanted to. Because his liberties were infringed. But mainly spoken, there IS a reason why a Chaotic Neutral character does what he does.

Negate any upcoming argument with the following: 'This is my character and I will play him like I want to. You are entitled to an opinion about it but unless you are the DM I don't particularly care about it either way. Could we please carry on now?' If your fellow players don't relent, ignore them or leave. For a smoke, for a coffee outside. Go get pizza for everyone, or something. Just let it get into their heads that you alone have the say in your character.

[ekarney]

If they're demanding that you be ultimate selfish then they're looking at Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Neutral.

I don't know why standard Paladins are always looking to smite evil, smite Chaotic Stupid would be a far more useful ability.

[ArqArturo]

If they're demanding that you be ultimate selfish then they're looking at Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Neutral.

I don't know why standard Paladins are always looking to smite evil, smite Chaotic Stupid would be a far more useful ability.

Pretty much.

The bad news is this: We're canceling the the Game, partly due to him being a bit disruptive and no one is having fun (btw his warforged warblade is Chaotic Stupid).

The good news is we're gonna start a new game, though we're gonna play 5e (which he hates because 'it was made to cater idiots' and left)... But I have a few ideas.

[Keltest]

If they're demanding that you be ultimate selfish then they're looking at Chaotic Stupid, not Chaotic Neutral.

I don't know why standard Paladins are always looking to smite evil, smite Chaotic Stupid would be a far more useful ability.

Chaotic Stupids do plenty on their own to injure themselves without outside help.

[Psyren]

If your impulse is to help people, just be NG. That should also shut up the RP policeman at your table.

[atomicwaffle]

Whenever I do alignment, I add what I call 'tendencies'

Like 'Chaotic Neutral with Good Tendencies' or 'True Neutral with Lawful Tendencies'

It's not who you are, just what you happen to do from time to time, usually out of habit.

[daryen]

It's a Warforged Warblade. He's 99% metal .5% Ironwood, ".5% sexiness" (his words O.O). What is there to steal from him?.

I realize this is too late, but if you are of sufficient level, Transmute Metal To Wood is a thing ...

[BowStreetRunner]

I realize this is too late, but if you are of sufficient level, Transmute Metal To Wood is a thing ...

A Warforged character does not count as a metal OBJECT. He is a metal CREATURE and not able to be targeted by Transmute Metal to Wood.

[ryu]

A Warforged character does not count as a metal OBJECT. He is a metal CREATURE and not able to be targeted by Transmute Metal to Wood.

So cut the chunk you want off first. Easy peasy.

[tadkins]

Pretty much.

The bad news is this: We're canceling the the Game, partly due to him being a bit disruptive and no one is having fun (btw his warforged warblade is Chaotic Stupid).

The good news is we're gonna start a new game, though we're gonna play 5e (which he hates because 'it was made to cater idiots' and left)... But I have a few ideas.

That's a pity. Shame when a player can't respect their fellows.

On that note though, I thought 4e was the "simplified" one. From what I read about 5e it seems pretty engaging.

[SangoProduction]

That's a pity. Shame when a player can't respect their fellows.

On that note though, I thought 4e was the "simplified" one. From what I read about 5e it seems pretty engaging.

Compared to 3e, due to the sheer mass of feats and classes and what not, everything is "simplified", but 5e, however, is considered the babby's first role playing game. It's about as rules-lite as you can get while having classes, and magic.

[ArqArturo]

Compared to 3e, due to the sheer mass of feats and classes and what not, everything is "simplified", but 5e, however, is considered the babby's first role playing game. It's about as rules-lite as you can get while having classes, and magic.

In many ways it's like 2nd, except without the redundant rules 2e had (and no THAC0). But our DM is flexible enough that lets us play around with costumized stuff (for example I just made a cleric that looks more like PF's Inquisitor with the Gunpowder Inquisition, only more useful).

That being said, I'm more used to to 3/3.5/PF because that's the system I was raised into. Also I played too much classic Deadlands, so I'm used to have plenty of options.

[Dusk Raven]

So much has been said that I wanted to say. Like "ultimate selfish" being Neutral Evil, explicitly so.

I never thought of Calvin as being Chaotic Neutral, though it makes perfect sense. Gods, I love that comic...

Anyway, all this kind of reminds me of a D&D-based webcomic, where one player was playing a Chaotic Evil (4e, mind) Barbarian... and during a roleplay event, chose to side with the party over personal gain. The DM called foul on this, citing previous behaviors and her alignment, at which point the player basically said, "I only chose Chaotic Evil because it's the only alignment I can play where no one will b**** at me for acting out of alignment. I do what I want, and if that means sticking with the party, that's what I'm doing."

So, is there an alignment in 3.5 where I don't have to worry about people complaining that I'm acting out of alignment, as though alignment is some kind of caste or social code that people must follow at all times? Chaotic Neutral gives that vibe, but I think being Chaotic implies that you're actively opposed to regulation and order, at least on yourself, and I'm thinking more pragmatic with a touch of whimsy.

[AvatarVecna]

I never thought of Calvin as being Chaotic Neutral, though it makes perfect sense. Gods, I love that comic...

I know right? He's like a textbook example of how to play a CN character without being a total ass about it.


Anyway, all this kind of reminds me of a D&D-based webcomic, where one player was playing a Chaotic Evil (4e, mind) Barbarian... and during a roleplay event, chose to side with the party over personal gain. The DM called foul on this, citing previous behaviors and her alignment, at which point the player basically said, "I only chose Chaotic Evil because it's the only alignment I can play where no one will b**** at me for acting out of alignment. I do what I want, and if that means sticking with the party, that's what I'm doing."

Heh. I've read that comic, and it was definitely played correctly. Incidentally, I'm playing that same character (well, emulating that same character) in a 5e game now, although as a Monk instead of a Barbarian, since monks are no longer tied to the Lawful alignment.


So, is there an alignment in 3.5 where I don't have to worry about people complaining that I'm acting out of alignment, as though alignment is some kind of caste or social code that people must follow at all times? Chaotic Neutral gives that vibe, but I think being Chaotic implies that you're actively opposed to regulation and order, at least on yourself, and I'm thinking more pragmatic with a touch of whimsy.

All alignments have a specific way of thinking generally, even the Chaotic ones, but that's because personality and actions define alignment, not the other way around. If you think up a three-dimensional character first, and then figure out what alignment they are, you're less likely to fall into the trap of pigeon-holing your character, even if they're the Lawfulest Lawful that ever Lawfuled, because the L in their alignment is a vague descriptor rather than a hard rule.

[137beth]

My rule is that any time you aren't sure what alignment someone is, they are neutral. If you are certain you are chaotic, but not sure what sort of chaotic, then that would make you CN.

I'd also typically leave any group in which people say "you're playing <alignment> wrong".

[AvatarVecna]

I'd also typically leave any group in which people say "you're playing <alignment> wrong".

I'd like to offer the caveat that, while blatant declarations are likely to be more due to the declarer not understanding the character than to the character being legitimately OoC as played by their player, the fact remains that the long-term characterization a player might have in mind when playing their character is not actually aligned with the alignment they say it is. For example, a Batman-esque character who spends most of his time using his well-intentioned ends to justify his incredibly violent means? That character is not Good, at least not the way I see it (prolly Neutral rather than Evil, though).

[Quertus]

Be creative. I mean, you just told me he's made of 99% trade goods and .5% magical trade goods, and also possibly a soul...

Seriously, nobody gets to tell you how to play your alignment. Your DM may tell you if you've changed alignment, but even the DM doesn't get to say "This is how you play this particular alignment." Not how it works.

Sadly, I have had many DMs in 2e who felt alignment was prescriptive. Several even had tables of "in situation X, this is how each alignment will respond". One DM was slightly more "enlightened"; his tables included race and gender. Under them, if you weren't doing what their tables said you should be doing, you weren't role-playing correctly. :(

(none of their tables matched up, of course)


So much has been said that I wanted to say. Like "ultimate selfish" being Neutral Evil, explicitly so.

I never thought of Calvin as being Chaotic Neutral, though it makes perfect sense. Gods, I love that comic...

Anyway, all this kind of reminds me of a D&D-based webcomic, where one player was playing a Chaotic Evil (4e, mind) Barbarian... and during a roleplay event, chose to side with the party over personal gain. The DM called foul on this, citing previous behaviors and her alignment, at which point the player basically said, "I only chose Chaotic Evil because it's the only alignment I can play where no one will b**** at me for acting out of alignment. I do what I want, and if that means sticking with the party, that's what I'm doing."

So, is there an alignment in 3.5 where I don't have to worry about people complaining that I'm acting out of alignment, as though alignment is some kind of caste or social code that people must follow at all times? Chaotic Neutral gives that vibe, but I think being Chaotic implies that you're actively opposed to regulation and order, at least on yourself, and I'm thinking more pragmatic with a touch of whimsy.

I think it depends on the group. See my above comments.

I personally think alignment is the worst thing to happen to role-playing in the history of RPGs. It got to the point where I wouldn't write an alignment on my sheet any more - if the DM cared, they could write one in for me, but I would just play my character.

And, although I am glad that there is so much general agreement on alignment these days, I have to ask - wouldn't acting on a whim be true neutral? Wouldn't acting on base animal instinct, just doing what you feel like doing right now, with no concern for moral implications or societal structures, like an animal supposedly does, be true neutral behavior?

[Seto]

And, although I am glad that there is so much general agreement on alignment these days, I have to ask - wouldn't acting on a whim be true neutral? Wouldn't acting on base animal instinct, just doing what you feel like doing right now, with no concern for moral implications or societal structures, like an animal supposedly does, be true neutral behavior?

Pitching in. The general answer to your question is yes. Being none-too-concerned about morals and laws and doing "what seems to be a good idea" is True Neutral. But there are exceptions : if your actions are really extreme, they might warrant another alignment than TN. Likewise, if your lack of concern for moral implications and/or societal structures leads you to do immoral or socially destructive things a lot (and no moral or socially cohesive things, because you have no concern for that), the scales will inevitably tip towards Evil or Chaos. They're much less likely to tip towards Good or Law (unless you have a very unusual "instinct"), because both G and L require restraint on some level, when E and C are more about unrestrained self-expression and empowerment.

[Dusk Raven]

I know right? He's like a textbook example of how to play a CN character without being a total ass about it.

Come to think of it, there's one strip where Calvin states, basically, "There are some people who are pragmatists, taking the best option from what they have. Some people stick to principles and never back down. And some just act on any whim that enters their heads." A while back I realized that's a good description for neutral, lawful, and chaotic. More or less. Calvin, of course, says, "I pragmatically turn my whims into principles!"

[AvatarVecna]

Come to think of it, there's one strip where Calvin states, basically, "There are some people who are pragmatists, taking the best option from what they have. Some people stick to principles and never back down. And some just act on any whim that enters their heads." A while back I realized that's a good description for neutral, lawful, and chaotic. More or less. Calvin, of course, says, "I pragmatically turn my whims into principles!"

One way or another, I will end up quoting that line in my handbook; it's just too good not to use.

[tadkins]

My rule is that any time you aren't sure what alignment someone is, they are neutral. If you are certain you are chaotic, but not sure what sort of chaotic, then that would make you CN.

I'd also typically leave any group in which people say "you're playing <alignment> wrong".

I was in a game like this once. I played a lawful good dwarven runepriest in a 4e game. He made a comment about supporting the downfall of a clearly lawful evil (emphasis Eeeeeevil!) regime and the DM said "that's not how lawful good would think". I shrugged and said "f*** it then make me neutral good, idk".

I like to think most people are a bit more complicated than a simple paragraph on the alignment description section.

[SangoProduction]

My rule is that any time you aren't sure what alignment someone is, they are neutral. If you are certain you are chaotic, but not sure what sort of chaotic, then that would make you CN.

I'd also typically leave any group in which people say "you're playing <alignment> wrong".

I wouldn't leave (unless it becomes a serious issue...or someone makes the paladin fall for protecting his party members). But I would tell them off, most definitely. "It's Chaotic Neutral. It's freedom with compunctions about doing evil, but without will to do great good. I'm free to do what I want."

[elonin]

I've always thought alignment is less what you do and more why you do it.

I agree with this 100%.

Have wondered for some time if alignment is just about maintaining a certain reputation. Robin Hood is someone who is generally thought of as CG but I'd argue that he gave to the poor so they wouldn't turn on him.

[Drynwyn]

Helping people who can't help themselves is definitely a Good action. However:


A character can have individual traits that are in conflict with his alignment.

From the 3.5 PHB: "Tordek, the Lawful Good fighter, will sometimes steal if he can justify it to himself." It's literally in the rules that you can have traits that conflict with your alignment.

A Chaotic Neutral character can take Good actions without suddenly being "wrong" for doing that while Chaotic Neutral- doubly so if the Good actions follow a consistent theme.


A Neutral Evil assassin might have a soft spot for street children, recalling his own youth. A Lawful Evil necromancer might still spare a newlywed couple, a result of the wife whose loss prompted him to turn to the dark arts. A Chaotic Neutral bard might consistently obey local Performer's Guild ordinances out of respect for fellows. A Neutral Good fighter might torture someone for information. A Lawful Good sorcerer might Maximized Lightning Bolt someone who badmouths his mum. A Chaotic Evil halfling might adopt a cat. And so on. Quite frankly, if your character NEVER acts out of alignment, he probably isn't as interesting as he could be.

[tadkins]

A character can have individual traits that are in conflict with his alignment.



Indeed, we play mortals. We have our strengths and failings like everyone else. We're not perfect representatives of our alignments like outsiders are. Those guys are literally made up of alignment matter. So it's okay to have aspects of "other" alignments, and it's okay to fall short of our chosen alignment now and then. That's where we have the advantage.

[ryu]

Indeed, we play mortals. We have our strengths and failings like everyone else. We're not perfect representatives of our alignments like outsiders are. Those guys are literally made up of alignment matter. So it's okay to have aspects of "other" alignments, and it's okay to fall short of our chosen alignment now and then. That's where we have the advantage.

And technically if alignment is an inherent restriction on action or attitude, being a perfect representative to any alignment is a demonstrable weakness. If you refuse to use more optimal solutions to a problem just because they're nice seeming and you're evil that's a weakness. So too if you refuse to commit violence even out of protection of others. Even if we take this to purely ideological ground I have plenty of examples of why any self respecting human would spit on the idea of not being driven purely by their own will.