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Jimbob
2007-05-29, 03:58 AM
I will be playing in a new group shortly and I am looking to play a shadowdancer, but I am not sure what way to go about it. I am looking for ideas of the best classes to take before I take the class and best race. I was thinking of rogue for the sneak attack when I jump out of shadow's but that was just my first idea.
But I am open to many other ideas.

Starsinger
2007-05-29, 05:21 AM
Rogue is nice. Your Shadow, from Summon Shadow of course, allows you to set up flanking without relying on other party members. Plus there's hide in plain sight... perfect for being sneaky. And as a plus, since yo need 10 ranks in hide, even if perform is cross class, you don't have to multiclass if you go straight rogue/shadow dancer.

Fizban
2007-05-29, 05:39 AM
Perform is in-class for rogues.

Starsinger
2007-05-29, 06:11 AM
Oh neat! I wasn't sure, and didn't wanna look.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-29, 07:11 AM
Shadowdancer is most abusable at night, don't forget. The hide in plain sight is easily his best ability, and fortunately you get that right out of the gate. Being able to hide anywhere so long as there is any form of shadow is so easy that they might as well just say "can hide anywhere, always". Consider picking up spring attack, as you can go back to hiding at the end of any move action with this. This includes the end of a spring attack, letting you launch attacks and then go back into hiding, plus you already need to have dodge and mobility- spring attack's prerequisites- to get the class in the first place, so it's a pretty easy pill to swallow.

Your ability to survive is incredible, but your damage output won't seem so nifty compared to a full-blooded rogue. Thing is, though, your survival skills are based around the fact that you won't be taking damage practically... ever. This isn't good defense, it's invulnerability so long as the dice don't fail you. Just play it safe, seek out useful items, and maybe tweak your stats a little for more power, and you should be fine.

Yvian
2007-05-29, 08:08 AM
Take levels in Rouge/Swashbuckler. Pick up the feat from PHII that lets those two stack.

Person_Man
2007-05-29, 09:20 AM
Shadowdancer (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/shadowdancer.html) is a weak class for a PC.

1) It requires Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility. Combat Reflexes is only a good idea if you're using an AoO build (rare for Skill Monkeys). Dodge and Mobility are marginal feats, similar to Weapon Focus or Combat Casting.

2) It has only 6 Skill points per level, less then most other Skill Monkey classes and PrC.

3) Hide in Plain Sight is a deceptively poor ability. At mid levels, you should have access to Greater Invisibility or Blinking, which are both superior. And if you want to shoot (presumably with Greater Rapidshot) and then Hide in the same round, you take a -20 to your check.

4) The second level grants Evasion, but NOT Improved Evasion if you already have Evasion. (Unlike the Master Thrower and a few other PrC). Since most classes that enter Shadowdancer with Evasion, this is a wasted ability.

5) It doesn't progress any Precision Damage, spells, or other special attacks. So you're great at Hiding and getting away. Wow. Now what? How do you contribute to actually winning a combat, rather then just annoying your enemies?

6) The Shadow companion starts with only 3 HD, and progresses to a maximum of 7 HD, too fragile to be of much use.

7) The main Shadow Jump ability is weaker then normal Dimension Door, which is easily replicated by magic items. Furthermore, anyone with high Tumble really doesn't need Dimension Door very much.

If you are intent on being a Shadow Dancer, then I suggest using a variant Ranger (without spells or the Animal Companion) for your entry. Use the Ranged Combat tree. Shoot, Hide in Plain Sight, repeat. You'll have a piss poor damage output, but at least you'll be hard to kill.

Might I ask, what is it that you want out of your class? Perhaps I could suggest a superior alternative.

Jimbob
2007-05-29, 10:20 AM
Well I am looking to play a darkish rogue. So the Shadowdancer would be for roll playing as much as possible. Hidding in shadows jumping out killing some one and slowly getting away. Some thing like that I guess. So I could then go on to Assassin after a few levels of Shadowdancer. So lets say 7 rogue 4 shadowdancer and assassin??? Just a thought.

But If im jumping between shadows and only getting one attack around, then I will need to be doing some major damage, thats why I thought a rogue would be best because of the sneak attack, and there are feats and magic that can increase that, but cant think off the top of my head. But I am open to more ideas on that front as well.

And im not really into the archery thing. Was thinking of two weapon fighting. And using weapon finess with power attack could be a way forward im guessing. But I am open to many other ideas.

Were-Sandwich
2007-05-29, 10:25 AM
Try Swordsage instead of Rogue/Shadowdancer. You get all the sneaky/assassin/sneak attack-ness form the Shadow Hand discipline, which also ahs Shadow Jump and friends, but is just damn better.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-29, 10:26 AM
Try scout for the skirmish thing.

Person_Man
2007-05-29, 11:18 AM
Well I am looking to play a darkish rogue. So the Shadowdancer would be for roll playing as much as possible. Hidding in shadows jumping out killing some one and slowly getting away. Some thing like that I guess. So I could then go on to Assassin after a few levels of Shadowdancer. So lets say 7 rogue 4 shadowdancer and assassin??? Just a thought.

But If im jumping between shadows and only getting one attack around, then I will need to be doing some major damage, thats why I thought a rogue would be best because of the sneak attack, and there are feats and magic that can increase that, but cant think off the top of my head. But I am open to more ideas on that front as well.

And im not really into the archery thing. Was thinking of two weapon fighting. And using weapon finess with power attack could be a way forward im guessing. But I am open to many other ideas.

Rogue and Assassin are very poorly suited to do melee damage. Sneak Attack progression is very slow compared to Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper progression, and it has serious Precision restrictions. The Assassin's Death Attack has a laughable DC, so it's rarely useful. And almost any Skill Monkey build is going to be very squishy. So you hit your enemy and maybe kill them, and their friends hit you back and kill you. So unless you get high AC (expensive items) and high hit points (high Con), you don't stand a chance.

Were-Sandwich's Swordsage suggestion is a very good one.

If you can't use Tome of Battle, Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is a good choice. Just use Expanded Knowledge to pick up one or two potent offensive psionic powers.

You can also just use a standard melee build with high Int. The Gorilla Scout feat from Heroes of Battle makes Hide and Move Silently cost only 1 point per level regardless of class, and it reduces the Armor Check penalty of our armor by 1. The Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny makes ALL skills only cost 1 point per level regardless of class. Skill Improving magic items are cheap, as are a variety of items that grant Invisibility and Silence. There's really no reason to be a Skill Monkey class if all you want out of it is stealth.

If you're stuck on being a melee Rogue for whatever reason, I suggest Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 with the Daring Outlaw (levels stack for Sneak Attack), Improved Unarmed Attack+TWF or a two handed Elven Courtblade (either will count for Finesse and Power Attack), and the Power Attack tree. That way you'll have respectable Skills, full Sneak Attack, and 19/20 Power Attack. Not a great combo (being feat intensive, it doesn't really kick in until high levels), but a good one.

PlatinumJester
2007-05-29, 12:13 PM
A rogue has a dead level at lvl 20 so you can take only one level and not lose any of the rogues class abilities, however any mor ethan that and you lose a sneak attack and some other crap that isn't very good.

Draz74
2007-05-29, 12:48 PM
Shadowdancer isn't optimal, but it's not as bad as all that ... Some of your points were very valid, but on the other hand ...



2) It has only 6 Skill points per level, less then most other Skill Monkey classes and PrC.

Um ... maybe Complete Adventurer has a ton of 8-skills/level PrC's that I'm just not remembering, but I doubt it.

Some skill monkey classes even have only 4 skill points/level (Lurk, Assassin, some lame semi-skill-monkey classes like Monk). MANY have 6/level (Shadowdancer, Psychic Rogue, Beguiler, Ninja, Spellthief, Thief-Acrobat, Ranger, Bard, Elocator). Only a few actually have 8/level (Rogue and Scout are the only ones I can think of right now).

You sound like Skip Williams, writing on most arcane caster classes, "d6 Hit Die isn't great, but it's better than what most arcane caster classes get." :smalltongue:


3) Hide in Plain Sight is a deceptively poor ability. At mid levels, you should have access to Greater Invisibility or Blinking, which are both superior. And if you want to shoot (presumably with Greater Manyshot) and then Hide in the same round, you take a -20 to your check.

First: I'd rather use Hide than Greater Invisibility or Blink in many situations, easily. Greater Invisibility is easy to foil with magical counters (Glitterdust FTW). The great thing about mundane hiding is that magic has trouble countering it, even with True Seeing. And Blink introduces too much randomness into your combat (when your own attacks can fail too), and we all know randomness is bad for PCs. Greater Blink is better than Hiding, yes, but not everyone has access to it.

Second: -20 is what you take on a Hide check after a Manyshot without Hide in Plain Sight. Anyone can snipe like that, with the -20 penalty. (Which, actually, still doesn't make the tactic useless if you pump Hide up enough!) As I understand it, Hide in Plain Sight gets rid of this -20 penalty quite nicely! (Plus it works with melee attacks too.)


4) The second level grants Evasion, but NOT Improved Evasion if you already have Evasion. (Unlike the Master Thrower and a few other PrC). Since most classes that enter Shadowdancer with Evasion, this is a wasted ability.

Mostly true. But Ranger 7 / Shadowdancer X has been known to happen, for example, and he will appreciate getting Evasion before Level 19.


5) It doesn't progress any Precision Damage, spells, or other special attacks. So you're great at Hiding and getting away. Wow. Now what? How do you contribute to actually winning a combat, rather then just annoying your enemies?

Sadly, true. Big problem.


6) The Shadow companion starts with only 3 HD, and progresses to a maximum of 7 HD, too fragile to be of much use.

Incorporeal. It's great. It makes him invulnerable against a fair selection of monsters. Unfortunately, this becomes a situational ability, where you have to send your Shadow Companion away to safety when your opponent is the type that actually can hurt incorporeals.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-29, 09:55 PM
Shadowdancer is a weak class for a PC.

1) It requires Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Mobility. Combat Reflexes is only a good idea if you're using an AoO build (rare for Skill Monkeys).

I'm afraid I have to disagree on Combat Reflexes. Anything that generates extra attacks is gravy, for anyone who gets bonus damage on their attacks(especially with the Shadow being an almost unkillable flanking partner)


2) It has only 6 Skill points per level, less then most other Skill Monkey classes and PrC.

Intelligence is practically the 2nd most important(possibly behind Charisma, if you're the face) stat after Dexterity.


3) Hide in Plain Sight is a deceptively poor ability. At mid levels, you should have access to Greater Invisibility or Blinking, which are both superior. And if you want to shoot (presumably with Greater Rapidshot) and then Hide in the same round, you take a -20 to your check.

Granted, HiPS is supernatural, but it's still superior to relying on scrolls(money drain), magic items(resource that could be used for another item), or a fellow party member(resource that could be used for another spell). Besides which, its being available at level 1 makes the class extremely front-heavy.


4) The second level grants Evasion, but NOT Improved Evasion if you already have Evasion. (Unlike the Master Thrower and a few other PrC). Since most classes that enter Shadowdancer with Evasion, this is a wasted ability.

No contest there. That power is more for the likes of Rangers(who can enter the class at ECL7, same as Bards, Monks, and Rogues), and Bards.


5) It doesn't progress any Precision Damage, spells, or other special attacks. So you're great at Hiding and getting away. Wow. Now what? How do you contribute to actually winning a combat, rather than just annoying your enemies?

You're thinking of Hiding during combat. The fact that you're practically invisible anytime you're not attacking means you're practically guaranteed the surprise round, which I would personally use to set up a Crippling Hamstringing Staggering Arterial Strike, leaving the enemy crippled, weakened, unable to perform many actions, and bleeding to death. Essentially, I would "meta-Sneak Attack" the crap out of my Surprise Round. After that, the companion ensures that I get to keep doing it round after round(unless you entered by Ninja, then you're kind of screwed without hiding again).


6) The Shadow companion starts with only 3 HD, and progresses to a maximum of 7 HD, too fragile to be of much use.


An incorporeal creature has no physical body.It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.

It is immune to a ton of things. As a companion, it's even immune to Turn Undead, so your opponent needs ghost touch weapons to consistently harm it(and you can't even use criticals to hasten the process). It can travel underground with just its eyes sticking through(for comparison, you're swimming underwater with your head turned up so that just your nose and eyes are sticking out), ready to strike. It can even go completely underground, or into a wall(barely touching the surface), because it can sense things outside the surface. It deals Strength Damage, dovetailing nicely with Crippling Strike to knock out the opposition possibly in a single combined strike(1d6 from the Shadow, +2 from the Rogue, puts the opponent at -1 to -4 Strength modifier). Its attacks ignore almost all armour except Deflection and Force. This means it's basically doing a Touch Attack, making its low AB less of a hinderance than first impressions.


7) The main Shadow Jump ability is weaker then normal Dimension Door, which is easily replicated by magic items. Furthermore, anyone with high Tumble really doesn't need Dimension Door very much.

It's really just a way to get to spots you cannot quite reach(like halfway up a cliff to a cave or ledge). Also useful as a final bail-out, if your opponent can somehow keep spotting you.

Gavin Sage
2007-05-29, 10:32 PM
A Rogue taking one level in Shadowdancer well worth it. Hiding's action is listed as "Usually None" with the only exception listed as sniping from over ten feet away. So strike, hide, strike, repeat can be done ad nauseaum. And as you are not infact invisible True Seeing and similar magic does not effect you. Hello easy Sneak Attack.

That said I think the rest of the class levels are rather pointless.

technomancer
2007-05-29, 10:53 PM
I would seriusly beg your DM to change the Shadow Jump ability from "X feet per day" to "X feet per usage."

Seriously, 20 feet a day? How pointless. You can move that far on foot, and still have a standard action left over with which to attack, or you can use your standard action to move 20 feet, and then hang around until next round to actually do something.

It already costs a standard action to activate, and it has a tiny range, even maxed out. I don't see why they put the usage caps at per-day to begin with.

Also, ironically enough, Sun School combat feat is actually pretty good for shadowdancers, since it gives you a free melee attack at your highest attack bonus when you show up next to someone via instant trasport, i.e. shadow jump. The feat is designed for monks, but I've taken it as a horizon walker, psychic warrior and a shadowdancer. But not as a monk :/

goat
2007-05-30, 07:35 AM
That 20 feet per day is plenty enough for any assassin type.

You sneak up to the window, look inside at where your target is sleeping. Shadow jump 10feet from where you are to a shadow inside, kill your target, shadow jump 10feet back out.

Quick and easy kill, no window breaking/lock picking required.

Jimbob
2007-05-30, 10:03 AM
GOAT I love that idea!! :smallbiggrin: You have just rounded up my character in one easy and quick sentance.

And the thing with shadow jump not the fact that it increase's as you gain levels, so 80ft shadow jump in my eyes is worth having. And taking rouge levels hidding in shadows jumping out one attack with sneak attack in my eyes is some thing not to be messing about with. And then add things like power attack and all the other bits of damage you can do I think this will be a nasty build in my eyes, played correctly of course.

Can any one give me a list or ideas of feats that are not from the PHB, for extra damage, sneak attack, attacks that do bleeding damage and stat damage. Just so I can start getting a few dieas into my head. Oh and magic things too please.

Thanks every one for all your helpful ideas! TOP NOCH!!:smallcool:

ChomZ
2007-05-30, 10:26 AM
That 20 feet per day is plenty enough for any assassin type.

You sneak up to the window, look inside at where your target is sleeping. Shadow jump 10feet from where you are to a shadow inside, kill your target, shadow jump 10feet back out.

Quick and easy kill, no window breaking/lock picking required.

I'm not sure if this is the case with shadow dancers, but I know that the ToB's shadow blade shadow jump ability can only be used in line of effect, so through glass is no good, you just bounce off..

Person_Man
2007-05-30, 10:34 AM
GAH! Can't reply to everything, so here's my best shot:


Um ... maybe Complete Adventurer has a ton of 8-skills/level PrC's that I'm just not remembering, but I doubt it.

A two second search of crystalkeep reveals the Dungeon Delver, Exemplar, Nightsong Infiltrator, Poisoner, Replacement Killer, Spymaster, Stoneface, plus at least half a dozen base classes have 8 Skill points per level. There are a lot more in the supplements not covered there. Plus the Shadowdancer lacks Disable Device, Open Lock, and Use Magic Device. So while its a good Skill Monkey, the Shadowdancer is still lacking compared to many other Skill based classes.



First: I'd rather use Hide than Greater Invisibility or Blink in many situations, easily. Greater Invisibility is easy to foil with magical counters (Glitterdust FTW). The great thing about mundane hiding is that magic has trouble countering it, even with True Seeing. And Blink introduces too much randomness into your combat (when your own attacks can fail too), and we all know randomness is bad for PCs. Greater Blink is better than Hiding, yes, but not everyone has access to it.

In the vast majority of cases, you don't need Hide in Plain Site because of the existence of Greater Invisibility and Blink (buy a Ghost Touch weapon, they're cheap). In the one encounter that your DM has an enemy with True Sight or Dispel Magic, it'll be bad. But that's no reason to have a horribly sub-optimal build for every other encounter.


Second: -20 is what you take on a Hide check after a Manyshot without Hide in Plain Sight. Anyone can snipe like that, with the -20 penalty. (Which, actually, still doesn't make the tactic useless if you pump Hide up enough!) As I understand it, Hide in Plain Sight gets rid of this -20 penalty quite nicely! (Plus it works with melee attacks too.)

Hide in Plain Sight only removes the necessity for cover or concealment (a place to Hide) that you need in order to make a check, and allows you to attempt a Hide check while people are observing you. There is nothing in the description of the Hide in Plain Site ability that states it removes any penalties to your Hide check, including the -20 penalty for Sniping.


Incorporeal. It's great. It makes him invulnerable against a fair selection of monsters. Unfortunately, this becomes a situational ability, where you have to send your Shadow Companion away to safety when your opponent is the type that actually can hurt incorporeals.

Your Shadow Companion has very few hit points. It can be harmed by "by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects." A very low level spell or other effect can blast it away quite quickly, as can most clerics with a Turn or Rebuke ability. At best, it distracts an an enemy away from you for one round. Helpful, but only a minor benefit, and definitely a lot weaker then an animal companion or special mount.



I'm afraid I have to disagree on Combat Reflexes. Anything that generates extra attacks is gravy, for anyone who gets bonus damage on their attacks(especially with the Shadow being an almost unkillable flanking partner)

Combat Reflexes is a great feat IF you have a combo that generates AoO. If you don't, then it's very rarely used. As I just stated above, with only 19ish hit points, the Shadow is easily killed unless the people you're fighting have absolutely no access to spells, spell like abilities, supernatural effects, or magic items. In that rare case, it would in fact be invulnerable, and you should just Hide while it consumes your enemies' souls.




Granted, HiPS is supernatural, but it's still superior to relying on scrolls(money drain), magic items(resource that could be used for another item), or a fellow party member(resource that could be used for another spell). Besides which, its being available at level 1 makes the class extremely front-heavy.

I agree that it is front loaded, which is good. I wouldn't mind a one level dip in Shadow Dancer for Hide in Plain Site, if it didn't require Dodge and Mobility. But it does, and those feats are a huge waste. But if you can't depend on your party arcane caster to use Greater Invisibility on you, then your party has much bigger problems then your suboptimal build.


You're thinking of Hiding during combat. The fact that you're practically invisible anytime you're not attacking means you're practically guaranteed the surprise round, which I would personally use to set up a Crippling Hamstringing Staggering Arterial Strike, leaving the enemy crippled, weakened, unable to perform many actions, and bleeding to death. Essentially, I would "meta-Sneak Attack" the crap out of my Surprise Round. After that, the companion ensures that I get to keep doing it round after round(unless you entered by Ninja, then you're kind of screwed without hiding again).

I agree. Using the surprise round to maximum effectiveness is a great idea. But with Invisibility Sphere, or many magic items, or anyone walking around in mundane shadowy illumination (such as that found in virtually every dungeon) can do this just as well.

Also, Crippling Strike, Hamstring, Arterial Strike, and all the other Sneak Attack feats are generally a waste. You're trading damage for a minor or moderate effects which do not kill your enemy. Unless its a BBEG which will undoubtedly survive for many rounds, it's more efficient just destroy them, rather then stack a bunch of annoying penalties on them. And BBEG tend to have high Saves, which protect them from many different special effects.


It is immune to a ton of things. As a companion, it's even immune to Turn Undead, so your opponent needs ghost touch weapons to consistently harm it(and you can't even use criticals to hasten the process).

It's not immune to Turn or Rebuke. It counts as 2 HD higher for Turn and Rebuke. Considering how few HD it has, its still quite easy to get rid off.

And again, it has almost no hit points. Even with all its resistances, a single hit from an enemy will kill it (or two hits, assuming your enemy misses the first time because of incorporealness). A Shadow would make a good Familiar/Scout, but its really not worth taking a PrC for.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-30, 11:42 AM
Do please read the description of the Shadow Companion under the Shadowdancer's entry, in addition to the monster entry. It specifically says that it cannot be turned. It's essentially like unto the Shadowdancer's own shadow, given life. Think Johnny 13 from Danny Phantom. As far as spells, they still have a 50% miss chance(I wonder if that stacks with Concealment, like if you're shooting at the wall hoping it will pop out at the time.).

The ancilliary effects of a Sneak Attack are more because you will only be getting one attack in during the Surprise Round. With luck and a little skill, you inconvenience the enemy enough for your party to catch up, or you make his troops expend more resources trying to get you. When you're going after the BBEG, don't expect to be taking him down in a single Sneak Attack(or even a full round). Every d6 is worth 3.5 damage. If you're a Rogue 19(because Rogue 20 is worthless), that's 35 damage. In a full attack, you're looking at around 210 damage(6 attacks if TWF, give or take). The BBEG, assuming he's a warrior-type(let's not even get into the whole "Wizard wins Initiative" argument), has 20d10+140(given that 24 Constitution is "reasonable" for his WBL), or about 250 hp. Next round, he beats your skull in. I would rather cripple him, and with some luck, possibly even incapacitate him enough for a CdG in the next round.

For "extra" effects, you can go with the Assassin(I have no idea why one would paralyse except when you want the victim alive, although if you've paralysed them, a follow-up non-lethal sap attack will probably be enough to finish the kidnap). Staggering Strike is CAdv I think. Hamstring should be from CWar. If you're really desperate for funky stuff, get Stunning Fist and Weakening Touch(I think that's the one, also CWar), and you can do an additional 1d6 Strength damage when you spend a stun attempt. Combined with the shadow, you're looking at 4-14 Strength damage in the Surprise round, plus another 13-18 Strength damage(6 attacks+1 Shadow) in the follow-up, or about 17-32 Strength damage total.

Draz74
2007-05-30, 12:21 PM
A two second search of crystalkeep reveals the Dungeon Delver, Exemplar, Nightsong Infiltrator, Poisoner, Replacement Killer, Spymaster, Stoneface, plus at least half a dozen base classes have 8 Skill points per level. There are a lot more in the supplements not covered there. Plus the Shadowdancer lacks Disable Device, Open Lock, and Use Magic Device. So while its a good Skill Monkey, the Shadowdancer is still lacking compared to many other Skill based classes.

Hmmm. OK. My point still stands that a lot of skill monkey classes have only 6 skill points/level, and they can do fine with that. You have a point about Shadowdancer lacking some important class skills, though; you'll have to have a high Intelligence and pay double for those skills to keep the Shadowdancer as a top-tier skill monkey.


In the vast majority of cases, you don't need Hide in Plain Site because of the existence of Greater Invisibility and Blink (buy a Ghost Touch weapon, they're cheap). In the one encounter that your DM has an enemy with True Sight or Dispel Magic, it'll be bad. But that's no reason to have a horribly sub-optimal build for every other encounter.

Well, I tend to think of campaigns involving a lot of NPC opponents, including spellcasters, so Dispel Magic/Glitterdust/See Invisibility is a pretty common problem. (Not so much True Seeing, unless maybe Psionic.) But it depends on the campaign.

Besides that, I'm not sure a Ghost Touch weapon will help. Ghost Touch weapons help if you are incorporeal, not ethereal. The description of Blink says that ethereal also means incorporeal, but I've seen that pointed out before as a big contradiction/mistake in the RAW. Elsewhere, ethereal doesn't seem to mean incorporeal.


Hide in Plain Sight only removes the necessity for cover or concealment (a place to Hide) that you need in order to make a check, and allows you to attempt a Hide check while people are observing you. There is nothing in the description of the Hide in Plain Site ability that states it removes any penalties to your Hide check, including the -20 penalty for Sniping.

The way I see it, the reason for the -20 penalty in the first place is that you are being observed if you attack. Therefore Hide in Plain Sight gets rid of it, in my mind ... but I admit I have no solid justification for that. Here's the relevant FAQ passage, btw, although I think it just made me more confused.


Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her
turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a
position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is,
invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the
character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class
features?
Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after
attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her
(even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The
sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a
character to make a move action to hide immediately after
making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but
this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with
reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply
can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed.
As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s
approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that
is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a
Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still
when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might
begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the
undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding
place within the plants, having never left the area of
concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she
made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide
check.
The third part of your question changes the situation
entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight
class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re
incredibly effective.
A character with the hide in plain sight class feature
(described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a
Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require
any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver).
The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with
sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making
the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t
need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would
allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although
that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a
place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or
concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be
hidden when she delivers the attack.
The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the
Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check
in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or
concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden,
move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack
while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer
the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has
Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make
a Hide check to hide after the attack.
Put all three of these elements together—such as in the
hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get:
D&D FAQ v.3.5 38 Update Version: 05/18/07
1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in
natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).
2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an
attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be
considered hiding when he attacks).
3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide
check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or
concealment while in natural terrain).
4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”

In any case, I still maintain that a PC who specializes in Hiding can usually make Hiding useful even with a -20 penalty. I mean, you can make up that -20 penalty just with a Skin of the Chameleon and Ring of Chameleon Power.


It's not immune to Turn or Rebuke. It counts as 2 HD higher for Turn and Rebuke. Considering how few HD it has, its still quite easy to get rid off.

The post above addressed this ...