Hold Me, Smite Me

[PeteNutButter]

Since I have a free rebuild on my adventurer's league characters. (Thanks SCAG) As a 5th Level character I was looking at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3 with plans to continue Sorc indefinitely.

Here is the gimmick: Cast quickened hold person, cast booming blade and smite.

If enemy fails hold person save, it gets attacked with advantage for auto crit since they are paralyzed. Dealing 10d8+7 dmg[(1d8 wep +1d8 BB +3d8 for 2nd level smite burn)x2 for crit +3 str +2 dueling and +2 because I happen to have a +2 weapon.] That's 52 damage for a 5th level character in one round.

If they make the save you probably just burn a 1st level slot for smite and be sad.

Obviously this only works on humanoids and burns most of the characters resources at this level. They would have to burn a 1st level spell slot just to get enough points to quicken again.
At higher levels this becomes much more sustainable and you can start the turn against groups of tough enemies such as an anti-party by casting hold person on all of them with one spell, then advance to the one that failed their save and slap them for 16d8+numbers. (5d8 Smite +2d8 BB + 1d8 wep)x2 by 11th level. You could even twin the BB. Not as much damage as the fighter but impressive for one attack. Furthermore if the fighter goes before the enemy gets another chance to save, they will definitely be red mist.

Am I missing something? Let me know if I math poorly or if you know of a better way to do this. (Don't just say be a pure wizard or cleric and let the fighters/rogues do all the nasty damages after you cast the save or suck spells.)

[MaxWilson]

Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me?

The main flaw I can see in this plan is that most monsters aren't vulnerable to Hold Person; and anyone who fails his saving throw vs. paralyzation is already in for a world of pain even if you don't smite. It's sort of like planning how to kick a man once he is down--most of the problem consists in getting him down in the first place.

That doesn't make it a bad (unfun) plan--I just predict that that's where the bulk of your frustrations will occur.

Also, watch out for Counterspell, Darkness/Invisibility, and stealthy enemies. If I were an anti-party I sure wouldn't fight you toe-to-toe.

[E’Tallitnics]

Since I have a free rebuild on my adventurer's league characters. (Thanks SCAG) As a 5th Level character I was looking at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3 with plans to continue Sorc indefinitely.

Here is the gimmick: Cast quickened hold person, cast booming blade and smite.

If enemy fails hold person save, it gets attacked with advantage for auto crit since they are paralyzed. Dealing 10d8+7 dmg[(1d8 wep +1d8 BB +3d8 for 2nd level smite burn)x2 for crit +3 str +2 dueling and +2 because I happen to have a +2 weapon.] That's 52 damage for a 5th level character in one round.

If they make the save you probably just burn a 1st level slot for smite and be sad.

Obviously this only works on humanoids and burns most of the characters resources at this level. They would have to burn a 1st level spell slot just to get enough points to quicken again.
At higher levels this becomes much more sustainable and you can start the turn against groups of tough enemies such as an anti-party by casting hold person on all of them with one spell, then advance to the one that failed their save and slap them for 16d8+numbers. (5d8 Smite +2d8 BB + 1d8 wep)x2 by 11th level. You could even twin the BB. Not as much damage as the fighter but impressive for one attack. Furthermore if the fighter goes before the enemy gets another chance to save, they will definitely be red mist.

Am I missing something? Let me know if I math poorly or if you know of a better way to do this. (Don't just say be a pure wizard or cleric and let the fighters/rogues do all the nasty damages after you cast the save or suck spells.)

Have you considered Sorcerer 6 / Paladin 14?

[PeteNutButter]

I realize it's only viable against a minority of enemies, which can vary greatly from campaign to campaign on how often you face humanoids. Hold Monster comes online at 11th level!
What I am trying to do is capitalize on the effect immediately so the save every turn aspect doesn't really hinder the spells efficiency. If the target didn't get a save every turn then this strategy would be utter garbage as a win more strategy.

The reality is this gimmick requires no tunnel vision, I just pick the spell for one of my spells known. When I'm fighting anything else I can be slinging other quickened spells and laying out the boom boom smites.

As for going further into paladin... I considered it, and still may, but the thought of being only two levels behind a full wizard on spells available, and one level behind on spell slots is just amazing. Only lose one HP per level as a dragon sorc, but am missing out on some amazing class abilities for paladin. BUT I have no oath pre level 3 paladin so no harsh rp restrictions.

Furthermore the sorcery points are essential. Quickened spell as a full caster is ok, but if you can quicken something big then smite every round...
Smite will do a lot more damage than a cantrip.

IMO way more scary than those paladin/warlock smiters.

[Blood of Gaea]

Cast quickened hold person, cast booming blade and smite.

This would be fine... except your giving up extra attack, and at this level that's a pretty big deal.

My favorite Paladin/Sorcerer build is 12 Paladin/8 Sorcerer, taking levels in the order of 6 Paladin, 3 Sorcerer, 12 Paladin, 8 Sorcerer.

Alternatively, 3 Warlock also gets you Hold Person, short rest spell slots (AKA 2 smites per short rest), a Pact Boon, and a couple incantations (Devil's Sight or Agonizing Blast and Fiendish Vigor).

While not apparent at first glance, Paladin/Warlock actually has heaps, and heaps of synergies.

[CNagy]

Here is the gimmick: Cast quickened hold person, cast booming blade and smite.

Sooo... Hold Me, Smite Me, Crit Me, Kite Me.

[silveralen]

It's not a bad build, but you have two hurdles:

1. Cha vs Dex/Str balancing will be hard. A low cha makes it unlikely for hold person to stick. A low str/dex hurts you whenever you don't use this tactic. This is compounded by delayig an ASI.

2. You miss out on the goodies at 5th and 6th of paladin, which are very nice.

3. Your benefit is minimal. You sacrifice a 2nd level slot to double the damage on a smite. If you just waited for extra attack, you could smite with both slots, and have two attacks rather than one booming blade cantrip.

4. Doubling the damage on booming blade is a bit of a grey area tbh.

[CNagy]

4. Doubling the damage on booming blade is a bit of a grey area tbh.

It's an attack roll, so there is no reason that it shouldn't be subject to critical hits. Critical hit rules say anything that adds damage dice to the attack is likewise doubled. It's a coin flip on whether or not the conditional movement damage is doubled, but my gut instinct is no.

[Safety Sword]

One trick gimmick builds are going to bite you eventually. Probably literally. In the face. With giants.

[PeteNutButter]

Update: Ran with the build today with resounding success. Booming blade is nearly as good or better than a second attack. If they trigger booming blade its a total of 3d8 more dmg at this level, which is likely better than another attack. If not than the only damage your missing is that str+dueling Mod. (That's assuming you don't smite on a second attack.)
With a second attack and two smites you could do the almost the same damage, but with sorcerer levels I quickly end up with more spell slots to smite with. When an enemy does fail the save(Hold Person) it is undeniably better than the two smites, via more damage, more team set up damage, and don't forget CC.

Anecdotal: It worked beautifully during today's session, I saved the majority of my spells for the final encounter. Burnt the Quickened Hold Person. It landed. I one-shot the big nasty enemy caster that had just hit me with a lightning bolt.

Really I think its foolish to say the build is a one-trick pony since I can just cast other spells when I'm facing anything else, or just BB smite. Paladin smite is one of the only abilities in the game that actually gets STRONGER by multiclassing. (Not just synergies with, but more raw power.) Right now I can't think of a better gish build since only sorcerer can have the action economy of Quicken Spell for bonus action combined with a hard hitting single attack (BB smite) to utilize that cantrip only second spell cast per turn. The build actually started as a thought exercise on how to make the most out of quickened spell, and I don't think I've scratched the surface of what this character could do.

[PeteNutButter]

It's not a bad build, but you have two hurdles:

In direct reply:
1. Cha vs Dex/Str balancing will be hard. A low cha makes it unlikely for hold person to stick. A low str/dex hurts you whenever you don't use this tactic. This is compounded by delayig an ASI.

2. You miss out on the goodies at 5th and 6th of paladin, which are very nice.

3. Your benefit is minimal. You sacrifice a 2nd level slot to double the damage on a smite. If you just waited for extra attack, you could smite with both slots, and have two attacks rather than one booming blade cantrip.

4. Doubling the damage on booming blade is a bit of a grey area tbh.

1. It has to be a Str cha balance since you need 13 str to multiclass w paladin and that's just too MAD w dex. This is an issue, but I think I'll do the str first, and unfortunately not get 18 cha till level 14. 5% on saves isn't near as good as +1 hit and dmg every round.

2. Really that level 6... so good, yet opportunity cost isn't just about the cost, but also opportunity. 9th Level spells are likely stronger than a few more levels of paladin. (or whatever level of spells the game goes to)

3. Benefit may be minimal now, but once I'm casting quickened Hold enemy team (or really any higher level spell) and smiting... it'll make the pure paladin sad he can't do that. Don't undervalue that CC.

4. Addressed by another poster, but the secondary damage would not crit.

[MaxWilson]

Update: Ran with the build today with resounding success. Booming blade is nearly as good or better than a second attack. If they trigger booming blade its a total of 3d8 more dmg at this level, which is likely better than another attack. If not than the only damage your missing is that str+dueling Mod. (That's assuming you don't smite on a second attack.) *snip* Paladin smite is one of the only abilities in the game that actually gets STRONGER by multiclassing. (Not just synergies with, but more raw power.)

Remark: Paladin smiting gets more endurance but less raw power if you multiclass early, because with two attacks you can smite twice but with Booming Blade you can only smite once. So your total number of smites per day goes up, but your peak smites per round goes down, unless you Twin Booming Blade.

I'm glad you're happy with your build. And it's good to hear that you're open to expanding into other tactics than Hold Person--from your initial post I had the impression that you were planning on making that your signature move, which would be unfortunate. But since you're branching out--Sorcerers have lots of really cool stuff they can do. Careful Web is a classic, and (Quickened?) Animate Objects is pure awesomesauce.

[silveralen]

1. It has to be a Str cha balance since you need 13 str to multiclass w paladin and that's just too MAD w dex. This is an issue, but I think I'll do the str first, and unfortunately not get 18 cha till level 14. 5% on saves isn't near as good as +1 hit and dmg every round.

2. Really that level 6... so good, yet opportunity cost isn't just about the cost, but also opportunity. 9th Level spells are likely stronger than a few more levels of paladin. (or whatever level of spells the game goes to)

3. Benefit may be minimal now, but once I'm casting quickened Hold enemy team (or really any higher level spell) and smiting... it'll make the pure paladin sad he can't do that. Don't undervalue that CC.

4. Addressed by another poster, but the secondary damage would not crit.

1. which again makes me question the build's usefulness.

2. Maybe... but the issue being you are built such that you aren't actually good at using them. Your spells will be both of lower level and lower DC than an actual caster. You also will have to choose between those spells and smites, which is why an always on buff can be nice by comparison.

3. You aren't good CC with hold person, thanks to a subpar DC and lower level spell slots/spells. However, if you want to be better CC, Sorcerers have quite a few. Careful + any of the area of effect spells (web, stinking cloud, confusion, hypnotic image, etc) are generally some of the best CC options in the game. Hold person is a very poor CC option, as it requires higher slots (which you lag behind in) to effect multiple targets. Simply disabling enemies is better done via other spells, hold person is setting them up for the kill thanks to the excellent debuff aspects..

Now, what I do see is you moving into other areas. Twined booming blade for example is an extremely smart move, and a nice way to double smite. That generally means your burst damage won't suffer, with a strength focus your double smite turns end up being more effective than a normal paladin's (thanks to the extra booming blade damage) at the cost of only a single sorcery point. Your round to round damage lags only slightly behind.

Me personally, I'd rather focus on paladin with 4 levels of sorc. Being able to quicken booming blade to launch three smites in a turn sounds great for burst damage. Which is still an option for you down the line.

[CNagy]

1. It has to be a Str cha balance since you need 13 str to multiclass w paladin and that's just too MAD w dex. This is an issue, but I think I'll do the str first, and unfortunately not get 18 cha till level 14. 5% on saves isn't near as good as +1 hit and dmg every round.

2. Really that level 6... so good, yet opportunity cost isn't just about the cost, but also opportunity. 9th Level spells are likely stronger than a few more levels of paladin. (or whatever level of spells the game goes to)

3. Benefit may be minimal now, but once I'm casting quickened Hold enemy team (or really any higher level spell) and smiting... it'll make the pure paladin sad he can't do that. Don't undervalue that CC.

4. Addressed by another poster, but the secondary damage would not crit.

You're free to play it however you want, of course, but the way you describe it you are making one character and trying to play a different one. If you go Paladin2/SorcererX, you are a Sorcerer. And if you are a Sorcerer, then Cha trumps Str in importance for ASIs. A 16 in Str will carry a secondary attacker for a long time, but stalling the effectiveness of your largest and most versatile resource will make you a subpar Sorcerer more than the 2 levels you give up in spell knowledge from your dip.

[PeteNutButter]

You're free to play it however you want, of course, but the way you describe it you are making one character and trying to play a different one. If you go Paladin2/SorcererX, you are a Sorcerer. And if you are a Sorcerer, then Cha trumps Str in importance for ASIs. A 16 in Str will carry a secondary attacker for a long time, but stalling the effectiveness of your largest and most versatile resource will make you a subpar Sorcerer more than the 2 levels you give up in spell knowledge from your dip.

You are absolutely right, I had just come to the same conclusion and decided I will buff Cha once I reach level 6. The +1 to hit and dmg is minimal especially if many of the spells I cast grant me advantage on attacking. It's more important to make sure those spells land. I had thought before that bumping cha was weaker, because it lacks the bonus spells aspect from 3.x, but save DCs are hard to increase in 5e, so it is still worth it.

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks everyone for the tips, I hadn't realized the potential for Careful Spell. I will take it for my next metamagic. For now I have Quicken and Twin.

The twinned Booming Blade is nice, I did it once during the session, effectively ending the encounter by hitting both enemies w a level 1 smite BB. Although it is more raw damage than two attacks w smite, I'd say its generally weaker since you are hitting two enemies and enemies with 1 or more hp do the same damage to us as enemies w full hp. It's better to skill something, but it does synergize well with the party wizard throwing AoE.

I wanted to note that due to multiclassing I will always get spell slots one level before I actually get the spells for said slots, casting spells such as Hold Person on two targets is my optimal play for 50% of my levels. Every even level I will gain spell slots for whatever level my party wizard had gained last level, but no spells to fill them. In fact I was looking for spells that are best when cast one level higher. Any suggestions?

For example: I might say take fireball when I hit level 7, but will want something better than a 9d6 fireball for level 8 when I have 4th level slots.

[CNagy]

Regarding Twin Spell: Booming Blade rocks, but if you have enough cantrip space for it, Greenflame Blade is another good choice. Jeremy Crawford just clarified on Twitter that the intent is that you can choose whether or not the cantrip deals damage to a secondary target, so there are no worries about not being able to use the cantrip or having to engage in friendly fire.

But with twin spell, you can basically hit both targets with Greenflame Blade and have the extra damage target each other if they are close enough. Alternatively, you could have the extra damage from both attacks target a 3rd enemy out of reach if your Smite Cantrips kill your first targets outright. It depends on enemy placement, but situationally it can be a more effective strategy.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks everyone for the tips, I hadn't realized the potential for Careful Spell. I will take it for my next metamagic. For now I have Quicken and Twin.

The twinned Booming Blade is nice, I did it once during the session, effectively ending the encounter by hitting both enemies w a level 1 smite BB. Although it is more raw damage than two attacks w smite, I'd say its generally weaker since you are hitting two enemies and enemies with 1 or more hp do the same damage to us as enemies w full hp. It's better to skill something, but it does synergize well with the party wizard throwing AoE.

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from doing both. Twinned Booming Blade makes you make two weapon attacks with bonus damage and a rider; smiting is allowed whenever you hit an enemy with a melee weapon attack; ergo you can smite them both if you hit on top of the Booming Blade.

Twinned Booming Blade is way cheaper and more efficient than smiting, but if you ever need the raw nova power at least it's good to have the option.

[silveralen]

Oh right you can't have twin target a single character. Still, you can quicken booming blade (or green flame blade) and double smite a single target that way, for an extra sorc point. Which still means you can match the burst damage of a normal pally, though if you go charisma you'll want to keep advantage on them for those big hits which is a better usage of quicken generally. Does mean you can't quite beat stock pally at his own game (at least not without burning higher level spells) which is probably better for balance.

Also, are you going dragon, wild, or storm? I ask because, with green flame now confirmed working even without a second target nearby, you can get a bit more mileage out of your at will damage that way if you take fire. The extra HP also helps of course, though I honestly don't know how the others compare.

Also, if it isn't too late, you probably want your first level to be in sorcerer if you plan to be tossing around a lot of concentration spells, to get a better con save. Your AC will carry you to a degree, but in this instance con>wis as far as saves go. Might be too late but I wanted to mention, dunno if that loses you some armor/weapon profs as well.

[PeteNutButter]

Regarding Twin Spell: Booming Blade rocks, but if you have enough cantrip space for it, Greenflame Blade is another good choice. Jeremy Crawford just clarified on Twitter that the intent is that you can choose whether or not the cantrip deals damage to a secondary target, so there are no worries about not being able to use the cantrip or having to engage in friendly fire.

But with twin spell, you can basically hit both targets with Greenflame Blade and have the extra damage target each other if they are close enough. Alternatively, you could have the extra damage from both attacks target a 3rd enemy out of reach if your Smite Cantrips kill your first targets outright. It depends on enemy placement, but situationally it can be a more effective strategy.

I had initially thought the same, but unfortunately I'm pretty sure most DMs would say you can't twin GFB because it hits two targets. I can see the grey area though, since it's secondary effect.

I did go dragon sorcerer, mostly for that extra hp a level. Paladin was my first level for the Heavy Armor and more hps again. I really need those hps as a front liner. To be fair on con vs wis saves, most of my concentraion spells so far are debilitating so that if I'm concentrating, I am likely not to be taking damage. At least not from the enemy(ies) I'm concentrating on. I also have the Warcaster feat as a human variant, which helps. str 16, dex 10, con 14, int 8, wis 8, cha 16. Plate and shield gives me an AC of 20, 25 if I shield. Hps at level 5 are 41.

I'm likely one of the most durable party members having fewer hps than the fighter but better AC since he is great weapon. I also have the trick of casting cure wounds quickened of whatever my highest spell slot is and keep swinging.

[silveralen]

Wait, adventurer league allows feats? Huh I didn't realize.

[MaxWilson]

]I also have the Warcaster feat as a human variant, which helps. str 16, dex 10, con 14, int 8, wis 8, cha 16. Plate and shield gives me an AC of 20, 25 if I shield. Hps at level 5 are 41.

I'm likely one of the most durable party members having fewer hps than the fighter but better AC since he is great weapon. I also have the trick of casting cure wounds quickened of whatever my highest spell slot is and keep swinging.

Warcaster + Booming Blade gives you some great and very tanky options. For example, you can move into melee with an enemy and Dodge as your action. Between Dodge disadvantage and Shield it's basically impossible for the enemy to hit you, but if he tries to bypass you can make it very painful for him via Booming Blade. (That does preclude Shield that round, but at least he's still at Disadvantage.)

Also, Dodging makes Shield very efficient because you rarely have to actually spell a spell slot on it--it's a mostly-latent capability.

Quickened Blur and Quickened Mirror Image are worthwhile as well.

What fighting style did you learn?

[Dralnu]

Yeah, my "jedi" character is going to be Paladin 6 / Sorc X for these exact types of shenanigans. Would very much like Extra Attack though, and at that point might as well get that crazy good Aura at 6th. The d10 HP doesn't hurt either.

[PeteNutButter]

I went with dueling style for the damage. Defense wouldn't have been bad either I suppose, but with the high level monsters having plus 13 to hit and magic armor being a big maybe... Seems to me making investments into AC just isn't worth what it used to be.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, my "jedi" character is going to be Paladin 6 / Sorc X for these exact types of shenanigans. Would very much like Extra Attack though, and at that point might as well get that crazy good Aura at 6th. The d10 HP doesn't hurt either.

Consider Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorc X.

What you get out of this:

1.) More low-level slots: Shield spell or Hex or Cure Wounds or Sanctuary 2/short rest.

2.) A powerful and effective ranged attack (Agonizing Blast)

3.) Devil's Sight or Repelling Blast or Misty Visions or whatever you choose.

4.) Quickened Armor of Agathys V for you and your steed when you need it.

5.) Three more spells known (e.g. Hex/Expeditious Retreat/Armor of Agathys) to relieve some pressure on your Sorcerer spells known

6.) Telepathy if you steal knowledge from Cthulhu (or Dark One's Blessing temp HP if you make a deal with a Fiend, which a Paladin of Devotion should not do but a Paladin of Vengeance might). I like the Paladin of Devotion fluff so it's Telepathy for me.

7.) (Munchkin alert!) Can regain 2 sorcery points per short rest by converting Warlock slots, and dump them into Sorcerer spell slots, thus gaining arbitrary numbers of spell slots over time as long as you never long rest. Even if you don't do this for fear of the DM's wrath, the ability to effectively regain 4 sorcery points over the course of a two-hour short rest isn't half bad and lets you Quicken/Twin things more often.

What you lose: your highest level of Sorcerer spells. E.g. Paladin 9/Sorc 9/Warlock 2 maxes out at Animate Objects/Wall of Stone, whereas Paladin 9/Sorc 11 can Mass Suggestion, and Paladin 11/Sorc 9 gets Improved Smite for +d8 radiant damage on every attack. Mass Suggestion is great, but personally I think points #1 through #6 above outweigh it.


I went with dueling style for the damage. Defense wouldn't have been bad either I suppose, but with the high level monsters having plus 13 to hit and magic armor being a big maybe... Seems to me making investments into AC just isn't worth what it used to be.

It definitely depends on how your DM runs his table and what role you expect to play in the party. +13 to hit isn't that hard to beat though. Between Shield of Faith, Defense style, full plate and shield and the Shield spell, +13 will hit your AC 28 only 30% of the time. If you're a Devil's Sight paladorlock you can cast Quickened Darkness instead of Shield of Faith and have AC 26 plus Darkness, which means a non-blindsight/tremorsight/truesight enemy's +13 will hit you only 16% of the time, and you also have advantage to attack them and cannot trigger their opportunity attacks. (If you don't have Devil's Sight, Blur has similar defensive benefits but no offensive benefits.)

Without defense style you'll be hit 35% of the time with Shield of Faith and 20% of the time with Blur. Defense style isn't a huge increase in effectiveness, only 20%, but it's still nice.

[Malifice]

Since I have a free rebuild on my adventurer's league characters. (Thanks SCAG) As a 5th Level character I was looking at Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3 with plans to continue Sorc indefinitely.

Here is the gimmick: Cast quickened hold person, cast booming blade and smite.

If enemy fails hold person save, it gets attacked with advantage for auto crit since they are paralyzed. Dealing 10d8+7 dmg[(1d8 wep +1d8 BB +3d8 for 2nd level smite burn)x2 for crit +3 str +2 dueling and +2 because I happen to have a +2 weapon.] That's 52 damage for a 5th level character in one round.

If they make the save you probably just burn a 1st level slot for smite and be sad.

Obviously this only works on humanoids and burns most of the characters resources at this level. They would have to burn a 1st level spell slot just to get enough points to quicken again.
At higher levels this becomes much more sustainable and you can start the turn against groups of tough enemies such as an anti-party by casting hold person on all of them with one spell, then advance to the one that failed their save and slap them for 16d8+numbers. (5d8 Smite +2d8 BB + 1d8 wep)x2 by 11th level. You could even twin the BB. Not as much damage as the fighter but impressive for one attack. Furthermore if the fighter goes before the enemy gets another chance to save, they will definitely be red mist.

Am I missing something? Let me know if I math poorly or if you know of a better way to do this. (Don't just say be a pure wizard or cleric and let the fighters/rogues do all the nasty damages after you cast the save or suck spells.)

In a nutshell you're making one attack that deals double damage if it hits. So it is virtually identical to just making two seperate attacks?

Extra attack is far better, you get the same damage (2 x attacks instead of 1 x attack doing double damage), without also having to first use your bonus action, have a humanoid target, and have them fail a saving throw to pull off.

It sounds like a lot of effort to do something you could do anyway, with zero investment (and be one level away from +cha to saves, and have an extra feat/ ASI at your disposal).

[PeteNutButter]

In a nutshell you're making one attack that deals double damage if it hits. So it is virtually identical to just making two seperate attacks?

Extra attack is far better, you get the same damage (2 x attacks instead of 1 x attack doing double damage), without also having to first use your bonus action, have a humanoid target, and have them fail a saving throw to pull off.

It sounds like a lot of effort to do something you could do anyway, with zero investment (and be one level away from +cha to saves, and have an extra feat/ ASI at your disposal).

Yes... but in so many ways no. For starters a 5th level paladin can't do 10d8+. He'll do 8d8++. If I twin booming blade it will do 5d8+ to a different target and possibly plus another 4d8 in the unlikely event they somehow both live and move. (The held target would have to have someone cast lesser restoration on it) The Hold Person effect negates at least the enemy's next turn which is huge since this is for enemy humanoid bosses, as it's clearly not worth the resources at this level on minions. And it doubles all of your allies damage against it as well, if they go before it.

Yes, extra attack is very strong and the cha to saves is amazing but the idea is that with booming blade and Green Flame Blade I can actually dodge extra attack altogether, without giving up much. I'll do the same if not more damage, but it requires a bit more thought and set up. If the Hold Person thing breaks your brain, realize I can cast quickened scorching ray and still smite BB, which is almost as much raw damage (still more than full paladin IF it all hits).

Bringing me down to the only thing I'm really missing is that level 6 ability, and its sad.
But you know who else misses it? Wizards. Would a wizard want a 4 level dip (since I'm already 2 deep) to pick up Int to saves? Tempting but I think most would stay with progression. The best counterargument for that would probably be that I'm a front liner gish so I need saves more, but imo if i take 6 levels away from full casting I'm no longer a gish, just a paladin with some flare.
That's just my opinion though.

[Malifice]

Yes... but in so many ways no. For starters a 5th level paladin can't do 10d8+. He'll do 8d8++.

Leaving bonus action attacks out of the question (you're using yours to cast; I have mine free to TWF, smack with a polearm or trigger my GWM bonus attack, which places a straight paladin 5 at much higher DPR) then I can just rely on the added strength and duelling bonus (probably around an extra +5) pretty much accounts for the 2d8 extra damage.

Also; my concentration slot is open. I can use it for other spells like hunters mark or even simply bless to well and truly do more DPR.

Vengance paladin 5. Cast hunters mark. Walk up and belt opponent with longsword + dueling + Str 3. If both hit (and I smite nova), I deal 8d8+2d6+10. Double those dice on a crit.


The Hold Person effect negates at least the enemy's next turn which is huge since this is for enemy humanoid bosses

Assuming they fail the save. And are humanoid.

You can deal the same damage with the same resource expenditure, no save allowed and against all types of targets.


If the Hold Person thing breaks your brain, realize I can cast quickened scorching ray and still smite BB, which is almost as much raw damage (still more than full paladin IF it all hits).

Im working on a Sorc/ Paladin build myself, so I'm not opposed. Ive just run the numbers, and straight Paladin is much better for the first 6 levels.


Bringing me down to the only thing I'm really missing is that level 6 ability, and its sad.

+Cha to saves is roughly the equivalent to Resilient (4 stats); about 2 or 3 feats. Its huge, and worth 6 levels of Paladin for.

Paladin multiclass cut off is 2, 6 or 11 for mine, with 6 as the best sweet spot.

[PeteNutButter]

Im working on a Sorc/ Paladin build myself, so I'm not opposed. Ive just run the numbers, and straight Paladin is much better for the first 6 levels.


I think we are on the same page here, just aiming for different goals. Paladin straight is undeniably strong. Cha to saves is indeed huge. I want to play a gish. I am using gimmicks like the hold person to shore up weakness at earlier levels for better pay offs. This character does NOT PEAK at level 5.

If I planned paladin 6, I of course want to take all 6 levels first. For that huge amount of game time I am not a gish at all. Then if I go into sorcerer at level 7, my sorcerer spells will be pretty much useless/smite fodder. The character would continue to play pretty much like a full paladin for some time after. Even at level 11, I'm not sure what level 3 sorcerer spell(s) actually compete w the always on buff to dmg, and other paladin abilities. So maybe I should take paladin 11, then I cant justify leaving a class 1 level before ASI so paladin 12 it is...

The Paladin is a very strong class, which is why it's a slippery slope kind of deal. A paladin can get up there, go nova and destroy something, all while being pretty tanky and having likely the best saves in the game.

But still not what I want to focus on... I want to play a gish. I am ok with being a little worse at that and having level 5 spells, level 6 slots at that level. Being able to use my strong list of spells to quicken something nasty then smite twice, just on two different targets via twin.

[MaxWilson]

If I planned paladin 6, I of course want to take all 6 levels first. For that huge amount of game time I am not a gish at all. Then if I go into sorcerer at level 7, my sorcerer spells will be pretty much useless/smite fodder. The character would continue to play pretty much like a full paladin for some time after.

Sorc 1 and Sorc 3 are actually pretty huge for a gish.

Paladin 6, Sorc 1: Shield is now online and you have a 2d10 ranged attack in Fire Bolt, and Expeditious Retreat provides a use for your bonus action and potentially doubles mobility.
Paladin 6, Sorc 2: Not that much qualitatively, just more spells.
Paladin 6, Sorc 3: Various offensive and defensive abilities. Twin Sanctuary, Twin Booming Blade, Quickened Greenflame Blade + Twin Booming Blade, (Quickened) Blur, Mirror Image, Enhance Ability (Stealth in full plate armor, negotiation, etc.), Quickened or Careful Web are all online. (Though you don't have enough spells known and metamagics to enable all of these simultaneously, of course. Choose the ones that appeal to you.)

That tanky flavor may not be the style of gish you're going for though.

[PeteNutButter]

Sorc 1 and Sorc 3 are actually pretty huge for a gish.

Paladin 6, Sorc 1: Shield is now online and you have a 2d10 ranged attack in Fire Bolt, and Expeditious Retreat provides a use for your bonus action and potentially doubles mobility.
Paladin 6, Sorc 2: Not that much qualitatively, just more spells.
Paladin 6, Sorc 3: Various offensive and defensive abilities. Twin Sanctuary, Twin Booming Blade, Quickened Greenflame Blade + Twin Booming Blade, (Quickened) Blur, Mirror Image, Enhance Ability (Stealth in full plate armor, negotiation, etc.), Quickened or Careful Web are all online. (Though you don't have enough spells known and metamagics to enable all of these simultaneously, of course. Choose the ones that appeal to you.)

That tanky flavor may not be the style of gish you're going for though.

If I were to use any of the defensive spells, I'd go with Mirror Image since it isn't concentration. I like the stealth in full plate with enhance ability. I hadn't thought of that, but dex is still kind of a dump stat for platies so I don't think it'll be worth it usually. Don't undervalue Sorc level 2, that's when you can start swapping spells for points and vice versa, effectively dumping 1st level spells for better ones. (Often out of combat since it takes a bonus action)

I can see how that strategy would likely be better for defense, largely because of the saves, but will lack the offensive versatility of more sorcerer levels.

[Malifice]

I think we are on the same page here, just aiming for different goals. Paladin straight is undeniably strong. Cha to saves is indeed huge. I want to play a gish. I am using gimmicks like the hold person to shore up weakness at earlier levels for better pay offs. This character does NOT PEAK at level 5.

What level does it leapfrog a straight vengance paladin in your view mate? When does it peak?


If I planned paladin 6, I of course want to take all 6 levels first. For that huge amount of game time I am not a gish at all.

Id either go human and select magic initaite [sorcerer] or just dip a single level of sorcerer for cantrips and spells at 2nd.

The golden rule with MCing from my perspective is to always aim for 5th level in a single class first. The power bumps are exponential at the 5th level breakpoint. If you have to M/C take a single level for the fluff/ concept or the 1st level Fighter dip for any class that M/C's with fighter.

That said, you mitigate this problem somewhat with Booming blade/ GFB so its not not too bad.

Its a perfectly good concept though. Guess I just see it as a fiddly and highly situational way of doing what you could already do with less effort and against a wider variety of foes.

[PeteNutButter]

When does it leapfrog?
For starters you are asking for a straight power comparison in what is the most open ended the of game.
I'd say whenever the wizard leapfrogs a the paladin this build would be a level or two after that.

When is the paladin 2/sorcerer x better? Anytime you can't melee, since the sorcerer has ranged spells; Anytime you are up against hordes of weaker creatures since the sorc can cast AoE spells; Anytime you run out of resources and the sorcerer still has some for the day etc.

The aim is not for a paladin that can do a little magic but for a sorcerer that can do something big after a quicken spell, something better than a cantrip.

[Klorox]

❤️

This thread is gold.

[Specter]

It's best to coordinate party tactics to suit this goal. According to initiative order, the caster to act right after the enemy should cast Hold Person, because it will take longer for the enemy to get another save. Or, the caster can ready an action to cast the spell after the enemy attacks or whatever.

In times like these it's good to have an Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight/Heighten Sorcerer friend with you. Disadvantage on the save? Yes please.

[Tikkun]

Aside from losing the extra melee attack by going paladin to a higher level, you also give up another class defining trait of the paladin--auras. At level 6 Aura of Protection comes online. That means any party members within 10 feet of you--and yourself--can add your CHA modifier to saving throws.

Then depending on the oath you take other goodies come online at level 7. For example, playing CoS? A devotion pally, and any party members within 10 feet of the pally, are now immune to charm. For that module the immunity is quite useful. At level 10 same goes for being frightened. Oath of Ancients at 7 gives resistance to magic damage from spells. Oath of Vengeance gives you a movement bonus as a reaction to attacks of opportunity.

Then, of course, there is the short rest Channel Divinity options, the additional LOH healing ability and the very useful Improved Divine Smite at level 11 which is a constant 1D8 radiant damage on top of your regular damage on every attack.

I could see a paladin 12/sorcerer 8 being fun. But most AL type games don't necessarily get you to level 20. The reality is somewhere between 10-15. What is most intriguing about D&D is the 'hard' choices that have to be made in character development--single class vs. multi-class, team assistance/support vs. damage dealing, etc.. There is no 'right' solution. It's why we have these forums. The discussion and theory-crafting is so interesting.

[Klorox]

In an RP sense, I think leaving Paladin at level 2, before declaring and oath, makes the most sense.

Mechanically I think it's a great option as well.

[DivisibleByZero]

Klorox, my dear friend. Will you please let this thread from 2015 die? This is the second time you've personally resurrected it.

[Ekayyy]

JeeZ, the old days before gastronomies sorcadin guide, where nubs used to argue about how Sorcadin WASN’T a top tier multiclass build.

[Arkhios]

Off topic, but for some reason this got me thinking about a grappler paladin, whose whole schtick is to have his/her opponents to be absolutely smitten on him/her :smallbiggrin:
Obviously a hedonist with Oath of the Ancients.

All you need is basically:
Tavern Brawler for higher-than-usual unarmed damage and bonus action to grapple.
Grappler for added flavor.

...You know you can smite with unarmed strikes too, right? :)


Edit: goddammit, sorry! Eyes in the morning without coffee: didn't notice the date of last post :S

[Ganymede]

It looks fine to me. Doing damage to hostile NPCs is often a good idea, but try not to pull this against powerfully connected people, against people in view of the city watch, or against people that are not actually your foes.

[UrielAwakened]

Lmao people were so bad at this game.

[Nifft]

Sooo... Hold Me, Smite Me, Crit Me, Kite Me.

I just want to recognize this cleverness.

[Klorox]

Klorox, my dear friend. Will you please let this thread from 2015 die? This is the second time you've personally resurrected it.

Can’t blame me this time, LOL.

[PeteNutButter]

JeeZ, the old days before gastronomies sorcadin guide, where nubs used to argue about how Sorcadin WASN’T a top tier multiclass build.


Lmao people were so bad at this game.

I did it before it was cool.

It's funny that 3 years later paladorc is amazballs. The only thing that's changed is possibly wanting a hexblade dip for SADness...

[UrielAwakened]

Yeah I mean it seems so intuitive in retrospect right?

A Paladin with more smites per day. Or a Sorcerer in plate mail and better saving throws. What's not to like?

[Blood of Gaea]

This would be fine... except your giving up extra attack, and at this level that's a pretty big deal.

My favorite Paladin/Sorcerer build is 12 Paladin/8 Sorcerer, taking levels in the order of 6 Paladin, 3 Sorcerer, 12 Paladin, 8 Sorcerer.

Alternatively, 3 Warlock also gets you Hold Person, short rest spell slots (AKA 2 smites per short rest), a Pact Boon, and a couple incantations (Devil's Sight or Agonizing Blast and Fiendish Vigor).

While not apparent at first glance, Paladin/Warlock actually has heaps, and heaps of synergies.
Interesting to see my thoughts on the matter from three years ago.

I still prefer Warlock over Sorcerer myself, and I'd go for 2, 3, or 6 Paladin now instead of 12.

[Arkhios]

Interesting to see my thoughts on the matter from three years ago.

I still prefer Warlock over Sorcerer myself, and I'd go for 2, 3, or 6 Paladin now instead of 12.

I think if I were to choose warlock instead of sorcerer, I'd actually take only 2 levels and use the pact magic slots to cast that hold person once or twice per short rest rather than on smites.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think if I were to choose warlock instead of sorcerer, I'd actually take only 2 levels and use the pact magic slots to cast that hold person once or twice per short rest rather than on smites.
Yeah, I would generally save smites for when they were really needed, and I don't think I would pick up Eldritch Smite at all. Getting 6 levels of Paladin is still something I would probably do for the saving throws alone, for both me and the other front liners.

I would probably go Paladin +1/Hexblade +1/Paladin +5/ Hexblade +X. I'd probably go for Vengeance or Conquest for flavor, though the others could be good too (Crown could be an interesting King Arthur expy (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Expy)).

I'd grab Elven Accuracy at CL 5 (Getting 18 Cha), then GWM at CL 10.

Going for levels in fighter could be interesting too, probably Battlemaster or Champion, that would let you get EA and GWM by CL 7, though I'm not certain if it's worth the trade-off.