Tactician-Fighter Archetype

[JNAProductions]

Tactical Strike-At level three, you may forgo your attacks to allow an ally to make an attack as a reaction. This counts as an attack for the purposes of dual wieding.

Tactical Genius-At level seven, gain proficiency in Stealth. Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

Improved Tactics-At tenth level, you may make a single attack in addition to your Tactical Strike or allow the same ally to move their movement speed as well as attack.

Master Tactics-At fifteenth level, you may make two attacks in addition to your Tactical Strike or allow one additional ally to make an attack. Only one ally may benefit from movement, though.

Perfection In War-At eighteenth level, you can allow an ally to take any action instead of simply the attack action.

[PoeticDwarf]

Tactical Strike-At level three, you may forgo your attacks to allow an ally to make an attack as a reaction. This counts as an attack for the purposes of dual wieding.

Tactical Genius-At level seven, gain proficiency in Stealth. Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

Improved Tactics-At tenth level, you may make a single attack in addition to your Tactical Strike or allow the same ally to move their movement speed as well as attack.

Master Tactics-At fifteenth level, you may make two attacks in addition to your Tactical Strike or allow one additional ally to make an attack. Only one ally may benefit from movement, though.

Perfection In War-At eighteenth level, you can allow an ally to take any action instead of simply the attack action.

I will reply because nobody did yet.

I like the idea, but how you worked it out is not really nice

The third level feature is cool, but just eats reaction of enemies, often (except with barbs, and high level clerics/paladins) just weak.

The level 7 feature is weak, doesn't fit and adds nothing

The other features are combined with later features unclear, and still don't add much. The level 18 feature is strange because they just make attacks no attack action

Overall weak and strange, not saying to be mean or sonething but I just can't see this work

[JNAProductions]

I will reply because nobody did yet.

Thanks.

I like the idea, but how you worked it out is not really nice

The third level feature is cool, but just eats reaction of enemies, often (except with barbs, and high level clerics/paladins) just weak.

How does it the enemies' reactions? It uses your allies' reactions. And, while it might be weaker at higher levels, it improves over time. It's actually pretty potent when you get it, since it can easily be a free Sneak Attack from a Rogue Ally. I definitely agree this isn't going to be very good in ALL parties, but it's designed as support. If your party can't use it properly, then you probably should've picked a different archetype.

The level 7 feature is weak, doesn't fit and adds nothing

I'm AFB right now, but aren't all the level 7 Fighter features kinda weak? So that'd be appropriate. In addition, to me at least, it does fit, since in order to truly make the most of your tactics, stealth is an invaluable tool.

The other features are combined with later features unclear, and still don't add much. The level 18 feature is strange because they just make attacks no attack action

How are they unclear? I thought I worded them pretty plainly. And the 18th level feature specifically allows them to take actions other than Attacking, such as Dashing, Disengaging, or even casting a spell.

Overall weak and strange, not saying to be mean or sonething but I just can't see this work

Thank you for your feedback, but I think you're underestimating how useful giving allies such as Rogues free attacks can be. That being said, if you could clarify where my words are confusing, I'll try to clean up the language a little.

[AvatarVecna]

Tactical Strike-At level three, you may forgo your attacks to allow an ally to make an attack as a reaction. This counts as an attack for the purposes of dual wieding.

Tactical Genius-At level seven, gain proficiency in Stealth. Creeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

Improved Tactics-At tenth level, you may make a single attack in addition to your Tactical Strike or allow the same ally to move their movement speed as well as attack.

Master Tactics-At fifteenth level, you may make two attacks in addition to your Tactical Strike or allow one additional ally to make an attack. Only one ally may benefit from movement, though.

Perfection In War-At eighteenth level, you can allow an ally to take any action instead of simply the attack action.

Honestly, the basic idea seems like an interesting mechanic to include for the fighter (I like the idea of a Fighter that has some built-in action economy abuse), but I think the sub-class as a whole isn't very good. I don't think it's very good because it essentially only does one thing, and it just gradually gets better at doing that one thing; for a class designed for tactics, it doesn't really give any options beyond "attack" and "give up your attacks to an ally". Until 18th lvl, your Ally can't even do anything with that extra action other than attack...and because you're a Fighter, your attack action is almost universally going to be a better idea than giving your attack action to an ally, making that one thing you can do a normal Fighter can't into a thing that you rarely do. As it currently exists, a Battlemaster is more of a tactical master than this, and I can't really think of a reason I'd want to play this class instead of playing a Fighter dipping Rogue. I'm playing a Fighter 5/Rogue 1 in my IRL game, so when I say I'd rather play that than this, it's based on experience with the alternative, rather than just theory. Hell, even a Fighter/Valor Bard, maybe...

There's three ways I would suggest you change this class:

Firstly, change Tactical Strike to be "you may forgo one attack on your turn; in exchange, one ally of your choice within sight can use their reaction to gain an action that must be used immediately. This action can only be used to make an attack"; this builds parts of Improved/Master Tactics into the original ability, allowing your higher level abilities to be used expanding on its capabilities. For those, maybe Improved Tactics could become "your ally can now move when they are granted that out-of-turn action, and they can now use that actions to Dash or Disengage", while Master Tactics could become "your ally no longer needs to give up their reaction to use this out-of-turn action". Perfection of War is fine as-is, as long as your clarify that it can be used to cast spells without counting against the "one non-cantrip spell per turn" limit; incidentally, the base ability has this issue as well, since granting this attack to a rogue doesn't mean they just get another sneak attack, since they still only get one-per-turn, and this isn't clarified as breaking that rule. Tactical Genius seems like a good idea, but I'm not necessarily sure that all Tacticians would be stealthy; perhaps instead of Stealth proficiency, grant them an additional skill proficiency of their choice (maybe from a limited list).

Secondly, give this guy something to do with his bonus action; granting small bonuses/advantage to an ally, or small penalties/disadvantage to an enemy. This ties into my third suggestion...

...which is to give them a sub-system similar to a cross between the Battlemaster's Maneuvers and Bardic Inspiration. I'm not entirely sure how to go about doing this in a way that keeps everything balanced (except maybe keep the inspiration die small), but it could be an interesting thing to do with your bonus action.

[AvatarVecna]

I also wish to respond to your response to EnderDwarf.


How does it the enemies' reactions? It uses your allies' reactions. And, while it might be weaker at higher levels, it improves over time. It's actually pretty potent when you get it, since it can easily be a free Sneak Attack from a Rogue Ally. I definitely agree this isn't going to be very good in ALL parties, but it's designed as support. If your party can't use it properly, then you probably should've picked a different archetype.

Rogues gets SA once-per-turn, and no part of this class actually overrides that limit; this isn't granting an extra turn, just an extra action.


I'm AFB right now, but aren't all the level 7 Fighter features kinda weak? So that'd be appropriate. In addition, to me at least, it does fit, since in order to truly make the most of your tactics, stealth is an invaluable tool.

Eldritch Knight gets War Magic, which lets them cast a cantrip and attack in the same turn, allowing for the stupid "True Strike+Attack in the same turn" thing that everybody wishes True Strike allowed for. Battlemaster gains two maneuvers, an extra superiority die, and one of the greatest mechanical abilities a scout could wish for. The champion gets super-jumping and half-proficiency on all Str/Dex/Con checks he isn't already proficient in, which includes Initiative, Acrobatics, and Stealth. Even if you ignore everything else, Champion gets half of what Tactician gets at 7th lvl, but trades that second half-proficiency in Stealth for half-proficiency in Initiative, and has other goodies besides; even just half-proficiency in Stealth and Initiative is better to me than full proficiency in Stealth.


How are they unclear? I thought I worded them pretty plainly. And the 18th level feature specifically allows them to take actions other than Attacking, such as Dashing, Disengaging, or even casting a spell.

I think they're worded plainly, I just think that clarifying they bypass the "one non-cantrip/SA per turn" limits is important; as previously stated, I also think they should get some of these options earlier than 18th lvl.

...

Final piece of advice: responding to your responses is a bit difficult at times; by putting your words within the quote you're quoting, I can't quote your words myself because the forum doesn't allow anybody to quote quotes within quotes. It's not a huge deal, but it's worth mentioning.

[JNAProductions]

Thank you for the response. I understand it can be kind of hard to respond to responses, but that usually hasn't come up before.

And yes, Rogues get sneak attack once per turn-not per round. In the same way a Rogue can get sneak attack on an OA, they can get sneak attack on this reaction attack. Same thing with spellcasters. At least, that's how I read it. Has it been errata'd that that is not the case?

As for your main suggestions, that does actually sound like a better way to go about it. Unfortunately, I'm honestly just not interested in continuing this subclass to that extent, so while I agree it could be vastly improved, I will not be doing so personally.

[AvatarVecna]

Thank you for the response. I understand it can be kind of hard to respond to responses, but that usually hasn't come up before.

And yes, Rogues get sneak attack once per turn-not per round. In the same way a Rogue can get sneak attack on an OA, they can get sneak attack on this reaction attack. Same thing with spellcasters. At least, that's how I read it. Has it been errata'd that that is not the case?

As for your main suggestions, that does actually sound like a better way to go about it. Unfortunately, I'm honestly just not interested in continuing this subclass to that extent, so while I agree it could be vastly improved, I will not be doing so personally.

Yes, it says once per turn, but it depends on whether your reaction counts as part of your turn or not...and unless there's an official ruling one way or the other that clarifies, it's mostly up to the DM. Me personally, I'd rule that a reaction is part of your personal turn, and my IRL DMs rule similarly, but it's weird enough that different people have different interpretations. Applying this to spellcasters seems to work as well, even with War Caster (since that's a specific override).

I might remake this, if the urge takes me, as long as you're cool with that.

[JNAProductions]

Go right ahead.

[PoeticDwarf]

Thank you for your feedback, but I think you're underestimating how useful giving allies such as Rogues free attacks can be. That being said, if you could clarify where my words are confusing, I'll try to clean up the language a little.
That is true. I meant I though it was unclear because you said other than the attack ACTION (just an example)

I meant reactions of allies. Sorry

Even if the level 7 feature should be weak. Stealth still doesn't fit, stealth could fit in a way but you could also say "persuasion" because you can get allies to help or something

With rogues it is potent. The third level feature is balanced you are right, but on levels after 7 it adds way less and becomes weaker. Maybe a good nova option on level 7 instead of stealth

[SilverStud]

Just wanted to throw in my two-cents on the reaction/turn thing.
The way I see it, a turn is composed of your movement, action, bonus action, and fluff. I've never seen reactions used during one's own turn(except with a homebrew knife-throwing feat). Reactions are a way of lessening the strict turn-based structure, and lending a tiny bit more realism, by letting you act out-of-turn.
Technically your turn occurs on an initiative count. An invisible 'timer' counts down from 30, stopping whenever someone's turn comes up. After your turn, the initiative is no longer yours, and your turn is over. This is why they have a distinction between rounds and turns. A round is a complete countdown from 30 to 0.
So if rogues were only able to do sneak-attack once per round(remember the reaction refreshes each round), then giving rogues an extra move+attack wouldn't be great. However, the text says once per turn, which means once during 23, once during 22, once during 21, and so on. Assuming they could attack that many times.

[Amaranthine]

Eldritch Knight gets War Magic, which lets them cast a cantrip and attack in the same turn, allowing for the stupid "True Strike+Attack in the same turn" thing that everybody wishes True Strike allowed for.It actually doesn't.
True Strike only applies on your next turn, as per the spell description.

Restated for clarity: You can cast True Strike and make a single attack on the same turn, but the effects of True Strike won't actually apply until your next turn.