Undoing PCs' work?

[Dr TPK]

You think this from DM's or player's perspective, but let's see player's perspective.
You do a mission. You slay all the monsters and beat the BBEG.
Then, later on, the situation happens again. The bad guys manage to "recover" from their blows or maybe they have successors. The guest must be done again.

I have avoided this, but I don't think it has always been a good thing. In my campaign, the PCs destroyed the cults of Asmodeus quite thoroughly. However, one the players has said that he misses the Asmodeus conflict a little. I feel a bit torn with this: They already had a decisive victory over the whole cult and destroyed it to its very core. Should the cult(s) have successors then?

Some time ago the PCs fought in a war that was barely won. I was thinking about having another phase to the war, since I don't feel like they did enough to pacify the area. The war is, however, declared over, and the PCs did do a lot of things to win the war.

[Seto]

Honestly, don't. If they destroyed it thoroughly, there's a reason for it. Negating their work is bad form.

That your players miss the fight against the cult of Asmodeus only means it was epic and entertaining, which is good on you. But now it's time to move on to other challenges and work to make them just as great, but in a different way. (Maybe later, as a filler adventure, make them come up against a former cultist who's trying to avenge the cult, but it shouldn't be anything more than a tribute to nostalgia)

[ZamielVanWeber]

It depends on major part if it makes narrative sense. A war re-sparking could happen, but there are likely to be signs: diplomacy breaking down; increased troop movements near the border; increased production of armaments; etc. The PCs should be given time to react to these signs. If they fail to, or screw it up somehow, the war restarts.

As for the Cult of Asmodeus I can assure you they didn't wipe it out. Juiblex? Sure. Grazz't? Sucks to be him? Dispater, possibly. But we are talking about the servants of one of the keenest minds in the multiverse, someone for whom patience and planning are intrinsic to everything he does. They wiped out most of his cult, sure. But the biggest, nastiest, guys in charge? They were never touched and are even as we speak slowly rebuilding their bases of power. I would recommend giving them a chance to learn more about Asmodeus though, so they can realize why the cult is resurfacing.

[Dr TPK]

It depends on major part if it makes narrative sense. A war re-sparking could happen, but there are likely to be signs: diplomacy breaking down; increased troop movements near the border; increased production of armaments; etc. The PCs should be given time to react to these signs. If they fail to, or screw it up somehow, the war restarts.



About the war: The PCs have travelled for months and I was thinking that the war has just started when they come back. It makes sense chronologically. This is supposed to have shock effect on the players.

[ZamielVanWeber]

About the war: The PCs have travelled for months and I was thinking that the war has just started when they come back. It makes sense chronologically. This is supposed to have shock effect on the players.

In that case I would probably be annoyed as a player. Invalidating their work without warning can cross someone. Also, if they were important to the first war, why wouldn't someone warn them that another one could be gearing up?

Someone may want to correct me, but IIRC wars in medieval times constituted a dramatic drain on resources as peasants were conscripted and lost, planting and harvest times were interfered with, etc. If someone is willing to start a war that quickly they either acquired some crazy new magical weapon or one side is so desperate for a victory they are willing to gamble their destruction even if they win.

[OldTrees1]

Imagine if you would a herd of rabbits. Unimpeded their population would grow to some carrying capacity.

If you went in and killed half of them, the remaining rabbits would start to repopulate. However the repopulation would not be instantaneous nor would it be a full recovery in the first iteration.

If you went in and killed most of them (say all the mature adults), there may or may not be enough breeding pairs left to repopulate. They might recover eventually but they might not.

If you went in and killed all of them, then there would not be any to repopulate.


This "herd of X" model should be the fastest model for antagonists starting to recover from PC action. Circumstances might make the recovery even slower or not happen at all.

[XionUnborn01]

I love the idea of the past coming back to haunt PCs but don't just have the same cult pop up again in the same place. Asmodeus doesn't like his plans being interrupted, so he will very possibly want revenge.

Maybe the leader of the cult was resurrected and given some sort of boost, including the addition of some fiendish feats and maybe a template. He already knows who killed him, so he's just got to find them. Maybe he has some sort of Plot Device alchemical item that can add a fiendish feat or some sort of evil template to people that take it enough times and he's building an even more vile and powerful cult than before to come after the PCs?

[Magikeeper]

Maybe the other devil cults* are worried they're next, and have formed an alliance of sorts? They may even have some round-about support from Asmodeus. That brings back the cult dynamic while making the PCs feel like they did something that truly mattered - they scared the crap out of all of the devil cults!

If they start wiping out all of those cults devil kind will likely start taking.. desperate measures...

As for the war thing, couldn't someone magically contact them? Ask for their opinion on "thing that is happening X". Give them a chance to effect the start of the war (or change the specifics of it). Yeah, it's a still a set back, but at least they can feel like they still matter. Also, try to hint at WHY the war wasn't completed for good last time. Or neon-sign it. ..or even just telling them OOC...

*Actually, maybe have the cults form into two groups at first. That's probably more reasonable and makes the situation a bit different from before.

[daremetoidareyo]

Perhaps we could look at this ecologically.

What service did membership in the cult of asmodeus provide? How does removing this solution affect the original problem?

What forces or systems did the cult of asmodeus keep in check?

That way you can build off of the fall out.

Reasons to join an asmodeus cult:
1.) political expedience
2.) a feeling of belonging
3.) direct accumulation of power (spells, money, influence)
4.) revenge on a world that doesn't serve you (think slaves/peasants, they have no reason to endorse a system that bones them, particularly if their slavery is endorsed by divine-right monarchy)

Forces or systems an asmodeus cult can keep in check:
1.) dopplegangers.
2.) Cults of demogorgon
3.) unstable governance (lawfulness produces social stability)
4.) power to fend off barbarian/cavalier hordes
5.) Slaad anarchist cells devoted to breeding the entire world into themselves.
6.) unjust systems of oppression (it's not just chaotic good anymore)

[Ger. Bessa]

3 Points :

1) About the Asmodeus cult :
Asmodeus is big. He's a Archduke of Hell, a devil that plays at the level of the gods. Wiping his cult at most slows down his plans for the material plane a short time. Have him send a few visions of power/pain/whatever to a few mediums/prophets/dudes, a few devils on recruiting spree and 20% reduction on the cost in soul for any wish granted (cost rounded up to the nearest integer) and the cult start again. As said earlier, if the PC think they dealt with him they don't realize who he really is.

2) About Asmodeus :
You "could" have him act against your PCs, but if what they did really did matter, he's probably gonna be more interested than raging against a bunch of human(oids). After all, at least they are competent or lucky, and either could be useful. You can pretty much organize anything and have the arc words "it's Asmodeus' plan" if you think it'll entertain your players.

3) About the players'wish :
If the players keep talking about it, you could try(trick) to have them telling it to a wish granting monster, and have that wish resurect the cult that would be back with a vengeance. It could either be unrelated or orchestrated by remnants of the cult. And would put the PCs at the center of the plot. Always have the players implicated.

[Broken Crown]

You think this from DM's or player's perspective, but let's see player's perspective.
You do a mission. You slay all the monsters and beat the BBEG.
Then, later on, the situation happens again. The bad guys manage to "recover" from their blows or maybe they have successors. The guest must be done again.

I have avoided this, but I don't think it has always been a good thing. In my campaign, the PCs destroyed the cults of Asmodeus quite thoroughly. However, one the players has said that he misses the Asmodeus conflict a little. I feel a bit torn with this: They already had a decisive victory over the whole cult and destroyed it to its very core. Should the cult(s) have successors then?

I think you're right to be careful with this. If the players have put a lot of time and effort into ending the cult, they could be understandably annoyed if it just came back, undoing all their hard work. That sort of thing can remove a lot of players' sense of agency from the game, and leave them feeling like spectators to a plot which is going to happen regardless of their actions.

On the other hand, it is quite possible that they would like to stay with that plot a little longer than you had originally planned. Maybe they want to carry on the fight against Asmodeus. Nothing wrong with that (though it may require some rewrites on your part if that wasn't the direction in which you'd planned to take the campaign).

One thing you could do is give it a trial run, to gauge their level of enthusiasm: Dangle an Asmodeus cult plot thread in front of them, and see how they react. If reception is lukewarm or negative, it can turn out to be merely the vengeful last gasp of the cult's few remaining survivors (like Saruman in "The Scouring of the Shire"), and Asmodeus' plans have been thwarted for at least a generation. If, on the other hand, the players pounce on your thread like fun-starved kittens, then they have just uncovered the first hint of the next layer of Asmodeus' diabolical scheme!

[Peat]

To try and hit the crux of this - one player saying they miss it might not even be a request for a return from them, nevermind the rest of the group. I don't think I'd be narked if I thought it was a trying to do his best for the group but in general, yeah, I don't play RPGs to play whackamole as a rule. If I solved an issue, I'd like it to stay solved unless I either unsolve it, or there's a lot of foreshadowing that things are going wrong so I can try and keep it solved. I'd be careful about whether this is truly their's hearts desire.

In your scenario, I'd have given them warnings the kingdom was going back to poop and see how they reacted.



Someone may want to correct me, but IIRC wars in medieval times constituted a dramatic drain on resources as peasants were conscripted and lost, planting and harvest times were interfered with, etc. If someone is willing to start a war that quickly they either acquired some crazy new magical weapon or one side is so desperate for a victory they are willing to gamble their destruction even if they win.

Depends where and when really but peasant conscription was rarely a thing.

Still - people with military power in medieval times were not known for universal rock hard sanity in the face of good choices and bad choices. Fairly easy to find examples of wars where the two same sides kept hammering away at each other after brief pauses (maybe not that brief though).

[Sacrieur]

You think this from DM's or player's perspective, but let's see player's perspective.
You do a mission. You slay all the monsters and beat the BBEG.

Alright.



Then, later on, the situation happens again. The bad guys manage to "recover" from their blows or maybe they have successors. The guest must be done again.

Uh, how? Who was left to rebuild it all? A loose thread? How much time has passed to recover from that?



I have avoided this, but I don't think it has always been a good thing. In my campaign, the PCs destroyed the cults of Asmodeus quite thoroughly.

So they're not a problem.



However, one the players has said that he misses the Asmodeus conflict a little. I feel a bit torn with this: They already had a decisive victory over the whole cult and destroyed it to its very core. Should the cult(s) have successors then?

No, because they were all eliminated.



Some time ago the PCs fought in a war that was barely won. I was thinking about having another phase to the war, since I don't feel like they did enough to pacify the area. The war is, however, declared over, and the PCs did do a lot of things to win the war.

War is over, you said so yourself. A war that's over doesn't just start again.

[Yahzi]

A war that's over doesn't just start again.
Actually, in the Middle Ages, they started and stopped all the time. They don't call it the 100 Years War for nothing...

[NichG]

Setbacks are okay, but they should always take you to a place you've never been before. Setbacks should also not feel like they were inevitable, but rather are because of the way something went down. So the Asmodeus cults have been dismantled, but during some other plotline where the PCs are dealing with some kind of screwy nested prophecy situation, they unearth an artifact that was unfortunately being used to keep a cork on a fragment of Orcus' power, which explodes in their face and raises a portion of 'those who the PCs have killed or caused to die' as undead. So now they have undead Asmodeus cultists who are enslaved to Orcus to deal with - maybe its a reversion of what they did, but at least it takes it to a new place. Of course then you have to play it straight, and if they correctly discern the danger of the artifact and bypass it, that's fine too.

If it ever feels like the game is looping or frozen in place by external fiat, that makes it hard to feel like anything you do has long-term consequences.

[Bronk]

In my campaign, the PCs destroyed the cults of Asmodeus quite thoroughly. However, one the players has said that he misses the Asmodeus conflict a little. I feel a bit torn with this: They already had a decisive victory over the whole cult and destroyed it to its very core. Should the cult(s) have successors then?

Some time ago the PCs fought in a war that was barely won. I was thinking about having another phase to the war, since I don't feel like they did enough to pacify the area. The war is, however, declared over, and the PCs did do a lot of things to win the war.

I agree with you and some of the other commenters that bringing back the same cult would feel cheap, or make their prior actions feel like they had less worth. If you want to revisit this, I would suggest that you test the waters by having new forces of evil try to restart the cult, and the players hear about it and have to stamp it out.

Later, if you want to bring it up again, they can be identified as targets for assassination, which they have to fend off.

Or, they can enter a new area where the cult is still established, but they are forewarned because of the party's prior actions.

[Tondrin]

As a player, I might be a little miffed if that cult I worked my adventuring butt off for just continued to sprout up like weeds, especially right after we'd just finished doing it.

A lot of the other posters have some excellent suggestions and general advice, best I can do is just say "butterfly effect." their actions have caused something else to take effect and make waves.

[Snowbluff]

Remember the movie Mystery Men? They can always start a new cult to destroy. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

So they've taken out the cult of Asmodeus on their continent, maybe even their world, in their crystal sphere of their layer of the prime material plane.

Azzy is still out there, being Lawful and Evil. He is, in fact, quite likely to notice that one of his cults has been cut out, root and branch, from an entire region.

If he has rival Dukes of Hell (and he does), he may spread rumors of his weakness in that area, letting them build their own cults. Which he now hopes the PCs will similarly eradicate. He may even offer them just a tiny bit of help - some advice, some words of warning, maybe even a magic item or two - through a catspaw or few. After all, if they have a small edge, they can root out that other cult even faster.

Of course, FIRST he has to give his rival time to invest at least as much into this cult as Asmodeus had invested in his. Or at least enough to be proportionately similar based on relative resources. This means said cult still needs time to grow. If there are any remaining survivors of the PCs' purge, perhaps their vengeful thirsts can be slaked by helping build the other Devil Lord's cult. Or Devil Lords' cults. Those who are cunning enough will either wind up leading them and eventually turning them to Asmodeus's service, or will be excellent at playing them against the PCs for maximum cost to all sides (other than their true master's). Those who are more foolish and just want revenge...well, they'll burn out doing maximum damage to Asmodeus's enemies.

Failing setting up more devil cults, Asmodeus could provoke any vengeful remnants into creating demon-summoning circles. Open the gates to the Abyssal hordes. It is a petty revenge, but it draws resources from the opposing side of the Blood War, and punishes the place which has so thoroughly rejected Asmodeus's influence.


You could also take the campaign Planar. Maybe a heroic Archon has heard of the PCs' success at rooting out Asmodeus's cult in their homeland, and needs help on a grander scale in another place. Now, they can face the cult of Asmodeus on another plane, with wider scope and more at stake, using their home plane as an Asmodeus-free base of operations. And they don't feel they've been cheated; their victory is why they have this more impressive gig!

[Sacrieur]

Actually, in the Middle Ages, they started and stopped all the time. They don't call it the 100 Years War for nothing...

Over the course of 100 years.

They still had considerably long periods of peace (like a decade or so). War is very draining on a society.

[Red Fel]

So they've taken out the cult of Asmodeus on their continent, maybe even their world, in their crystal sphere of their layer of the prime material plane.

Azzy is still out there, being Lawful and Evil. He is, in fact, quite likely to notice that one of his cults has been cut out, root and branch, from an entire region.

If he has rival Dukes of Hell (and he does), he may spread rumors of his weakness in that area, letting them build their own cults. Which he now hopes the PCs will similarly eradicate. He may even offer them just a tiny bit of help - some advice, some words of warning, maybe even a magic item or two - through a catspaw or few. After all, if they have a small edge, they can root out that other cult even faster.

Of course, FIRST he has to give his rival time to invest at least as much into this cult as Asmodeus had invested in his. Or at least enough to be proportionately similar based on relative resources. This means said cult still needs time to grow. If there are any remaining survivors of the PCs' purge, perhaps their vengeful thirsts can be slaked by helping build the other Devil Lord's cult. Or Devil Lords' cults. Those who are cunning enough will either wind up leading them and eventually turning them to Asmodeus's service, or will be excellent at playing them against the PCs for maximum cost to all sides (other than their true master's). Those who are more foolish and just want revenge...well, they'll burn out doing maximum damage to Asmodeus's enemies.

Failing setting up more devil cults, Asmodeus could provoke any vengeful remnants into creating demon-summoning circles. Open the gates to the Abyssal hordes. It is a petty revenge, but it draws resources from the opposing side of the Blood War, and punishes the place which has so thoroughly rejected Asmodeus's influence.

A great deal of this. Segev, I have an opening in the Apprentice department, we can talk salary later.

Look, what you've described is a conflict that removed a powerful group - a Cult of the Big A. Know what happens when you do that? Power vacuum. Whether it's a result of A's direct involvement, or simply a natural (if anticipated) result of the power vacuum, other rival groups are going to start vying for the territory the Cult vacated. Maybe not immediately, or as thoroughly.

Asmodeus tends to run a very structured, organized show, as do his adherents. He holds things together in an iron grip. When that grip lets go, everyone who was being held down finds that they have elbow room, and many will flex their muscles.

Rather than give the players a proper successor to the Cult - another, carbon-copy identical cult - give them a series of new threats. They dealt with Law, now give them Chaos - the chaos of a dozen new factions vying for power after the decisive overthrow of the Cult. Bandits, gangsters, demon worshipers and corrupt bureaucrats. Everyone's going to want a piece of that pie.

Double letter score if the PCs kind of miss the stability the Cult gave to the region. Triple word score if they actually bring it back.

[Flickerdart]

Others muscling in on the empty turf is all well and good, but here's the thing - all these new groups would be weaker than the cult the PCs put down. Which means they would be boring to fight. And if they are not weaker, why would they have been downtrodden to start with?

One way to make this actually interesting is to escalate. Consider - you are a cultist of, say, Mephistopheles. You know that your patron is mighty indeed, but Asmodeus is mightier still. Any favour you request from your dread lord, his own master can top with ease. You could get Cornugons, but the incumbents would answer with Pit Fiends, so it's not worth troubling ol' Scratch.

But now there's no established power. You don't know whether other archfiends even want the area, or how much. So it's in your best interests to call in every favour you have now, and make an overwhelming show of power that will not only establish you as the dominant power, but crush all the other upstarts once and for all. Sacrifice every virgin you've got. Sell all your souls wholesale for dread power. Raise that warrior king from the tomb you've had your eyes on. Crack open so many portals to the Lower Planes that you'll need to build a brand new hotel just to house your fiendish legions.

This isn't just your average cult-off. This is World War Cult.

[Segev]

The "power vacuum" plot is a good one that does pose the question of, "if they're a not a smaller threat, why were they not in charge before?"

The answer to that question is that they are a smaller threat...individually. But chaos is, in many ways, more visibly unpleasant than a more powerful oppressive order.

As well, Asmodeus was unlikely to be present, personally. I would not be too surprised if there were not even one Pit Fiend (though it's not unheard-of for Asmodeus to send them to do his bidding for his cults).

I have a personal taste for the style of the Type V demon (Marilith), so I would use one of these for this, but you can have ANY sort of demon from a Type I to a Type VI (Vrock to Balor) slip in and see this as a major opportunity.

Wars between Devil-cults are still chaotic. Chaos is the enemy of the LE Devils. A single cunning demon could revel in that chaos, and use it to weaken the devil-cults as a giant meat-grinder, AND maybe create her own cult out of the wreckage and amidst the destruction.

Type Vs are particularly adept at making "planned chaos." Everything is in an upheaval, but it's all going according to her plan. She's more playing Xanatos Speed Chess, where Azzy had the Xanatos Gambit in place from the get-go to literally win from every possible outcome, but she can LOOK as near-lawful as a demon can get, all while simply being in here element waiting for opportunities to arise from the chaos for her to exploit.

[arkangel111]

There are some amazing ideas in this thread and I hope to be able to use some of them for some future games. I will not bore you with yet another suggestion to fill it in. I would save this campaign for a future use and go up against the azmodeus cult in the future with this same group but as descendants of the party. I think that would both give you the nod towards this previous epic adventure while also giving everyone fresh starts. Azzy is likely to at the least rebuild his cult but it would take years if it was thoroughly obliterated, as it seems you are saying. I would use the revisiting of the cult as a plot hook for a future adventure and go with one of the power vacuum ideas many others suggested, with perhaps a nod here and there and some foreshadowing for future adventures.

my $.02

[Tvtyrant]

Instead of the cult coming back as a cult, have a group of investers and lackeys go after the group in retribution. Arms dealer X and mercenary captain Y both made unholy profits from working with the cult, so they team up. Not to put things back, or start a new war, but to kill the party.

Suddenly assassins are trying their hand, inns become ambushes, and poison begins to enter their food supply. The big thing is to make sure that it is directes at the party, and the hired killers are never told who they work for or why it is happening. Eventually they find the brokers going between the contract killers and the irritated millionaires, and from them find out who their enemies are.