Fighter or rogue first?

[Ralanr]

I'm building a new character (not for any new campaign specifically, just had a build idea and went off on that) and I can't decide if I should start as a fighter or as a rogue. I'm planning on a battlemaster fighter and mastermind rogue class that specializes in giving his allies advantages. And before people point out purple dragon knight, that subclass seems like it gets weaker if you multiclass. Feel free to convince me away from battlemaster with it though.

Stats are as follows (Dragonborn)
15 str
13 dex
13 con
12 int
10 wis
11 cha

My DM is using a new point buy system that uses 12 points and I have a habit of getting rid of negatives as much as possible. I'm probably going to take at least three levels in rogue to gain access to the mastermind subclass (Because 30 foot help bonus action screams warlord).

One of the big reasons I'm not considering fighter first is due to the fighting style choice at first level (I don't like how early it's given. My first RPG tabletop I played as a duel wielder and then went single weapon because two weapons wasn't helping. In this if I didn't like my fighting style I couldn't change it) but then I lose out on con saves and I doubt I'll have enough room for feats (Was thinking magic initiate for booming blade and lighting lash, Mobile for shenanigans with Booming blade, shield master, and athlete because I could maybe find a use for that. This is all unlikely though) and ASI's, even if I'm using the extra feat classes.

Suggestions?

[MeeposFire]

It looks like you are going with str as your attack stat. If so you should go fighter first as it will give you heavy armor. Gaining con saves is very nice as a good chunk of dex saves will be mitigated if you ever get evasion and your high HP. Str saves are fairly useful to have especially compared to int saves.

As for fighting style if you are using a shield you a really have two real choices in dueling and defensive. Dueling is better the more attacks you make. Defensive is always useful (in fact it is probably the most underestimated option assuming you have good AC already). but it is also less likely to be noticed since it does not actually do anything active. Since you are multiclassing I do think that defensive is better assuming you are using heavy armor and a shield. It also lets you use any weapon at any time with no worries about getting your bonus.

[CNagy]

Pretty much always go Fighter first. There are probably a few spells where a failed Dex save does something other than damage. There are a couple of nasty spells that are Dex save for none, and those won't be mitigated by Evasion. But for the most part, a high Dex and Evasion covers your Dex save needs. Just mind those Disintegration rays.

[Ralanr]

Pretty much always go Fighter first. There are probably a few spells where a failed Dex save does something other than damage. There are a couple of nasty spells that are Dex save for none, and those won't be mitigated by Evasion. But for the most part, a high Dex and Evasion covers your Dex save needs. Just mind those Disintegration rays.

I may have misread, but I don't follow.

[CNagy]

I may have misread, but I don't follow.

Basically, Evasion is most of the way towards being a Dex save; a ton of spells and effects are Dex save for half damage, Evasion makes failures half damage (in other words, a normal pass.) So for a great majority of Dex saves, having Evasion is turns the save from fail/pass to pass/superpass. Con and Str are a better package of saves, and with Evasion doing most of a Dex save's job, you could get Resilient Wisdom and have the 3 big saves (and probably the most common minor save) taken care of.

[Ralanr]

Basically, Evasion is most of the way towards being a Dex save; a ton of spells and effects are Dex save for half damage, Evasion makes failures half damage (in other words, a normal pass.) So for a great majority of Dex saves, having Evasion is turns the save from fail/pass to pass/superpass. Con and Str are a better package of saves, and with Evasion doing most of a Dex save's job, you could get Resilient Wisdom and have the 3 big saves (and probably the most common minor save) taken care of.

Ok, so basically because I intend to mutliclass into rogue, I may get evasion which works better than dex save proficiency. But there is nothing like that for con saves, so proficiency in those are better.

Right?

[Sigreid]

It boils down to whether you want weapon and armor proficiency or skills. It looks like you wan't to be the glorious champion in the middle of the chaos and heavy armor is key. If you were going to bump your dex by 1 point, you could go rogue for the skill monkey goodness and still be very durable.

[MeeposFire]

It boils down to whether you want weapon and armor proficiency or skills. It looks like you wan't to be the glorious champion in the middle of the chaos and heavy armor is key. If you were going to bump your dex by 1 point, you could go rogue for the skill monkey goodness and still be very durable.

I believe the fighter multiclass gives you martial weapon prof so it really is between heavy armor and an extra skill.

I also think that you get combat effectiveness faster using fighter first. The reason is that fighter damage works from level 1-4 and then jumps greatly at level 5. Rogue damage upgrades consistantly but that also means that it never really jumps. To me if I went rogue first I would be happy for the rogue levels but then feel slightly lacking for the next 4 until I got my 5th level in fighter. On the other hand if I start fighter I feel like a full fledged fighter for my time in it (which at this point is very powerful) and then when I start picking up rogue levels after level 5 the extra damage enhances my current damage which makes me feel like I am constantly powering up. Both ways can owrk but I think I feel more rewarded going fighter first.

[Zman]

Fighter first, you don't need Proficiency in Dex saves, but it is great to have in Strength and Con. Costs you a skill, but nets you heavy Armor.

Fighter first is the way to go for sure.

[JellyPooga]

so it really is between heavy armor and an extra skill.

Fighter 1st gives you better Saves, 1 extra HP and Heavy Armour.
Rogue 1st gives you one extra Skill proficiency.

I think it's a pretty clear cut choice mechanically. Fluff-wise, on the other hand, it's entirely dependent on the character (I often take Rogue first because it makes more sense, to me, to have learned those roguish things as a child/youth and picked up combat prowess as an adventurer than vice versa, thought the reverse could certainly also be true!).

[Ralanr]

Fighter 1st gives you better Saves, 1 extra HP and Heavy Armour.
Rogue 1st gives you one extra Skill proficiency.

I think it's a pretty clear cut choice mechanically. Fluff-wise, on the other hand, it's entirely dependent on the character (I often take Rogue first because it makes more sense, to me, to have learned those roguish things as a child/youth and picked up combat prowess as an adventurer than vice versa, thought the reverse could certainly also be true!).

Honestly I've been talking it over with friends and I think I might start rogue first. It makes sense with how the character has developed off. Sadly I've turned to swashbuckler over mastermind (fluffing it to he has been fighting wrong. Has a 10 in strength). I'll have to try my warlord build in a campaign where I can start at a higher level. At least level 6.

Edit: on that note, anyone tried swashbuckler? How is it?

[JellyPooga]

Honestly I've been talking it over with friends and I think I might start rogue first. It makes sense with how the character has developed off.

Putting "character" before "power" is always a good choice in my book :smallwink:


anyone tried swashbuckler? How is it?

I'm in a PbP game where I will be trying Swashbuckler...but I doubt I'll be hitting Rogue 3 any time soon (as in "not this year"), so I can't help on that front!

[CNagy]

Edit: on that note, anyone tried swashbuckler? How is it?

I've played a swashbuckler through level 12, and it was a lot of fun. The Swashbuckler's ability to get sneak attack damage needs to be well-understood before you dive into combat, though--the only creature that can be within 5' of you when you use the Swashbuckler's sneak attack is your target, so you can't stand near an ally and if you get swarmed by enemies you need to fall back on getting advantage/attacking enemies that are next to your allies like a typical rogue. Or just Disengage and back away to the corner of the swarm so you can pick off one of the enemies before pulling further back into more accommodating terrain.

The Initiative bonus from Charisma is nice, and the Swashbuckler multiclasses very nicely with the Charisma casters. Going the Lore Bard route you might as well rename yourself Skills Masterson, and between Panache and Cutting Words you can tear opponents to shreds in one on one. Valor Bard nets you better armor proficiencies, a 2nd attack, and gives other people in your party a nice emergency AC boost. Warlock will net you the 2nd attack if you want it (Blade pact) but it can also get you those nifty new attack cantrips. Sorcerer has a ton of options. Obviously, it also multiclasses well with the Fighter, because Fighter and Rogue go together like peanutbutter and chocolate.

If you go as far as level 9 with the Swashbuckler, Panache can change the way your party is treated out of combat from then on. If you grab expertise in Persuasion, then at level 9 you'll have +8 (+your Cha modifier) to Persuasion against their Insight check, to put them under a Charm that doesn't have the consequences of the magic spell. At level 11, you're a social machine--reliable talent and expertise in Persuasion make you able to charm pretty much any NPC that is otherwise neutral to the party. In combat, Panache will draw selected opponents to you, is a great way to pull an unexpected attack from your more vulnerable party members and setup your kind of sneak attack.