So what's the next phase?

[137beth]

In panel five of strip 1011, HPoH says

I was still hoping to knock Roy off the board in case we needed the next phase.

I'm guessing that the "next phase" was a contingency plan in the event that Hel lost the vote. Hel knew there was a reasonably high probability of this vote count occuring, since the other gods had voted on this exact issue before. However, she would have known that it is possible one or more of the other gods changed their minds, or that enough pro-world-preserving demigods would show up that the Nos could still win a tie-breaking vote.

Around when strip 1000 came out, I suggested that Roy might win the fight by knocking HPoH out of the building (the same way HPoH knocked Belkar out), nullifying his vote but not destroying him. If that happens, we may get to see the next phase.

The most obvious possibility is that, in lieu of a new world designed by Hel, HPoH will just create as many vampire clerics as possible, starting with the Creed of Stone cleric. However, such a plan lacks the grandiose of Hel's original plan.

A second possibility is that, should both the world and HPoH survive, he will travel to the final gate and destroy it himself. That plan would certainly be a reason for him to want Roy out of the way (aside from the obvious fact that Roy wants to destroy HPoH anyways).

A third possible contingency plan is one suggested before we even learned about the Godsmoot: Hel knows at least as much about the Snarl and the Gates as the Dark One (since she actually lived through the first fight with the Snarl and the construction of the second world, while TDO didn't). Hence, she at least has the knowledge to concoct a ritual comparable to the Dark One's ritual. With her greater knowledge of the Snarl, she might even be able to develop a ritual with lesser requirements than Redcloak's. On the other hand, this scenario may detract from Redcloak and Xykon as the main villains heading in to book seven.

It's also still possible that Roy and/or Belkar will succeed in destroying HPoH here, and we never find out what the next phase is.

[Windscion]

With her greater knowledge of the Snarl, she might even be able to develop a ritual with lesser requirements than Redcloak's.
Hel's knowledge of the Snarl is irrelevant: it is the gates (and thru them, the rifts) which are the targets of the ritual. Gates which are the product of mortal epic magic.

[archon_huskie]

I will grant you that Arcane Magiks are mortal, but Divine Magik is not. Half of the ritual is Divine magik

[Windscion]

I simply meant that the gates were constructed by mortals, using epic magic, as opposed to being created by the gods directly.

As I noted in the Red Means Stop thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20044494&postcount=292) I think the next phase will be the demigod votes, and how HPoH has interfered with same. Roy is likelier than most to cry foul if presented with any evidence of tampering. (HPoO might also object, being both president of the session and priest of a god of wisdom. However, removing her was never an option.)

[Roland Itiative]

I do think the "next phase" is more of a plan B, and that we'll see it when the primary plan eventually fails. Basically, it's just foreshadowing that Hel did not put all her chips in winning the Godsmoot.

And Durkula destroying the last Gate by himself would indeed be a way to achieve the same goal, and a plan where getting rid of Roy beforehand would really help in achieving just that.

As for why the Dark One ritual requires both types of magic, I always assumed that it's because both types were used in creating the Gates to begin with. Dorukan supplied the arcane part, while Lyrian was responsible for the divine half.

[foobar1969]

In #1012, HPoH twirls his moustache and says "I confess that I am very much looking forward to finishing our back-up plan. A plan, I might add, that I could never have devised without your help, Roy."

Then Gonetor sneakily wafts onto the Mechane, probably to steal V's teleport orb. A group of young vampire clerics might enjoy teleporting to the dwarven homeland, whose high priests are conspicuously absent at the moment.

[Bongos]

Similar to above post...

Gontor destroys the ship and steals the orb.

The gods seeing that the heroes have loss their means of success against Xykon destroy the world, or it forces the last voter to destroy the world.

[ZMiles]

Here's what I'm thinking:

If the last guy votes, particularly if he votes no, then the vote is over, the barrier keeping the priests in the Godsmoot goes away, and Hel loses her chance to do anything. So Hel must be relying on that guy not voting until her plan goes off, if nothing else.

So I'm guessing she's made the last demigod unavailable; he's knocked out, tied up, or banished to another plane for a while. The last demigod priest will not be able to vote, trapping everyone there.

In the meantime, the vampire clerics storm the Methane and vamp as many as they can. Then they attack the Godsmoot under the nominal authority of the missing demigod and kill off as many 'no' votes as they can. (This also explains why killing Roy would have been helpful; he could held defend the 'no' priests). The laws of the godsmoot state that the vampire attackers should be killed by the other priests, and maybe the missing demigod takes the blame for this and his priest is killed too, but as long as at least one 'no' vote gets killed, then Hel has her majority again.

***

As for the above idea about the vampires teleporting to the dwarven homelands--I don't think that's likely. Even if the high priests are absent, there's still loads of other priests and warriors that can defend the land. Plus, killing the dwarves in combat just powers up the other gods since Hel won't get their souls. (I suppose they could try to vampirize everyone, but that seems unlikely). And if that was really Hel's plan, she didn't need to wait for the Godsmoot to get this far--she could have had the clerics try it two minutes after the barrier went up. If her Godsmoot plan worked it wouldn't have mattered, and if not she'd get a few more minutes before the High Priests were freed to go home.

But most importantly--Durkula said he wanted to get rid of Roy to help with the backup plan. If the vampires use the orb to teleport to the dwarfish homeland and kill everyone, Roy is totally irrelevant; he has no way to follow them and stop them. So I don't think this is likely.

[SlashDash]

The last demigod is the dwarf wearing blue. He hasn't voted yet.

As for next phase, I said it before, Hel's next bet is to call on Loki's vote here - He said that they should let the mortals try one more time, and if they fail, they can still destroy the world before "You know who" breaks free.
So speeding up the Snarl's release - or at least get the other gods afraid of it should be her next step.

What better way to do that than to help Xykon with his plan? That's how everything started in the first place.

We also know that Redcloak and Xykon are likely to betray each other and that the ritual requires arcane and divine casters and with Xykon's fondness of his undead ilk switching Red Cloak to Durkula would be a good fit.
It would hardly be a surprise if Durkula will run away and join Xykon by kicking Red Cloak out.

Gondor could either go after the orb, or attempt to kill as many of the order as possible so they'll have as little interference in their plan.

[The Pilgrim]

Seize control of the Mechane, vampirizing as much as possible. Then fly to the last Gate and blast it, forcing the Gods to destroy the World.

[Roland Itiative]

Seize control of the Mechane, vampirizing as much as possible. Then fly to the last Gate and blast it, forcing the Gods to destroy the World.
Yeah, I believe in that too.

Though I find it weird how the last demigod representative didn't get to vote on the current comic, implying his vote may somehow be up for grabs. I just can't imagine how vampires in the Mechane could possibly connect to that dwarf's vote.

[War-Wren]

Throw me in the pot of 'Steal teleport orb, and then while Gontor holds up the OotS as long as possible, Durkula travels to Dwarven lands and vamps as many as possible, bringing death a nd destruction as prophesied, before descending on the last gate with an army of Hel's minions, to destroy the gate, unleashing the Snarl, and forcing the Gods to unravel the world, thereby giving Hel what she wanted, just not as cleanly as she would have liked' *gasp for breath* Should have used more punctuation... :smalleek:

Anyhoo, that's my thinking :smallbiggrin:

[foobar1969]

If the last guy votes, particularly if he votes no, then the vote is over, the barrier keeping the priests in the Godsmoot goes away, and Hel loses her chance to do anything. So Hel must be relying on that guy not voting until her plan goes off, if nothing else.
Consensus believes that the last demigod is Forseti, god of law-speakers, who reconciles disputes. If so...

Forseti will arrange a compromise where the gods wait to see if the Order can defend Kraagor's Gate against all attackers. Which means Plan B is for team vampire to steal the teleport orb (on the desk in front of Gonetor) and get there first. Roy suggested buying the orb, and the plan would benefit from Roy's death. This theory fits all the puzzle pieces (so far).



In the meantime, the vampire clerics storm the Methane and vamp as many as they can. Then they attack the Godsmoot under the nominal authority of the missing demigod
Neither the gods nor their high priests would be fooled by that. But more importantly, Malack's Staff is inside the moot hall, so anyone that Gonetor drains will be merely corpses, not insta-vamps.

[foobar1969]

I'm guessing that the "next phase" was a contingency plan in the event that Hel lost the vote.
As of #1013, Ben's scenarios remain consistent with Comic As Written.

[Macros]

I wonder if Hel's backup plan isn't just something as simple as "teleport in, grab someone who voted no, teleport out". We know that the cleric needs to be present for his vote to count, thus removing one in a flash might tip the balance. That kind of action might be too fast for the other clerics to react to the rule transgression, and, since it would be done by Gontor, a supposed neutral, they can't blame Hel for foul play (well, they can,because he didn't spontaneously turn into a vampire, but I guess at this point, Hel is ready to bust out every technicalities in the book).

[Gift Jeraff]

Crashing the Mechane with no survivors.

[Macros]

What would that accomplish?

[brian 333]

It would prevent the OotS from saving the day if the orb is gone and the Mechane damaged. However, with so many high level clerics round, the OotS would have ample opportunity to beg a Wind Walk spell.

[Roland Itiative]

I wonder if Hel's backup plan isn't just something as simple as "teleport in, grab someone who voted no, teleport out". We know that the cleric needs to be present for his vote to count, thus removing one in a flash might tip the balance. That kind of action might be too fast for the other clerics to react to the rule transgression, and, since it would be done by Gontor, a supposed neutral, they can't blame Hel for foul play (well, they can,because he didn't spontaneously turn into a vampire, but I guess at this point, Hel is ready to bust out every technicalities in the book).
I really doubt the "no" gods would take it gracefully. Even if they can't pin down the meddling to Hel, it will be quite obvious one of the "yes" gods is trying to manipulate the vote.

And they probably would be able to point fingers at Hel specifically. The teleporting party would be a vampire cleric who, a few hours ago, was not a vampire, and everyone knows that. There's only one person in the room who could have turned him, this person has a public interest in having the "yes" side win, and he has every reason to have the new vampire as a thrall, not a free spawn. He would need to teleport in and out without anyone recognising him as one of the stone clerics or a vampire for that plan to have the slightest chance of not backfiring on Hel.

And that's assuming it's even possible to teleport into the godsmoot temple. This is just a guess on my part, but I imagine that the same barrier that keeps the clerics from leaving (at least without forfeiting their vote) would prevent scrying or teleporting. The gods wouldn't want anyone to crash or peek into their secret rendezvous.

[Quild]

My supposition is that the plan is something like:
- Steal the teleport orb
- Teleport to dwarven lands (Durkon's home)
- Acquire info about last Gate location (surely some strong monsters that don't belong here have been spotted somewhere close)
- Go to last Gate
- Destroy it
- Have the world undone
- Have Hel new Queen of Northern Pantheon

And it will fail at "destroy it".

[Macros]

Well, as you noticed, it seems to be a rather hasardous plan.

Durkula,of all people, knows that it's likely the Gate is probably curently protected by an epic Lich and a high level High Priest. And if it's not the case, that would be because the defenses of the place are able to hold back those two extremely powerful threats. What chance would have a newborn Gontor fresh out of spells?

Time is not in Hel's favor right now. Sure, the world can still be destroyed if the last Gate falls. But right now, the Gate is fine (if maybe compromised by hostile forces), which gives gods time to think. And I'm willing to bet the first order of the day will be "how can we safely destroy the world without making Hel the supreme being of the universe?"

[Aasimar]

Teleport into a large dwarven city using the orb, and start taking it over as a vampiric stronghold of Hel.

This would either divert the Oots from their goal of stopping Xykon, in order to make them run out of time on saving the world, forcing the Gods to destroy it first and give Hel all those souls, or it would at least set up Hel with her own stronghold of followers and worshipers, if the whole gamble doesn't work out, so at least she's significantly better off than she was.

[Roland Itiative]

Teleport into a large dwarven city using the orb, and start taking it over as a vampiric stronghold of Hel.

This would either divert the Oots from their goal of stopping Xykon, in order to make them run out of time on saving the world, forcing the Gods to destroy it first and give Hel all those souls, or it would at least set up Hel with her own stronghold of followers and worshipers, if the whole gamble doesn't work out, so at least she's significantly better off than she was.

Both ideas clash with each other, though. If Durkula vampirizes a large portion of the dwarven population, and then the world is destroyed, the most likely result is that all those souls will go to Valhalla, as they died fighting vampires.

I mean, there is nothing that indicates that if Durkula gets destroyed, Durkon's soul will go to Hel instead of Thor.

[Aasimar]

Both ideas clash with each other, though. If Durkula vampirizes a large portion of the dwarven population, and then the world is destroyed, the most likely result is that all those souls will go to Valhalla, as they died fighting vampires.

I mean, there is nothing that indicates that if Durkula gets destroyed, Durkon's soul will go to Hel instead of Thor.

Doesn't matter, they wouldn't be converting 10 million dwarves, just taking one city to make a stronghold.

[Olinser]

Well, as you noticed, it seems to be a rather hasardous plan.

Durkula,of all people, knows that it's likely the Gate is probably curently protected by an epic Lich and a high level High Priest. And if it's not the case, that would be because the defenses of the place are able to hold back those two extremely powerful threats. What chance would have a newborn Gontor fresh out of spells?

Time is not in Hel's favor right now. Sure, the world can still be destroyed if the last Gate falls. But right now, the Gate is fine (if maybe compromised by hostile forces), which gives gods time to think. And I'm willing to bet the first order of the day will be "how can we safely destroy the world without making Hel the supreme being of the universe?"

Answer is also incredibly easy.

Dwarven Gods declare war on other gods, they use their godly powers to teleport them to a battlefield, and then each god kills the dwarven followers of other gods. They died in battle and their souls go to their respective deities.

That whole process ought to only take a few minutes. Then they go ahead and destroy the world as planned.

[Domino Quartz]

Answer is also incredibly easy.

Dwarven Gods declare war on other gods, they use their godly powers to teleport them to a battlefield, and then each god kills the dwarven followers of other gods. They died in battle and their souls go to their respective deities.

That whole process ought to only take a few minutes. Then they go ahead and destroy the world as planned.

There are no "Dwarven Gods", only certain Northern Gods which most dwarves and some humans (and probably other races) worship.