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PMDM
2007-05-28, 10:59 PM
I've been trying to come up with a campaign that breaks out of the box for D&D. One of the ideas is to have a commoner revolution. Sure, as the DM I can dictate that the commoners defaultly win, but I'm also running a high magic campaign. The king can keep his people in check with magic. I'm also breaking one of the most basic laws of D&D: "A higher level character will generally have the advantage". So, I can run a combat where a lot of commoners swarm a 20th lvl wizard-king, as eventually defeat him with their numbers, but I would like a better solution than numbers.

So, I ask an impossible question: Against a team of unlimited resource adventures (4 20th level characters), what could a bunch of commoners do to get the best of them?

It can be any combination of core classes for the core classes.

I fully expect there to be no real solution to this problem, but I would like to see what everyone comes up with anyway.

Solo
2007-05-28, 11:06 PM
Buy Candles of Invocation....

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-28, 11:19 PM
The 4 20th level characters win.

A single wizard can do it.

Dragonmuncher
2007-05-28, 11:20 PM
Hm... steal their stuff. Not with pickpocketing, but maybe they go to an inn, and stable their horses. Some commoners steal the horses in the night, with whatever stuff's on them.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-28, 11:21 PM
They can't use subterfuge to maneuver them into position for a trap (the adventurers would see right through them). So that leaves them with waiting for a situation they could use to their advantage. The best one would be the adventurer's attendance at a mass gathering.

A large group of commoners with slings could take some 20th level characters down, but any of them with DR or contingencies would be pretty much untouchable. They'd pretty much have to pool their resources and hire seers to find soft spots and buy cheap low DC ranged attack items with which to force automatic failures. Also they would need to hope the contingency the wizard has active isn't going to bite them in the ass, nor that he has a clone ready.

Toliudar
2007-05-28, 11:25 PM
Since I'm assuming that the PC's are not among the aforementioned commoners, this is effectively happening off-camera. If you establish it as a plot point, or a point in history, not only will they probably not question it, they probably won't CARE.

However, purely as a thought exercise:

The wizard-king dies of old age. Is found by a servant, who spreads the word. Commoners rush in and claim victory.
The wizard-king, in pursuit of the power required to maintain his iron grip on a kingdom, makes some kind of deal with a powerful entity who eventually claims him, body and soul. Commoners rush in and claim victory.
Wizard-king selects a commoner as a sexual conquest. Falls asleep. Is coup-de-grace'd. Commoners rush in and claim victory.

If you want to have the PC's actually involved in the fight to remove the much-more-powerful opponents, you're probably reduced to leaving an obvious Achilles heel (either individually or as a group), giving the PC's a chance to gain enough levels to challenge the uber-baddies, or make the uber-baddies be exceptionally stupid. As has been shown time and time again, the "Incredibly stupid" template can be applied to most opponents to bring the CR down by as much as 10.:smallamused:

Machete
2007-05-28, 11:27 PM
Give them an impossible quest that they'll surely get killed on.

The Gilded Duke
2007-05-28, 11:31 PM
One thing that would help the game run smoothly and help give the commoners an advantage would be if you were to use the mob template from the DMG 2.

Basically it conversts a group of low level creatures into one gargantuan (i think) creature with more hit dice who acts similarly to a swarm.

Have the commoners kill any commoner who sympathises with a PC. Fighters and things without natural fight and teleportation could likley be killed by massive amounts of mobs.

Wizards, like the wizard lord you mentioned are considerably harder.

Pigeons are how I would do it.

Some of the commoners, and experts who are likley also involved in this rebellion are likley to have some ranks in handle animal. They capture pigeons hawks and other birds or raise them from a young age.

The birds are then trained to identify either known mages, or typical signs of adventurers. They are trained to attack then flee whenever they find an adventure sleeping.

Birds are everywhere, few parties will attack all birds on sight. If they do, use other animals as well.

Whenever a party member is asleep, a bird or other small animal will attempt a coup'de'grace on them. A raven does 2 damage on a critical hit. With a coup'de'grace the victim has to make a dc 12 fortitude save or die. The majority of the time the adventurer will make the save. One out of twenty times they will fail. Even if they make their save, the victim did not get a good night's rest. Thus no restored spells.

In addition, the gathering of the following items would be illegal and punishable by mob justice:
Bat Guano (Fireball)
Amber, Crystal, or Glass Rods (Lightning Bolt)
Diamonds and other Valuable Gems (Ressurection, Symbol of...)
Nightsticks, Candle of Invocation
Potions (Transformation, other spells)
Candles (Summon Monster Spells, Commoners will use torches instead)
Ivory, Marble, Silverware (Magnifigant Mansion)
Powdered Corn Extract (Rope Trick)
Holy Symbols
Silver Wire and Tiny Bells (Alarm)
Forked Metal Rods (Planeshift)

As the Magnifigant Mansion is the greatest hinderance in the campaign against the pc's all rhinos elephants and other ivory containing animals will be killed and the Ivory destroyed. Only through removing Ivory do we remove unbreakable sanctuary.

And so on.

Esentially the goal of the commoners should be to hinder the PC's at any moment. The biggest thing the PC's have going for them is spells, so anybody who gathers spell components should be immediatley shot with heavy crossbow bolts. Without others to gather and produce spell components and Foci the PC's will have to find and produce the components themselves. How many Pc's have Craft Silversmithing to make the tiny silver spoon required for the magnifigant mansion?

The material plane should become inhospitable to the adventures, hopefully they will be driven off planet to die in the nine hells.

brian c
2007-05-28, 11:42 PM
The 4 20th level characters win.

A single wizard can do it.

As much as I despise the overpoweredness of wizards, this is pretty much true. Unless the Wizard is very lazy and/or inattentive (which he shouldn't be, since he's probably Lawful and has very high Int and good Wis), there's no way he gets overtaken by commoners, unless maybe if there are millions and millions of them.

geek_2049
2007-05-29, 12:32 AM
Pull a 7 Samurai type deal where they hire adventurers to teach them (ie give them classes), equip them (sort of), and have the two together fight as their champions.

Bassetking
2007-05-29, 12:33 AM
And the Meek Shall Inherit(Then, re-invest)

The most commonly cited strategy as to the only thing that can beat another 20th level caster.

Another 20th level caster.

Or Two.

If the Mob of Commoners max their provided ranks in Profession(X), Earn as much as they can, and live in abject poverty, they can afford to hire the services of 20th level casters, at some point.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-29, 12:42 AM
As much as I despise the overpoweredness of wizards, this is pretty much true. Unless the Wizard is very lazy and/or inattentive (which he shouldn't be, since he's probably Lawful and has very high Int and good Wis), there's no way he gets overtaken by commoners, unless maybe if there are millions and millions of them.

Even millions and millions don't stand a chance.

Shapechange. It gets the wizard a full heal every round, a breath weapon that will kill every commoner it hits (refreshed every round), he can fly, he gets SR, and DR that the commoners can't beat.

About a round before it wares off cast MMM and go and hang out until you get spells back. Repeat until no commoners are left.

Or use greater draconic ally from Spell Compendium and just higher a dozen dragons to work for you.

And those are without cheese.

Jasdoif
2007-05-29, 01:01 AM
From the "simply fun" wizardry angle, a widened cloudkill cast by a level 20 wizard has the potential to leave a trail of corpses 40 feet wide and just over 2,000 feet long. A widened sunburst deals 6d6 to everyone in a 160-foot radius.

From the "simply fun" commoner angle, use extensive Aid Another for a Diplomacy check to convince a greater deity to move their godly realm to a spot where it covers the level-20s general area, then labor for a year and a day to apply a time trait where one year in the godly realm equates to one round in the rest of the Material Plane. With any luck the level-20s won't see any need to bother with the outside world, and in an hour and 15 minutes of their lives the commoners will outlive even a newborn elf with maximum lifespan under the accelerated time trait.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-05-29, 01:02 AM
And those are without cheese.
Shapechange IS cheese, remember?
It's one of those things, where no matter what you do with it (within reason), it's still cheesy.

Tokiko Mima
2007-05-29, 01:09 AM
I would go the Heroes of Horror route. Give an occasional commoner the ability to inflict a special curse upon dying with no save, spell resistance or magic spell removal possible. Some sort of formal ritual is required to lay the curse to rest, the knowledge of which would be in the hands of the commoners.

Also involve Circle magic, and have the commoners have a few exceptional heroes supporting them to strike and fade at the PC's.

Quietus
2007-05-29, 01:22 AM
Even millions and millions don't stand a chance.

Shapechange. It gets the wizard a full heal every round, a breath weapon that will kill every commoner it hits (refreshed every round), he can fly, he gets SR, and DR that the commoners can't beat.

About a round before it wares off cast MMM and go and hang out until you get spells back. Repeat until no commoners are left.

Or use greater draconic ally from Spell Compendium and just higher a dozen dragons to work for you.

And those are without cheese.



Full heal every round? Really? I could've sworn... *Looks this up* Ah yes, as Polymorph.


Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further)

I can see where you'd get a potential there for healing every round... though I think, given the statement that "changing back does not heal the subject further", a strong case can be made that further changes don't heal - and none of them are "full", anyway.

Is there errata that says otherwise I'm unaware of?

And yes, I'm aware that this doesn't change the fact that the wizard could win the fight... but even if he does, he just killed everyone in his own kingdom. It's lose-lose for the wizard.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-29, 01:24 AM
Full heal every round? Really? I could've sworn... *Looks this up* Ah yes, as Polymorph.



I can see where you'd get a potential there for healing every round... though I think, given the statement that "changing back does not heal the subject further", a strong case can be made that further changes don't heal - and none of them are "full", anyway.

Is there errata that says otherwise I'm unaware of?
No errata. You just don't change back to your original form. You change into a different type of dragon every round. For a reloaded breath weapon and full HP.


And yes, I'm aware that this doesn't change the fact that the wizard could win the fight... but even if he does, he just killed everyone in his own kingdom. It's lose-lose for the wizard.

Ah yes. But I was assuming an unwise wizard. A wise wizard would never have his kingdom reach a point like this. And even if he did he would use mind control to keep the rebellion down.

SITB
2007-05-29, 01:30 AM
Unlesss he reanimates every single corpse in his kingdom as an undead under a strict hierarchy so that he will have loyal smart undead at the top that will control loyal, slightly less undead and so on 'till everyone is subject to the Wizard's control.

On a different note, why should a Wizard want to control a kingdom anyway?

greenknight
2007-05-29, 02:58 AM
Face it, once you get to high levels, spellcasters are pretty tough to kill off, especially if you're only a commoner. The best ways I can think of to achieve this is through assassination. Put high powered poison in the Wizard's food, cut the Wizard's throat while he's asleep, have someone with an antimagic field grapple him and kill him with light weapons. Of course, even if you manage to kill him, what do you do about the Clone he's had prepared for just that situation? Not to mention that a Wizard could have some means of preventing each of the above methods from succeeding.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-29, 05:13 AM
Which, if tippy's playing him, he did already.


Commonders can't acess where he sleeps, he eats only food checked for poison from his MMM, he has craft contingent spell to avoid AMF's, rides around on a phantom steed (up high) all day, etc.

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-29, 06:00 AM
So, I ask an impossible question: Against a team of unlimited resource adventures (4 20th level characters), what could a bunch of commoners do to get the best of them?

"Pazuzu! Pazuzu! Pazuzu!"

Baskineli
2007-05-29, 06:15 AM
When a small kid gets his ass kicked by a bigger kid, one of the easiest things he can do is to convince the biggest kid to help him :)

The commoners could always hire other high-level NPCs, they could prey to their god to help them, or even go to a quest to bring 50 dragons to kick the PC's ass.

After all, this is how all adventurers start, no?

Foolosophy
2007-05-29, 06:22 AM
"Pazuzu! Pazuzu! Pazuzu!"

:D this one put a smile on my face

Sir Giacomo
2007-05-29, 06:32 AM
The commoners could always hire other high-level NPCs, they could prey to their god to help them, or even go to a quest to bring 50 dragons to kick the PC's ass.


This is likely the best avenue they could take. Plot-wise (7 samurai, anyone?) it would make great sense, only with the pc commoners of 1st level then having to locate the adequate npc heroes (a high WIS commoner with maximum possible sense motive and skill focus-sense motive, plus aid another, could be quite OK).

Another thing is for several farm communities/thousands of commoners led by a charismatic commoner (again, max the respective stats, skills and abilities) will address independent churches to help to get candles of invocation and simply gate in 34 HD creatures that do the job for them vs the lvl 20 party (remember, they are npcs, so also have much less wealth!). Of course, without the infinite Titan loop. In contrast to high level npcs, they may not have that much to lose from gaining the enmity of the being they call...(remember, it is likely called unwilling, and after that risks its life with such a combat task, where it can really perish as opposed to a summoning effect :smallyuk: )
The commoners could even - if very desperate - draw lots and pay appease evil churches with human sacrifice/souls to give to demon lords for the candles to use.

- Giacomo

Dausuul
2007-05-29, 07:59 AM
I've been trying to come up with a campaign that breaks out of the box for D&D. One of the ideas is to have a commoner revolution. Sure, as the DM I can dictate that the commoners defaultly win, but I'm also running a high magic campaign. The king can keep his people in check with magic. I'm also breaking one of the most basic laws of D&D: "A higher level character will generally have the advantage". So, I can run a combat where a lot of commoners swarm a 20th lvl wizard-king, as eventually defeat him with their numbers, but I would like a better solution than numbers.

So, I ask an impossible question: Against a team of unlimited resource adventures (4 20th level characters), what could a bunch of commoners do to get the best of them?

It can be any combination of core classes for the core classes.

I fully expect there to be no real solution to this problem, but I would like to see what everyone comes up with anyway.

Eh, not that hard. You didn't put any level restrictions on the commoners, so just make one of them 150th level. And make sure the adventurers are all melee fighters. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, I don't see any way of doing it without either some sort of built-in weak spot for the adventurers, or the use of extreme cheese tactics by the commoners (and the adventurers not being allowed to use the same cheese). The candle of invocation is probably the best example of such tactics.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-29, 11:14 AM
he has craft contingent spell to avoid AMF's
Contingent spells don't look into the future, having a contingent spell activate with a trigger "when the wearer is affected by an AMF" is useless (they don't have any wording which says they activate before the effect happens). They also can't detect anything not happening to the caster. You could trigger an AMF which activates when you detect an AMF near you (that's something happening to you before the AMF can disable the contingent spell) but that wouldn't help much when you are sleeping.

Not to say there aren't effective strategies against AMF, shrink item is a perfectly good core only one, contingency and contingent spells just are not.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-05-29, 11:16 AM
There's always the FTL quaterstaff railgun...

Saph
2007-05-29, 11:42 AM
It's not actually as hard as you might think. The commoners just have to wait for the adventurers to make a mistake.

There's no "guaranteed kill" tactic to beat high-level characters, but you don't really need one - you just need to find a weak spot. Everyone leaves an opening sooner or later.

In the abstract it's impossible, because for any tactic X that the commoners come up with, the adventurers can use their infinite resources to deal with it. But if the adventurers don't know about the tactic until after they get hit by it . . .

- Saph

Green Bean
2007-05-29, 11:52 AM
It's not actually as hard as you might think. The commoners just have to wait for the adventurers to make a mistake.

There's no "guaranteed kill" tactic to beat high-level characters, but you don't really need one - you just need to find a weak spot. Everyone leaves an opening sooner or later.

In the abstract it's impossible, because for any tactic X that the commoners come up with, the adventurers can use their infinite resources to deal with it. But if the adventurers don't know about the tactic until after they get hit by it . . .

- Saph

The problem isn't finding an opening; if you have enough time, one can be found. The problem is that even a large number of commoners will lack the ability to exploit it. Going toe to toe is just suicidal. Trickery is out; a rogue with ranks in Sense Motive, a cleric, a monk, or a druid will be able to see through any lie the commoners tell. Same goes for trying to surprise them.

The fact is, a group of level twenty adventurers is four people who can be expected to reliably kill four demonic generals every day. Look at the Sapphire Guard going up against Xykon for an example of pretty much what happens when a larger number of low levels go up against a high level character.

skyclad
2007-05-29, 12:00 PM
THe commoners can just challenge them to a game of poker with the deck of many cards ;D

EvilElitest
2007-05-29, 12:02 PM
The 4 20th level characters win.

A single wizard can do it.

Only if the commonors play fair

But what would i do? Screw fighting, i'd hire the seven samurai

After they are destroyed because that class is awful

I'd hire the seven Artifacters and have them do the job for me
from,
EE

Person_Man
2007-05-29, 01:33 PM
Have them form a representative government. That government could levy taxes. With the tax money, they could hire 4 Epic level characters to kill the 4 20th level characters.

Jerthanis
2007-05-30, 12:44 AM
Alternatively, the commoners can surrender. Unless the 20th level characters are utilizing methods to allow themselves to live forever they'll die of old age eventually. If the commoners can just keep their heads down and avoid attracting the leaders' attention, they can survive, passing on their genes and culture to their younger generations who can enjoy life without 20th level tyrants. The respective nobilities can attempt to marry their sons/daughters to the 20th level members and control the dynasty through the children. If the 20th level party is so awful that the commoners simply can't survive under their bootheel anymore, then the best option would be fire. Whatever the 20th level guys want, light on fire. They have a castle? Light it on fire. They want dominion over a country? Light it on fire. They desire the love of a man/woman? Light them on fire. Repeat until there's nothing left for the 20th level guys to have or want. Considering even with retributive strikes against the populace, it's likely there will always be more people than even a level 20 can mass dominate, mass suggest, or even mass charm at one time... eventually everything the level 20s love and care about will be on fire or burnt, and then it won't matter if they're still alive or whatever.

Or, on a completely different model, take the one commoner lucky enough to get 18 intelligence, and debate politics with the level 20 until you convince him that his super-man complex is harmful in the long run, and that people need to be ruled by a force that they can love in equal proportions to fear... and they will never fully accept even a Utopia, much less an imperfect state which is forced upon them by a single massively powerful being. Getting them to throw themselves into the sun to fake their own death, or actually convincing them to commit suicide gets bonus points.

Laurellien
2007-05-30, 05:38 AM
Just get the commoners to pull a tucker's kobolds. Maek them set up ambushes and traps everywhere. That twig? trapped. That path? trapped every 2 feet etc...

B!shop
2007-05-30, 05:58 AM
The 20th level will win in a direct fight, probably, against a mob of commoners - and I'm not sure they will, if the commoners are a lot and overwhelm them so the wizards cannot cast, grapples by tens of commoners.

By the way, there's always the guerrilla tactic.
A King, a small oligarchy if high level people can't rule a place where every single commoner is against them, and killing everyone leaves an empty land.

History gives some examples:
- The plebeian rebellion in ancient Rome.
- The French Revolution.
- The october revolution in Russia.

Al these events is Few Strong vs. Many Weak.

Foolosophy
2007-05-30, 06:11 AM
and they all didn't feature spells from the enchantment school or bardic music :p

pantoffelheld
2007-05-30, 07:41 AM
in the suprise round, 8000 commoners attack the level 20 guy at the same time (ranged weapons mostly, the distance (thus penalty) doesn't matter). Using the variant: instant kill (DMG page 28), one of these 8000 commoners is bound to roll three natural twenty's in a row. which means 7999 projectiles miss the target, but one will almost magically bounce off the bad guys chest, right up his nose making his brain collapse and his head asplode. commoners win the day, hooray!

actually, more projectiles will hit, as the chance to score two natural twenty's in a row is only 0.0025. unless my math sucks (probably a bigger chance)

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-30, 08:18 AM
Um...why are you requiring two natural 20s to hit? An attack always hits on the first natural 20! So 1 in 20 will hit, 1 in 400 will score a critical, and 1 in 8000 will instant-kill if you use that rule.

pantoffelheld
2007-05-30, 08:32 AM
Um...why are you requiring two natural 20s to hit? An attack always hits on the first natural 20! So 1 in 20 will hit, 1 in 400 will score a critical, and 1 in 8000 will instant-kill if you use that rule.

there had to be an error somewhere in that post.... I'm suprised it turned out my math was fine though

Person_Man
2007-05-30, 09:13 AM
You know, now that I think about it, this may be the only scenario where Great Cleave would be a good feat choice for a PC. I knew someone would come up with one eventually.

TheDon
2007-05-30, 09:20 AM
I'd go for a war of attrition personaly, have groups of 10-20 lvl 1 and 2 commoners do suicide attacks on the PC every time they try to go to sleep (let them sleep 4-5 hours, 3 if they have an elf).

This way the mage will slowly run out of spells and the pc will eventualy get fatigued and then exausted and will finaly have to start doing fort (or will, can't remember which) saves in order to stay awake. (so long as you make loud noise they will wake up and prevent restfull sleep now that I think of it).

Once they're asleep, they're free game. If the mage had a rope trick already learned or something similar, then you have 8-10 hours to setup traps at the base of it. But it's going to be much harder to actualy pull this off.

If your PC run away in order to sleep, then just kill the king as the PC failed to protect him.

** added **

Also, every chance you can, try and leave with a magic item, if you can manage to get the drop on them, leave with a whole back pack or the fighter's armor.

And if the rogue tries to make a spot/sense motive check to see who's doing this, just answer everyone seems to be looking suspiciously at them. So they'll either just suck it up or raze the town... at which point you can get the king and his guards involved.

(edited for spacing issues so it doesn't look like one big block of text)

Green Bean
2007-05-30, 10:35 AM
I'd go for a war of attrition personaly, have groups of 10-20 lvl 1 and 2 commoners do suicide attacks on the PC every time they try to go to sleep (let them sleep 4-5 hours, 3 if they have an elf).

This way the mage will slowly run out of spells and the pc will eventualy get fatigued and then exausted and will finaly have to start doing fort (or will, can't remember which) saves in order to stay awake. (so long as you make loud noise they will wake up and prevent restfull sleep now that I think of it).

Once they're asleep, they're free game. If the mage had a rope trick already learned or something similar, then you have 8-10 hours to setup traps at the base of it. But it's going to be much harder to actualy pull this off.

If your PC run away in order to sleep, then just kill the king as the PC failed to protect him.

** added **

Also, every chance you can, try and leave with a magic item, if you can manage to get the drop on them, leave with a whole back pack or the fighter's armor.

And if the rogue tries to make a spot/sense motive check to see who's doing this, just answer everyone seems to be looking suspiciously at them. So they'll either just suck it up or raze the town... at which point you can get the king and his guards involved.

(edited for spacing issues so it doesn't look like one big block of text)

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) is why that won't work.

Diamondeye
2007-05-30, 10:39 AM
Give the commoners the sympathy of a powerful church that (for whatever reason) objects to the King's behavior.

Maybe there are some mid-high level arcane casters around as well that have a beef with His Majesty.

They don't have to be 20th level themselves, but a few in the 14th-18th level range can certainly complicate things for the opposition.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 10:46 AM
Try applying the Mob template in the DMG-II.

asqwasqw
2007-05-30, 10:53 AM
Your asking how to kill a near god? Hmm, I suggest running far away. Either that or all of them line together and create the railgun of commoners, firing stones at speed enough to kill the wizard a few miles away.

TheDon
2007-05-30, 10:58 AM
This is why that won't work.



If the mage had a rope trick already learned or something similar

I include that option in the something similar, you can still setup traps at the base of the portal, but as said, it's still going to be very hard to pull it off, and it DOES give you an 8 hour to attack the king with out party interruption

Green Bean
2007-05-30, 11:08 AM
I include that option in the something similar, you can still setup traps at the base of the portal, but as said, it's still going to be very hard to pull it off, and it DOES give you an 8 hour to attack the king with out party interruption

The MMM's entrance is invisible, and seeing as the king is a wizard, he'd be able to use it too. Daytime: Reign of Terror, Nightime: invisible mansion.

Quietus
2007-05-30, 11:08 AM
I happen to like the idea of firing hundreds of poison-tipped arrows. At LEAST one of the "commoners" will have some ranks in craft (poisonmaking), and others will have Survival to track down the raw materials. Wizards aren't known for their fort saves; If we assume level 20, that's what, 6 base, +3 from a 16 con or so, +5 from a cloak of resistance... that's 14. Pretty respectable, but even the lowest end con damage poison will have a chance of getting that nat 1, and each time they fail vs the poison, it becomes harder to resist the next.

Then fire your 800 arrows. Odds are around 40 will hit by virtue of natural 20's, And in the first half of those, one of them will end up with a nat 1 on the wizard's save. That drops his con, which increases the odds of rolling low enough to fail the next.

Of course, it was eight THOUSAND arrows mentioned before, not eight hundred, wasn't it? Well, the margin of failure there just got smaller. Even if they all need to ready an action to fire when they detect signs of spellcasting from <that direction>, where the wizard is flying, invisible. Sure, it sucks that so many will miss, but when you are firing a massive hail of arrows, so what? It's basically treated as an area attack, then.

elliott20
2007-05-30, 11:23 AM
the easiest way for commoners to take on the 20th level king would be to become adventurers themselves.

Thrawn183
2007-05-30, 06:43 PM
Am I the only one who reads the DMG!? OK, only-half-serious, knee-jerk reaction aside.

There are levels for the commoners for a reason. If you think in an entire kingdom there aren't going to be a good number of high level commoners... just wait till that commoner 20 out grapples you. It's already been shown on the WotC forums that Commoners make a decent amount of dough at only 2nd level. You bet they can afford to equip their high level commoners.

This one goes straight to the commoners.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 07:03 PM
I happen to like the idea of firing hundreds of poison-tipped arrows. At LEAST one of the "commoners" will have some ranks in craft (poisonmaking), and others will have Survival to track down the raw materials. Wizards aren't known for their fort saves; If we assume level 20, that's what, 6 base, +3 from a 16 con or so, +5 from a cloak of resistance... that's 14. Pretty respectable, but even the lowest end con damage poison will have a chance of getting that nat 1, and each time they fail vs the poison, it becomes harder to resist the next.

Then fire your 800 arrows. Odds are around 40 will hit by virtue of natural 20's, And in the first half of those, one of them will end up with a nat 1 on the wizard's save. That drops his con, which increases the odds of rolling low enough to fail the next.

Of course, it was eight THOUSAND arrows mentioned before, not eight hundred, wasn't it? Well, the margin of failure there just got smaller. Even if they all need to ready an action to fire when they detect signs of spellcasting from <that direction>, where the wizard is flying, invisible. Sure, it sucks that so many will miss, but when you are firing a massive hail of arrows, so what? It's basically treated as an area attack, then.

Four words: quickened protection from arrows.

kemmotar
2007-05-30, 08:02 PM
Rome and the french revolution was mentioned...the many weak against the few strong...At that time the only difference between the weak and the strong was the weapons and the armor and in the french revolution it was pretty much nothing...I would've suggested starve them...but then again create food and water from an epic cleric could feed the rest of the commoners too...Also, assuming that the epic party needs to camp out, they have free food and lodging...on the other hand the 8000 commoners need 1) a place to stay so they don't get eaten by dire rats 2)food to feed 8000 people 3) to hide from the PCs while following them...Thus it is impossible for the commoners to wait and hide until they can exploit a weakness, that is if they can...Also 8000 people would need 200.000 square feet...max range is 120 ft with a composite greatbow...so no go on the 8000 people firing one shot.

Also one major difference between an 18 level wizard and a level 20+ wizard is epic spells and one epic feat, if not more...there is an epic spell that can create a small volcano. Cast that in the middle of the enemy town and that's that...no more town or commoners...

Also the PCs are not going to be weak...they are level 20 for a reason unlike the random NPC epic wizard. They are PCs...they have cheese feats and prestige classes, they abuse spell effects and create combinations of feats. one frenzy berserker can reach the speed of light by cleaving about 8000 commoners in one round without even charging...so can the cleric for that matter if he has great cleave...

It's kinda like hercule vs songoku (if you saw dragonball:smallbiggrin: )
Powerful human doesn't stand a chance against someone who is superhuman...i mean...even timestop+mass dominate person is fine...you then just sit around and watch the stupid commoners kill each other...you can even make them shout: " ave (name of PC) mortueris te salutent" for the gladiator effect...when you're bored just use your talisman of the sphere to finish the job while you fly high above with your protection from arrows and laugh at the stupid commoners...(talisman of the sphere...the one that controls the sphere of ultimate destruction...yes that's the one..)

No gates, no epic spells, no cheese....

The only thing that can beat these PCs is actually level 5 and is called pun pun...it's just a level 5 kobold:smalltongue: how much would his/her services cost anyway?

goat
2007-05-30, 08:10 PM
The commoners are revolting for a reason right? Probably some social injustice or another.

So, all they need to do is get the word out and wait for some equally high level heroic types who agree with their position to hear about it, and boom, a bit of a fight later, dead 4 person party, dead wizard.

The commoners probably won't get any loot, half the landscape might have been torn asunder by the battle, but they'll be free.

And they might get left a few "low level" bits nobody else is interested in. Probably still worth more than their combined yearly income.

goat
2007-05-30, 08:16 PM
Also 8000 people would need 200.000 square feet...max range is 120 ft with a composite greatbow...so no go on the 8000 people firing one shot.

Actually, you can shoot up to 10 times the range increment, just at a -2 penalty for each full range increment exceeded. As a natural 20 always hits, and it's probably going to take a natural 20 to hit anyway, it makes little difference.

Dausuul
2007-05-30, 08:31 PM
Four words: quickened protection from arrows.

Four more words: 100 hit point cap.

PirateMonk
2007-05-30, 08:39 PM
The only thing that can beat these PCs is actually level 5 and is called pun pun...it's just a level 5 kobold:smalltongue: how much would his/her services cost anyway?

That idea was actually discussed in the Pun Pun thread. Basically, a kobold village pools its wealth to buy a Metamorphosis item, and hire a level 2 or 3 UMD specialist to activate and spread omnipotence.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 08:47 PM
Four more words: 100 hit point cap.

And a long bow deals 1d8 points of damage. Due to the opponents being commoners, this means that they probably won't have composites (and if they do, the bonus is going to be negligible).

Using the odds presented above, 40 arrows will hit on a natural 20. These arrows will deal on average 4.5 damage. We'll give them the benefit of the doubt and call it 5 damage.

5*40=200. Half of the arrows have now been completely negated. Coupled with the fact that injury poisons don't poison their targets if they fail to overcome DR, entirely half of the offensive maneuver presented has been negated with a single casting of a 2nd level spell.

Dausuul
2007-05-30, 08:54 PM
And a long bow deals 1d8 points of damage. Due to the opponents being commoners, this means that they probably won't have composites (and if they do, the bonus is going to be negligible).

Using the odds presented above, 40 arrows will hit on a natural 20. These arrows will deal on average 4.5 damage. We'll give them the benefit of the doubt and call it 5 damage.

5*40=200. Half of the arrows have now been completely negated. Coupled with the fact that injury poisons don't poison their targets if they fail to overcome DR, entirely half of the offensive maneuver presented has been negated with a single casting of a 2nd level spell.

Ahem. 8,000 divided by 20 is 400 arrows that hit, not 40. 400 * 4.5 = 1800. Disregarding the crits, that's 1700 points of damage the wizard just suffered.

Sure, there are other counters, like wind wall, but protection from arrows does not cut it against eight thousand archers.

13_CBS
2007-05-30, 09:00 PM
Wait, if the King was a level 20 wizard, couldn't he just make himself a lich and thwart any "let's wait for the wizard to die" attempts?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 09:01 PM
Ahem. 8,000 divided by 20 is 400 arrows that hit, not 40. 400 * 4.5 = 1800. Disregarding the crits, that's 1700 points of damage the wizard just suffered.

Sure, there are other counters, like wind wall, but protection from arrows does not cut it against eight thousand archers.

The passage I quoted said "800", but okay.

There are plenty of other options. Wind Wall, like you mentioned, or a Resilient Sphere (or a Telekinetic Sphere!). Even Mass Blindness/Deafness, Obscuring Mist, Solid Fog, Wall of Force...

One or any of those spells will cut the incoming arrows significantly (in some cases, such as Resilient Sphere, totally).

Arbitrarity
2007-05-30, 09:01 PM
Greater mirror image. Wind wall :P.

IOTSOV :smallwink:

Persistant shapechanged a la mature adult Red dragon. Frightful prescence. DR 10/magic.

So, 8000 commoners, 20 crits, for 3d8 ea, 70 damage. Fly overhead.

Wait... persistant shapechange? (evilly thinks about incantatrix)

Core only, no PrC's? Fine. Contingency.

Kemper Boyd
2007-05-30, 09:02 PM
If enough commoners revolt, they win, period. A king without people to rule over is not a king, he's just a guy in a funny hat. The commoners might try to resist with violence a couple of times, but if that isn't working, they might pull a Ghandi. And then they win.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 09:05 PM
If enough commoners revolt, they win, period. A king without people to rule over is not a king, he's just a guy in a funny hat. The commoners might try to resist with violence a couple of times, but if that isn't working, they might pull a Ghandi. And then they win.

When your leadership can kill you and then raise you as their zombie puppet, nonviolent resistance sort of loses its punch.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-30, 09:07 PM
IDEA!

Our friend: Diplomancer, the bard!

*Cheers ensue*

Everyone's his friend! In fact, they're fanatic about him! He's a great guy!

Now, to boost Diplomacy to 150....

Hmmmm.... (http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-371519.html)

13_CBS
2007-05-30, 09:10 PM
When your leadership can kill you and then raise you as their zombie puppet, nonviolent resistance sort of loses its punch.

One would imagine, though, that a king would want to rule over living subjects, not dead ones.

But has no one yet thought of the king becoming a lich?

PMDM
2007-05-30, 09:50 PM
O.K. Maybe I didn't express the terms well enough.
The commoners can't ask for help. That's too easy. The commoners can take on every adventurer one by one. You have unlimited resources. The adventurers are defending a king, but they all have the leadership ability. It's legal to create trechory within the ranks, that's not helping. Finally, I'm allowing all of the NPC classes into the ranks. Including a arcane based adapt, along with a devine one.

F.L.
2007-05-30, 10:41 PM
You can't great cleave all the commoners. After about 20, you're shooting for a critical miss, which invalidates all subsequent attacks in the round. As for diplomancy, you just have the hundreds of commoners do cheese on the order of the wizard: Aid another on the skill check, anyone? 800 commoners is probably a +800 on the check, assuming ~50% can help the peasant diplomat. If you require that the commoners be close by to help, that's what grapple is for, to make a 800 peasant ball in a single square.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-31, 12:31 AM
So do you want us to play the role of the level 20 adventurers or of the revolting commoners?

Because if you want us to protect the king, its child's play.

And what books are allowed?

Sleep in a MMM cast from inside a permanent Prismatic Sphere that is itself located inside a permanent mage's sanctum.

The King can now rest in total safety.

Give him a Ring of Sustenance and he now never needs to eat.

Cast an extended Stoneskin each morning before leaving the sanctum (for 6 hours and 45 minutes of protection). Also cast protection from arrows before leaving.

Extend a Shapechagne with a greater rod and now the king can get a full heal as a free action. Not to mention turning into any number of useful forms.

A Helm of Telepathy allows him to know the thoughts of anyone within range. And he can't be lied to by them.

This is just the simple stuff.

PMDM
2007-05-31, 08:37 PM
You're supposed to help the commoners. How few commoners can you use to kill 1 20th level adventurer? And can it work for all core classes? Core only. The diplomacy and polymorphing houserules from this site are in.

What's the smallest number you can do?\

Also, the adventurer has a the leadership ability, so he has a boot load of followers, and a high level cohort.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-31, 08:46 PM
The commoners can't win if against any half way competent wizard (which he should be if running a country).

The only way they stand a chance is by hiring outside help, and hope they can outbid the king.

PMDM
2007-05-31, 11:00 PM
O.K. So the task is immpossible. I still don't see how a million commoners can't win by pure numbers.

Foolosophy
2007-05-31, 11:58 PM
O.K. So the task is immpossible. I still don't see how a million commoners can't win by pure numbers.

Scenario 1: BAMF! 10 000 000 commoners spontaneously blink into existence...wizard flees, strikes back later

Scenario 2: you have a realistic build up...wizards intervenes before there are even 500 angry commoners

Funkyodor
2007-06-01, 02:47 AM
To put skills like Profession Lawyer and Profession Mob Boss to good use. Commoners frame PC with evidence that the PC is gonna overthrow the King (Good old fasioned planting evidence, recorded conversations, and bribing/blackmailing his followers). So the King kicks the PC out and *Bamf*, the Commoners are free to try and revolt without PC interference. They can make the plot even more convoluted by leading that PC to feel that it was another lvl 20 PC that framed him, not the lvl 2 cook and lvl 4 butler. That might make the PC's battle it out and the 'innocent' peasants can watch and bet on who will win.

The best movie I've seen which shows how modern day peons can overthow the mighty was in the Incredibles. Sue 'em to death.

EDIT: Direct confilict plays to the PC's strength. Come at them sideways instead.

Green Bean
2007-06-01, 02:53 AM
To put skills like Profession Lawyer and Profession Mob Boss to good use. Commoners frame PC with evidence that the PC is gonna overthrow the King (Good old fasioned planting evidence, recorded conversations, and bribing/blackmailing his followers). So the King kicks the PC out and *Bamf*, the Commoners are free to try and revolt without PC interference. They can make the plot even more convoluted by leading that PC to feel that it was another lvl 20 PC that framed him, not the lvl 2 cook and lvl 4 butler. That might make the PC's battle it out and the 'innocent' peasants can watch and bet on who will win.

The best movie I've seen which shows how modern day peons can overthow the mighty was in the Incredibles. Sue 'em to death.

That plan would work if wizards didn't know a second level spell allowing them read people's minds. Also, the legal system doesn't really work unless either the PCs have a particularly strong desire to follow the law, or the court has some way to enforce their rules against what are essentially demi-gods.

The only plan I could see working is hoping the wizards were a bit cheesy and started out venerable, then just waiting until they drop dead.

Vik
2007-06-01, 06:23 AM
When your leadership can kill you and then raise you as their zombie puppet, nonviolent resistance sort of loses its punch.Zombies have no skills, and a wizard can control only a few HD of zombies - less than 100 zombies. So it's not such a good idea for him to kill everyone if he wants a kingdom.

TranquilRage
2007-06-01, 10:35 AM
Remember remember the 5th of November.
Gunpowder treason and plot.

Fill inn basement and gunpowder barrels, have the people who are in on the plot not talk or look at the NPCs, they could be discreetly unavailable. Hell they might not even care about the collateral. then BOOM!

20D6? (Average70) 30? (Average 105) 40?! (Average 140)
Reflex save? You were asleep!

Then afterwars they get to look forward to exciting games of ....

Escape the burning building
Stop the spell books burning
Time trial armour equipping
Find that sword

PMDM
2007-06-01, 10:43 AM
That seems to work preety well, but it still doesn't solve the problem that the PCs would probably catch onto the people's plot before it happens.

Mr Horse
2007-06-01, 11:01 AM
I'm really surprised at the amount of people in here who just don't seem to use the diplomacy and bluff skills at all! Some of these suggestions are simply inane and make for extremely BAD storytelling. D&D and roleplaying isn't supposed to be about "poof, wizard wins!" or "poof, commoners win!", there's supposed to be meaning and involving stories underlying each campaign setting. Or at least, that would be good DM'ing.

Firstly, guys, you're not going to get the wizard king into a situation where 8000 archers can shoot him to death, EVER. Forget about the mob, it's not going to happen (and be succesful, at least). There's no way in hell you can get the ENTIRE population to revolt and cause havoc through the streets all the way up to the palace at the SAME TIME without the wizard noticing and being prepared for it way ahead of time - having enough time to cast enough mind-altering and subtle balance-tipping spells for the revolt to break apart before they even reach sight of the palace court yard.

Secondly, the idea was (as far as I can tell) to use core NPCs ONLY. No adventurers, no PCs. I'd go so far as to allow a COUPLE of level dipping into a PC class or two, but no more. True adventurers are supposed to be few and far in between, high to epic level PCs even more so. The fact that an evil level 20 wizard became king is an epic tale, most likely involving all kinds of treachery, murder and intrigue (political or otherwise), as well as a plethora of solid adventuring, in and of itself.

Now, what you need to do in political situations like this is, like with all political situations, if they are to be won - use politics! And a whole lot of deception.
The king is highly likely to already be aware of his people's discontent, unless he's extremely daft and eccentric (VERY low WIS - like 6 or 7), and thus be distrustful of his subjects.

Now, the king, no matter how damn intelligent he is, is going to need advisors. And he's going to need a court. Most likely, since he's an evil SOB, he'll have at least one infernal or other evil outsider advisor in his court.
But he's ALSO likely to employ at least a couple of mortals/primers as advisors, for various "mortal affairs" such as treasurer/finances, the legal system, education, infrastructure, and, most importantly to us, directly dealing with the population of the kingdom and maintaining relative stability. These mortal advisors are also likely to be functioning members of the society which they help govern, and most likely nobles.

So, the people and the nobles that sympathise with the growing (but still not widespread) rebellion secretly sponsor an Expert (either pureclass or multiclassed for optimisation to this specific task) to gain so much experience that he has an extraordinary rank in diplomacy and bluff. A level 15 - 20 Expert should be able to pull this off.

If they aren't already, the Expert become a reknowned member of society, and more importantly, slowly but steadily become known as a staunch supporter of the king and his rule.

Eventually, they'll gain the favour of the king, and will over the course of half a year sweet-talk the king into also giving them his trust. The details of how this is done can vary depending on a number of factors, such as the gender, age and race of the Expert. Now, for the sake of convenience, I'm just going to assume the Expert is male and either human, half-elf or a race that the king is either neutral towards or likes.

The Expert will, either during the course of those 6 months, or simply after gaining the king's trust, petition to join the king's court as one of the mortal advisors that only deal with the so-called mortal affairs.

The Expert will win this position with a little help from a few 10 - epic level adepts and acolytes, which a kingdom as huge as to have an epic level king is bound to also eventually count among its numbers.

The way he'll get the position can vary from either simply convincing the king through subtle sales marketing that the court needs a PR advisor (if it doesn't already have one) - and simply awarded the job - to framing, assassinating or convincing the current PR advisor to step down and letting the Expert be appointed the new one.

The Expert then slowly over the course of another half a year, possibly more (as rushing it will only ruin it), mislead and misguide the king and the other members of the court (yes, even the Outsiders, though he'll most likely need some extra high level buffs and magics for that to work), into believing the public opinion of the king's rule is in a much better state than it is, while slowly coercing and convincing the part of the population that still sympathises with the king. He'll probably also publically appear to be one of the fiercest enemies of the rebellion, issuing arrest warrants himself if possible, and advising the king and the other members of the court, to crack down on the enemies of the state as hard as possible.
He'll also work at generating a sense of paranoia within the court and with the king - the rebel faction is getting desperate, as the king is winning the favour of the public back again, and more and more likely to attempt assassination of court members, as well as the king himself - possibly even by infiltrating the court!
Eventually, the court members will grow distrustful of one another, suspecting each other of treason, and fearing the king's wrath if he mistakes them for traitors as well. The only person who seemingly has his stuff together and isn't suspected of a thing other than the utmost loyalty to the king and court, is our dear friend, The Expert.

Anyone who does manage to roll several natural 20s on trying to figure out just what the hell is going on, can trust NO ONE with what he thinks he knows, and The Expert is more than likely to find out that he's in danger. Any time this happens, The Expert will simply frame the court member in question and have them executed for high treason. If there are any other court members that eventually sympathise with the rebellion, The Expert will know about it through his network both on the outside and the inside, and will do everything in his power to protect them.

Eventually the court will have become so isolated from the outside world, only relying on the information The Expert feeds them, that he can have the court members replaced one by one, or convince each of them that overthrowing the king and taking power for themselves is the proper course of action.

If he can, he'll also have the Outsiders dismissed and replaced by mortals that are easier to manipulate, simply by convincing the king that it's better this way.

As the months pass, the king experiences assassination attempts galore, all from assassins with different allegiances. Nothing is certain, except that The Expert is the only friend the king has left. Expert is appointed chief advisor to the court, and staging assassination attempts for himself, eventually let taken in by the king to the king's private and personal sanctum, so that he can be protected from the king's many enemies.

The Expert studies the king's magical defenses well, and informs the acolytes and adepts of anything he discovers. Eventually, the king (yes, the king, not his damned clone) is found poisoned and dead in a pool of blood, with several stab wounds all over his body.

The court is lynched. The Expert is appointed king (or president, prime minister, emperor, god, Avatar of god, Messiah, whatever).

And now a new Expert will have to be trained by new, growing rebellion. ;)

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-01, 01:45 PM
The Helm of Telepathy means that the king can't be bluffed. Ever.

We will assume a level 20 wizard with max Int who is a venerable human. Int is 36.

We will assume a base wisdom of 10 with a +5 tome and a +6 item. So 24 Wisdom.

Same for Charisma.

Well we have this king who is pretty much the smartest person in the kingdom, in addition to being one of the 5 wisest and 5 most charismatic.

He will have a vast spy network and be playing his non dominated advisor's off against eachother. He will never be in a situation where 8,000 commoners can attack him.

He will sleep inside a MMM that is inside a permanent Prismatic Sphere that is inside a permanent Mage's Sanctum. You could detonate a nova bomb right on top of where the MMM's entrance was and it wouldn't affect the king at all.

PMDM
2007-06-01, 01:55 PM
It's a good plan, but it requires a high ranking NPC. Can we keep the levels as close to 1 as possible?

Diggorian
2007-06-01, 02:13 PM
Been following the thread for a while.

Stealth against a completely unawares Wizard is about the only way I can see it happening. A venerable wizard being coup-de-graced in his sleep by one of his favored concubines swayed by the rebellion.

If the wizard is at all cautious it wont work.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-01, 03:27 PM
Venerable human....
concubine?!

It burns us! It burns us!

And I gotta admit, reading people's minds is a handy thing, as a general rule, against treachery. So it totally restructuring their personalities.

Thoughtbot360
2007-06-01, 03:47 PM
Even millions and millions don't stand a chance.

Shapechange. It gets the wizard a full heal every round, a breath weapon that will kill every commoner it hits (refreshed every round), he can fly, he gets SR, and DR that the commoners can't beat.

About a round before it wares off cast MMM and go and hang out until you get spells back. Repeat until no commoners are left.

Or use greater draconic ally from Spell Compendium and just higher a dozen dragons to work for you.

And those are without cheese.

Yeah, low-level characters don't stand a chance (and come on, they're commoners! I suppose they'll be expected to bypass the wizards magical-enchanced AC with their superior BAB? Or survive the save-or-lose spells with their awesome saving throws?)

This is why I play around with the idea of what would D&D look like if some things (particularly huge, indestructible monsters and high-level spells that transform you into a huge indestructible monster) were left out. Would the commoners stand a chance? I mean, even if the average soldiers of the world are 10th level, then were do 1st level monsters fit in and why aren't they exterminated (or high level themselves!? If goblinoids fight amongst themselves so much, why are they such wimps when the PCs enter the first dungeon at 1st level?) If magic is "just another job" then why is it that it just takes 1 20th-level wizard to put down any commoner revolution? Thats more than I ever heard of any blacksmith or merchant or computer programmer accomplishing.

(Speaking of Wizards, mob justice banning material components won't work, at least not entirely, because a combination of the Eschew materials feat and making the monsters you don't kill into slaves how mine for the diamonds and silver and whatnot will lead up to an epic battle where even a mid-level wizard is likely to win. But, that would be an exciting evil.....-ish campaign. Now get back to work, kobolds, or I shall sic the Duskblade on you! Kobolds: *screaming like lil' girls*EEEEEEEEEEEKKK!!!)

blacksabre
2007-06-01, 03:57 PM
It all depends on how devoted the commoners are to the cause
gorilla warfare, martyrdom
keep the players on edge, not knowing where the next attack will come from


watch the news..

Seffbasilisk
2007-06-01, 04:05 PM
Guerilla warfare would be a good tactic, if it weren't for the MMM.

Simple solution? Pray to the Gods.

The Gods draw power from believers in a large number of settings. If that is true, then have a charismatic commoner, and have everyone put enough faith in him that he ascends to Godhood. Now the other gods have an upstart to quash, now they can continually do this, or in the infinite wisdom of Gods, can realize if they just make the system better it probably won't happen again.

Gods vs level 20 Wizard king and 4 PCs level 20. Tough fight, but get enough of the pantheon on your side...

Thoughtbot360
2007-06-01, 04:58 PM
If enough commoners revolt, they win, period. A king without people to rule over is not a king, he's just a guy in a funny hat. The commoners might try to resist with violence a couple of times, but if that isn't working, they might pull a Ghandi. And then they win.

The funny thing is, what business does a Wizard have being king in the first place? I mean a 20th level Wizard IS his own army, artillery, natural resources, workforce and energy reserves, all rolled up in one. He might run out of spells per day, and need some help there, but he shouldn't have to oppress anyone (except for expensive material components. :smallannoyed: But even then, a Dominated burrowing monster can get any number of gems the Wizard wants. And....I'm not sure that a Sorcerer, on the other hand, really needs any material components for any spell because his spells are "innate". A Wizard and Sorcerer might actually make a pretty good team and support each other in the most hostile environments....although there's still the matter of what to do about starvation and injury...)


Actually, while I'm musing over this, imagine if the King was a 20th level Commoner (or Expert or Aristocrat) and the peasants were 1st level PC Caster classes! Keeping farmers with no skills in abject poverty so they'll work cheap is easy. Keeping farmers that know (even a little) magic is much harder. And a swarm of summon monster/summon nature's ally spells vs. a man whose one step removed from the god of (chortle) Commoners (as per the class) is much sillier. Actually, even a 20th level Wizard might have trouble with such a population, not for the spells they cast on the wizard but by meddling with 1st-3rd level staff of his castle (even if they are casters themselves, complete with good will saves, 4 1st level wizards ambush-casting the same spell at the same person has the law of averages in their favor.) Charm Person on captain of the guards, Hide from Animals on the stable boy (they cannot hear, see, or smell the stable boy now, and if the stable boy touches a horse, it will freak out), Disguise Self to look like the master chef you just Color-Sprayed and locked in the closet (Ex-lax in the brownies technically isn't a poison so that ring does him no good), Sanctuary on the political prisoner tied up in the torture chamber (five minutes later we have one very exhausted and very confused interrogator), Detect Evil/Law/maybe even Good on anyone you think is a snitch who's going to report your plans to Ex-lax the royal brownies to the King, Detect Secret Doors lets peasants probe from the King's treasury room and steal the magic items he's likely hoarded over the years, and of course the threat of countless magic missiles and the fact that the King's Shield spell has a 20 minute duration and only protects himself. Heck, this might not even be a revolution, just some juvenile delinquents and other pranksters (being King of the Gnomes must be hard work, lord knows it can't be good for your bowels, too much ex-lax) and other disagreeable people going after the king just because they can. That poor 20th level wizard:smallfrown:!

*and then the forum goes silent, because saying "that poor 20th level wizard" is the darkest sign of the apocalypse.*

Arbitrarity
2007-06-01, 04:58 PM
A god, vs a non-epic wizard... Hm. 8 million commoners.

Ok, time to stat out Banjo: God of commoners!


Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.



Ok, so 8 million commoners, means 16 DivR.

Banjo: Commoner 20, DivR 16.

Str: 15
Dex:13
Con: 19
Int: 18
Wis: 17
Cha: 30

Elite array, +6 cloak of charisma, +4 tome of leadership and influence (what he spent his 200K RWT on.) All scores have +5 inherent bonus, from use of alter reality.

HP: 160.
60 ft move walk.
AC: 36 (10 +1 dex +16 DivR +10 CHA)
BAB: 10
Attack: Quarterstaff +28, 8 damage.
Saves: N/a, according to text, auto sucess.

Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.


Fine, Fort: 26 Ref: 23 Will:25
Immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form.
Not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.
Immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immune to electricity, cold, and acid.
Immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.
Immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.
DR 30/epic.
Fire resistance 21.
SR 68.
Immortal. Immune to death from massive damage.

Assorted stuff in spoiler.

Senses
Deities of rank 1 or higher have incredibly sensitive perception. Such a deity’s senses (including darkvision and low-light vision, if the deity has them) extend out to a radius of one mile per divine rank. Perception is limited to the senses a deity possesses. A deity cannot see through solid objects without using its remote sensing ability or some sort of x-ray vision power.

Remote Sensing Divine
Rank Remote
Locations
1-5 2
6-10 5
11-15 10
16-20 20
Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.

Block Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank.

Portfolio
Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence. A deity’s connection to its portfolio gives it a number of powers.

Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

Automatic Actions Divine
Rank Maximum DC for
Automatic Action Free Actions
per Round
1-5 15 2
6-10 20 5
11-15 25 10
16-20 30 20
Automatic Actions
When performing an action within its portfolio, a deity can perform any action as a free action, as long as the check DC is equal to or less than the number on the table below. The number of free actions a deity can perform each round is also determined by the deity’s divine rank.

Create Magic Items Divine Rank Maximum Market Price
1-5 4,500 gp
6-10 30,000 gp
11-15 200,000 gp (any nonartifact)
16-20 No maximum (including artifact)
Create Magic Items
A deity of rank 1 or higher can create magic items related to its portfolio without any requisite item creation feat, provided that the deity possesses all other prerequisites for the item. The maximum item value a deity can create is a function of its divine rank (see table). The item’s cost and creation time remain unchanged, but the deity is free to undertake any activity when not laboring on the item.

If a deity has the item creation feat pertaining to the item it wishes to create, the cost (in gold and XP) and creation times are halved.

Divine Aura Divine Rank Divine Aura Size
1-5 10 ft./rank
6-10 100 ft./rank
11-15 100 ft./rank
16-20 1 mile/rank
Divine Aura
The mere presence of a deity of rank 1 or higher can deeply affect mortals and beings of lower divine rank. All divine aura effects are mind-affecting, extraordinary abilities. Mortals and other deities of lower rank can resist the aura’s effects with successful Will saves; the DC is 10 + the deity’s rank + the deity’s Charisma modifier. Deities are immune to the auras of deities of equal or lower rank. Any being who makes a successful saving throw against a deity’s aura power becomes immune to that deity’s aura power for one day. Divine aura is an emanation that extends around the deity in a radius whose size is a function of divine rank. The deity chooses the size of the radius and can change it as a free action. If the deity chooses a radius of 0 feet, its aura power effectively becomes non-functional. When two or more deities’ auras cover the same area, only the aura that belongs to the deity with the highest rank functions. If divine ranks are equal, the auras coexist.

The deity can make its own worshipers, beings of its alignment, or both types of individuals immune to the effect as a free action. The immunity lasts one day or until the deity dismisses it. Once affected by an aura power, creatures remain affected as long as they remain within the aura’s radius. The deity can choose from the following effects each round as a free action.

Daze
Affected beings just stare at the deity in fascination. They can defend themselves normally but can take no actions.

Fright
Affected beings become shaken and suffer a -2 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks. The merest glance or gesture from the deity makes them frightened, and they flee as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight.

Resolve
The deity’s allies receive a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and checks, while the deity’s foes receive a -4 morale penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks.

Grant Spells
A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.

Spontaneous Casting
A deity of rank 1 or higher who has levels in a divine spellcasting class can spontaneously cast any spell it can grant.

Communication
A deity of rank 1 or higher can understand, speak, and read any language, including nonverbal languages. The deity can speak directly to any beings within one mile of itself per divine rank.

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

Godly Realm Divine
Rank Radius of Control
Outer Plane Material Plane
1-5 100 ft./rank 100 ft./rank
6-10 1 mile 100 ft./rank
11-15 10 miles 100 ft./rank
16-20 100 miles 100 ft./rank
Godly Realm
Each deity of rank 1 or higher has a location that serves as a workplace, personal residence, audience chamber, and sometimes as a retreat or fortress. A deity is at its most powerful within its godly realm. A deity has at least modest control over the environment within its realm, controlling the temperature and minor elements of the environment. The radius of this control is a function of the deity’s rank and whether the realm is located on an Outer Plane or some other plane (including the Material Plane).

Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar. Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech. A demigod or lesser deity can erect buildings and alter the landscape, but must do so through its own labor, through magic, or through its divine powers. A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm. The deity can designate certain locales within the realm where astral links remain intact. Likewise, the deity can block off the realm from planar portals or designate locations where portals are possible. A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities.

In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm.

A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
Change or apply a time trait within the realm.
Apply the limited magic trait to a particular school, domain, or spell descriptor within the area, preventing such spells and spell-like abilities from functioning. The greater deity’s own spells and spell-like abilities are not limited by these restrictions.
Once a deity sets the conditions in its realm, they are permanent, though the deity can change them. As a standard action, the deity can specify a new environmental condition. The change gradually takes effect over the next 10 minutes. Changing astral links, planar traits, or terrain requires more effort, and the deity must labor for a year and a day to change them. During this time, the deity must spend 8 hours a day on the project. During the remaining 16 hours of each day, the deity can perform any action it desires, so long as it remains within the realm. The astral links, planar traits, and terrain remain unchanged until the labor is complete.

Travel
A deity of rank 1 or higher can use greater teleport as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character, except that the deity can transport only itself and up to 100 pounds of objects per divine rank. A deity of rank 6 or higher also can use plane shift as a spell-like ability at will, as the spell cast by a 20th-level character, except that the deity can only transport itself and up to 100 pounds of objects. If the deity has a familiar, personal mount, or personal intelligent weapon, the creature can accompany the deity in any mode of travel if the deity touches it. The creature’s weight counts against the deity’s weight limit.

Familiar
A deity of rank 1 or higher with levels as a sorcerer or a wizard has the ability to treat any creature of a given kind as a familiar, as long as that creature is within a distance of one mile per divine rank of the deity. This special familiar ability only applies to one creature at a time, but the deity can switch between one creature and another instantaneously, as long as the second creature is within range. This special familiar ability does not replace the deity’s ability to have a normal familiar, which could be any kind of eligible creature.



Domains Liberation, Protection, and Travel.
Protection Domain
Granted Power
You can generate a protective ward as a supernatural ability. Grant someone you touch a resistance bonus equal to your cleric level on his or her next saving throw. Activating this power is a standard action. The protective ward is an abjuration effect with a duration of 1 hour that is usable once per day.

Protection Domain Spells
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.
Mind Blank: Subject is immune to mental/emotional magic and scrying.
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.

Liberation Domain
Granted Power
The character gains a +2 morale bonus on all saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.

Liberation Domain Spells
Remove fear
Remove paralysis
Remove curse
Freedom of movement
Break enchantment
Greater dispel magic
Refuge
Mind blank
Freedom

Travel Domain
Granted Powers
For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds).

This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Add Survival to your list of cleric class skills.

Travel Domain Spells
Longstrider: Increases your speed.
Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Fly: Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.
Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
Teleport: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.
Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
Teleport, Greater: As teleport, but no range limit and no off-target arrival.
Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
Astral Projection M: Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.

Salient Divine Abilities:
1:Alter reality.
2: Gift of Life
3: Increased spell resistance.
4: Divine Blast
5: Posess mortal
6:Avatar
7: Life and Death.
8: Mass divine blast.
9:Alter Size
10:Alter form
11:Shift Form
12: Divine Shield
13:Mass divine shield
14:Stuff.
15: Stuff
16: Divine Splendour

No one cares about feats and skills.

:smalltongue:

I wonder why I just did that.

thehothead
2007-06-01, 07:10 PM
Banjo is already a God, and it isn't a very commonery name. You should name it Phil or something.

mauslin
2007-06-01, 08:05 PM
The Helm of Telepathy means that the king can't be bluffed. Ever.


Actually, it is possible. There's a Bluff DC of 100 to disguise surface thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#disguiseSurfaceThoughts).
That's pretty high though.

Another way to get around the Helm is to create someone with multiple personalties. Think the Manchurian Candidate. You brainwash someone to be perfectly loyal to the wizard, until a certain stimulus is met, which causes a subversive personality to arise. The have another that causes the loyal personality to come back.

Have your victim get as close to the king as possible. Since he genuinely is loyal to the king, the Helm will read him as such; hopefully the king will eventually relax and take the victim into his confidence.

Then get your victim alone, and trigger the subversive personality. Give him an item that will create an anti-magic field, explaining what it does. Then trigger the loyal personality, who won't know what the item does, and convince him to carry it around.

Next time the king and the victim are close together, trigger the subversive personality. The subversive personality will then activate the anti-magic field, with the wizard right in the middle of it. Then the victim stabs him, or something, I don't know.

If you can get this to happen when the king is surrounded by commoners (maybe he's giving a speech?), then they can mob him pretty easily.

Since you're relying on brainwashing to do this all, you could even make you victim someone whom the king already trusts, provided you could get at them. You could even make some of the PC's long term followers into a sleeper agent, given opportunity.
You're also not limited to one person, you could have multiple sleeper agents planted. Have one by each PC, with a nasty trick to disable them.

I hope this helps :smallbiggrin:

OzymandiasVolt
2007-06-01, 08:38 PM
What kind of lame level 20 wizard actually has to sleep at night? Or ever? :smallwink:

Mr. Moogle
2007-06-01, 09:19 PM
Suicide bombers that do 6d6 on impact with a reflex save in the tripple didgets. A couple hundred of these and the king is...

[obscure movie reference] ...a little green globule sitting on the drum seat...[obscure movie reference]

We all know that our wizards naturaly have 30 ranks in preform drum, because drummers are magical and you cant convuince me otherwise.:smallcool:

Thoughtbot360
2007-06-02, 12:47 AM
Next time the king and the victim are close together, trigger the subversive personality. The subversive personality will then activate the anti-magic field, with the wizard right in the middle of it. Then the victim stabs him, or something, I don't know.

with 20d4 hit dice? Maybe if you follow one of my *crazy* 1 HD systems, but in D&D as it is, a 20th level wizard is tougher than a 6th level Barbarian (unless his constitution really, really sucks.) Your Manchurian Candidate is going to have to be a Duskblade/Warblade/Barbarian/Fighter with and enchanted knife of (wizard's race) bane and have hella power attack.

Which has the same problem as all the other ideas in which the commoners turn to other characters with PC classes (namely where do these PC classes come from).


What kind of lame level 20 wizard actually has to sleep at night? Or ever? :smallwink:

One that wants to regain his spells so that he ISN'T a level 20 commoner with good will saves?

DSCrankshaw
2007-06-02, 02:26 AM
One that wants to regain his spells so that he ISN'T a level 20 commoner with good will saves?
That does bring up an interesting question. Can a group, using hit-and-run tactics, wage a war of attrition against a wizard? Let's say you shoot an arrow at a wizard. All his contingent spells go off, he casts a few buffs, probably kills the shooter... but his spell effects run out eventually. Even at twentieth level, most of them last somewhere between two and twenty minutes. Now, if his immediate response is to flee the moment he's attacked, then he's gone and you lost your chance. But what if he believes the danger's past? Or better yet, what if you lure him into pursuit, always thinking he has the advantage?

And let's be honest. If you're a wizard-king who doesn't have much to fear from his subjects, are you going to stock up on attack and defense spells every day? Probably not. You'll have a few ready, but for the most part, you'll stock up on spells that make your day easier. The number of useful combat spells you have any given day may not be that great.

It's still a long shot, but if you can get him to expend most of his useful spells before he realizes that he's really in trouble, you might be able to reduce his effectiveness. The biggest problem is that he'll save a teleport or something similar for when he's spent his spells and realizes that the problem hasn't gone away.

Jasdoif
2007-06-02, 02:35 AM
That does bring up an interesting question. Can a group, using hit-and-run tactics, wage a war of attrition against a wizard?In this case, not too likely. A single cast of MMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) gives a level 20 wizard forty hours of respite.

Green Bean
2007-06-02, 05:14 AM
Another way to get around the Helm is to create someone with multiple personalties. Think the Manchurian Candidate. You brainwash someone to be perfectly loyal to the wizard, until a certain stimulus is met, which causes a subversive personality to arise. The have another that causes the loyal personality to come back.


Ironically, there's a RAW way of doing it, but you have to be a high level wizard. :smallbiggrin:

Funkyodor
2007-06-02, 08:47 AM
Helm of Telepathy isn't all that and a bag of chips. It takes 3 rounds to detect surface thoughts if they fail a will save. If they suceed you have to start over. It's a concentration spell so users of the helm can't do much while using the helm, and it's a 60' cone, not 360 deg. all the time.

"Hi simple servant." (Hmm, wonder what he's thinking). *Begins concentrating* (Ok, hes a thinking creature.) '6 seconds later' (Ahh, hes not so smart, push deeper) '6 seconds later' *Failed will save!* (Ahh, what are you thinking!) Servant: I wonder why the chancellor is standing behind the king inspecting his sword, oh well, it must be king stuff. Man this wine looks good...

They removed the greatest items ever out of 3 & 3.5 when they transferred from 2nd edtion. The Lodestone. Instantly 1 ton stone upon command. Combining that with bands of bilarro was pretty effective at taking most bad guys. Now though, that casters can get rid of material, vocal, somatic requirements through the use of feats, don't know. And a good one from 1st edition. The Mind Bar. Immunity to Mind Effect spells and limited Psionic protection. I can't find anything in 3.5 that allows resistance or immunity to mind effecting spells.

Kemper Boyd
2007-06-02, 09:00 AM
In this case, not too likely. A single cast of MMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm) gives a level 20 wizard forty hours of respite.

The problem with MMM is that while the mage sits inside, the commoners outside can act at will. For example, place large vats of acid at the entrance of the MMM. Or burn down his castle.

Ramos
2007-06-02, 09:29 AM
It is pretty much impossible for even 1 million commoners to kill a level 20 wizard if the wizard knows they want to attack him. Why? Let's see:


1) Plane Shift/Teleport: the wizard does not need to remain in the same continent-or even plane of existence-to regain spells.

2) Shapechange; Specter: ohh, look at me, I'm immune to nonmagical stuff and I can kill commoners with a touch in their sleep. Every commoner I kill becomes my undead pet.

3) Create Greater Undead+command undead: feel the power of my spectre minions!

4) Wall of Force/Reverse Gravity: you want to destroy my castle? You have to reach it first (many permanent reverse gravity spells can enable you to build a castle in the skies.

5) Phantom Steed: I am flying out of your foolish meele weapon range. What are you gonna do about that eh?

6) Apocalypse from the Sky: 10d6 points of damage to all commoners (and everything else) within 400 miles. No save.

7) Demand: Hey, commoner leader! The commoner leader of the next village is, in fact, my supporter. I suggest you go kill him and his supporters.

8) Gate: Hey, Balor-thingy? You can go kill as many commoners as you want in my realm. Have some fun, eat their souls. I'm off to check that new succubus "house" Malcanthet built-I'll be back in a week.

JellyPooga
2007-06-02, 09:55 AM
I am wondering why the Commoners are revolting.

An Evil Wizard-King that needs revolting against would have no scruples about killing off peasants by their droves. This would become swiftly apparant in any revolution. Anyone intelligent enough to worry about having a better life would just leave the country rather than try to take on the King and his powerful friends. Without a populace to rule over, is he really a King? If he goes down the 'undead peasants' route, why did he bother with taking over the kingdom in the first place? Why not just kill everyone from the word 'go' and raise them as undead?

A Good Wizard-King is unlikely to seek immortality (it's usually a pass-time reserved for the wicked) so anyone unhappy with his rule has the option of hoping to outlive him (at 20th level, it's likely that the Wizard is at least somewhat older than the average member of the populace). But then, if he's a good King, why would you be unhappy with his rule? He and his powerful PC friends can probably provide every resource the kingdom needs (or make magic items that do the same). The average wealth of the kingdom increases because they don't need to import anything. As such, more menial tasks become obsolete, allowing the peasantry to indulge in things they couldn't before (art, craft, study, etc.). The kingdom becomes somewhat akin to an intellectual paradise. If the King and his friends made magic items to provide for the populace, this could potentially continue indefinitely.

PMDM
2007-06-03, 08:36 PM
So, let's go over what we know. Please keep responding, even if this post isn't on the first page.

1) It has to be quick. The Wizard (or any other core class, for that matter) can't see it coming. Or else he'll prepare defences, that no one can get though.
2) The townsmen have to keep their minds clean. Or else the people will detect their trechory.

With those two points in mind, I think I have a demented, but correct, solution. It's basically The Head of Vecna all over again.

1) Have a small group of commoners start a rumor, in this case, the head of vecna.
2) Have the commoners commit suicide. They then have someone bury them in secret, that person kills himself too, in an undisclosed location.
3) Watch the rumor spread, and pray that the wizard falls for it.

This has endless variations. But it basically involves getting the PCs to kill themselves. It could be a rescue mission, for good PCs who kill themselves for the greater good. More likely, though, we have an evil PC. So you find a way to set up a system for the PC to become more powerful, but it instead kills themselves. One such example would be a Halley's Comet. When the comet comes overhead, anyone who kills themselves come back to life, with ultimate power, or whatever.

The suicide is needed, because the bodies can't be found, or contacted in the afterlife. Better yet, with the Halley's comet routine, the PCs won't use contact the dead, because the commoners shouldn't be dead if their legend is true.

This has many plot holes in it, but that's as close as I can come to having only 1 commoner "kill" virtually anyone.

Damionte
2007-06-03, 09:23 PM
Really. The best way the commoners can get over onthe oppressive PC's is to have faith and get busy. They need to pray to thier gods and hope that thier offspring will rise from amongst them. Become powerful adventurers in thier own rights and overthrow the now apparantly evil PC's.

May take a little time.

Or wait for the PC's to all die off.

PMDM
2007-06-03, 10:49 PM
But one of the main rules is that they can't ask for help, remember?

illyrus
2007-06-03, 11:38 PM
He will sleep inside a MMM that is inside a permanent Prismatic Sphere that is inside a permanent Mage's Sanctum. You could detonate a nova bomb right on top of where the MMM's entrance was and it wouldn't affect the king at all.

This isn't speaking to this specific strategy at all, but rather to this type of defense in general.

In America, there are a decent amount of shootings a day. Many large cities it's quite common to hear of a gun related death every day on the news. Kelvar is a fairly affordable form of protection, but most citizens tend not to wear it to school, work, around the house, etc. It'd be too much of a bother. The same thing for the current President of the U.S.. He'd be much safer if he was in full body armor including a helmet, inside of a bomb shelter 24/7/365.

I would think that part of the fun of living would be actually, you know, having fun. You might not want to be a captive in your own castle, living in a magical box. A cell is still a cell irregardless of how extravagent it is.

I think for a game the king should have some protection, but it would have some logical limit that wouldn't impede his own fun.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-03, 11:45 PM
This isn't speaking to this specific strategy at all, but rather to this type of defense in general.

In America, there are a decent amount of shootings a day. Many large cities it's quite common to hear of a gun related death every day on the news. Kelvar is a fairly affordable form of protection, but most citizens tend not to wear it to school, work, around the house, etc. It'd be too much of a bother. The same thing for the current President of the U.S.. He'd be much safer if he was in full body armor including a helmet, inside of a bomb shelter 24/7/365.

Most citizens are not targets. And most people who are targets do wear body armor (its even becoming common with the criminal element).

The president is very secure. A wizard king can be even more secure while sleeping.


I would think that part of the fun of living would be actually, you know, having fun. You might not want to be a captive in your own castle, living in a magical box. A cell is still a cell irregardless of how extravagent it is.

I think for a game the king should have some protection, but it would have some logical limit that wouldn't impede his own fun.
He just sleeps in there. It doesn't impeded his fun at all.

thehothead
2007-06-04, 12:28 AM
He's a level 20 wizard. Why on god's green earth is he going to be WORRIED enough to sleep in MMM in a PS in a MS?

illyrus
2007-06-04, 12:38 AM
Most citizens are not targets. And most people who are targets do wear body armor (its even becoming common with the criminal element).

The president is very secure. A wizard king can be even more secure while sleeping.


Most people don't realise they're targets until it's too late.

Presidents still get assassinated. There is more than could be done to protect them than there is, but it would impede the way the country functions as well as their own lives too much. The more secure you make someone or something the more you limit it's freedom.



He just sleeps in there. It doesn't impeded his fun at all.

That's why I said my response wasn't to your post specifically, rather just to that line of thinking. If he doesn't stay in there constantly, than the commoners would choose to target him when he is without his "invunerability shield" or else find a way to go around the shield. Target him while he tours the country side, enters an inn, etc.

As for restricting sleeping, it can impede his possible night time activies with the ladies.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-04, 12:48 AM
Most people don't realise they're targets until it's too late.

Most world leaders and important business leaders realize that they are targets.


Presidents still get assassinated. There is more than could be done to protect them than there is, but it would impede the way the country functions as well as their own lives too much. The more secure you make someone or something the more you limit it's freedom.

Agreed. But whens the last time a world leader was assassinated?


That's why I said my response wasn't to your post specifically, rather just to that line of thinking. If he doesn't stay in there constantly, than the commoners would choose to target him when he is without his "invunerability shield" or else find a way to go around the shield. Target him while he tours the country side, enters an inn, etc.

But the point is you get 1 shot. And I'm being generous by even giving you that long. No commoner can deal the damage required to kill the wizard in that amount of time. You need thousands of commoners. Any situation where the leader is around thousands of people is one where security will be very tight.


As for restricting sleeping, it can impede his possible night time activies with the ladies.

Dominate person exists for a reason. :smallwink:

illyrus
2007-06-04, 01:24 AM
But whens the last time a world leader was assassinated?


There have been several in the past 5 years of smaller gov'ts and organizations. A few noteworthy enough to make the world news. Assassinations still happen today and will continue to for probably the rest of humanity's existance.



But the point is you get 1 shot. And I'm being generous by even giving you that long. No commoner can deal the damage required to kill the wizard in that amount of time. You need thousands of commoners. Any situation where the leader is around thousands of people is one where security will be very tight.


Huh, what amount of time? The 16 or so hours he's outside his MMM? Furthermore, I didn't know I was playing "Emperor Tippy's Competition to Kill the Wizard-King" where you would need to "give me" any amount of time. My original post is meant to help the OP.




Dominate person exists for a reason. :smallwink:

...Hurray for rape I guess...

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-04, 01:40 AM
There have been several in the past 5 years of smaller gov'ts and organizations. A few noteworthy enough to make the world news. Assassinations still happen today and will continue to for probably the rest of humanity's existance.

None of any first world nation that I know of.


Huh, what amount of time? The 16 or so hours he's outside his MMM? Furthermore, I didn't know I was playing "Emperor Tippy's Competition to Kill the Wizard-King" where you would need to "give me" any amount of time. My original post is meant to help the OP.

If the wizard is being overrun he will teleport away. So you have to kill him before he can act. In 1 round. And this is assuming that the wizard doesn't have a contingent teleport on.

illyrus
2007-06-04, 08:04 AM
None of any first world nation that I know of.


More than likely none of the ones you're thinking of have had a bloody civil war either recently.



If the wizard is being overrun he will teleport away. So you have to kill him before he can act. In 1 round. And this is assuming that the wizard doesn't have a contingent teleport on.

Someone already suggested blowing up the inn he visits. Heck you could bribe the cleric to cast his delay poison at caster level 1 or replace with a fake the item that makes him immune to poison then deliever a poison to him of a type you would think would have the highest success rate and hope he rolls low on his saving throw. And yes those methods have counters just like the original protections have counters. The question becomes whether they would think of them all in a game setting where a player is not reading the assassin's plan.

I still think you could have a game where the PCs are trying to defend the king from a bunch of commoners. If the PCs protect the king halfway well then the commoners lose. If the PCs leave a moderate sized openning then the king would stand a chance to die.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-06-21, 12:01 AM
One that wants to regain his spells so that he ISN'T a level 20 commoner with good will saves?

You're confusing "sleeping" with "resting". He doesn't have to SLEEP to regain his spells. He just has to rest for 8 hours.

Niasen
2007-06-21, 08:07 PM
You know, this is all really interesting and everything, but aren't you all forgetting something a little IMPORTANT about wizards? I mean, I don't know much about them and such, but don't they need COMPONENTS no matter what. Even level 20 ones! That eschew only works on items worth 1gold or less, and most components for attack spells are worth quite a bit more...not to mention a Wizard also needs his Spellbook doesn't he? So its simple to take the wizard out really, if you can get him away from his companions with the higher spot/listen checks. Just steal his components and spellbook away, either by having the pretty girl flatter him and ask to see them or just when he's asleep in the inn and getting that necessary 8 hour rest.

Edit: I just re-read my post, and I sound like the back end of a donkey, yeesh. Sorry about that, looks like I need some 8 hours of sleep:smallyuk: