Dueling and Two-Weapon Fighting

[weaseldust]

Think of this as a combination of a "Would you allow this?" question and a "Do you think the rules are intended to forbid this?" question. I didn't put it in the simple RAW thread because I think it's neither simple nor purely a matter of RAW, but I'm happy to have this deleted and post a question there if the mods prefer it.

Suppose you start your turn with a scimitar in one hand and a dagger in the other, and you have the Dueling fighting style. You take the Attack action and throw the dagger. Since you made an attack with a light weapon held in one hand, you can make a bonus action attack with the light weapon in your other hand. Further, since you are now wielding a weapon in only one hand you can apply the benefits of the Dueling style (+2 damage) to that attack. I don't have any problems with this, it's the next part I'm not sure about.

Suppose instead you made a melee attack with the dagger and then sheathed it. Would you still get the bonus action attack? The relevant sentence in the rules on Two-Weapon Fighting (in the spoiler below) says you get it when you attack with a weapon that you're holding. The use of the present continuous could just be part of the casual style of the rules, or it could rule out gaining the bonus attack if you drop or sheathe the first weapon. However, the latter interpretation conflicts with being explicitly allowed to throw either weapon. (Perhaps that's intended as a specific exception rather than a clarification? Does it matter if it's not explicitly an exception?)

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."

It wouldn't be a big deal, except that if you take the Dueling fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat you can theoretically attack with a rapier, sheathe it, and make a bonus attack and any other attacks you have with a second rapier, adding Dueling damage to them all. Arguably, if that is allowed, you could start with one drawn, attack, sheathe it, unsheathe the other, and proceed as before, so you also gain Dueling damage on the first attack (this works every turn because you can interact with two weapons per turn as part of the feat). As long as you can make at least two attacks with your action, this benefits you more than the Two-Weapon Fighting style (and paints an odd image of you sword-juggling in combat that kind of conflicts with what the Dueling style is meant to be about).

If you are wondering whether the extra damage is excessive, it turns out to be very high but not unprecedented. E.g. at level 11, a Champion might have the Dueling and Two-Weapon Fighting styles and the Dual Wielder feat. With the last procedure described, they could make 4 attacks every turn dealing up to 11.5 average damage with each. With a 70% average chance to hit, that makes 32.2 the expected damage. A Champion who used a greatsword and the Great Weapon Master feat could make 3 attacks dealing 23 1/3 damage each with a 45% chance to hit, which makes 31.5 the expected damage (or 13 1/3 damage at 70% for 28 expected damage), but they would have a spare fighting style available and would gain their own bonus action attacks from the feat every so often.

[LtPowers]

I am reasonably certain the rules did not intend for you to be able to gain the benefits of TWF and dueling simply by juggling your weapons back and forth.


Powers &8^]

[Shaofoo]

Think of this as a combination of a "Would you allow this?" question and a "Do you think the rules are intended to forbid this?" question. I didn't put it in the simple RAW thread because I think it's neither simple nor purely a matter of RAW, but I'm happy to have this deleted and post a question there if the mods prefer it.

Suppose you start your turn with a scimitar in one hand and a dagger in the other, and you have the Dueling fighting style. You take the Attack action and throw the dagger. Since you made an attack with a light weapon held in one hand, you can make a bonus action attack with the light weapon in your other hand. Further, since you are now wielding a weapon in only one hand you can apply the benefits of the Dueling style (+2 damage) to that attack. I don't have any problems with this, it's the next part I'm not sure about.

Suppose instead you made a melee attack with the dagger and then sheathed it. Would you still get the bonus action attack? The relevant sentence in the rules on Two-Weapon Fighting (in the spoiler below) says you get it when you attack with a weapon that you're holding. The use of the present continuous could just be part of the casual style of the rules, or it could rule out gaining the bonus attack if you drop or sheathe the first weapon. However, the latter interpretation conflicts with being explicitly allowed to throw either weapon. (Perhaps that's intended as a specific exception rather than a clarification? Does it matter if it's not explicitly an exception?)

You were holding a weapon when you made the attack that allows you to TWF, the important thing is that you made an attack with a relevant weapon. I would say that it doesn't matter the state of the weapon and where it is as long as you made the attack with a legal weapon. If you were to attack someone with a legal weapon and you were disarmed of the weapon you could still TWF even though the weapon is not on your person anymore.


"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand."

It wouldn't be a big deal, except that if you take the Dueling fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat you can theoretically attack with a rapier, sheathe it, and make a bonus attack and any other attacks you have with a second rapier, adding Dueling damage to them all. Arguably, if that is allowed, you could start with one drawn, attack, sheathe it, unsheathe the other, and proceed as before, so you also gain Dueling damage on the first attack (this works every turn because you can interact with two weapons per turn as part of the feat). As long as you can make at least two attacks with your action, this benefits you more than the Two-Weapon Fighting style (and paints an odd image of you sword-juggling in combat that kind of conflicts with what the Dueling style is meant to be about).

You ca't do that via the feat.

The feat says that you can draw or stow two weapons when you could only stow or draw one. It doesn't say that you can stow one weapon and draw another one or queue up the extra draw and stow for later. When you stow or draw a weapon you must immediately draw or stow the extra weapon in the same action and not the other action.

[Z3ro]

You ca't do that via the feat.

The feat says that you can draw or stow two weapons when you could only stow or draw one. It doesn't say that you can stow one weapon and draw another one or queue up the extra draw and stow for later. When you stow or draw a weapon you must immediately draw or stow the extra weapon in the same action and not the other action.

I don't read this the same way you are; the feat explicitly says, as you quoted, you can draw or stow two when normally you could only do one. This can be read two ways; as you have, meaning the second action must immediately follow the first. The second way to read this is it's essentially giving you a second, extremely limited, free interaction. Given the simplified nature of this edition, I'd be inclined to read it the second way.

Though I obviously agree, the rules, whatever can be read into them, are not meant to work that way.

[Kryx]

Definitely not RAI, nor a good idea imo.

TWF needs to be fixed for everyone, not just some builds who can grab 2 fighting styles and then juggle weapons.

[Shaofoo]

I don't read this the same way you are; the feat explicitly says, as you quoted, you can draw or stow two when normally you could only do one. This can be read two ways; as you have, meaning the second action must immediately follow the first. The second way to read this is it's essentially giving you a second, extremely limited, free interaction. Given the simplified nature of this edition, I'd be inclined to read it the second way.

Though I obviously agree, the rules, whatever can be read into them, are not meant to work that way.

Here is how I read it.

Can you stow or draw a weapon?

You can instead stow or draw two weapons with the feat.

I don't read it as

Can you draw or stow a weapon?

Now you can draw or stow another weapon as well with the feat.

There is no second action, the stow or draw two weapons supersede the stow or draw one weapon interaction. You choose one or the other, you don't get two stow or draw actions to be taken at any time. You draw or stow both weapons at the same time, there is no separation of time where either weapon is out of sync with the other.

[Addaran]

First exemple of throwing a dagger then benefiting the dueling style for your attack with the other hand, sure. You had to get both fighting styles someone and it's not that game breaking or weird concept wise.

But the second exemple where you just keep sheathing and unsheathing your weapon? No. Never mind the mechanical style, it's totally unelegant and unrealistic way of fighting.

[Thrudd]

You really need to ask yourself: does it make any sense for a person to do this? What possible practical advantage could a person gain in combat by sheathing a weapon they are using in the middle of a fight? The whole question and premise is ridiculous. Since it doesn't make sense for a person to do this, the rules do not mean for this to be allowed. Even if the advantage gained by this cheese is only slight and the rules technically allow it to happen, it should not provide any benefit.
Even in the first example, throwing a dagger, you are dual wielding in the round when you have two weapons in hand and attack with both, regardless of what kind of attack it is. Remember the round is only 6 seconds. You don't get to use dueling style in that round. Subsequent rounds, where you now are fighting with one weapon from beginning to end, you are dueling.

[Ralanr]

What if you used one weapon and juggled it in between your left and right hand between attacks?

[Shaofoo]

What if you used one weapon and juggled it in between your left and right hand between attacks?

You will still need to use up your interact objects to move your weapon from one hand to the next. You'd need DM permission to do what you are saying and most likely it will require you to do some skill checks. There ain't no free way to let you switch weapon between hands.

[Z3ro]

You will still need to use up your interact objects to move your weapon from one hand to the next. You'd need DM permission to do what you are saying and most likely it will require you to do some skill checks. There ain't no free way to let you switch weapon between hands.

The issue with juggle one weapon isn't the free interaction rule, which should work (how is it any different than sheathing? It's actually a good bit easier). The issue is that the TWF rules specifically state the bonus attack must be with a different weapon.

[Ralanr]

You will still need to use up your interact objects to move your weapon from one hand to the next. You'd need DM permission to do what you are saying and most likely it will require you to do some skill checks. There ain't no free way to let you switch weapon between hands.

I imagined using it as a part of your movement action. Plus the two weapon fighting feat allows for interaction with two objects.

[Thrudd]

What if you used one weapon and juggled it in between your left and right hand between attacks?

Mechanically that would mean nothing, the game doesn't distinguish between left and right hand. You can use dueling style if you are using a single one-handed weapon. If in a round you use two weapons, or a two handed weapon, you aren't using the dueling style. If you aren't holding two weapons, you aren't two weapon fighting. If you have a weapon in each hand and you attack with both of them in a round, you qualify for two weapon style.

[Shaofoo]

The issue with juggle one weapon isn't the free interaction rule, which should work (how is it any different than sheathing? It's actually a good bit easier). The issue is that the TWF rules specifically state the bonus attack must be with a different weapon.

I never said that it was a problem, I said that it used up such an interaction but the way he was phrasing it was that you could somehow get an extra interaction out of an apparent simple element. And yes it would be infinitely easier than trying the sheathing. And yes you are right that it should be different weapons to do the TWF, probably to avoid magic weapon double dipping.


I imagined using it as a part of your movement action. Plus the two weapon fighting feat allows for interaction with two objects.

There are extra interactions which you may use as part of your movement and action, if you use one interaction then you used it up for your turn. Switching weapons in your hand uses up such an interaction in my book. You can't say you use your movement to switch weapons, you use your interaction to switch weapons in tandem with your attack, movement is for moving around and everything else that it is stated that movement is used for, nothing more.

Also the feat allows to stow or draw two weapons when you can only do so with one weapon, it doesn't allow for two item interactions of any kind that isn't drawing or stowing two weapons.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Over in the thread "Multiclass fighting style fix", I suggested that I was okay with this, for the purpose of switching from one fighting style to another. It's good to be versatile, and there are any number of legitimate reasons a character might want to change from one fighting style to another during combat.

However, this isn't one of them. Pulling these kind of shenanigans every time your turn comes up in order to benefit from two fighting style at once is definitely not OK. I'm leaning towards revising my earlier stance; changing fighting styles should be allowed, but a character shouldn't benefit from the "new" style until the start of their next turn.

[weaseldust]

Thanks for all the comments.

To be clear, I don't think that juggling your weapons every turn should be permitted. That was an example of how allowing you to juggle your weapons on one turn led to pathological results. But juggling your weapons on one turn, or just every so often - i.e. attacking with the dagger and then putting it away - might be justifiable on some occasions, e.g. when showboating. (I would maybe allow you to have a switchblade hidden up your sleeve that you could flick in and out every turn, but it would only be a dagger and you'd have to have the other weapon drawn the whole time.)

I know the rules don't intend the above, but I was specifically interested in whether they intend to forbid it with the "weapon you're holding" language.

[Thrudd]

Thanks for all the comments.

To be clear, I don't think that juggling your weapons every turn should be permitted. That was an example of how allowing you to juggle your weapons on one turn led to pathological results. But juggling your weapons on one turn, or just every so often - i.e. attacking with the dagger and then putting it away - might be justifiable on some occasions, e.g. when showboating. (I would maybe allow you to have a switchblade hidden up your sleeve that you could flick in and out every turn, but it would only be a dagger and you'd have to have the other weapon drawn the whole time.)

I know the rules don't intend the above, but I was specifically interested in whether they intend to forbid it with the "weapon you're holding" language.

I think the rules don't intend anything regarding such behavior, because it is a nonsensical action that would not be anticipated by the designers. The rules don't specifically forbid a great many things, because there is no way they could anticipate an infinite number of possible silly things that shouldn't ever happen. Rulings must depend on common sense.

[HoarsHalberd]

Over in the thread "Multiclass fighting style fix", I suggested that I was okay with this, for the purpose of switching from one fighting style to another. It's good to be versatile, and there are any number of legitimate reasons a character might want to change from one fighting style to another during combat.

However, this isn't one of them. Pulling these kind of shenanigans every time your turn comes up in order to benefit from two fighting style at once is definitely not OK. I'm leaning towards revising my earlier stance; changing fighting styles should be allowed, but a character shouldn't benefit from the "new" style until the start of their next turn.

Your fix undermines the purpose of fighting styles. They are meant to show increased focus and training with regards to a specific weapon group rather than just be what you're holding at the time. If they're just meant to be things you can switch between on the fly, then all martials including Barbarians, monks and rogues should get them as well.

[Ralanr]

Your fix undermines the purpose of fighting styles. They are meant to show increased focus and training with regards to a specific weapon group rather than just be what you're holding at the time. If they're just meant to be things you can switch between on the fly, then all martials including Barbarians, monks and rogues should get them as well.

That's a pretty big decision at level 1 for fighter.

[bid]

That's a pretty big decision at level 1 for fighter.
That's why AL allows you to adjust your character until level 5.

[Ralanr]

That's why AL allows you to adjust your character until level 5.

Forgive me, I don't know what AL is.

[bid]

Forgive me, I don't know what AL is.
Adventurers League.

[Ralanr]

Adventurers League.

Oh. Cool. Did not know that.

[HoarsHalberd]

That's a pretty big decision at level 1 for fighter.

Yup, same as picking as class at level 1 or an archetype for any of the various classes which get one at level 1.

[Joe the Rat]

Over in the thread "Multiclass fighting style fix", I suggested that I was okay with this, for the purpose of switching from one fighting style to another. It's good to be versatile, and there are any number of legitimate reasons a character might want to change from one fighting style to another during combat.

This is where I'm inclined to be. Dueling OR Two Weapon (which is how the rules actually work). Now, if someone is holding two weapons, and wishes to use the dueling style, I am inclined to allow it so long as they forgo the bonus action attack option. I'm on the fence as to whether to allow the AC bonus from the dual wielding feat in this situation.

[bid]

This is where I'm inclined to be. Dueling OR Two Weapon (which is how the rules actually work). Now, if someone is holding two weapons, and wishes to use the dueling style, I am inclined to allow it so long as they forgo the bonus action attack option. I'm on the fence as to whether to allow the AC bonus from the dual wielding feat in this situation.
Well, if you end up using your offhand as some sort of parry knife/shield, I guess that'd be ok.