New DM - Custom Zelda Campaign Question

[Randomman5]

So, I started DM'ing a Zelda-themed 3.5 campaign (my first campaign ever, actually), and seeing as how I have a party of 6 (plus 2 DM-controlled party members), I'm honestly surprised I've made it this far without ever asking for help.

So, my party is level 6 consisting of a Barbarian, 2 Sorcerers, a Wizard, a Rogue, a Monk and a Ranger. The next major boss I'm thinking of throwing them up against has probably around 100 HP (possibly 120) with an AC of 17 and the ability to summon (extremely weak) minions as a full-round action. Is...that too crazy? The boss has an ability to steal a melee weapon if the attack doesn't beat his AC by more than 2, but only one character actually uses theirs to attack. Everyone else either has a ranged weapon, bare fists or magic. I'll post the boss's stats and abilities and I'd like some feedback on how to balance this guy out.

Demon Lord Ghirahim

Str - 16
Con - N/A
Dex - 14
Int - 18
Wis - 12
Con - 18
AC - 20
HP - 120
Attacks
True Demon Sword - 2d8+4
Demon Darts - 2d6+2 (deflectable)

Feats/Spells

Spell Resistance 22

Damage Reduction 10/good

+4 against mind-altering effects

Thousand Knives - 4d6 damage to everyone in a 15 ft. radius. Reflex halves damage. (Based on Ghirahim's Special Attack from Hyrule Warriors).

Red Thread - Ghirahim declares one enemy that he has line-of-sight with (range: 15 feet). Target takes -2 AC, -2 to hit and +2 damage from Ghirahim's attacks, but Ghirahim takes -1 AC to everyone else.

Summon Minion - Summon 1d6 Bokoblins or 1d3 Moblins. Swift action.

Weapon Catch - Make Reflex save against any attack that beats his AC by 3 or less.
If he makes the save, the attack is stopped and opponent is disarmed.
Cannot be used while holding a stolen weapon.
Ghirahim takes no attack penalty on thrown weapon but does take penalties when attacking with a weapon that is not a sword.
Throwing weapon is a free action.

Teleport - Can teleport as a move action. Moves through barriers.
Does not provoke attack of opportunity.

Damage reduction and spell resistance removed if gem in his chest is damaged/broken (Dungeon doesn't have a key item but some players recently got weapons/feats that will allow them to do this).

[Troacctid]

Underpowered. His offensive and defensive stats aren't up to par for a party of four, let alone a party of eight. I expect him to drop in the first or second round without the players breaking a sweat.

[Randomman5]

Any advice on how to buff him up? I was thinking of giving him an AoE attack since this party really likes to bunch together and I wanna break them of that.

(The boss is Ghirahim from Skyward Sword, by the way, if that helps).

[Troacctid]

Throwing a weapon is a free action. Summoning minions is a swift action. Attacks deal more damage, and one attack hits everyone in a 15-foot square. AC is boosted to 20. Add spell resistance 22, damage reduction 10/good, and a +4 bonus to saves against mind-affecting. Using the dungeon's key item against him removes the spell resistance and damage reduction.

That's off the top of my head. Ideally you'd do some actual math to get the numbers right.

[Randomman5]

Something unrelated to this specific boss but it's now happened twice in my campaign - at least 2 players have Magic Missile as a spell and are fully aware that it doesn't miss. Twice now they've declared a specific target (for example, the boss at the time was vulnerable to being blinded if shot in the eye) and claimed "Magic Missile doesn't miss," and thus they hit the boss in the eye with Magic Missile, blinding it. Can they do that?

Also, putting Ghirahim's new stats in the original post. Tell me if these seem better.

[Troacctid]

Magic Missile shouldn't do that, as the text specifically disallows it.

Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out.
It would be reasonable to allow it through an item or feat investment, or by researching an improved version of the spell, or something like that.

The power level of the boss is starting to look a little more reasonable. He should present a better challenge now.

[Randomman5]

Uh, one more (I'm really new at this, sorry). Last session I had an enemy that could be stunned and then have a Bomb Flower (which were growing around the room) thrown at it to crit it. The idea was that the bombs were an improvised throwing weapon, so the increased damage was offset by the higher difficulty of hitting with them. One player was playing as a Goron and argued that since Bomb Flowers are a Goron crop, he shouldn't take a penalty to throwing one. I did take away the penalty to the throw but...should I have? I wasn't sure since it felt like meta-gaming (he wouldn't have known that without playing Ocarina of Time). I mean, he missed anyway, but still.

[Honest Tiefling]

Uh, one more (I'm really new at this, sorry). Last session I had an enemy that could be stunned and then have a Bomb Flower (which were growing around the room) thrown at it to crit it. The idea was that the bombs were an improvised throwing weapon, so the increased damage was offset by the higher difficulty of hitting with them. One player was playing as a Goron and argued that since Bomb Flowers are a Goron crop, he shouldn't take a penalty to throwing one. I did take away the penalty to the throw but...should I have? I wasn't sure since it felt like meta-gaming (he wouldn't have known that without playing Ocarina of Time). I mean, he missed anyway, but still.

I don't think it is metagaming, because he is accessing knowledge that his character would have. Presumably, Gorons know what the heck is up with them. Metagaming is obtaining knowledge the character would NOT have. Researching the setting for character appropriate knowledge is well...Making a character. Forcing players not to know basic facts about their own species is a bad move.

As for if it is reasonable, I haven't played the game in...Well, eons, but I thought that was sorta their fluff? I think the player has a point that it does make a certain degree of sense. If it is reasonable, however, depends greatly on how powerful the Goron race is. If the race was statted to be quite weak or refluffed from a weaker race, then its giving a presumably weaker character a slight edge in a single encounter. If the Goron race is the bee's knees and he's been dominating encounters...Well, actually, given that it is a Goron, I'd say still do it, but find other ways to give other characters the spotlight. Typically, giving more advantages is better then taking them away. Especially when something is so heavily associated with that advantage.

If the bomb flowers aren't going to be terribly prevalent, then it is rarely going to come up and be an issue. I would say you should probably not worry about it, if this is the case. At worst, you've given him the spotlight in a single encounter. As long as he's not hogging it, that's a good thing. Spread that limelight love around.

[Troacctid]

If Gorons have racial proficiency with bomb flowers, then sure. It's a custom race, so it's your call. I think your player makes a decent case for it.

Although... my inclination would probably be to treat the bomb flowers as splash weapons rather than improvised weapons, assuming they explode on impact. Splash weapons don't require proficiency, so the point becomes moot.

For what it's worth, when in doubt, you seem to rule in favor of the PCs, which is a good instinct for a DM unfamiliar with the rules.

[Nibbens]

Any advice on how to buff him up? I was thinking of giving him an AoE attack since this party really likes to bunch together and I wanna break them of that.

Numbers. Even out the action economy. Your players have 6 players, more than that many attacks per turn. So should you as well. You gave him the ability to summon as a swift action, wonderful. Now make sure her starts the fight with at least 5 or 6 additional minions already on the board (and these minions should be stronger than the things he summons) but not as strong as him and you'd be good. Might give the Pcs a chance to run for their money! :D

[Seto]

Numbers. Even out the action economy. Your players have 6 players, more than that many attacks per turn. So should you as well. You gave him the ability to summon as a swift action, wonderful. Now make sure her starts the fight with at least 5 or 6 additional minions already on the board (and these minions should be stronger than the things he summons) but not as strong as him and you'd be good. Might give the Pcs a chance to run for their money! :D

Alternatively, traps. They use up actions on the part of the players, to avoid or (in the case of your Rogue) disable them, and difficult terrain is often a prominent feature of boss fights in LoZ. It should be something that hinders PCs and not the boss. In Zelda, it's for example a moving floor (or spikes on the floor) with a flying boss, or patches of ice with an icy villain, etc. It can even be a result of the boss' attacks.

[Randomman5]

If Gorons have racial proficiency with bomb flowers, then sure. It's a custom race, so it's your call. I think your player makes a decent case for it. Although... my inclination would probably be to treat the bomb flowers as splash weapons rather than improvised weapons, assuming they explode on impact. Splash weapons don't require proficiency, so the point becomes moot. For what it's worth, when in doubt, you seem to rule in favor of the PCs, which is a good instinct for a DM unfamiliar with the rules.

To be honest, the main reason I counted it as an improvised attack is the nature of what he wanted to do - to crit, the bomb had to land inside the monster's mouth (classic Zelda trick) and so splash damage wouldn't have mattered since the outside of the monster isn't what's vulnerable. It would've taken normal splash damage had it hit. Funnily enough, he wound up rolling a 1, missing, and killing a summoned creature that one of the sorcerers summoned instead.


Numbers. Even out the action economy. Your players have 6 players, more than that many attacks per turn. So should you as well. You gave him the ability to summon as a swift action, wonderful. Now make sure her starts the fight with at least 5 or 6 additional minions already on the board (and these minions should be stronger than the things he summons) but not as strong as him and you'd be good. Might give the Pcs a chance to run for their money! :D

I actually planned on that, believe it or not! :biggrin: The boss encounter isn't happening in a dungeon, but instead it's an attack on a city. So he's going to have other monsters backing him up.


Alternatively, traps. They use up actions on the part of the players, to avoid or (in the case of your Rogue) disable them, and difficult terrain is often a prominent feature of boss fights in LoZ. It should be something that hinders PCs and not the boss. In Zelda, it's for example a moving floor (or spikes on the floor) with a flying boss, or patches of ice with an icy villain, etc. It can even be a result of the boss' attacks.

I actually considered giving him the ability to summon walls or barriers, since that's a thing Ghirahim does near the end of the game and it would serve to separate the party to make attacking Ghirahim harder.

[Troacctid]

Attacking a city could get complicated. You're involving a lot of NPCs and structures and stuff, and presumably operating on a larger scale in general. If you have Heroes of Battle, there's some rules there for large-scale combats that may prove useful, including siege weaponry, attacking and defending key points, breaking morale, sabotaging supply lines, and so on.

[Randomman5]

Well, the idea is that the fight is thousands of years before even Skyward Sword, and so the warfare is really basic. There's not even any siege weaponry yet. The idea is that the party is fighting off Ghirahim so that he doesn't murder every single person in the city and get time for Skyloft (which isn't in the sky yet) to actually be sent into the sky. So it's more like "beat up Ghirahim and his troops so he doesn't absolutely slaughter the city."

...That only made sense to anyone who's played Skyward Sword or read the prequel manga.

[Darrin]

Attacking a city could get complicated.

In a Zelda campaign, the cities should be largely unpopulated. Maybe a dozen citizens, tops. But most of them are shopkeepers, so you absolutely do not want to attack (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShopliftAndDie) (Warning: TVTropes black hole (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)).

[Randomman5]

Funny enough, I just played Link's Awakening for the first time (the game that has the shopkeeper murder you with Force Lightning if you steal) and now I'm planning a subplot of the campaign where the party winds up on Koholint Island, trapped inside a collective dream. Everything will be black and white, and a successful Listen check will let a player notice that everything sounds flat, like a mono speaker.

Two reasons for that. One: it's a hint that it's all a dream and thus their senses are kinda wonky since dreams are weird. Two: it's a bit of a fourth wall joke - Link's Awakening was on the Gameboy, which was monochrome and had mono speakers. Mostly that first one, though.

[Randomman5]

So, another question - I want to ask about the gear I've given my players and see if it's appropriate for their levels/classes. Please remember, I'm really new at this. They're all level 6, the Barbarian has a sword that deals 1d6, the Monk is unarmed, one Sorcerer has a wand that adds 1d4 to any damaging spell and increases spell range by 10 feet, the Rogue has a rapier that deals 1d6 plus his backstab damage since that's all he goes for. The other sorcerer has the Four Sword that deals 1d12 and lets him split into four copies, each of which then deal 1d3 instead. I've long since realized that the Four Sword was an awful idea and will try to find a way to get rid of the damn thing so it doesn't make him OP. The Wizard has a slingshot that deals 1d3 damage and has ammo (Ember Seeds) that can deal an additional 1d3 fire. Finally, the Ranger has a 1d8 bow, plus bombs that he can use to fire Bomb Arrows for 1d8 + 1d6 damage (arrow damage + bomb damage). Nobody really has any kind of decent armor.

[Estralita]

Oooh Link's awakening was the first Zelda game I ever played!

I remember a bunch of other weird things in Link, like some meta intro dialogue from the kids, and having to play a crane game to get a Yoshi doll to start the trade quest. Are you going to include things like that? What is their goal?

[Randomman5]

Well, the goal includes a moral choice. I'm going to do everything I can to get them endeared to Marin and the townsfolk of Mabe Village...and then drop the bomb that the whole place is a dream, and that they have to wake the Wind Fish to leave. Waking the Wind Fish will, in turn, basically erase everyone on the island. I'm also going to include little references to Link's Awakening, as well as the "Wake Up" creepypasta.

[Estralita]

Are the players familiar with the plot of Link's Awakening? That plot twist complete shocked me when I was little.

[Randomman5]

Only one of them has played it, though three might be aware of it since I told those three that I was "toying with a dream subplot."

[Randomman5]

Okay, new question since I didn't think creating a new thread was appropriate - I plan on adapting Twilight Princess's Shadow Beasts for this campaign and need help figuring out custom stats for them. I intend for them to appear in groups of three and have their main ability from the game - a paralyzing scream that revives any dead Shadow Beasts around them. A Shadow Beast will only use it if they are the only one of their group left alive, and it's a full-round action for them to do this. Other than that, they attack with claws and have an ape-like stance to them. Any advice?

[Orion Hamby]

I would stay them as either apes or ogres, maybe with the shadow template from manual of the planes, otherwise the ability looks good

[Randomman5]

So these are the stats I have for them (literally just looked up ogres online, gave them the appropriate number of hit die and added abilities from the shadow template.)

Shadow Beasts

Size/Type: Large/Shadow (Twilight)
Hit Dice: 6d8+11 (42 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claws +8 melee (2d8+7) or javelin +1 ranged (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Twilit Scream (Stuns all enemies that fail a Fort save and revives all Shadow Beasts around it)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Move Silently +6, Cold resistance of 9, Shadow Blend, Plane Shift (to or from the Twilight Realm once per
day via Twilight Portal).
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +5, Listen +2, Spot +2

Oh, and one little thing that I haven't told my players yet - the Shadow Beasts are all innocent people that have been transformed. They'll find out when they kill the first group and see them transform back upon death (didn't happen in TP but I'm taking liberties).

[Orion Hamby]

So these are the stats I have for them (literally just looked up ogres online, gave them the appropriate number of hit die and added abilities from the shadow template.)

Shadow Beasts

Size/Type: Large/Shadow (Twilight)
Hit Dice: 6d8+11 (42 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claws +8 melee (2d8+7) or javelin +1 ranged (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Twilit Scream (Stuns all enemies that fail a Fort save and revives all Shadow Beasts around it)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Move Silently +6, Cold resistance of 9, Shadow Blend, Plane Shift (to or from the Twilight Realm once per
day via Twilight Portal).
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +3
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +5, Listen +2, Spot +2

Oh, and one little thing that I haven't told my players yet - the Shadow Beasts are all innocent people that have been transformed. They'll find out when they kill the first group and see them transform back upon death (didn't happen in TP but I'm taking liberties).

Looks good to me, also that is a beautiful addition to your world, I hope your players enjoy it. It looks great.

[Randomman5]

Thanks! I actually ambushed them with 3 Shadow Beasts at the end of last session and was just gonna stat the Beasts as gargoyles but your suggestions are so much better! This is gonna be awesome!

[Segev]

Oh, and one little thing that I haven't told my players yet - the Shadow Beasts are all innocent people that have been transformed. They'll find out when they kill the first group and see them transform back upon death (didn't happen in TP but I'm taking liberties).

Just be careful with this. Do not attempt to rub in any sense of responsibility for the first time this happens. While many PCs (and some players) will feel it anyway, the temptation to "insist" that they feel bad about it is strong for some DMs. And it's a bad one, because it can achieve the opposite and make it ring hollow. "Oh, you forced us to do this awful thing and now want us to feel bad about it."

Done without DM commentary, just stating what happens and what they see, and then let them feel whatever they want to feel over it, however, will probably be very powerful. So go for it! I only caution because I've seen DMs try to over-sell it and undermine their own goal.

[Randomman5]

Thanks for the warning. Yeah, I definitely want the reaction to be natural, not forced. Two PCs are actually from the Twilight Realm and so I'm hoping it will cause at least some hesitance towards killing Shadow Beasts and influence them to want to take down the person doing it (Zant).

[Orion Hamby]

Thanks! I actually ambushed them with 3 Shadow Beasts at the end of last session and was just gonna stat the Beasts as gargoyles but your suggestions are so much better! This is gonna be awesome!

Thanks, I always enjoy helping people out

[Randomman5]

So, another question for you guys. This time the party is level 8 and I plan on putting them up against a "master assassin" type of boss. Note that the Monk is dead by this point, so their ability to deal physical damage has been hampered a bit. What kind of stats/abilities would be fair for this type of encounter?

[Randomman5]

Hey, me again. I just want to run this boss past you in case it's too easy. The party is level 10 now, but the Monk is dead and the Barbarian...hasn't played in months. Also the one Sorcerer turned evil and got replaced with a Druid.

Usurper King Zant

STR - 14
CON - N/A
DEX - 18
INT - 10
WIS - 16
CHA - 14

HP - 160

Feats/Spells

Spell Resistance 26

Damage Reduction 10/good

+5 against mind-altering effects

Phantom Zant - Can summon a doppelganger of himself to attack with unarmed strikes. Must succeed in a Spot check to discern the real Zant.

Darkness Gauge - Casting a spell gives Zant a "Darkness Counter." At 5 Counters, Zant can perform:

Twilit Storm - A hail of magical blasts in all directions. Inflicts 6d6 damage to everyone in a 20-foot radius of Zant.

Remove Helmet - Zant can remove his helmet to gain a +2 bonus on to hit rolls with his scimitars, but his spell resistance is cut in half upon doing so.

Teleport - Can teleport as a move action.

(Please let me know what improvements I should make to him, I'm running him pretty soon.)