[3.X] Immoth CR

[Thurbane]

I know MM2 is notorious for it's horrible CRs (Adamantine Clockwork Horror gets a lot of mentions in particular)...but I'd never read the Immoth entry until just now.

Wow.

12th level sorcerer casting on a large 10HD Elemental; throw in the ability to store it's spells in "Ice Runes" which it can trigger as a free action (it always has 5-14 of these imbedded in its body at any time) and it doesn't even need it's tacked on abilities of paralyzing poison, perfect flight (30), SR 23 and half damage from piercing and slashing weapons.

The only chink in it's armor is vulnerability to fire - naturally, any sane Immoth would have Resist Energy/Protection from Energy in its spells known, but lets ignore that for now...

Oh, and just for giggles, it advances by character class by default. Heck, why not throw some extra Sorcerer levels on there, hey?

Alignment? Usually Neutral. Phew...it probably won't attack us right? Oh, they eat any sort of creature and consume it's life essence. Hope it's not hungry.

So I check the 3.5 update, hoping some sanity may have prevailed. What have they changed? Got rid of the half damage from piercing and slashing, and replaced it with DR 10/magic and bludgeoning.

:smalleek:

If I was to use this monstrosity in my game, what fair CR would you give it? I peg it at about 12-13. The Ice Rune ability might push it higher - maybe 14-15 (assuming I apply some common sense and change their trigger time from Free to Swift)?

Thoughts?

Cheers - T

[Starbuck_II]

I know MM2 is notorious for it's horrible CRs (Adamantine Clockwork Horror gets a lot of mentions in particular)...but I'd never read the Immoth entry until just now.

Wow.

12th level sorcerer casting on a large 10HD Elemental; throw in the ability to store it's spells in "Ice Runes" which it can trigger as a free action (it always has 5-14 of these imbedded in its body at any time) and it doesn't even need it's tacked on abilities of paralyzing poison, perfect flight (60), SR 23 and half damage from piercing and slashing weapons.

The only chink in it's armor is vulnerability to fire - naturally, any sane Immoth would have Resist Energy/Protection from Energy in its spells known, but lets ignore that for now...

Oh, and just for giggles, it advances by character class by default. Heck, why not throw some extra Sorcerer levels on there, hey?

Alignment? Usually Neutral. Phew...it probably won't attack us right? Oh, they eat any sort of creature and consume it's life essence. Hope it's not hungry.

So I check the 3.5 update, hoping some sanity may have prevailed. What have they changed? Got rid of the half damage from piercing and slashing, and replaced it with DR 10/magic and bludgeoning.

:smalleek:

If I was to use this monstrosity in my game, what fair CR would you give it? I peg it at about 12-13. The Ice Rune ability might push it higher - maybe 14-15 (assuming I apply some common sense and change their trigger time from Free to Swift)?

Thoughts?

Cheers - T

With 3.5's DR change CR 12 (13 if free action Runes).
CR 14/15 if body resistance still is 1/2 damage from Piece/slash (a lot better than DR since stacks).


Honestly, might be better if instead od Natural casting they got multiple 3/day of each thematic spell-like abilities.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It really depends on how optimized your party is and whether they know about the necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), and how quickly you would expect them to blow through its 85 hp. Plus a Cleric with any elemental domain can Turn or Rebuke it, which is a huge drawback. It's not focused on anything; it could be a primary spellcaster, but it could also be a melee attacker with its poison, and it has horrible feat choices.

I would leave it at CR 9 if you give it spells as though it's a primary caster, or CR 12 if you give it gish spells, especially Wraithstrike, and replace Cleave with Multiattack. Keep in mind that this was printed at a time when Quickened spells were free actions, so it should only be able to use one Ice Rune or Swift action per round.

The real problem comes when you realize that 3.5 Elemental Wild Shape enables a character to change into anything of the elemental creature type as long as it has at least one of the listed subtypes and is within the size limitation. (Monster Manual Elementals are named "Air/Earth/Fire/Water Elemental, Size" whereas the creature type and subtype line says "Size Elemental (Air/Earth/Fire/Water)" and Elemental Wild Shape matches the latter format exactly, thus anything with a qualifying size, type, and subtype is a valid choice as that's what the ability is referring to. The Improved Elemental Wild Shape epic feat was copied and pasted from the 3.0 version verbatim, but it's based entirely on the 3.0 version of Elemental Wild Shape which is no longer valid.) A Druid 16+ can Elemental Wild Shape into an Immoth and turn all of his remaining spells into ice runes at the end of each day, and those ice runes last indefinitely and can still be used by their creator regardless of his current form.

[Inevitability]

Do the Ice Runes remain there indefinitely? Could you have an Immoth who stores all of his good spells in those runes, then rests, then has two sets of spells?

But seriously. There's no reason for one of those not to just create some extraplanar home (Rope Trick is well within his capabilities, as is Plane Shift should he have taken Extra Spell), occasionally zap to the prime material, nova a few non-cold resistant beings (12 shivering touches in one round? Don't mind if I do.), eat them and retreat again.

[nedz]

Immoth: Elemental; 10 ft./10 ft.; 10/magic bludgeoning; Climb +17, Hide +12, Jump +17, Spot +14, Swim +12; Cleave, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack; LA +6; Cold subtype change. Replace immunities with improved damage reduction.


12th level sorcerer casting
large 10HD Elemental
Store it's spells in "Ice Runes" which it can trigger as a free action (it always has 5-14 of these imbedded in its body at any time)
Paralyzing poison
Perfect flight (30)
SR 23 and DR 10/magic bludgeoning


So 12th level sorcerer caster with nova ability and a Gish.
CR 15 is my guess, though I could live with CR 16.