[3.5] Assassin vs. PCs

[Thurbane]

Is it reasonable for a DM to use Assassins (as in the PrC) against PCs?

From a story/game PoV, it makes total sense. PCs thwart some evil group or organization enough times, they will be looking for payback, or to take the PCs out of the picture. It's almost an iconic (sub-) plot.

And unless an Assassin pumps his Death Attack out the Wazoo, the PCs should have a pretty good chance of making the required save, and/or detecting the Assassin before he gets his 3 rounds of study in.

But what if they don't?

In a low-mid op group, depending on the mix of classes, the PCs mightn't have good enough perception abilities to notice the Assassin (especially if he bides his time until a party member with poor perception is the only one on watch etc.).

Anyone can botch a saving throw at some point.

Is it fair to have a PC die from one failed save that they didn't see coming?

Is it fair to have to lose a character level, assuming access to Raise Dead?

I'm just not sure if I'm wrapping the players in cotton wool by thinking this way, but I guess if the roles were reversed, I'd be pretty mad to die out of the blue from a failed Spot/Listen check (especially if these aren't class skills) followed by one bad saving throw.

What's the protocol?

Just more of a general question than about my current group explicitly...

Cheers - T

[Seruvius]

Harsh but fair I would say. 3.5 is full of save or suck/die stuff, so the Assassin is just another one in the long list of nasty things one has to deal with.
On the other hand if you don't want it to come completely from the blue there are ways around it. Have a NPC friend/ally let the PC's know that some shadowy figure has been asking about them, or let it be known that these baddies employ proper assassins. Just give them a little bit of warning/foreshadowing so they at least feel like it wasn't dropped on them entirely from out of the blue. I personally would at least let them know of the existence of assassins before dropping one on them.

[Emperor Tippy]

Of course you drop assassins on your PC's. And not just ones with the Assassin class.

Your PC's are either prepared and capable enough to deal with the reasonable consequences of their activities or they aren't, and if they aren't then they die. At which point they either have taken steps to ensure their resurrection, or the player rolls up a new character.

Granted, I'm the kind of DM who has absolutely no problem throwing a flying Wizard with greater invisibility up and a wand of invisible fell drain fireballs at ECL 7 to 10 PC's. What? You can't detect and engage a Wizard flying five hundred feet above you while invisible who is throwing a fireball per round at you? Well then I guess you die.

[Seto]

Granted, I'm the kind of DM who has absolutely no problem throwing a flying Wizard with greater invisibility up and a wand of invisible fell drain fireballs at ECL 7 to 10 PC's. What? You can't detect and engage a Wizard flying five hundred feet above you while invisible who is throwing a fireball per round at you? Well then I guess you die.

Speaking from the other end of the lethality scale, it's true that Assassins, or generally save-or-dies coming out of nowhere, should be very responsibly and cautiously used.

It all depends on your players' expectations and level of preparation. What lethality are they used to ? What kind of punishment are they ready to take ? You mention they're low-mid OP. They're lucky to not have Tippy as a DM, or they'd be miserable. I agree with Seruvius : give them some kind of warning or foreshadowing, so that they're able to take some defensive measures. If they don't, then dropping a death attack is a lot fairer.

[FocusWolf413]

Tippy tells it how it is.

It's important to note that assassins, flying invisible death wizards, etc are no random encounters. Something needs to lead up to them. If they piss off someone with money or power, they should reasonably expect retaliation. If they don't, too bad.

Did they kill a cleric who was spying on the cult of Tharzidun while they eradicated said cult? Of course the Church of the Burning Hate, will send someone to put the party in their place. Did they kill a young adult dragon? It's mommy is going to be PISSED. Did they cheat a devil out of a soul? Assassin Devils are a thing for a reason.

If they die, thems the breaks.

[nedz]

It depends entirely upon the group. I probably wouldn't do this against a bunch of newbies, but against a party which had, say, performed a heist against some mob of gangsters then this would be completely expected.

[Spore]

Is it fair to have a PC die from one failed save that they didn't see coming?

Outcomes of rolls shouldn't be judged if they are fair or not. It is usually important who brought the PC into the situation that requires those rolls. Example:

PC A pissed off an influental and evil noble intentionally. They sic' their assassins onto him, completely with insane stealth checks, sneak attacks and poison covered arrows. The PC has to roll on her perception skill, her fortitude save and tank a good amount of damage. But you cannot generalize the amount of damage, the type (and pricepoint/danger) of the poison because this depends on the PC in question, the assassins hired to kill, or even the intention of killing the PCs (sometimes it is better to intimidate the PCs in order to deter them from you).

PC B was nice and polite to the influental and evil noble. They sic' thugs in order to intimidate him, along with faked letters from a rivaling noble, unleashing unfiltered PC rage upon the poor sap. PC B has to tank a bit of damage, decide if the thugs live or die, and roll Sense Motive/Deceipher Script in order to reveal the mastermind behind this ruse.

Certain actions provoke reactions. D&D has a big safety net with ressurection so PLEASE don't be like most of my DMs in that thex think P&P is only interesting if there is NO possibility of death "because it is sooo unfair".

[ZamielVanWeber]

Unfair is going "You have displeased the epic wizard. You are now dead no save." Sending people loaded up with SoDs can be brutal, but there are ways around them, from jacked up saves to straight immunity. Light Fortification alone can give a PC a chance at surviving a death attack without having to even roll a save, while anything that grants concealment makes the totally immune for the duration of the spell.

A druid or ranger tends to have high Wis and Spot and Listen as class skills and there is a 1st level druid spell that boosts spot checks.

Oh, you can also use tremor sense (while on the ground), blind sight, blind sense, mind sight, and possibly life sight to identify a hidden assassin is there and thus block death attack.

Really unless these are low level PCs they have ways to bypassing an assassin's death attack.

[Seto]

Sending people loaded up with SoDs can be brutal, but there are ways around them, from jacked up saves to straight immunity. Light Fortification alone can give a PC a chance at surviving a death attack without having to even roll a save, while anything that grants concealment makes the totally immune for the duration of the spell.

A druid or ranger tends to have high Wis and Spot and Listen as class skills and there is a 1st level druid spell that boosts spot checks.

Oh, you can also use tremor sense (while on the ground), blind sight, blind sense, mind sight, and possibly life sight to identify a hidden assassin is there and thus block death attack.

Really unless these are low level PCs they have ways to bypassing an assassin's death attack.

Well, yeah, but most or all of them require a measure of preparation, and knowing that an assassin might be coming, unless you're a high-op build based on the premise that "every character should have a way of spontaneously defending against such-and-such".

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, yeah, but most or all of them require a measure of preparation, and knowing that an assassin might be coming, unless you're a high-op build based on the premise that "every character should have a way of spontaneously defending against such-and-such".

A lot of these are just nice to have. Tremore/Life/Blind/Blind/Mind is just an excellent tool. The only time I don't get blindsight on my beguilers is when I get life sense instead.

High Spot and Listen are just valuable assets. One of the commonalities of a lot of my characters is getting my spot and listen to obscene levels.

I admit fortification is going to be rarer, as it requires being a warforged, having 2+ heart spells up, or be actually wearing your armor that happens to be enchanted with it.

Note that any immunity to sneak attack will block death attack although totally negating sneak attack as a player is not easy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you do something that makes people send assassins after you you need to take precautions against assassins.
If you don't do that you're careless and it's your own fault if you die.

I'd certainly adjust the optimization level to the parties general capabilities, but in general all tactics are open to the NPCs.
And a stealthy mundane guy with poisoned weapons that strikes from ambush is valid at all optimization levels.
There's certainly enough defenses against that kind of thing, with spells like Alarm, Rope Trick or Neutralize Poison and stuff like guard dogs, traps and a whole lot of magic items for all classes and price ranges.

Anyone can botch a saving throw at some point.

Is it fair to have a PC die from one failed save that they didn't see coming?

Is it fair to have to lose a character level, assuming access to Raise Dead?
It's part of the game, and there's ways to prevent or mitigate all of those things.
Rerolls are a good investment for any character. Dying because you lack preparation teaches them to be more careful in the future. And being a level behind because of dying is hardly permanent or insurmountable - lower level characters get more XP, so they'll catch up pretty soon. It wouldn't be any fun if there weren't any consequences to messing up.

[elonin]

You can use the paralyze option of that mechanic. Really it depends on the type of game you've been running. Chances are they upset someone who can and will fund an assassin to harass them. Frankly its one of the better parts of Skyrim that if you upset someone they hire mercs to take you out. Personally I'd use a shadow dancer, as it would be easier to trouble a party for a long time with one of those played right. And that is without mentioning the shadow.

[The Viscount]

I second using the assassin's paralyze option. It's still a major negative for a PC if they get hit, and then the assassin can drag them away to somewhere more discreet, but there's the possibility of rescue. The same goes for something like stonedeath assassin, who has a flesh to stone effect instead of death attack.

Note that if you are using death attack, raise dead cannot undo it because it is a death effect. You'll need something stronger, which may influence your decision.

[Pluto!]

Exterminate the brutes.

That said, I take pains to make sure death itself isn't keeping players out of the game for long. If their characters die, I try to keep players playing by providing the means for rezzes, letting those players take over NPCs, run dungeon monsters/enemies or, one time, play as the Paladin's horse.

[Flickerdart]

There's assassins, and then there's interesting assassins. Remember - you're there to entertain. I will just quote myself from a previous thread:


An excellent approach to the assassin type encounter is to use a summoner (druids are great for this). You get the numbers parity you want, and the assassin can carry out his hit while observing from afar, meaning that he can try again after learning the party's strengths and weaknesses. Most importantly, it's too easy to spike-kill a PC in their sleep, and that's no fun for anyone; instead, the classic trope "I want them alive!" works wonders here. Use a three step plan:

Step 1: While the PCs are heading to [destination], they are ambushed by a "random encounter" of environment-appropriate creatures. Summoned creatures disappear when killed, so this will clue them into what's happening (a druid can use charmed animals which don't vanish). Good Spot checks will also reveal a suspicious bird (a familiar, animal companion, or Malphas' eagle) observing the battle - unusual because birds usually flee from loud noises. Now the assassin knows how the PCs fight, and with luck has significantly injured somebody.

Step 2: As soon as the PCs take a rest to patch up from this fight, lay down the groundwork for the final fight. The assassin sneaks into their camp and sabotages key pieces of equipment - replacing the wizard's component pouch with a sack full of angry hornets, pouring sovereign glue into the scabbard of the fighter's sword, poisoning the mounts, etc. Meanwhile, the assassin's minions prepare the terrain ahead (setting up trenches, traps, and similar). Once the assassin's job is done, he intentionally lets himself be noticed and escapes towards the trap. The PCs will undoubtedly give chase, especially if the assassin nicked something important like the wizard's spellbook.

Step 3: The real battle. The party blunders into the trap, their equipment sabotaged, the terrain against them, and the enemy multiplying by the minute as the assassin summons new minions to help. He may or may not even enter the fray himself. Illusions are very helpful here - if there are 10 monsters fighting but it looks like 50 more are on their way from a conveniently far away location, the PCs might just give up right away, which is what the assassin wants. It's very likely that success in this fight means not defeating the enemy but merely escaping, and should give the PCs ample motivation to find the assassin again and beat his face in. Since his strategy relies on ambushes and sabotage, he might not even be very good in a fair fight, which means your PCs will feel vindicated without having to wait a few levels before they can curbstomp him in a sufficiently cathartic manner.

[Curmudgeon]

Note that any immunity to sneak attack will block death attack although totally negating sneak attack as a player is not easy.
Assuming the standard entry into Assassin with Rogue levels, the Rogue/Assassin can still get through 100% Fortification, but it requires a flanking buddy. Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) makes sneak attack still happen vs. the sneak-immune, but only when you flank them (and with ½ the usual dice, which is only relevant if the PC target saves vs. your death attack). Simple Invisibility on the flanking buddy will usually do, because they don't have to attack (at all, really) but just be in position and able to do so at the time of the Assassin's attack.

If you want death attack to have a reasonable chance of happening, you need to pull out all the stops; the ability is quite weak normally. Ability Focus (death attack) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) + Favored in Guild (Dungeon Master's Guilde II, pages 227-228) for Jaezred Chaulssin (City of Wyrmshadows, page 6 — a web enhancement for Dragons of Faerun, available here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a)) + Improved Death Attack [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedDeathAttack) + Assassin's Dagger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#assassinsDagger) will give you +2 +4 +2 +1 = +9 to the DC. You'll need to be an Old Dragonwrought Kobold to qualify for the Epic feat at a lowish level, and adhere loosely to Vhaeraun's tenets (Faiths and Pantheons, pages 113-114). A Kobold Rogue 5/Assassin 4 could have all of this at level 9: Dragonwrought @1, Favored in Guild @3, Ability Focus (death attack) @6, and Improved Death Attack [Epic] @9. With INT 18 (could even be higher; being Old contributes +2) the death attack DC would be 27. If the PC has decent Fortitude saves and rolls high the death attack will still fail, but the attack has got a good chance. The usual weak sauce death attack (INT of 14-15, and no bonuses to this special attack) is doomed to fail unless the target blows their Fortitude save spectacularly.

[Andezzar]

You can use the paralyze option of that mechanic. Really it depends on the type of game you've been running. Chances are they upset someone who can and will fund an assassin to harass them. Frankly its one of the better parts of Skyrim that if you upset someone they hire mercs to take you out. Personally I'd use a shadow dancer, as it would be easier to trouble a party for a long time with one of those played right. And that is without mentioning the shadow.Well strangely those mercs never have high archery skill, paralysis poison and a potion of invisibility or other ways of taking you out in one shot.