5e Warlord for Primeval Thule (non magical healer)

[Psikerlord]

Hi all,

I am planning a campaign in Primeval Thule which is a low magic setting, and trying to design a warlord class with healing, damage mitigation and action enabling abilities... something that could substitute for the support role of a cleric.

http://dndhackersguild.weebly.com/blog/warlord-for-dnd-5e-and-primeval-thule

I'd really appreciate any feedback - especially about whether you feel any of the options are OP, or if you have more fun ideas/abilities that could be substituted?

Cheers for any replies in advance.

[Sayt]

You're more likely to get more helpful feedback and advice on the 5e sub-board (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-D-amp-D-5e-Next) :smallsmile:

[Psikerlord]

You're more likely to get more helpful feedback and advice on the 5e sub-board (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?63-D-amp-D-5e-Next) :smallsmile:

oops good point!

[Finieous]

Just a couple comments and opinions:

* Strength and Intelligence aren't appropriate saving throws. You want to give proficiency in one "good" and one "bad" save (probably Con and Int, for this concept).

* I would suggest trying to clean up your use of game terminology ("reactionary action," "short action," etc.). Even if this is only meant for your home group, it will make the material more clear and easier to use.

* It seems that this is a new class, which means that it should have many fewer abilities but offer a couple subclasses. Alternatively, consider making it a subclass instead (see Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret in SCAG).

* I'm not a fan of abilities that refresh on the beneficiary's rest, as opposed to the person using the action. They should be a finite resource that must be managed by the player using them.

* It's overpowered, in my opinion, though this may be intentional. Compare to abilities such as the Healer feat, Inspiring Leader, and the PDK second-wind-sharing ability (AFB and don't remember what it's called).

Thanks for sharing!

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Here's my "live-blog" reaction:
Warning Shout: I like that the uses are limited to the target. I would put an explicit range on it. Better than Song of Rest imo.
Fighting Style: Shows up twice, at lvl 1 and 2, not sure if this is intentional.
Combat Medic: "Short action" is not a 5e term. I think you mean Bonus Action.
I'm noticing several abilities scale off of INT+level, which I think would get outpaced by the damage of most monsters. This might lead to tricky balance, either too powerful at low level or too weak at high level.
Tactical Presence: Needs an explicit range. The wording makes it seem that every party member gets all of these abilities, making them majorly powerful. "Fumble attack" is not a 5e term, I think you mean "rolls a 1 on an attack roll". This entire ability reads like a bunch of combat houserules crammed into a class feature.
Form Up: There's no condition on the reaction. All other reactions in 5e have a specific condition that needs to be filled before the reaction can be triggered.
Also, I'm noticing many of the abilities use a reaction. Not inherently bad, as it creates a distinct flavor of a tactician reacting to the battle as it unfolds. But it may not work out in practice, with only 1 reaction a round the Warlord may have trouble accomplishing what they need to do.
Cohesive Discipline: "extended rest" = "long rest". Again, needs an explicit range.
Improved Warning shout: For the record, we're up to 1d8+INT+2*lvl, so 21-33 damage prevented per party member, then can heal 11-21 to each party member. Everyone in the party gets 32 to 57 extra hp per short rest.
Master of Arms: Seems fine. Same as a paladin.
Improved Combat Medic: We're up to 54 to 76 floating hp per party member per short rest for those keeping score. Also, I'm noticing that the die portion of the healing abilities are getting crushed by the static bonus portion of the equations. This makes the abilities very predictable and consistent.
Morale Breaker: Morale checks are an optional variant rule in the DMG. I'm guessing that since this is for a custom campaign setting, then the rule will definitely be used.
Marshal Forces: Needs guidelines. How hard is it to gather followers? If they die, can they be replenished? How quickly? If they accompany you in combat, do you have control or the DM? This entire ability needs a disclaimer saying "Some assembly by the DM required".
No Surrender: Needs an explicit range. Even paladin auras have a limit expressed in feet. Seems strong, especially in combination with the Marshal forces ability. Has no action requirement, so if the entire party (or an entire army for that matter) gets dropped simultaneously by a meteor swarm, no one will actually drop.
Flawless Defense: Immune to crits, and creatures auto-miss 10% of the time. And now you can finally be completely immune to attacks from low-level creatures if you can get your AC high enough.
Raise Army: This is a campaign plot point crammed into a class feature. There's no reason that a level 20 PC of any type with the right connections can't do the exact same thing by simply asking the DM and putting the appropriate time and resources into it. Campaign dependent, and either way, completely useless as an explicit class feature. If the campaign doesn't require an army, you have no use for this, and if the campaign does require an army, any DM who doesn't allow to to create or hire one without this feature is sabotaging their own campaign.

Well, that's all I got. Apologies if it comes across as negative. I did enjoy reading and thinking about this class. Criticism is just easy.

[Psikerlord]

Just a couple comments and opinions:

* Strength and Intelligence aren't appropriate saving throws. You want to give proficiency in one "good" and one "bad" save (probably Con and Int, for this concept).

* I would suggest trying to clean up your use of game terminology ("reactionary action," "short action," etc.). Even if this is only meant for your home group, it will make the material more clear and easier to use.

* It seems that this is a new class, which means that it should have many fewer abilities but offer a couple subclasses. Alternatively, consider making it a subclass instead (see Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret in SCAG).

* I'm not a fan of abilities that refresh on the beneficiary's rest, as opposed to the person using the action. They should be a finite resource that must be managed by the player using them.

* It's overpowered, in my opinion, though this may be intentional. Compare to abilities such as the Healer feat, Inspiring Leader, and the PDK second-wind-sharing ability (AFB and don't remember what it's called).

Thanks for sharing!

Thanks very much for your feedback Finieous - I appreciate it.

I thought Dex, Str and Wis were the main saves? So that's why I went with Int and Str, but I understand your point.

I'm purposely not using certain 5e terms for copyright reasons - just in case! Yep I know the proper 5e terms are bonus action and so on.

I can see why you don't like abilities refreshing on the target's rest, but I figure the party rests together mostly. This warlord is supposed to replace the cleric in a low magic world, so I am trying to spread that healing/damage mitigation somehow, but with a martial feel to it?

The abilities are certainly OP compared to feats, but again these abilities basically are meant to fill in for a lower power cleric in healing terms (not a complete cleric healing power replacement, as this warlord get 2 attacks like a fighter, and other action enabling abilities). Is there any ability in particular you think is OP, or is that an overall impression?

I don't want an OP healer in my party!

Cheers and thanks again

edit - sorry yep this is really a new class and subclass rolled into one. I didn't want to try and tackle all the forms of 4e warlord in one go, so I focused only on certain themes - intelligence, healing, damage reduction and action enabling. I am kinda planning a spell less bard fighter variant with a focus on charisma, temp hps, skills and legend lore like abilities

[Psikerlord]

Here's my "live-blog" reaction:
Warning Shout: I like that the uses are limited to the target. I would put an explicit range on it. Better than Song of Rest imo.
Fighting Style: Shows up twice, at lvl 1 and 2, not sure if this is intentional.
Combat Medic: "Short action" is not a 5e term. I think you mean Bonus Action.
I'm noticing several abilities scale off of INT+level, which I think would get outpaced by the damage of most monsters. This might lead to tricky balance, either too powerful at low level or too weak at high level.
Tactical Presence: Needs an explicit range. The wording makes it seem that every party member gets all of these abilities, making them majorly powerful. "Fumble attack" is not a 5e term, I think you mean "rolls a 1 on an attack roll". This entire ability reads like a bunch of combat houserules crammed into a class feature.
Form Up: There's no condition on the reaction. All other reactions in 5e have a specific condition that needs to be filled before the reaction can be triggered.
Also, I'm noticing many of the abilities use a reaction. Not inherently bad, as it creates a distinct flavor of a tactician reacting to the battle as it unfolds. But it may not work out in practice, with only 1 reaction a round the Warlord may have trouble accomplishing what they need to do.
Cohesive Discipline: "extended rest" = "long rest". Again, needs an explicit range.
Improved Warning shout: For the record, we're up to 1d8+INT+2*lvl, so 21-33 damage prevented per party member, then can heal 11-21 to each party member. Everyone in the party gets 32 to 57 extra hp per short rest.
Master of Arms: Seems fine. Same as a paladin.
Improved Combat Medic: We're up to 54 to 76 floating hp per party member per short rest for those keeping score. Also, I'm noticing that the die portion of the healing abilities are getting crushed by the static bonus portion of the equations. This makes the abilities very predictable and consistent.
Morale Breaker: Morale checks are an optional variant rule in the DMG. I'm guessing that since this is for a custom campaign setting, then the rule will definitely be used.
Marshal Forces: Needs guidelines. How hard is it to gather followers? If they die, can they be replenished? How quickly? If they accompany you in combat, do you have control or the DM? This entire ability needs a disclaimer saying "Some assembly by the DM required".
No Surrender: Needs an explicit range. Even paladin auras have a limit expressed in feet. Seems strong, especially in combination with the Marshal forces ability. Has no action requirement, so if the entire party (or an entire army for that matter) gets dropped simultaneously by a meteor swarm, no one will actually drop.
Flawless Defense: Immune to crits, and creatures auto-miss 10% of the time. And now you can finally be completely immune to attacks from low-level creatures if you can get your AC high enough.
Raise Army: This is a campaign plot point crammed into a class feature. There's no reason that a level 20 PC of any type with the right connections can't do the exact same thing by simply asking the DM and putting the appropriate time and resources into it. Campaign dependent, and either way, completely useless as an explicit class feature. If the campaign doesn't require an army, you have no use for this, and if the campaign does require an army, any DM who doesn't allow to to create or hire one without this feature is sabotaging their own campaign.

Well, that's all I got. Apologies if it comes across as negative. I did enjoy reading and thinking about this class. Criticism is just easy.

Thanks GWJ_Dannyboy for your insights, some excellent points in here.

I agree Form Up doesn't work well as a reaction - I think I'll change that to a bonus action.

Yeah I purposely used certain non-5e terms to avoid copyright issues, just in case.

I did mean for all party members to potentially benefit from tactical presence, in terms of triggering it on a crit roll. My own view is that would not necessarily be OP but I can see how in a lucky combat with multiple crits it could get out of hand. Perhaps it needs a limit of one use per PC per rest?

Yes I agree the static bonus esp on double level dwarfs the variable. I was going for that amount of healing, as a replacement for the cleric, but there might be a better more variable expression for it - perhaps double dice, plus double int bonus, plus level? I guess I just want something that will scale to try and keep up with monster damage/PC HP percentages.

Flawless defence - yep I know it's strong, but I figure at 18th level, you only use it for a few adventures and then retire, so if it's a bit too much it wont be for long

And just on the summon men/armies etc - I've taken a page out of primeval thule for that - those kinds of things are built into their background variants. I agree any 20th level character could do this, really, but I like the idea of this capability being hard-coded into the warlord class. The 20th level thing, especially, is not for long - you are on the verge of retirement, after all.

Cheers and thanks again - some great comments and I need to go away and think about things further/tweak more!