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Were-Sandwich
2007-05-28, 01:24 PM
I was watching Return of the King today, and the charge of the Mumakhil scene got me thinking: How do you go about HURTING sometihng that big? If you think about it, being able to hurt, nay kill, something that immense with a sword is completely ridiculous.

So, as a thought excercise: How would you go about hurting one of the following: A (collosal+) giant, a (fully grown) dragon, a mumakhil or a purple wurm.

You can only use medieval level tech, no magic etc. Try and use as few a people as possible.

I'm not looking for D&D builds, I'm looking for an explanation of how, if these things existed in real life, a standard human being could kill sometihng that big, within the real worlds physical laws. Aside form the existence of the beasties, everything is completely realistic.

Discuss.

P.S: please don't all reply with the 'If those exist, why can't X'. Its more a challenge this way.

My idea: I'm gonna take giant here, as it seems the easiest. The following seem reasonably likely to kill it:

Massed bow-fire, volley fire style
A big covered pit trap, with loads of spikes at the bottom, full of oil, with people on hand to set it on fire
Possibly siege engines, like Ballistae, Mangonel etc. If you could hit the thing with it, a trebuchet would probably have the desired effect

Captain van der Decken
2007-05-28, 01:32 PM
Attack the eyes, for all of them.
Dragon's wings are mainly membrane, right? Have a lot of archers shooting at their wings. That has to do something.

Pit traps would work for giants and mumakhil. I'm not sure about a purple worm though.

ufo
2007-05-28, 01:32 PM
Is a sword of atomic explosions +5 classified as magic? Meh.

Ballistaes would be my choice. If you have different height levels to work on, they will put them down in no time if you have enough.

Otherwise... meh.. no other ideas, really.

"... and he knew the name of the King."

EDIT: To clarify, mûmakhil (or however it's spelt).

martyboy74
2007-05-28, 01:40 PM
A medium longsword is about 3 feet long. A medium creature's height ranges from 4 to 8 feet tall. A collosal creature is taller/longer than or equal to 64'. Using proportions, you can discover that a longsword in proportionally 2 1/4 inches long. That's about the length of your index finger. Do you doubt that someone could kill you with a suffiently sharp object the length of your finger? I sure as hell don't.

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-28, 01:42 PM
If you felt suicidal, you could probably take out a Giant with a sword.

Get the biggest sword you can swing. You don't need accuracy or poise, just be able to chop with it.

1) Hide yourself in a covered fox-hole
2) Get someone else to lure the Giant past you
3) As it is going past you, pop out of your fox-hole
4) Quickly as you can, wield your cloud-sword and do a lumberjack, tree-felling chop at its hamstring.
5) Wait for it to fall, then get the other leg
6) Run up its back, after getting its arms, and smash its skull out
7) ???
8) Profit!!

Of course, this plan requires you to be insanely lucky, and to be able to dodge its attacks as you move in for the finisher.

I tihnk Giants are the easiest of the four to kill, being humanoid. You just take normal man-to-man tactics, and scale them up big-time.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-28, 01:45 PM
Trip the giant Gulliver style. Lots and lots of vines/hemp/whatever woven into the world's largest, heaviest rope, get it around/between his legs somehow, and make him move.

Giant impaling metal spike about the size of a man should be sufficient to kill any of them(I don't know about the mumahkyl, but a Purple Worm is just a giant tube of flesh with a stinger.)

Purple Worm can be killed if you can somehow make it swallow you without first stinging. Once you're swallowed, go to work on the insides. Especially good if you've got Spike Armour(or the Razor Armour, or whatever works to automatically cut things that swallow you.).

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-28, 01:51 PM
Well, I suppose that would work, but what are the odds of surviving?

PirateMonk
2007-05-28, 01:51 PM
A medium longsword is about 3 feet long. A medium creature's height ranges from 4 to 8 feet tall. A collosal creature is taller/longer than or equal to 64'. Using proportions, you can discover that a longsword in proportionally 2 1/4 inches long. That's about the length of your index finger. Do you doubt that someone could kill you with a suffiently sharp object the length of your finger? I sure as hell don't.

...But this person is five inches tall. If you can stay on your feet long enough to run (or they stay still enough to stomp), you have a good chance of surviving. Quite a big if, though...

martyboy74
2007-05-28, 01:55 PM
...But this person is five inches tall. If you can stay on your feet long enough to run (or they stay still enough to stomp), you have a good chance of surviving. Quite a big if, though...

Yep. That puts their swing height right around you achilles tendon. Sucks to be you, Mr. Achilles 'OHMYGODICAN'TWLAKITHURTSDAMNDAMN!' Tendonless Giant.

13_CBS
2007-05-28, 01:57 PM
You realize that a blade the length of your index finger is long enough to take out your Achille's tendon? Granted, against something like a gian it'd take some effort, but don't estimate the hurting power of small, pointed objects.

Alternatively, aiming for jugulars, if there are any, could be a way of doing things, especially when one has siege equipment.

Iron_Mouse
2007-05-28, 02:59 PM
Well, those things are heavy. Luring them on something that doesn't support weight could work. Frozen lakes, swamps, etc..

Or simply take your best archer and give him some arrows treated with a strong poison. Put him into a hidden position or just on a fast horse. Problem solved.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-05-28, 02:59 PM
Grab the thing by the scuff of its collar, and stab it rapidly in the back of its neck!

C'mon people, you need to read more Conan!

High-Chancellor
2007-05-28, 03:10 PM
Holy cow you people have stubby index fingers. Even my PINKY is longer than 2 and 1/4 in.

I doubt someone that small with a weapon that small would have the strength to go for anywhere but the jugular without the most pristine ideal circumstances, and the achilles tendon would be right out unless they can hack at it for a while with an axe, which doesn't do you much good. Even going for the jugular would be hard to do without some pretty good circumstances.

I know if some little 5" tall guy was trying to kill me it would sure take a lot of them, it's just about mouse/gerbil/hamster size... those things are pretty fragile.

Fourth Tempter
2007-05-28, 03:13 PM
Those things are also not dripping with magic items, which adventurers tend to be.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-28, 03:27 PM
With a big sword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11077&highlight=sword+sense).

To plug my own work a little, I worked out that in a fantasy world where huge things existed then people would develope weapons to fight them, just as armour shapes the weapons people use in the real world.

Person_Man
2007-05-28, 03:43 PM
You can kill a whale the size of a football field just by hitting it with a single harpoon and letting it bleed for a minute or two. All mammals are inherently fragile, and die if we lose more then 30% of our blood, sometimes less (though admittedly, sometimes more, if you can get to an emergency room quickly enough).

So even if a dragon is 100 feet long or larger, it should be pretty simple to kill (from a non-D&D point of view). As Predator taught us, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

the_tick_rules
2007-05-28, 03:47 PM
if you have time lay terrain traps like pits, spikes and the like. The elephants are so big that if they hurt their legs it's over for them.

Munchy
2007-05-28, 03:53 PM
I doubt the bow fire would accomplish anything beyond blinding it, though pits, ballistas and trebuchets would probably work and kill it fairly fast.

Depending on how much time you consider acceptable, there are other approaches for killing such a creature. Not all of these are suitable for battle. Some would ensure that the creature doesn't make it to a subsequent battle, or would just serve to rid the countryside of a dangerous nuisance.

1. Take out the eyes and wait. The creature may have sufficient difficulty finding food and water that it might starve or die of thirst. It may damage itself while stumbling around trying to find food and water (E.g. if it falls off a cliff). Given that large creatures need large amounts of food and water I believe that blindness alone would prove fatal in the long run.

2. Harrass the blinded creature. Once blinded try to expedite its death by placing pit traps in its path, by "guiding it" towards cliffs or other dangerous terrain, and by harrasing it with spears and noise. If you harrass it the creature will spend more energy that it would on its own and will die of starvation/thirst far sooner. Furthermore, its immune system will become weak and the creature will be more susceptible to poison and disease.

3. Use spears/ballistas with barbs that point backwards, and shafts that break easily. Once the tip is in the shaft will break off and the tip will slowly work its way in (Causing more damage) as the creature moves. This will also make attempts to treat the wound much, much more difficult.

4. Make sure spears/ballistas have hollow areas that can be filled with poison or biological material. Things that cause necrosis or septicemia would probably be best (Something like komodo dragon saliva would be ideal, though feces or rotting flesh would probably work). By combining 3 and 4 is it possible to inflict a festering wound that anything short of modern medicine or magic would have a realy hard time curing. If done properly a single wound will end up causing septicemia and killing the creature.

5. Deny it water. Large creatures need large amounts of water and regularly. Poison all water sources in the vecinity. (Obviously, this works best in an arid setting with few water sources).

6. Use fire. Should the creature ever enter a forest or grassland consider setting a fire at several locations to trap it in the middle. If you get lucky the critter will get caught by the fire and die from the fire, from smoke inhalation, or from damage to the lungs (From the super heated air).

7. Hit at the points with little armor. If the creature resembles (Or is) a mammal, odds are that the genitalia are not armored. If the target creature is a male, a few well positioned slashes may suceed at inflicting a wound that will cause it to bleed to death. The back of the knees and the area above the heel should not have much armor (As they must bend). A good slashing or spear attack might be enough to damage the tendons/joint and render that leg inoperable.

kemmotar
2007-05-28, 04:01 PM
First idea is, as person_man said, letting it bleed its guts out...the problem would be to survive for all this time...what you can also do, which is kinda smarter is lure it away, load its baby on a catapult aiming over a cliff to the endless void...tell him to sit down quietly and tie him up. Not just hands and feet, everything!Gulliver style...but make sure he can't get up...then start chopping. First achiles tendon, then the wrists. Allow it to bleed dead...Then you can *tame* the baby giant and it can help you kill other similar threats when it grows up...

Also catapults throwing burning containers of oil was the medieval napalm! So...lure it somewhere it can't move that freely, fire at will...

Indeed never underestimate the power of small weapons...damage will add up no matter how small. One defensive tactic is make really large metal spikes (assuming he is large enough to crush under his foot) and make them into a grid, cover with underbrush so he can't see the spikes. Lure it near the trap, when it tries to step on you or walk over you or past you it will step on the spikes...Do not underestimate damage to you feet. He will probably fall down from the shock reaction of the damage...then you can shoot with catapults and rain fiery arrows on him. One arrow may not do much, a thousand arrows will do alot! Especially with fire...some of them are liable to hit something important...

Ehm...something quite violent follows, if offended don't read it:smallbiggrin:

One more, rather violent, alternative is subdue it somehow and then shoot a ballista up its nose into the brain or through the eyes, these areas have easy or squishy access to the brain...Immediate damage to those areas is bound to either kill outright or cause internal bleeding and nerve damage to the brain ->comma-> bleed to death...I'm no doctor but logic says if its humanoid cut off its head...

Lycanthromancer
2007-05-28, 04:05 PM
A group of archers with even vague accuracy should be able to take it down if they hit the thing's eyes a few times (or even once). Even a half-way decently-sized splinter could cause a man to go permanently blind, and then it's only a matter of time, really.

A single archer with good aim should be able to take it out with a couple of shots. Of course, then it's just a matter of a heavy axe and the ability to get close to its tendons.

But then, large animals have to sleep sometime, so just wait until then and slit its throat, poison its food, etc.

Then again, certain portions of the world had access to quite advanced chemistry, which means you could catapult a tub of chlorine onto it (acid resistance, anyone?).

Jonesh
2007-05-28, 04:32 PM
Skimming through this thread I'm surprised nobody has suggested javelins(? I might've missed it). Well, it should work against elephantlike monsters and such I guess.

At least it worked for the Romans and stuff IIRC.
And it sure as hell works in Rome: Total Realism :P

But also, just scaring the monsters would do a lot of good, you can herd them in to traps that way.

Anything else that I'd like to say has already been said :smallredface:

goat
2007-05-28, 04:38 PM
Sufficiently large amounts of fire kills most things.

de-trick
2007-05-28, 04:59 PM
in melee this is why longspears, 20ft spears were made think of how people fought elephants and mammoths back in the day


also a fearless people could try to climb any of the creatures and attack its neck once it gets close


lots of ranged attacks

OzymandiasVolt
2007-05-28, 05:05 PM
Sufficiently large amounts of fire kills most things.

Quoted for truth and awesome.

Beleriphon
2007-05-28, 05:10 PM
The dragon itself presents several interesting obstacles. Namely it can fly, second its really damn hard to hurt (I assume that D&D dragon with some level of DR representing a difficult to penetrate hide is being used), and thirdly the scare the living crap out of most people just by being there.

If were to take the scenario that a dragon is attacking a castle (because that's what dragons do) then your best bet is to use some kind of ballista and harpoon system forcing the thing to stay near the castle. Then use sufficiently large amounts of poison to subdue the beastie.

The purple worm is funky though. If you manage to trap it in a pit, then if burrows away and even a ground based on creature doesn't help you if you could fly or get above it since it will just burrow away and you can't hurt it. The only thing that I can possibly suggest would be a mine and sufficiently large quantities of black powder kegs.

Toliudar
2007-05-28, 06:47 PM
For the purple worm - lots of fire. Fire that sticks (Napalm/Alchemist's fire) would be best, so that even as it burrows away, you've got a shot.

For the rest - waiting until they're asleep will help tremendously. Even the dragon can be tracked to a reasonable proximity before it becomes aware of, well, just about everything.

Fishy
2007-05-28, 10:38 PM
In Indonesia, Elephant Warfare was a fact of combat as recently as a century or two ago. Accordingly, the Palace Armoury is filled with gifts from other countries (katanas, lugers, smith+Wessons,) and weapons for wielding from elephants and against elephants. Because if you can't deal with the damn elephant, nothing else you do will matter.

The weapon of choice is not complicated at all- basically any sort of spear will do. There were spears, tridents, axes-on-poles, spiked-maces-on-poles, and essentailly every combination of 'pointy bit of metal and long bit of wood' you could think of.

Basically- have your guys poke it in the face, legs and belly as much as they can. Superficial wounds, sure, but it'll still hurt, and you will eventually spook the animal or cause it to pass out from bloodloss. You're going to lose a few footsoldiers, but... that's what they're for.

Nothing special at all to this one.

technomancer
2007-05-28, 10:46 PM
I don't know how true this is, but I heard that in the time of Hannibal and the Romans, there was a suicide position in the army that basically runs under the elephant, slices it's soft underbelly all to shreds with a really sharp knife, and dies when the elephant collapses on him.

That won't work for a giant or a purple worm, but it should work for 4-legged beasties.

Alleine
2007-05-28, 10:50 PM
Well, in Return of the king you can see that the mumakil were't too big. They rode between the legs of one, slashed at all four legs with two shortswords. So I imagine that if you distracted it long enough for several people on horseback to ride up and slice great gaping holes in the legs, it would probably fall over.

Alternately, get someone talented enough to stand on a horse, ride under it from behind, and slice the hell out of its stomach.

I see seige weapons as none too viable, against any of the said creatures, well, unless they're too stupid to move. Siege stuff is mad to hit certain areas, generally, so you fire your catapult at the dragon, and it flies to the left where your weapon isn't targeted. Sucks to be you. I don't think the mumakil are that intelligent though.

Gavin Sage
2007-05-28, 10:51 PM
Take a sowing needle, jab it deep into your foot then try to run on said foot. Or take a razor and cut your achilles tendon and try to walk. Principle would be the same for any creature over medium size. Injure to reduce it movement and effectiveness then let it bleed out.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-05-29, 04:39 AM
I don't know how true this is, but I heard that in the time of Hannibal and the Romans, there was a suicide position in the army that basically runs under the elephant, slices it's soft underbelly all to shreds with a really sharp knife, and dies when the elephant collapses on him.

That won't work for a giant or a purple worm, but it should work for 4-legged beasties.

Not true. However, Alexander the Great equipped his Shieldbearers (elite commandos) with scimitars to cut off elephants' trunks. The pain would make the elephant go berserk and attack its own side.

As for most large creatures, harpoons would work. They could be used to tear holes in a dragon's wings, or (when attached to a sufficiently strong rope and sufficiently large windlass) be used to tip over a larger creature. Once it's immobile, which can be accomplished Gulliver-style, the actual job of killing it is easy for most things with an anatomy. Purple worms might be trickier, but you could probably set fire to them...

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-29, 05:06 AM
*scribles notes*

Lots...of...fire. Got it.

martyboy74
2007-05-29, 06:53 AM
Take a sowing needle, jab it deep into your foot then try to run on said foot. Or take a razor and cut your achilles tendon and try to walk. Principle would be the same for any creature over medium size. Injure to reduce it movement and effectiveness then let it bleed out.

Is this before or after you call 911?

Gamgee
2007-05-29, 07:32 AM
Anyone here who has played the game monster hunter for any ammount of time knows how to handle this with no magic.

For the dragon assemble a crack team of hunter, two that weild lances the third should have a massive hammer and the fourth a bowgun. Wait for the dragon to attack in melee block fireballs with sheilds, the hammer suer has to dodge around alot. While it flies around the bowgunner should be shooting as much shells at it as possible.

When it lands have a pit trap awaiting it, soon as it lands the dragon falls in. Then commence stabing its wings... anywhere really. The hammer user can smash, thats that dragon gone.

For the massive elephant.... give it lots of peanuts and when its full and sleeping stab it.....

TranquilRage
2007-05-30, 09:13 AM
For the giant and the uppity elephant id suggest ballistas with barrbed bolts and the tips covered in feces (especially horses, tetanus FTW).

The Dragon I would tend to do the same to, although finding a poison, disease or bacteria that affected it might take some time/burnt villages. The other alternative would be smaller ballista bolts with a weight in the rear end, so the effect of them waggling about while flying was increased (moments of force). Or with ribbons attached to increase the drag while it flies. Even arrows with ribbons or weights would have a huge effect with enough volume. When you reduce its mobility right down, bust out the heavy ballista again and shoot it in the face with the biggest weapon you have. That works a treat.

The Worm I would either try and lure to a lake, and let drown (you cant tunnel if you cant push) or logs filled with gunpower and let the hydrostatic shock kill it. Or a cliff, a cliff could screw it *right* up. Or the previously mentioned hollowed logs filled with gunpower, buried into the ground. you have a lure pass between them and light the fuses and as it chases between they go off and the shockwave would probably crush it or part of it.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-30, 09:25 AM
Incendiary pigs? (though I never worked out why)

Greek fire would probably have a nasty effect. You might, however, just get the same problem that it encountered when nuking Cthulu - what happens when you fire medieval Byzantine napalm at an angry lump of 300 tons of flesh?

An angry lump of 300 tons of flesh that's on fire.

ChomZ
2007-05-30, 10:11 AM
all you need is significatly potent poison, then shoot them in the eye with hollowed out (for more carrying capacity) arrows.. multiple times

eventually you'll build up enough poison in their system to knock them out, then its easy.. and while their still conscious, they can't see

hurray

Dausuul
2007-05-30, 10:32 AM
I was watching Return of the King today, and the charge of the Mumakhil scene got me thinking: How do you go about HURTING sometihng that big? If you think about it, being able to hurt, nay kill, something that immense with a sword is completely ridiculous.

So, as a thought excercise: How would you go about hurting one of the following: A (collosal+) giant, a (fully grown) dragon, a mumakhil or a purple wurm.

You can only use medieval level tech, no magic etc. Try and use as few a people as possible.

I'm not looking for D&D builds, I'm looking for an explanation of how, if these things existed in real life, a standard human being could kill sometihng that big, within the real worlds physical laws. Aside form the existence of the beasties, everything is completely realistic.

Discuss.

P.S: please don't all reply with the 'If those exist, why can't X'. Its more a challenge this way.

My idea: I'm gonna take giant here, as it seems the easiest. The following seem reasonably likely to kill it:

Massed bow-fire, volley fire style
A big covered pit trap, with loads of spikes at the bottom, full of oil, with people on hand to set it on fire
Possibly siege engines, like Ballistae, Mangonel etc. If you could hit the thing with it, a trebuchet would probably have the desired effect


Killing Colossal foes with a sword is not as far-fetched as you might think.

Let's say a greatsword is ~6 feet, a longsword is ~3 feet, a shortsword is ~1.5 feet, a dagger is ~9 inches, and a knife is ~4.5 inches; all of these are, I think, fairly reasonable estimates.

In that case, a 6-foot greatsword is to a Colossal creature as a 4.5-inch knife is to a Medium creature. Can you kill somebody with a 4.5-inch knife? Sure. You won't decapitate him, but you can still slit his throat or stab him in the lung.

Even a longsword might be able to do the job. It's equivalent to a 2-inch razor blade. Slitting a throat is tricky but doable with that. If you can't manage the throat, stab repeatedly in sensitive spots until your opponent is crippled from pain and blood loss.

When you get down to shortswords, that's when it starts being implausible that you could even hurt such a beast. Likewise, bludgeoning weapons won't accomplish much; a two-handed maul isn't much more than a set of brass knuckles to Colossal creatures.

Of course, the ideal weapon is a 12-foot longspear.

F.L.
2007-05-30, 04:04 PM
If it walks, giant sized tank traps/caltrops? Just rivet some spears together into a ball, and take out the pads of the feet. There are even some poisons which can kill things well out of proportion to size out there, assuming giants have a human-like chemistry (which they probably don't, of course). Otherwise, you'd have to go with harpoons fired out of an atl-atl, and a lot of them, in addition to seige machinery. Goliath was taken down with a single slingstone, so scale wise, a trebuchet may suffice.

kellandros
2007-05-31, 01:14 AM
If you can get it prone(see Achilles tendon treatment above) how about a nice battering ram? Twenty people charging, with a steel head on the thing should work wonders for cracking bones. Aim for the back of the skull.

And probably want to replace your swords with two handed axes- easier to bite through thick skin and tendon.

jaqueses
2007-05-31, 02:03 AM
Pick a spot where they would have trouble maneuvering. A city, jungle,forest, or boatyard. Then trick/force it into following you in there. Trip the giant and drop boulders on top of them before/while getting up. Try netting or hooking a dragon's wings or feet to send it tumbling, hopefully into the ground. Failing that shot its wings off, with arrows, rocks, shot from any form of siege weaponry. The purple worm though is tricky. It burrows meaning either kill it from the inside out and hope it is aboveground, or close enough to dig out, when it dies or find a way crush it.

Seffbasilisk
2007-05-31, 12:26 PM
Pit traps, giant caltrops, napalm (long-burning alchemist's fire?), greek fire, flaming oil, poisons...

Best bet for direct confrontation I'd say, would be pikemen or men with longspears, with squire's shieldbearing large towershields to cover themselves and thier spear-mate's.

Giant Ballistae take most things down, well aimed trebuchets...

If having to use hand-held weaponry, I'd use the longspear/shieldbearer combination above, and hidden around would be men with greataxes and mauls, when the giant moved in, the axes chop at the back of the knee and the ankle, and the hammers crush at the front of the knee and the toes.

When it's off-balance, spearmen charge. Knock it down. Once it's down, hamstring it, cut all the tendons you can find.

Archers work for helping to keep it off-balance and blinded.

Ballistae with cords attached to drag it down could work.

bosssmiley
2007-05-31, 03:22 PM
In answer to the OP's question, and taking into account many of the sage suggestions offered above, I humbly contribute this seemingly overlooked way to bring down something 100x your size:

"Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!" :smallwink:

goat
2007-05-31, 04:16 PM
Fire is the traditional method, it's how they think Aboriginies took out most of the mega-fauna in Australia without much in the way of large hunting kit.

But, that implies a stupid foe. A dragon isnae stupid, a dragon moves in three dimensions.

One option would be to starve them out, wreck the food chain, make them come to a heavily defended position to get something to eat. Then you can either use siege weaponry (ballistae probably being the only thing accurate enough) or standard attrition tactics to wear it down until it drops.

The main problem there is that wrecking their food chain will probably also wreck yours.

You could try a frontal assault. If you were well enough equipped and prepared to suck up the heavy losses, a direct attack on its lair, driving it back inside so you can seal up the entrance could work. But it'll probably cost the lives of your best and bravest.

Your best bet would be to hobble it somehow. Attack until you inflict damage to the wings that stop it flying. Then withdraw, regroup and attack it on the ground, inflict more light wounds and then withdraw again. Keep attacking repeatedly and relentlessly, never getting in too close that it can cause serious losses. Eventually it'll die.

Problem: If the thing heals quickly, or has massive damage resistance, you'll fail.

Really, it's hard to come up with tactics without knowing specifics.

Wraithy
2007-05-31, 05:12 PM
harpoons, lots of them.

Hotpies
2007-05-31, 05:14 PM
Well, with giants and giant animals the thing you have to remember is that they will have the same basic building blocks as small animals. Cells. Their blood platelets won't be the size of dimes, they'll be microscopic. They won't be able to naturally clot and seal any wounds that a normally sized creature wouldn't. That means that while a great sword wound might have the same comparative size as a nick from a pocketknife, it's still going to bleed like the wound from a sword.

I have veins on my foot as large as twigs. On a giant they're going to be about the size of a fire hose. Open those suckers up, and watch the gallons of blood poor out. Then it's just a matter of waiting. Also, a creature that large is going to need arteries to carry the blood throughout it's body. It's going to be loaded with blood vessels as thick as pencils that will spray blood everywhere once severed.

As far as hollow arrows full of poison go, use just plain hollow arrows and make sure there's a hole the entire way through. You have now implanted a hose into that animal that's going to constantly poor blood and be hard to seal up since the arrow itself will probably be fairly fragile and resist efforts to extract it. Do the same with javelins and spears.

A long term strategy against an army of such creatures would be to enact a scorched earth policy. Height might be a linear property, but volume is cubic. Proportionally a giant is going to have a much higher volume to height ratio than a human, meaning it is going to have more mass and need to eat a larger proportion. Burn the fields and slaughter the livestock while you retreat. The giants will starve quickly.

Stormzen
2007-05-31, 09:17 PM
Gather an army, and throw lots of spears at it, with said spears on fire. It should hit enough times in sensitive spots to have it bleed.

On second thought, make the spear's tips barbed. That will hurt even more if they try to pull it out.

Also, have a couple soldiers stab it in the brain. If I remember correctly, elephant drivers had a stake for driving through the elephant's brain if it went berserk.

Shoyliguad
2007-05-31, 09:33 PM
use the chemical a misquito uses on your arrows so the wounds don't stop bleeding. then fire off a volly of oh say 100 arrows from a secure position and you have a dead *fill in the blank*.

Godhand
2007-05-31, 10:35 PM
Also, have a couple soldiers stab it in the brain. If I remember correctly, elephant drivers had a stake for driving through the elephant's brain if it went berserk.

Indeed they did. Elephants were useful, but many times they did more damage to their own side rather than to their foes. Unfortunatly for the drivers, killing the elephants was usually suicidal due to the animal's death throes/momentum/landing underneath other elephants.

As I read this, the dragon and other aboveground creatues are dealt with via hitting weak spots and blood loss, but the purple worm is still a formidable threat with different stratagies. Pikemen and boiling oil seem like effective tactics, but if the worm attacks from below the surface, it can avoid ranged weapons and most siege type weapons as well.

Poppatomus
2007-05-31, 11:10 PM
Killing Colossal foes with a sword is not as far-fetched as you might think.

Let's say a greatsword is ~6 feet, a longsword is ~3 feet, a shortsword is ~1.5 feet, a dagger is ~9 inches, and a knife is ~4.5 inches; all of these are, I think, fairly reasonable estimates.

In that case, a 6-foot greatsword is to a Colossal creature as a 4.5-inch knife is to a Medium creature. Can you kill somebody with a 4.5-inch knife? Sure. You won't decapitate him, but you can still slit his throat or stab him in the lung.

Even a longsword might be able to do the job. It's equivalent to a 2-inch razor blade. Slitting a throat is tricky but doable with that. If you can't manage the throat, stab repeatedly in sensitive spots until your opponent is crippled from pain and blood loss.

When you get down to shortswords, that's when it starts being implausible that you could even hurt such a beast. Likewise, bludgeoning weapons won't accomplish much; a two-handed maul isn't much more than a set of brass knuckles to Colossal creatures.

Of course, the ideal weapon is a 12-foot longspear.


The problem with this analysis is that it makes assumptions about the wielder. a 2 inch razor blade can kill you in the hands of an adult, and wound you in the hands of a toddler, but imagine it in the hands of, say, a mouse. sure, it might be able to wield it, move it around, but it would have to get damn lucky to hit an artery. If these creatures are scaled up in strength and toughness as much as size than it's not just the size of the weapon that matters, its the size of the wielder.

Ballistas, and very, very tough to shoot heavy bows might be enough to work, but without some kind of mechanical multiplier the human arm or foot is going to be in trouble.

Excepting the ever popular giant fire or the availability of gallons upon gallons of poison, I see two options:

1.) Use their own weight against them. Covered here with weapons like caltrops, or trapped pits, etc.... If a giant falls in the forest does it impale itself on dozens of trees? yes.

2.) swarm. This would be tough or impossible with a flying opponent, especially one that might have access to magical healing, but would work on a ground bound opponent. Think army ants, not just 50 guys with swords hacking at his ankles, but hundreds, climbing and ever hacking. I'd equip everyone with spiked gauntlets, ice climbing boots, and have them climb, scraching, gouging, and digging as they go. you'd take a lot of casualties, but if you had enough guys it would do the trick.

Poppatomus
2007-05-31, 11:13 PM
Indeed they did. Elephants were useful, but many times they did more damage to their own side rather than to their foes. Unfortunatly for the drivers, killing the elephants was usually suicidal due to the animal's death throes/momentum/landing underneath other elephants.

As I read this, the dragon and other aboveground creatues are dealt with via hitting weak spots and blood loss, but the purple worm is still a formidable threat with different stratagies. Pikemen and boiling oil seem like effective tactics, but if the worm attacks from below the surface, it can avoid ranged weapons and most siege type weapons as well.

two words: suicide appetizers.

Hotpies
2007-06-01, 12:03 AM
I think poison gas could mess the worm up pretty well. Something that big has to have lungs, otherwise it could never take in enough oxygen to live. A little cloud of poison gas should slow it down well.

Once that thing pops out of the ground it might get one or two men, but it could easily be swarmed by soldiers with spears while only the first ten feet or so are out. It's stinger would still be in the ground and couldn't come into play. That would also reduce it's mobility by quite a bit making it less formidable. Surround and stab, stab, stab.

Matthew
2007-06-06, 09:24 PM
Vegetius, Book III:


ARMED CHARIOTS AND ELEPHANTS

The armed chariots used in war by Antiochus and Mithridates at first terrified the Romans, but they afterwards made a jest of them. As a chariot of this sort does not always meet with plain and level ground, the least obstruction stops it. And if one of the horses be either killed or wounded, it falls into the enemy's hands. The Roman soldiers rendered them useless chiefly by the following contrivance: at the instant the engagement began, they strewed the field of battle with caltrops, and the horses that drew the chariots, running full speed on them, were infallibly destroyed. A caltrop is a machine composed of four spikes or points arranged so that in whatever manner it is thrown on the ground, it rests on three and presents the fourth upright.

Elephants by their vast size, horrible noise and the novelty of their form are at first very terrible both to men and horses. Pyrrhus first used them against the Romans in Lucania. And afterwards Hannibal brought them into the field in Africa. Antiochus in the east and Jugurtha in Numidia had great numbers. Many expedients have been used against them. In Lucania a centurion cut off the trunk of one with his sword. Two soldiers armed from head to foot in a chariot drawn by two horses, also covered with armor, attacked these beasts with lances of great length. They were secured by their armor from the archers on the elephants and avoided the fury of the animals by the swiftness of their horses. F oot soldiers completely armored, with the addition of long iron spikes fixed on their arms, shoulders and helmets, to prevent the elephant from seizing them with his trunk, were also employed against them.

But among the ancients, the velites usually engaged them. They were young soldiers, lightly armed, active and very expert in throwing their missile weapons on horseback. These troops kept hovering round the elephants continually and killed them with large lances and javelins. Afterwards, the soldiers, as their apprehensions decreased, attacked them in a body and, throwing their javelins together, destroyed them by the multitude of wounds. Slingers with round stones from the fustibalus and sling killed both the men who guided the elephants and the soldiers who fought in the towers on their backs. This was found by experience to be the best and safest expedient. At other times on the approach of these beasts, the soldiers opened their ranks and let them pass through. When they got into the midst of the troops, who surrounded them on all sides, they were captured with their guards unhurt.

Large balistae, drawn on carriages by two horses or mules, should be placed in the rear of the line, so that when the elephants come within reach they may be transfixed with the darts. The balistae should be larger and the heads of the darts stronger and broader than usual, so that the darts may be thrown farther, with greater force and the wounds be proportioned to the bodies of the beasts. It was proper to describe these several methods and contrivances employed against elephants, so that it may be known on occasion in what manner to oppose those prodigious animals.

...he may or may not have known what he was talking about.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-06, 09:40 PM
Hire soldiers trained in using the horse-slayer, German zweinhander, or those ceremonial 9 foot blades. The ability to maneuver your weapon isn't nearly as important as inflicting wounds at this point, since your opponent is too big to counterattack you anyway. Trebuchets will pin everything but the dragon down (dragon's too fast to get a good shot off with a trebuchet barrage), with ballista prepared for both the dragon incident to prevent it from flying and to bring down the most damaging aspects of the other creatures or outright kill them by hitting the squishier parts. A contingent of archers will aim at the eyes to keep them blinded, though the arrows will end up being mostly worthless doing anything else. This is assuming that the fight will occur in terrain which I do not have time to set up traps. Otherwise, simple extra large spike pits could make this very easy.

There's still a large measure of luck included here in the dragon fight. The ballista could certainly all miss a living, flying target like that, and it's breath weapon could eliminate entire legions. In order to kill it, the ballista must strike true and the infantry must do sufficient damage within moments of it crashing down so that the trebuchets can crush it while it remains immobile. There's certain to be massive casualties even then.

Pronounceable
2007-06-07, 07:07 AM
I once read a book about ants. It was semi scientific. A bird attacked an anthill to eat, the ants retaliated. Thousands of ants attacked the bird while it was busy eating hundreds of others. They climbed all over the bird and kept hacking. When the bird started to feel the sting of the ants, there were already hundreds of ants crawling all over it. Hundreds of ants hacked at its body. Some ants survived being swallowed en masse, and hacked the bird from the inside. Ants managed to reach and pluck its eyes and in they went. Some other ants "entered" the bird through its ass and hacked their way to vital organs. Sometime later the "infiltrators" reached the heart and brain.
Result: The bird was killed, ripped to shreds and carried to the ants' larder. Thousands of ants also died.
Of course, that happened because the stupid bird didn't fly away before it was swarmed.


This could be how some thousands of humans can kill a collosal dragon that's too arrogant to think puny humans can pose a threat to it. A smart dragon who knows when to fly up and burn the said puny humans to crisp can't possibly be killed without any high end technological stuff or magic.

No one said killing dragons was easy or pretty.

weenie
2007-06-07, 07:56 AM
Poison. If we're not using d&d rules that would be te single easiest answer in my opinion. A nice ballista projectile heavily soaked in the poison of the nastiest snake you can find around.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-07, 08:02 AM
Everyone has plans to kill the giant.. But. What about the worm? Or the dragon? The first has hundreds of redundant systems, and no real weak point on it. The second has so much natural armor that a sword of any length is ultimately irrelevant.

Besides that, as Cnsvnc mentioned, a dragon can just fly away and breath fire at you. Even if you had thousands of archers they become completely useless when the dragon just blows out a cone of fire and incinerates their arrows in mid-flight.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-07, 08:03 AM
The ants actually had a few significant advantages against that bird that humans don't possess. The most major being that they can stick to the bird and climb it, while humans can't do that to a dragon. Also, at that size, the ants are surprisingly strong. Humans, against a dragon, are... well, I guess not "surprisingly" weak, but you get the picture. Further, the ants are controlled by a hive mind and thus those soldiers fought to the death without fear. Humans are highly likely to run the moment they see the size of the dragon.

OverdrivePrime
2007-06-07, 08:14 AM
Two words: Tony Jaa.






Seriously, when it comes to giants, oliphants and purple worms, I stick with my trusty zweihander and mighty composite longbow. But for dragons? Game over, man! Game over.

Any dragon larger than huge is gonna be able to jack me up and take my shoes without even thinking about it. For younger ones I could get lucky and sever the neck or cut through a wing joint / important vein, but any of the old ones would just laugh, and then reduce me to paste. For an older dragon, a small kingdom would have to expend considerable resources and trickery to defeat it. Perhaps lure it into a castle or large structure with the promise of gold or teenagers slathered in teriyaki sauce. Rig the structure to explode and hope the dragon doesn't recognize the smell of gunpowder.

If you're lucky, you just might be able to KO the dragon long enough for a team of brave soldiers to finish it off with logging saws or trebuchets.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-07, 08:20 AM
The saws makes a good point- hacking quickly is pretty much your only melee option against a dragon, but why use swords? Those legs are about as thick as tree trunks, so treat them like tree trunks. If you rush thousands of troops in armed with two-man saws, at least a few of them are going to cause some pretty substantial damage to it's feet. So long as you can then keep it out of the sky (ballistas and archers, keep that thing down!), you've just toppled the sucker. Now there's plenty of places you can saw it that would actually prove lethal.

Jayabalard
2007-06-07, 08:23 AM
A medium longsword is about 3 feet long. A medium creature's height ranges from 4 to 8 feet tall. A collosal creature is taller/longer than or equal to 64'. Using proportions, you can discover that a longsword in proportionally 2 1/4 inches long. That's about the length of your index finger. Do you doubt that someone could kill you with a suffiently sharp object the length of your finger? I sure as hell don't.The problem is actually getting to the point where they could do that.

keep in mind that it would be a (propritionally) 2 1/4 inch long spike, about like a finishing nail, and they only come up to your ankle... it would hurt for sure, but unless they use poison/disease, or can get you to fall, or catch you sleeping, they're not going to kill you

Wolf_Shade
2007-06-07, 08:28 AM
For a dragon: choke it. Dragons, as I understand them, have the classic problem of a mouth with greater capicity than their throat. Exploit that.

For a giant: I'm with the people saying simply attack key points in the body. As for requiring strength, with a properly sharp sword, you don't need to be strong, just precise. I don't know about D&D, but in classic mythology giants aren't exactly known for their speed. (Not overland travel speed, attack speed etc.)

Purple worm: (Not familiar with the creature outside of this thread.) Get swallowed, cut a path out the side. If you're awake when you're swallowed, and can keep your wits about you, I can see it being effective. Potential issues are oxygen supply and the rate of digestion. I'd find the former more concerning than the latter.

Giant Elephant (I'm assuming that's what the last creature was): Drop it. Convince it it wants to run off a cliff (or that there is no cliff, your choice.) Else knee-cap it with a catapult. Although that's very difficult with a moving angry target.

weenie
2007-06-07, 08:28 AM
Everyone has plans to kill the giant.. But. What about the worm? Or the dragon? The first has hundreds of redundant systems, and no real weak point on it. The second has so much natural armor that a sword of any length is ultimately irrelevant.

Hmmm, i think that dragons could be taken down by damaging their wings. As someone already mentioned. But archers don't seem the best choice to accomplish this, I'd rather suggest a catapult that fires a lot of small sharp objects at once. The damage from the fall would do it's part, but it may be neccesary to finish the dragon on the ground. This is a tricky task because of its fiery breath and land speed. Horse archers are an appealing idea. Fast enough to escape if the dragon decides to charge and have enough reach with their bows to stay out of reach from its breath attack.

The purple worm is far more tricky in my oppinion. The only disadvantage it has is its int score. I would probably try to lure ti in a solid stone pit and then drop tons of rocks on it. If they wouldn't kill it, they might at least be able to pin it until starvation does the rest.

However dragons would realistically prevent any form of human civilization from ever forming if they really existed in my opinion.. :smallsmile:

Wolf_Shade
2007-06-07, 08:42 AM
However dragons would realistically prevent any form of human civilization from ever forming if they really existed in my opinion.. :smallsmile:
Depends on if your talking intelligent dragons or anamilistic instinct driven dragons.

And actually, in the latter case, so long as their is a sufficient food supply outside of humanity it should have a minimal effect on the actual existence of civilization. The civilization itself might take into account the presence of the dragons as it develops.

hewhosaysfish
2007-06-07, 10:16 AM
Depends on if your talking intelligent dragons or anamilistic instinct driven dragons.

And actually, in the latter case, so long as their is a sufficient food supply outside of humanity it should have a minimal effect on the actual existence of civilization. The civilization itself might take into account the presence of the dragons as it develops.

Indeed. If the dragon sees you as potential prey to be hunted rather than an enemy to be vanquished then you don't have to kill it or even injure it significantly: you just have to poke it's soft bits with a pointy stick until it decides to go and eat cows or deer instead.

If the dragon is intelligent, on the other hand, then diplomacy may be an option. It obviously wants something more than just food: you may be able to save yourself some trouble if you just hand it over. (Where does a 20 ton dragon sleep? Wherever he wants!) If that smacks of appeasement, perhaps you could instead negotiate with another dragon?

Lapak
2007-06-07, 10:32 AM
In terms of dealing with one when one does not have an army and siege engines on one's side - which is obviously the best way - Barbara Hambly's Dragonslayer probably had the most reasonable approach for a single person or small party: catch it on unfavorable ground - a ravine for the giant or worm, on the ground at all for a dragon - and chuck heavily poisoned harpoons at it until it is incapacitated. Then close in with a big, heavy axe to finish it off and prevent it from recovering from the poison.

weenie
2007-06-07, 10:33 AM
Indeed. If the dragon sees you as potential prey to be hunted rather than an enemy to be vanquished then you don't have to kill it or even injure it significantly: you just have to poke it's soft bits with a pointy stick until it decides to go and eat cows or deer instead.

If the dragon is intelligent, on the other hand, then diplomacy may be an option. It obviously wants something more than just food: you may be able to save yourself some trouble if you just hand it over. (Where does a 20 ton dragon sleep? Wherever he wants!) If that smacks of appeasement, perhaps you could instead negotiate with another dragon?

I was using the d&d abilities, or in other words i was considering dragons to be (über)intelligent. In thaht case the only negotiations that could occur between a dragon and humans are Dragon:"This kingdom belongs to me from now on." King of all humans :"As you command master." But my comment was just to point out, that there's a reason why the game is called dungeons and dragons :smallsmile:

Let's rather focus on ways to kill them.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-07, 10:35 AM
Well, that's probably the best way to handle any encounter with an intelligent dragon.

"Say, you wouldn't happen to need some guards to keep out unwanted visitors from your cave, would you? Maybe we could hunt for your breakfast in the morning? Honestly, we'll do just about anything to not be eaten."

"Hey, you little guys are alright. Tell you what- I'll fry anything that tries to wipe you out. Now, I'd like to start my mornings right with two fresh cows and four deer. Also, could you construct a giant pillow for me to sleep on? Cave floors are hard."

Daedo daShoegod
2007-06-07, 12:45 PM
What's really effective against dragons is ballistas (metal bolts) preferably to the wings and legs to keep it from moving. The purple worm is a little tricky (highly acidic stomach acid), but atking it from the inside (preferable whatever constitutes as it's brain) could be effective.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-07, 01:07 PM
Anyone here with the Physics know-how to model a scenario where you're flinging a massive net(at least half the size of the dragon) with barbs? I'm thinking loosely bundled up into a roughly 5' diameter sphere, and probably using a catapult or similar to launch, so as to provide multiple anchor points with which to overload it/clamber on(remember, if it won't pierce the dragon's hide, your armoured body will likely survive scraping against it), in addition to entangling it(which, with Clumsy manoeuvrability, should cause it to plummet/crash dive almost instantly).

weenie
2007-06-07, 01:42 PM
Anyone here with the Physics know-how to model a scenario where you're flinging a massive net(at least half the size of the dragon) with barbs? I'm thinking loosely bundled up into a roughly 5' diameter sphere, and probably using a catapult or similar to launch, so as to provide multiple anchor points with which to overload it/clamber on(remember, if it won't pierce the dragon's hide, your armoured body will likely survive scraping against it), in addition to entangling it(which, with Clumsy manoeuvrability, should cause it to plummet/crash dive almost instantly).

Hmmm, the main problem would be unfolding the net at the right time... A better approach would in my opinion consist of multiple balistas firiing a bolt with an end of the net attached to it simultaniously. You couldn't shoot it far, due to air resistance, but then again if the dragon saw it coming from far it could simply burn it down. So there would be some falling damage, but not enough and once on the ground the dragon should be able to easily tear trough it(incredible str bonus) or burn the net. I think damaging the wings would still be a better solution.

Were-Sandwich
2007-06-07, 01:54 PM
What about some kind of discarding sabot flechette ammo for the ballista, kinda like the Piecemaker? Wait until the dragon's coming in for its flame run, then shred its wings.

mauslin
2007-06-07, 07:12 PM
The problem with this analysis is that it makes assumptions about the wielder. a 2 inch razor blade can kill you in the hands of an adult, and wound you in the hands of a toddler, but imagine it in the hands of, say, a mouse. sure, it might be able to wield it, move it around, but it would have to get damn lucky to hit an artery. If these creatures are scaled up in strength and toughness as much as size than it's not just the size of the weapon that matters, its the size of the wielder.


I would disagree about not being afraid of a mouse. A mouse could run up your trousers and attack, ahem, sensitive areas. Give a mouse a 2 inch knife and the intellegence to use it properly and it could be quite deadly to you. Particularly if there's more then one.


And probably want to replace your swords with two handed axes- easier to bite through thick skin and tendon.

Even better? The two person hacksaws used to cut down big trees.

Awetugiw
2007-06-08, 04:13 AM
Anyone here with the Physics know-how to model a scenario where you're flinging a massive net(at least half the size of the dragon) with barbs? I'm thinking loosely bundled up into a roughly 5' diameter sphere, and probably using a catapult or similar to launch, so as to provide multiple anchor points with which to overload it/clamber on(remember, if it won't pierce the dragon's hide, your armoured body will likely survive scraping against it), in addition to entangling it(which, with Clumsy manoeuvrability, should cause it to plummet/crash dive almost instantly).

The problem is that physics know-how doesn't really apply here. Those monsters defy physics by simply existing. Especially a couple of factors like the strength a dragon would have for an attempt to break free cannot be realistically estimated.

"Would the dragon realistically fall out of the sky after being hit with this?" "Well, realistically the dragon would fall out of the sky even without being hit, and I see no reason hitting him would keep him up."

That being said... Anything with enough strength to keep that massive a body in the air will break through any net that can unfold quickly enough without using any real effort. Especially if we really restrict ourselves to medieval technology.

Dausuul
2007-06-08, 08:32 AM
I would disagree about not being afraid of a mouse. A mouse could run up your trousers and attack, ahem, sensitive areas. Give a mouse a 2 inch knife and the intellegence to use it properly and it could be quite deadly to you. Particularly if there's more then one.

Indeed. Who here has seen "Army of Darkness?" :smallbiggrin:

Comedy aside, we're assuming mice here who are smart and extremely skilled. A mouse-sized bow might not look like much of a threat--until you run into one in the hands of a high-level mouse archer who can put a needle into each of your eyes. Not worried about that two-inch sword? You will be when the high-level mouse fighter runs up behind you and drives it into your Achilles tendon.

The actual kill will take them a while, but if they're smarter, quicker, and more skilled than you are (which is the usual case in D&D combat), they'll manage it eventually.