Talionis
2015-11-09, 08:42 AM
I'm not sure if Wizards Boards are actually down or not, but I had trouble pulling it up last night and I knew I had it saved somewhere so here I'm reposting it for other people's consumption.
So, my gaming group has been building characters for several months right now, in the spirit of the old CO boards. There isn't much activity here, but in an effort to spur some extra discussion, I'll be sharing some of my work here on a weekly basis, aiming for a Friday posting. I welcome discussion of all sorts, so feel free to rip this to shreds, suggest improvements, or just *yoink* it wholesale for your games. (If you do, I'd love to hear about it.)
My group consists of two familiar names from the old CO board (Radical Taoist and DisposableHero_) along with three others (Andarious, Sionnis, and Seishi); whenever I showcase a build, I’ll identify its lead author in the immediate preamble (just before the build’s title). By no means should you assume I did all of these on my own – in fact, on some, my only contribution was to write up this post!
All of these builds, unless noted otherwise, assume 28 point buy and fractional base attack / saves (Unearthed Arcana; this dramatically simplifies the math and usually doesn't impact things much otherwise. If a build relies on fractional to work, I'll list a non-fractional variant as well); any expansion books and variant rules involved will be clearly identified, along with variants we've considered. I tend to do snapshots at significant levels, showing the rationale being specific choices and highlighting capabilities at key levels, rather than just presenting a giant table and summary and leaving it to you to figure out how to play them.
With that out of the way, let's get started. This week’s build (a little early since I won't be around for most of tomorrow) is primarily from Andarious – I only suggested two feats and a few substitutions early on, and he pulled out this jewel.
“A”-GAME PALADIN
Play that funky music, knight boy!
Required Books: Champions of Valor, Complete Champion, Races of Destiny, Dungeonscape, Eberron Campaign Setting (one feat), Book of Exalted Deeds (one feat), DMG2 (one item), MIC.
Unearthed Arcana used: None!
Background: Let’s not mince words: the paladin isn’t very good. It’s a solid Tier Five class, which – if you’re like most people I’ve met – is a bit below par. (In my experience, most people seem to think Tier Three is the sweet spot.) But bollocks to that, I say – let’s see if we can take a single-classed Paladin 20 and bring out his “A”-game through clever use of substitutions, but without stepping outside what we view the paladin as – a holy knight, a champion of good, a leader of men.
Turns out it’s actually pretty badass. In fact, this Paladin-20 build comes out pretty comparable to a Song of the White Raven Crusader (slightly less tough and moderately lower stamina, but significantly more magical with all the oomph that can provide), which is not a bad benchmark to hit at all, since the two are basically the same thing fluffwise and the latter's known to be very effective at its job (and in the Tier Three sweet spot to boot). And all it takes for the paladin to do this is throwing away Remove Disease (meh), the Special Mount (…okay) and Turn Undead (wtf?). Yes, it does it without divine feats.
Let's get rolling.
The Basics
Race: Illumian. Paladins are notoriously MAD, and this is the easiest way to reduce that. You even get a halo of sorts.
Ability Scores: 14/10/14/14/10/14. Put a point into Intelligence and Charisma at 4 and 8, then put the rest into Strength.
Skill Notes: You’re going to want some (at least 6) ranks in a vocal Perform skill, oddly enough. (3 of those ranks will be cross-class before level 3.) Other than that you’re pretty open, although you might find Concentration to be more worthwhile here than usual for a paladin, and you have reason to max out at least one Knowledge skill (probably Religion; you get Arcana as a class skill, but would have to buy it at cross-class rates most of the time). And while technically you could go all Return of the King with Perform (Oratory) and the build will work without any changes, we’re aiming for a different King (or Queen) for our knight's imagery and using Perform (Singing) in our example. Just trust me here – he will rock you.
Basic Equipment: No specific demands beyond what you’d expect for a warrior, or a paladin for that matter. However, you ditch the Special Mount, so you can more or less ignore mounted gear. Since you have Power Attack, you'll probably want a martial two-hander (and can pretty much freely pick for style), especially at the lower levels; at the higher levels, you'll probably switch to a one-hander and a shield (you will rely less on Power Attack for melee damage, your reasons to hold back grow, and the shield gives you a second slot for a wand chamber plus enough AC to survive being a high-priority target.)
Magical Gear Goals: You’ll want a Badge of Valor (MIC, it's part of the Regalia of the Hero set) as soon as possible (around level 4 or 5 ideally) and a Vest of Legends (DMG2, on your own you can probably afford it at or around level 14, but it can pay off for a party if they pool their money to buy it earlier: you're a party support machine, so investing in your inspiration ability is an investment in themselves. Compare the price of a vest to the price of upgrading everyone's weapons by an extra +1 and you'll see), and you don’t need a Wisdom booster at all. Other than that, just your standard warrior-paladin gear - +Strength, +Constitution, +Charisma, good weapon, good armor, and so on. As usual for most meleeist builds, I also suggest an Eternal Wand of Heroics or two - you've got Power Attack, but not a lot else on the melee front, so this opens up some nice flexibility. Unlike most of the builds showcased to this point, you can actually use Heroics without the wand, so keep that in mind. Finally, consider the Harmonizing enhancement if you're in a high-magic game: this can allow your sword to act as the Melodic Casting or Lingering Song feat depending on how you use it.
The Build.
Build Stub: Paladin 20.
Note: This does involve a bit of relaxation on the RP-specific components – it uses two different paladin orders (Mystra’s Order of the Mystic Fire and Melil’s Harmonious Knights). The result isn’t as crazy as that sounds: put them together and you basically transform parts of Paladin into parts of Bard, which would be almost indistinguishable in-world from multiclassing (and you're an illumian, who may as well have "multiclass" as their favored class). Plus it's a logical pairing, even if the actual multiclass is illegal: paladins are supposed to be inspirational, and in D&D, all to often that means bard.
1- Paladin – (Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1) (Power Attack) (Aesh sigil)
2 – Paladin – (Divine Grace, Lay on Hands) (Krau sigil, Aeshkrau power word)
*
3 – Paladin – (Aura of Courage, Divine Health) (From Smite To Song) (Inspire Courage +1)
*
4 – Mystic Fire Knight (Paladin) – (Improved Spellcasting, Bonus Spells) (1st level spells)
*
5 – Paladin – (Smite Evil 2, Divine Spirit – Healing)
*
6 – Harmonious Knight (Paladin) – (Inspire Competence) (Sword of the Arcane Order)
*
7 – Paladin – N/A
8 – Paladin – (2nd level spells) (Inspire Courage +2)
9 – Harmonious Knight (Paladin) – (Inspire Greatness 1) (Song of the Heart)
*
10 – Paladin – (Smite Evil 3)
11 – Paladin – (Divine Spirit –Combat) (3rd level spells)
*
12 – Paladin – (Inspire Greatness 2) (Battle Blessing) (Inspire Courage +3)
*
13 – Paladin – N/A
14 – Paladin – (4th level spells) (Inspire Courage +4)
15 – Paladin – (Inspire Greatness 3, Smite Evil 4) (Words of Creation)
*
16 – Paladin – (Divine Spirit – Heroism)
*
17 – Paladin – N/A
18 – Paladin – (Inspire Greatness 4) (Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin)
*
19 – Paladin – N/A
20 – Paladin – (Smite Evil 5, Divine Spirit – Fallen) (Inspire Courage +5)
*
Snapshot: With +6 items on Strength, Con, and Charisma, and a +5 Strength tome – pricey, but certainly workable, and that’s lesser MAD than usual – you have +20 base attack (with +34 melee with Greater Magic Weapon - which you can cast, although you can only get it to +4 without CL-improving gear), Inspire Courage at +10 (which means each swing of the sword is dealing half as much damage as your smites usually would, and is as accurate as a smite made with 30 Charisma, and your equipment can raise that even higher!), a paladin caster level of 18, spells per day of 7/6/6/6 (more than most bards' 1st-4th level slots, on par with a wizard), and the ability to fill those slots with wizard spells, using your Intelligence for the DC (normally a dump, but you needed 15 Int for Words of Creation, so you’ve got no problem casting 4th level spells, or Fox's Cunning it up to 19 for the biggest scrolls). Most of those spells will be best set up as buffs if you choose to fight (Polymorph, anyone?), and, since they’re cast as paladin spells, they bypass ASF by default and inherit the amazing super-speed-casting found in Battle Blessing. (Why, yes, I do feel like casting wizard spells as swift actions and then beating face like a boss. Just be advised that you do not have Melodic Casting, so cast first, then sing). As you’d expect for a paladin, you have a lot of hit points (214 on average, with 100 points of Lay on Hands and effects that grant an expanded LoH pool, temporary HP, or damage reduction) and good saves (+22/+11/+11) – the saves could be higher, I admit, but unlike most paladins this is a Strength character, not a Charisma character, and this snapshot doesn’t include Cloaks of Resistance or similar defensive gear.
Oh, for those keeping track at home? With Inspire Courage (using the Badge of Valor; the Vest of Legends isn’t useful at 20th but helps you reach this point sooner), Inspire Greatness (4 targets at once), Words of Creation, and the Spirit of Combat all active, your entire team is looking at +6d10 HD, +23 attack, +17 damage per attack, +4 Fortitude, and +12 on saves vs Fear (not counting your Aura of Courage if the spirit and your team happen to be near you) for 5 rounds (before either the Greatness or the Courage or both wears off; the spirit lasts 2 minutes). And instead of a (somewhat fragile) bard on the other end of that inspirational anthem, you find a fully armed and armored paladin, capable of power attacking for a full -20 and still coming out ahead on the attack rolls with this, and backing it up with amazing wizard support spells at almost full CL; he can freely cast those on the first and final round as swift actions without interrupting his song. (If one of them’s pyrotechnics, the crowd will go wild.) As I said at the outset, he will rock you.
Overall Strengths: Hi there. I am a paladin. I also Inspire Courage like the most optimized bard, and cast wizard spells in place of paladin spells if I want, at virtually full caster level. Oh, and it looks like I can use 9th level Wizard spells via a scroll, as simple as a vestigial d20 roll with a trivial buff. And, when push comes to shove, I have revival and healing abilities that keep the whole party standing – in your face, Crusader!
On top of this, your priority in selecting wizard spells is unusual – no-save spells of up to 4th level – but there’s a surprisingly large subset of those which fit you quite well even if you step outside the obvious buff areas areas, and thanks to Battle Blessing, they're not really made at any action cost to you as a warrior, leader, scroll-user or spirit summoner (all of which rely on your standard action, not your swift action). Feel like facing off in melee? Unlike most gishes, you pack the exclusive-to-paladins Bless Weapon spell and the wizard Keen Edge spell (which does not actually add the keen ability to the weapon, so these two spells actually seem to work together even though that probably isn't the intent), along with Haste and a host of wizard gish spells that trigger on a hit or on being hit. You want a “special” mount? Cast Phantom Steed; at CL 18 those are pretty badass transportation (albeit fragile; you might want to cast (or Eternal Wand) the Heroics spell first to get Mounted Combat.). You want to use spells offensively? Touch spells (some of which allow multiple touches via base attack, of which you're unmatched) tend to allow no save, and your CL to bypass SR is 18, nearly as good as full caster (and if you’re desperate, you can prepare Assay Resistance). Think Duskblade here. Oh, and despite having low Dexterity, you’re not too shabby on ray spells either – wizards tend to have no trouble hitting touch ACs with rays, and they have low base attack and a lowish Dexterity modifier (typical ranged touch +13 or so), and even the best ray gishes tend to peak at +16 base attack. The paladin’s full base attack allows it to easily exceed this (max ranged touch +20, with the ability to have Inspire Courage linger to boost that up to +30 or more). So yes, you can in fact bring the thunderbolts and lightning via Orb of Sound or Seeking Ray if you want – why not?
Overall Weaknesses: Oddly for a paladin, his Will save isn’t as high as it could be (decent for a warrior, but not up to usual paladin standards). Pumping Charisma even higher would help with this, but I didn’t want to over-invest in melee character gold taxes ability score boosters; you might want to get basic Resistance items sooner rather than later. Likewise, his save DCs for his spells are kind of weak, and are keyed to an unusual ability score now (Intelligence – your paladin spells still use Wisdom for the DC, but very few of those actually rely on DCs), so you're probably going to pick support spells, buffs, or binary effects rather than most offensive or battlefield control spells. Finally, it takes a relatively high level before the investment in inspiration abilities begins to pay off (8-10 or so, slightly earlier with gear), but it really picks up steam after that. (And, realistically, any full-base-attack class with decent equipment and Power Attack can hold his own pre-8 or so depending on the level of optimization in your team mages; warriors just tend to have trouble keeping up with Quadratic Wizards as levels increase. Here, you just shift gears from warrior to warlord, in effect taking a third option. So, I suppose, this isn't that much of a weakness.) Other than this, he’s got the usual melee-strategy weaknesses, but if you’re playing melee, you were prepared for that and are budgeting for it accordingly (flight, teleports, illusions, etc). Furthermore, it’s possible to shore up these to some extent (okay, a good extent) with wizard spells.
Variants: I’m not really sure what you’d want to exchange on this build. If you’re forced into sticking to just one paladin order, Harmonious Knight is probably the better choice – you’d need a replacement feat for Sword of the Arcane Order and perhaps Practiced Spellcaster, but that’s doable. Extra Smiting gives you more Inspire Courages (less efficient than Extra Music, but still helpful), Lingering Song (if you qualify, see the note at level 3) extends your Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatnesses (good if you need to stop singing to cast a spell – or sing the other song), and - since you dropped Mystic Fire Knight and thus retain Turn Undead - you could even consider divine feats that fit the theme (you have 21 Charisma and 8 turns/day. Since your inspiration already does the same sort of job as Divine Might, I'm not sure that's as effective a choice here as it usually is, so consider some non-typical divine feats. For instance, Divine Vigor (+speed and scaling temporary HP) mixes very well with the Heroism divine spirit (DR, Diehard, fast Lay on Hands) when you want to lead by example or hold off an impossible foe - and praying for a blessing from the gods to turn you from warrior into champion still fits the theme quite well). If you don’t want Words of Creation at your table – and it’s from the BoED, so I don’t blame you – I’d suggest working in a combat feat of your choice: it’s a pretty substantial loss, but not one you can’t go without, and if you aren't using Words, you may as well improve your personal combat prowess.
There you have it. Andarious managed to make something single-classed with an under-used class that, I think, would be both fun to play AND a blast to fight alongside. Who knew the paladin could bring an "A"-Game that useful?
As always, commentary is welcome. Suggestions to improve this, play experiences, or even just groaning at me for some of those link puns along the way are all fair game.
I've decided to mix things up a bit this time by presenting a selection of builds for next week; pick one and it'll go up. (This makes more sense than just soliciting archetypes in a vacuum.) However, to preserve the air of suspense, the names will be all we'll work with. Next week is going to be either RadicalTaoist's Uncanny Trapsmith, my Storm Knight, or Andarious' Wizsassin. Let me know which one seems most interesting to you and we'll have it up next week.
…You think that’s enough Queen references? Sorry, Andarious, Fat Bottomed Girls was just too much of a stretch.
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#2 May 10, 2012 20:20:07
draco1119
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Trapsmith. And if you'd kept the paladin's mount, I'm sure you would have been able to work in Bicycles somewhere.
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#3 May 10, 2012 20:25:35
deoxhydroxinate
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I'd love to see the Uncanny Trapsmith action next.
As far as the Paladin goes, were you able to snag Divine Might at all? You're already going to meet the pre-reqs (PA and base attack I think). With Power Attack and Bless Weapon that's a sizeable damage boost.
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#4 May 10, 2012 20:59:01
aelryinth
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Is remove disease on the paladin spell list? If so, you truly will never miss it with all the extra spells you can cast.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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#5 May 10, 2012 21:24:24
Unahim
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I know where I'm getting my inspiration next time I want to play something bardy or paladiny :p Also, Trapsmith, defnitely.
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#6 May 10, 2012 23:20:44
Tempest_Stormwind
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Fair warning: I'm fresh back from the pub, so this might be a bit rambling.
Trapsmith. And if you'd kept the paladin's mount, I'm sure you would have been able to work in Bicycles somewhere.
Oh, I managed to work that one in there already - along with a beautiful illustration of how gimmicky the mount tends to be in non-specialist builds. Check level 5. (Still, I don't think I've quite reached critical Queen density on this one yet... needs Moar Freddie.)
Either way, it should be pretty obvious I had a good time writing this one up, so don't stop me now!
I'd love to see the Uncanny Trapsmith action next.
As far as the Paladin goes, were you able to snag Divine Might at all? You're already going to meet the pre-reqs (PA and base attack I think). With Power Attack and Bless Weapon that's a sizeable damage boost.
It's amazing to see how conditioned we are to the conventional when an unconventional build shows up, isn't it? I love me some Divine Might, but honestly, this approach doesn't actually need it and outperforms what it's capable of providing! (Even with that, before I remembered the Mystic Fire Knight, that was my thought as well - same conditioning: paladin = divine might - but we couldn't fit the feats in until it was really late in the build. Then I spotted the Mystic Fire Knight, and looked at the numbers from Inspire Courage at the point Divine Might would have come online, and, well, it kind of became superfluous.)
The reason it isn't in the final build is because we don't meet the prereqs: This build exchanges Turn Undead for the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels, which give dramatically improved spellcasting (which, thanks to Sword of the Arcane Order, is essentially lower-mid wizard spellcasting, just apparently using my paladin caster level and casting as divine spells. Sword of the Arcane Order has a few quirks to it that need DM rulings, but even with that the stuff it clearly lets you do is bloody awesome).
Furthermore, this is not a Charisma-centric build (it's Strength-centric; thanks to Aeshkrau, Strength governs your bonus spell slots as well as your melee prowess): the only real use CHA has is Divine Gracem since you're using up all your smites for inspirationm and Lay on Hands mostly window dressing anyway (and to the extent that it isn't window dressing, we have the healing spirit, basically tripling your normal LoH capacity). Now, Divine Grace is a good boost, don't get me wrong, so high Charisma is still worth it... but not beyond what +CHA items can do. Divine Might is out of this build's reach. As are all other divine feats.
Of course, with wizard spells at almost full CL you can easily outdo what Divine Grace normally provides. Polymorph alone is a good example of what this can provide. On the one hand, a turn attempt for +CHA damage to all attacks for 1 round. On the other, every wizard buff ever printed, several of which can easily outdo this, castable as a swift action. I don't think that's much of a tradeoff.
Mind you, if your DM forces you to stick to one paladin order in spite of the beautiful cohesion here, and you take the variant advice that drops Mystic Fire Knight, you keep Turn Undead and should be able to grab Divine Might (or some of the other Divine feats that fit the theme - Divine Vigor fits the party support theme better, for instance). I'd need to double check if you can grab Divine Might through Heroics to see if that would be worth it, though. (Still, if the DM doesn't add this restriction, you honestly won't need it. From Smite To Song with this build gives you enough badassery to get Divine Might to cry for help.)
Is remove disease on the paladin spell list? If so, you truly will never miss it with all the extra spells you can cast.
==Aelryinth
It isn't, but you have the right idea. Most of these builds assume Greater Magic Weapon in their calculations (any team is realisticaly going to use that at level 20, which is when the snapshots are taken), and if they have access to that, chances are they have access to Remove Disease on the rare occasons it shows up in-game.
Not to mention diseases take a LONG time to manifest (incubation time measured in days), so unless you're on a very long, multi-day adventure without a cleric or druid (and remember, the A-Game Paladin doesn't fill the same role as these characters, so they're probably on your team), you probably don't need Remove Disease anyway. When you do, and you're lacking a cleric/druid, there's always NPC adepts - and the AEG guidelines for retainers suggests keeping one "on call" isn't exactly expensive either.
I know where I'm getting my inspiration next time I want to play something bardy or paladiny :p Also, Trapsmith, defnitely.
Thanks. And the Uncanny Trapsmith is looking like it's next week's showing. (We have a policy of whoever builds the build, names it. Sometimes, the name is purely descriptive - things like AoE Stunsplosion, A-Game Ranger (yes, Andarious did something similar to this for the ranger as well!), or the Heavy Crusader - whie other times the build name is kind of cryptic. If RadicalTaoist had let me name the Uncanny Trapsmith, I probably would have named it "MacGyver Q. Branch". But a name's a name, and it looks like people really want to see the Uncanny Trapsmith. So it's up next!)
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#7 May 11, 2012 11:33:19
deoxhydroxinate
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I had totally forgot that you were giving up Turning so yeah, you wouldn't be able to fuel Divine Might (or any divine feat really). Although everything really does fit very nicely together, I know a few DMs that probably wouldn't like the idea of going from order to order, hence the original suggestion.
I really liked the fluff of Illumian, and it just so happens that keying things off Strength make it a lot easier. I think there's both a Serenity ACF and a Serenity-esque feat. One of which keys your spellcasting off charisma, and the other keying everything off Wisdom (I can't recall exactly)? An interesting approach I would imagine to help reduce MAD (though making things key off strength is really a strong way to go).
Was this built to show that a 20 straight Paladin could still be very effective and flavorful and PrCs were kind of left by the wayside? If not, there are a couple (IMO) really fit the fluff of a paladin and give them a decent boost. The first is Divine Crusader (from C. Divine). Accellerrated casting from a domain (Competition is nice). The other is Divine Champion (PGtF), lay on hands progression (not fantastic, but since you're already progressing it and giving it additional use, it's not a bad idea), some DR, a cool rage-esque ability, some bonus feats, and a smite that can be used against practically any creature (the restriction is must worship a different or no deity!). Yours is probably better than incorporating either of those, I just feel they fit extremely well with your concept.
Overall, I love the character. Paladins have been one of my favorites for a long time and it's nice to see them get some love. In the games I run, I always work with the player who has decided to play one to help them get nice things (like help round out a stat or two).
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#8 May 11, 2012 17:55:27
Tempest_Stormwind
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Was this built to show that a 20 straight Paladin could still be very effective and flavorful and PrCs were kind of left by the wayside?
The "A"-Game Ranger came first, where Andarious was trying to get a ranger using all of its key powers being keyed off of a single stat as well. I suggested Sword of the Arcane Order to expand on what it could do (the reason why only makes sense once the Wizsassin is posted, I'm afraid), the conversation switched to paladin, then I brought up Smite to Song. PrCs kind of never entered the picture. It helps that the Divine Spirit in Dungeonscape is bloody awesome, and you don't get the Spirit of the Fallen except as a paladin capstone.
Overall, I love the character. Paladins have been one of my favorites for a long time and it's nice to see them get some love. In the games I run, I always work with the player who has decided to play one to help them get nice things (like help round out a stat or two).
Glad you like it! I hope it proves useful.
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#9 Jun 27, 2012 20:54:11
Tempest_Stormwind
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I noticed a critical flaw in the build (neither Andarious nor I remembered the Paladin's poor Will save when determining when Words of Creation came online), so I've edited the build to fix that. It doesn't change anything too serious - if anything, it gives the build more sane progression, since Words is basically bardic music nitro and it makes more sense for that to appear at levels where magic allows superheroic abilities as opposed to merely wuxia abilities. The revision also brings Battle Blessing online much sooner (12th instead of 18th) so it'll see much more use, though it delays Practiced Spellcaster a bit (it isn't needed quite so early anyway).
Along the way I've also edited in a bunch of other notes along the way, addressing in particular a problem with using non-"Bardic Music" effects with effects that improve Inspire Courage. (This is discussed at level 3 - it's not as bad as it seems.) I also expanded the Variants section a bit, including mentioning Divine Might (in the version that drops Mystic Fire Knight if you don't like using two thematically-related paladin orders). There's even a few notes now about the non-musical abilities of Words of Creation: they were always appropriate (as you might have guessed for an illumian paladin), but now they're explicitly mentioned here.
Sadly, this reduces the density of Queen references, but I'll go back and add in a few more as I go. Even though no one's likely to play this build as Freddie Mercurial Greatsword ( ), the writeup just isn't the same without the music.
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#10 May 13, 2013 1:45:09
RPGBG
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I have been contemplating giving this build a spin, but not being able to cast while playing is a bit of a downer for me. I was considering getting a martial maneuver, preferably a boost (via item), and a martial stance with heroics - can anyone suggest me a good maneuver-stance combo? ToBlades is nice, but the build can't afford the AoO infrastructure to made good use of it. BitWater is another low level gem, but I guess it favors better crit range and number of attacks.
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#11 May 13, 2013 10:39:28
Tempest_Stormwind
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I have been contemplating giving this build a spin,
Happy to hear it!
but not being able to cast while playing is a bit of a downer for me.
We've found that if this matters, you can simply stop singing. Inspire Courage lingers for 5 rounds after you stop singing, which is probably going to be on round 2 of the battle anyway - a battle that lasts 7 rounds is rare (and quite worth giving up Inspire Courage for spell support!).
I was considering getting a martial maneuver, preferably a boost (via item), and a martial stance with heroics - can anyone suggest me a good maneuver-stance combo? ToBlades is nice, but the build can't afford the AoO infrastructure to made good use of it. BitWater is another low level gem, but I guess it favors better crit range and number of attacks.
In your case, the best one is probably Leading the Charge - it stacks with all of your buffs. It doesn't have a prerequisite (as a stance; the Martial Stance feat still requires a maneuver though), so any White Raven maneuver that has no prerequisite will work fine for you. The best of these is easily White Raven Tactics, but that does require a maneuver to take, so it won't be usable without martial scripts. Battle Leader's Charge is a simple but effective maneuver available at a reasonably low level (6th for you, assuming you get a source for it), and it combines quite nicely with the no-nonsense Inspire Courage boosts and Power Attack that you're packing, but you might find it difficult to make it truly menacing (which involves swift-action singing and the use of charge-based skill tricks, which all seem to require skills that aren't on your list - these are areas that a Song of the White Raven crusader can do that the A-Game Paladin cannot do (easily)).
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So, my gaming group has been building characters for several months right now, in the spirit of the old CO boards. There isn't much activity here, but in an effort to spur some extra discussion, I'll be sharing some of my work here on a weekly basis, aiming for a Friday posting. I welcome discussion of all sorts, so feel free to rip this to shreds, suggest improvements, or just *yoink* it wholesale for your games. (If you do, I'd love to hear about it.)
My group consists of two familiar names from the old CO board (Radical Taoist and DisposableHero_) along with three others (Andarious, Sionnis, and Seishi); whenever I showcase a build, I’ll identify its lead author in the immediate preamble (just before the build’s title). By no means should you assume I did all of these on my own – in fact, on some, my only contribution was to write up this post!
All of these builds, unless noted otherwise, assume 28 point buy and fractional base attack / saves (Unearthed Arcana; this dramatically simplifies the math and usually doesn't impact things much otherwise. If a build relies on fractional to work, I'll list a non-fractional variant as well); any expansion books and variant rules involved will be clearly identified, along with variants we've considered. I tend to do snapshots at significant levels, showing the rationale being specific choices and highlighting capabilities at key levels, rather than just presenting a giant table and summary and leaving it to you to figure out how to play them.
With that out of the way, let's get started. This week’s build (a little early since I won't be around for most of tomorrow) is primarily from Andarious – I only suggested two feats and a few substitutions early on, and he pulled out this jewel.
“A”-GAME PALADIN
Play that funky music, knight boy!
Required Books: Champions of Valor, Complete Champion, Races of Destiny, Dungeonscape, Eberron Campaign Setting (one feat), Book of Exalted Deeds (one feat), DMG2 (one item), MIC.
Unearthed Arcana used: None!
Background: Let’s not mince words: the paladin isn’t very good. It’s a solid Tier Five class, which – if you’re like most people I’ve met – is a bit below par. (In my experience, most people seem to think Tier Three is the sweet spot.) But bollocks to that, I say – let’s see if we can take a single-classed Paladin 20 and bring out his “A”-game through clever use of substitutions, but without stepping outside what we view the paladin as – a holy knight, a champion of good, a leader of men.
Turns out it’s actually pretty badass. In fact, this Paladin-20 build comes out pretty comparable to a Song of the White Raven Crusader (slightly less tough and moderately lower stamina, but significantly more magical with all the oomph that can provide), which is not a bad benchmark to hit at all, since the two are basically the same thing fluffwise and the latter's known to be very effective at its job (and in the Tier Three sweet spot to boot). And all it takes for the paladin to do this is throwing away Remove Disease (meh), the Special Mount (…okay) and Turn Undead (wtf?). Yes, it does it without divine feats.
Let's get rolling.
The Basics
Race: Illumian. Paladins are notoriously MAD, and this is the easiest way to reduce that. You even get a halo of sorts.
Ability Scores: 14/10/14/14/10/14. Put a point into Intelligence and Charisma at 4 and 8, then put the rest into Strength.
Skill Notes: You’re going to want some (at least 6) ranks in a vocal Perform skill, oddly enough. (3 of those ranks will be cross-class before level 3.) Other than that you’re pretty open, although you might find Concentration to be more worthwhile here than usual for a paladin, and you have reason to max out at least one Knowledge skill (probably Religion; you get Arcana as a class skill, but would have to buy it at cross-class rates most of the time). And while technically you could go all Return of the King with Perform (Oratory) and the build will work without any changes, we’re aiming for a different King (or Queen) for our knight's imagery and using Perform (Singing) in our example. Just trust me here – he will rock you.
Basic Equipment: No specific demands beyond what you’d expect for a warrior, or a paladin for that matter. However, you ditch the Special Mount, so you can more or less ignore mounted gear. Since you have Power Attack, you'll probably want a martial two-hander (and can pretty much freely pick for style), especially at the lower levels; at the higher levels, you'll probably switch to a one-hander and a shield (you will rely less on Power Attack for melee damage, your reasons to hold back grow, and the shield gives you a second slot for a wand chamber plus enough AC to survive being a high-priority target.)
Magical Gear Goals: You’ll want a Badge of Valor (MIC, it's part of the Regalia of the Hero set) as soon as possible (around level 4 or 5 ideally) and a Vest of Legends (DMG2, on your own you can probably afford it at or around level 14, but it can pay off for a party if they pool their money to buy it earlier: you're a party support machine, so investing in your inspiration ability is an investment in themselves. Compare the price of a vest to the price of upgrading everyone's weapons by an extra +1 and you'll see), and you don’t need a Wisdom booster at all. Other than that, just your standard warrior-paladin gear - +Strength, +Constitution, +Charisma, good weapon, good armor, and so on. As usual for most meleeist builds, I also suggest an Eternal Wand of Heroics or two - you've got Power Attack, but not a lot else on the melee front, so this opens up some nice flexibility. Unlike most of the builds showcased to this point, you can actually use Heroics without the wand, so keep that in mind. Finally, consider the Harmonizing enhancement if you're in a high-magic game: this can allow your sword to act as the Melodic Casting or Lingering Song feat depending on how you use it.
The Build.
Build Stub: Paladin 20.
Note: This does involve a bit of relaxation on the RP-specific components – it uses two different paladin orders (Mystra’s Order of the Mystic Fire and Melil’s Harmonious Knights). The result isn’t as crazy as that sounds: put them together and you basically transform parts of Paladin into parts of Bard, which would be almost indistinguishable in-world from multiclassing (and you're an illumian, who may as well have "multiclass" as their favored class). Plus it's a logical pairing, even if the actual multiclass is illegal: paladins are supposed to be inspirational, and in D&D, all to often that means bard.
1- Paladin – (Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1) (Power Attack) (Aesh sigil)
2 – Paladin – (Divine Grace, Lay on Hands) (Krau sigil, Aeshkrau power word)
*
3 – Paladin – (Aura of Courage, Divine Health) (From Smite To Song) (Inspire Courage +1)
*
4 – Mystic Fire Knight (Paladin) – (Improved Spellcasting, Bonus Spells) (1st level spells)
*
5 – Paladin – (Smite Evil 2, Divine Spirit – Healing)
*
6 – Harmonious Knight (Paladin) – (Inspire Competence) (Sword of the Arcane Order)
*
7 – Paladin – N/A
8 – Paladin – (2nd level spells) (Inspire Courage +2)
9 – Harmonious Knight (Paladin) – (Inspire Greatness 1) (Song of the Heart)
*
10 – Paladin – (Smite Evil 3)
11 – Paladin – (Divine Spirit –Combat) (3rd level spells)
*
12 – Paladin – (Inspire Greatness 2) (Battle Blessing) (Inspire Courage +3)
*
13 – Paladin – N/A
14 – Paladin – (4th level spells) (Inspire Courage +4)
15 – Paladin – (Inspire Greatness 3, Smite Evil 4) (Words of Creation)
*
16 – Paladin – (Divine Spirit – Heroism)
*
17 – Paladin – N/A
18 – Paladin – (Inspire Greatness 4) (Practiced Spellcaster - Paladin)
*
19 – Paladin – N/A
20 – Paladin – (Smite Evil 5, Divine Spirit – Fallen) (Inspire Courage +5)
*
Snapshot: With +6 items on Strength, Con, and Charisma, and a +5 Strength tome – pricey, but certainly workable, and that’s lesser MAD than usual – you have +20 base attack (with +34 melee with Greater Magic Weapon - which you can cast, although you can only get it to +4 without CL-improving gear), Inspire Courage at +10 (which means each swing of the sword is dealing half as much damage as your smites usually would, and is as accurate as a smite made with 30 Charisma, and your equipment can raise that even higher!), a paladin caster level of 18, spells per day of 7/6/6/6 (more than most bards' 1st-4th level slots, on par with a wizard), and the ability to fill those slots with wizard spells, using your Intelligence for the DC (normally a dump, but you needed 15 Int for Words of Creation, so you’ve got no problem casting 4th level spells, or Fox's Cunning it up to 19 for the biggest scrolls). Most of those spells will be best set up as buffs if you choose to fight (Polymorph, anyone?), and, since they’re cast as paladin spells, they bypass ASF by default and inherit the amazing super-speed-casting found in Battle Blessing. (Why, yes, I do feel like casting wizard spells as swift actions and then beating face like a boss. Just be advised that you do not have Melodic Casting, so cast first, then sing). As you’d expect for a paladin, you have a lot of hit points (214 on average, with 100 points of Lay on Hands and effects that grant an expanded LoH pool, temporary HP, or damage reduction) and good saves (+22/+11/+11) – the saves could be higher, I admit, but unlike most paladins this is a Strength character, not a Charisma character, and this snapshot doesn’t include Cloaks of Resistance or similar defensive gear.
Oh, for those keeping track at home? With Inspire Courage (using the Badge of Valor; the Vest of Legends isn’t useful at 20th but helps you reach this point sooner), Inspire Greatness (4 targets at once), Words of Creation, and the Spirit of Combat all active, your entire team is looking at +6d10 HD, +23 attack, +17 damage per attack, +4 Fortitude, and +12 on saves vs Fear (not counting your Aura of Courage if the spirit and your team happen to be near you) for 5 rounds (before either the Greatness or the Courage or both wears off; the spirit lasts 2 minutes). And instead of a (somewhat fragile) bard on the other end of that inspirational anthem, you find a fully armed and armored paladin, capable of power attacking for a full -20 and still coming out ahead on the attack rolls with this, and backing it up with amazing wizard support spells at almost full CL; he can freely cast those on the first and final round as swift actions without interrupting his song. (If one of them’s pyrotechnics, the crowd will go wild.) As I said at the outset, he will rock you.
Overall Strengths: Hi there. I am a paladin. I also Inspire Courage like the most optimized bard, and cast wizard spells in place of paladin spells if I want, at virtually full caster level. Oh, and it looks like I can use 9th level Wizard spells via a scroll, as simple as a vestigial d20 roll with a trivial buff. And, when push comes to shove, I have revival and healing abilities that keep the whole party standing – in your face, Crusader!
On top of this, your priority in selecting wizard spells is unusual – no-save spells of up to 4th level – but there’s a surprisingly large subset of those which fit you quite well even if you step outside the obvious buff areas areas, and thanks to Battle Blessing, they're not really made at any action cost to you as a warrior, leader, scroll-user or spirit summoner (all of which rely on your standard action, not your swift action). Feel like facing off in melee? Unlike most gishes, you pack the exclusive-to-paladins Bless Weapon spell and the wizard Keen Edge spell (which does not actually add the keen ability to the weapon, so these two spells actually seem to work together even though that probably isn't the intent), along with Haste and a host of wizard gish spells that trigger on a hit or on being hit. You want a “special” mount? Cast Phantom Steed; at CL 18 those are pretty badass transportation (albeit fragile; you might want to cast (or Eternal Wand) the Heroics spell first to get Mounted Combat.). You want to use spells offensively? Touch spells (some of which allow multiple touches via base attack, of which you're unmatched) tend to allow no save, and your CL to bypass SR is 18, nearly as good as full caster (and if you’re desperate, you can prepare Assay Resistance). Think Duskblade here. Oh, and despite having low Dexterity, you’re not too shabby on ray spells either – wizards tend to have no trouble hitting touch ACs with rays, and they have low base attack and a lowish Dexterity modifier (typical ranged touch +13 or so), and even the best ray gishes tend to peak at +16 base attack. The paladin’s full base attack allows it to easily exceed this (max ranged touch +20, with the ability to have Inspire Courage linger to boost that up to +30 or more). So yes, you can in fact bring the thunderbolts and lightning via Orb of Sound or Seeking Ray if you want – why not?
Overall Weaknesses: Oddly for a paladin, his Will save isn’t as high as it could be (decent for a warrior, but not up to usual paladin standards). Pumping Charisma even higher would help with this, but I didn’t want to over-invest in melee character gold taxes ability score boosters; you might want to get basic Resistance items sooner rather than later. Likewise, his save DCs for his spells are kind of weak, and are keyed to an unusual ability score now (Intelligence – your paladin spells still use Wisdom for the DC, but very few of those actually rely on DCs), so you're probably going to pick support spells, buffs, or binary effects rather than most offensive or battlefield control spells. Finally, it takes a relatively high level before the investment in inspiration abilities begins to pay off (8-10 or so, slightly earlier with gear), but it really picks up steam after that. (And, realistically, any full-base-attack class with decent equipment and Power Attack can hold his own pre-8 or so depending on the level of optimization in your team mages; warriors just tend to have trouble keeping up with Quadratic Wizards as levels increase. Here, you just shift gears from warrior to warlord, in effect taking a third option. So, I suppose, this isn't that much of a weakness.) Other than this, he’s got the usual melee-strategy weaknesses, but if you’re playing melee, you were prepared for that and are budgeting for it accordingly (flight, teleports, illusions, etc). Furthermore, it’s possible to shore up these to some extent (okay, a good extent) with wizard spells.
Variants: I’m not really sure what you’d want to exchange on this build. If you’re forced into sticking to just one paladin order, Harmonious Knight is probably the better choice – you’d need a replacement feat for Sword of the Arcane Order and perhaps Practiced Spellcaster, but that’s doable. Extra Smiting gives you more Inspire Courages (less efficient than Extra Music, but still helpful), Lingering Song (if you qualify, see the note at level 3) extends your Inspire Courage or Inspire Greatnesses (good if you need to stop singing to cast a spell – or sing the other song), and - since you dropped Mystic Fire Knight and thus retain Turn Undead - you could even consider divine feats that fit the theme (you have 21 Charisma and 8 turns/day. Since your inspiration already does the same sort of job as Divine Might, I'm not sure that's as effective a choice here as it usually is, so consider some non-typical divine feats. For instance, Divine Vigor (+speed and scaling temporary HP) mixes very well with the Heroism divine spirit (DR, Diehard, fast Lay on Hands) when you want to lead by example or hold off an impossible foe - and praying for a blessing from the gods to turn you from warrior into champion still fits the theme quite well). If you don’t want Words of Creation at your table – and it’s from the BoED, so I don’t blame you – I’d suggest working in a combat feat of your choice: it’s a pretty substantial loss, but not one you can’t go without, and if you aren't using Words, you may as well improve your personal combat prowess.
There you have it. Andarious managed to make something single-classed with an under-used class that, I think, would be both fun to play AND a blast to fight alongside. Who knew the paladin could bring an "A"-Game that useful?
As always, commentary is welcome. Suggestions to improve this, play experiences, or even just groaning at me for some of those link puns along the way are all fair game.
I've decided to mix things up a bit this time by presenting a selection of builds for next week; pick one and it'll go up. (This makes more sense than just soliciting archetypes in a vacuum.) However, to preserve the air of suspense, the names will be all we'll work with. Next week is going to be either RadicalTaoist's Uncanny Trapsmith, my Storm Knight, or Andarious' Wizsassin. Let me know which one seems most interesting to you and we'll have it up next week.
…You think that’s enough Queen references? Sorry, Andarious, Fat Bottomed Girls was just too much of a stretch.
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#2 May 10, 2012 20:20:07
draco1119
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Trapsmith. And if you'd kept the paladin's mount, I'm sure you would have been able to work in Bicycles somewhere.
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#3 May 10, 2012 20:25:35
deoxhydroxinate
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I'd love to see the Uncanny Trapsmith action next.
As far as the Paladin goes, were you able to snag Divine Might at all? You're already going to meet the pre-reqs (PA and base attack I think). With Power Attack and Bless Weapon that's a sizeable damage boost.
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#4 May 10, 2012 20:59:01
aelryinth
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Is remove disease on the paladin spell list? If so, you truly will never miss it with all the extra spells you can cast.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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#5 May 10, 2012 21:24:24
Unahim
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I know where I'm getting my inspiration next time I want to play something bardy or paladiny :p Also, Trapsmith, defnitely.
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#6 May 10, 2012 23:20:44
Tempest_Stormwind
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Fair warning: I'm fresh back from the pub, so this might be a bit rambling.
Trapsmith. And if you'd kept the paladin's mount, I'm sure you would have been able to work in Bicycles somewhere.
Oh, I managed to work that one in there already - along with a beautiful illustration of how gimmicky the mount tends to be in non-specialist builds. Check level 5. (Still, I don't think I've quite reached critical Queen density on this one yet... needs Moar Freddie.)
Either way, it should be pretty obvious I had a good time writing this one up, so don't stop me now!
I'd love to see the Uncanny Trapsmith action next.
As far as the Paladin goes, were you able to snag Divine Might at all? You're already going to meet the pre-reqs (PA and base attack I think). With Power Attack and Bless Weapon that's a sizeable damage boost.
It's amazing to see how conditioned we are to the conventional when an unconventional build shows up, isn't it? I love me some Divine Might, but honestly, this approach doesn't actually need it and outperforms what it's capable of providing! (Even with that, before I remembered the Mystic Fire Knight, that was my thought as well - same conditioning: paladin = divine might - but we couldn't fit the feats in until it was really late in the build. Then I spotted the Mystic Fire Knight, and looked at the numbers from Inspire Courage at the point Divine Might would have come online, and, well, it kind of became superfluous.)
The reason it isn't in the final build is because we don't meet the prereqs: This build exchanges Turn Undead for the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels, which give dramatically improved spellcasting (which, thanks to Sword of the Arcane Order, is essentially lower-mid wizard spellcasting, just apparently using my paladin caster level and casting as divine spells. Sword of the Arcane Order has a few quirks to it that need DM rulings, but even with that the stuff it clearly lets you do is bloody awesome).
Furthermore, this is not a Charisma-centric build (it's Strength-centric; thanks to Aeshkrau, Strength governs your bonus spell slots as well as your melee prowess): the only real use CHA has is Divine Gracem since you're using up all your smites for inspirationm and Lay on Hands mostly window dressing anyway (and to the extent that it isn't window dressing, we have the healing spirit, basically tripling your normal LoH capacity). Now, Divine Grace is a good boost, don't get me wrong, so high Charisma is still worth it... but not beyond what +CHA items can do. Divine Might is out of this build's reach. As are all other divine feats.
Of course, with wizard spells at almost full CL you can easily outdo what Divine Grace normally provides. Polymorph alone is a good example of what this can provide. On the one hand, a turn attempt for +CHA damage to all attacks for 1 round. On the other, every wizard buff ever printed, several of which can easily outdo this, castable as a swift action. I don't think that's much of a tradeoff.
Mind you, if your DM forces you to stick to one paladin order in spite of the beautiful cohesion here, and you take the variant advice that drops Mystic Fire Knight, you keep Turn Undead and should be able to grab Divine Might (or some of the other Divine feats that fit the theme - Divine Vigor fits the party support theme better, for instance). I'd need to double check if you can grab Divine Might through Heroics to see if that would be worth it, though. (Still, if the DM doesn't add this restriction, you honestly won't need it. From Smite To Song with this build gives you enough badassery to get Divine Might to cry for help.)
Is remove disease on the paladin spell list? If so, you truly will never miss it with all the extra spells you can cast.
==Aelryinth
It isn't, but you have the right idea. Most of these builds assume Greater Magic Weapon in their calculations (any team is realisticaly going to use that at level 20, which is when the snapshots are taken), and if they have access to that, chances are they have access to Remove Disease on the rare occasons it shows up in-game.
Not to mention diseases take a LONG time to manifest (incubation time measured in days), so unless you're on a very long, multi-day adventure without a cleric or druid (and remember, the A-Game Paladin doesn't fill the same role as these characters, so they're probably on your team), you probably don't need Remove Disease anyway. When you do, and you're lacking a cleric/druid, there's always NPC adepts - and the AEG guidelines for retainers suggests keeping one "on call" isn't exactly expensive either.
I know where I'm getting my inspiration next time I want to play something bardy or paladiny :p Also, Trapsmith, defnitely.
Thanks. And the Uncanny Trapsmith is looking like it's next week's showing. (We have a policy of whoever builds the build, names it. Sometimes, the name is purely descriptive - things like AoE Stunsplosion, A-Game Ranger (yes, Andarious did something similar to this for the ranger as well!), or the Heavy Crusader - whie other times the build name is kind of cryptic. If RadicalTaoist had let me name the Uncanny Trapsmith, I probably would have named it "MacGyver Q. Branch". But a name's a name, and it looks like people really want to see the Uncanny Trapsmith. So it's up next!)
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#7 May 11, 2012 11:33:19
deoxhydroxinate
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I had totally forgot that you were giving up Turning so yeah, you wouldn't be able to fuel Divine Might (or any divine feat really). Although everything really does fit very nicely together, I know a few DMs that probably wouldn't like the idea of going from order to order, hence the original suggestion.
I really liked the fluff of Illumian, and it just so happens that keying things off Strength make it a lot easier. I think there's both a Serenity ACF and a Serenity-esque feat. One of which keys your spellcasting off charisma, and the other keying everything off Wisdom (I can't recall exactly)? An interesting approach I would imagine to help reduce MAD (though making things key off strength is really a strong way to go).
Was this built to show that a 20 straight Paladin could still be very effective and flavorful and PrCs were kind of left by the wayside? If not, there are a couple (IMO) really fit the fluff of a paladin and give them a decent boost. The first is Divine Crusader (from C. Divine). Accellerrated casting from a domain (Competition is nice). The other is Divine Champion (PGtF), lay on hands progression (not fantastic, but since you're already progressing it and giving it additional use, it's not a bad idea), some DR, a cool rage-esque ability, some bonus feats, and a smite that can be used against practically any creature (the restriction is must worship a different or no deity!). Yours is probably better than incorporating either of those, I just feel they fit extremely well with your concept.
Overall, I love the character. Paladins have been one of my favorites for a long time and it's nice to see them get some love. In the games I run, I always work with the player who has decided to play one to help them get nice things (like help round out a stat or two).
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#8 May 11, 2012 17:55:27
Tempest_Stormwind
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Was this built to show that a 20 straight Paladin could still be very effective and flavorful and PrCs were kind of left by the wayside?
The "A"-Game Ranger came first, where Andarious was trying to get a ranger using all of its key powers being keyed off of a single stat as well. I suggested Sword of the Arcane Order to expand on what it could do (the reason why only makes sense once the Wizsassin is posted, I'm afraid), the conversation switched to paladin, then I brought up Smite to Song. PrCs kind of never entered the picture. It helps that the Divine Spirit in Dungeonscape is bloody awesome, and you don't get the Spirit of the Fallen except as a paladin capstone.
Overall, I love the character. Paladins have been one of my favorites for a long time and it's nice to see them get some love. In the games I run, I always work with the player who has decided to play one to help them get nice things (like help round out a stat or two).
Glad you like it! I hope it proves useful.
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#9 Jun 27, 2012 20:54:11
Tempest_Stormwind
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I noticed a critical flaw in the build (neither Andarious nor I remembered the Paladin's poor Will save when determining when Words of Creation came online), so I've edited the build to fix that. It doesn't change anything too serious - if anything, it gives the build more sane progression, since Words is basically bardic music nitro and it makes more sense for that to appear at levels where magic allows superheroic abilities as opposed to merely wuxia abilities. The revision also brings Battle Blessing online much sooner (12th instead of 18th) so it'll see much more use, though it delays Practiced Spellcaster a bit (it isn't needed quite so early anyway).
Along the way I've also edited in a bunch of other notes along the way, addressing in particular a problem with using non-"Bardic Music" effects with effects that improve Inspire Courage. (This is discussed at level 3 - it's not as bad as it seems.) I also expanded the Variants section a bit, including mentioning Divine Might (in the version that drops Mystic Fire Knight if you don't like using two thematically-related paladin orders). There's even a few notes now about the non-musical abilities of Words of Creation: they were always appropriate (as you might have guessed for an illumian paladin), but now they're explicitly mentioned here.
Sadly, this reduces the density of Queen references, but I'll go back and add in a few more as I go. Even though no one's likely to play this build as Freddie Mercurial Greatsword ( ), the writeup just isn't the same without the music.
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3.5: Definitive Shopping List (gear guide PDF)
5e Eberron homebrew rules (PDF) (Artificer, Warforged, Changeling, Kalashtar, Shifter, Dragonmarks, Magic Item Economy) | Discussion thread
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#10 May 13, 2013 1:45:09
RPGBG
Joined Mar 2009
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I have been contemplating giving this build a spin, but not being able to cast while playing is a bit of a downer for me. I was considering getting a martial maneuver, preferably a boost (via item), and a martial stance with heroics - can anyone suggest me a good maneuver-stance combo? ToBlades is nice, but the build can't afford the AoO infrastructure to made good use of it. BitWater is another low level gem, but I guess it favors better crit range and number of attacks.
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#11 May 13, 2013 10:39:28
Tempest_Stormwind
Joined Jun 2004
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I have been contemplating giving this build a spin,
Happy to hear it!
but not being able to cast while playing is a bit of a downer for me.
We've found that if this matters, you can simply stop singing. Inspire Courage lingers for 5 rounds after you stop singing, which is probably going to be on round 2 of the battle anyway - a battle that lasts 7 rounds is rare (and quite worth giving up Inspire Courage for spell support!).
I was considering getting a martial maneuver, preferably a boost (via item), and a martial stance with heroics - can anyone suggest me a good maneuver-stance combo? ToBlades is nice, but the build can't afford the AoO infrastructure to made good use of it. BitWater is another low level gem, but I guess it favors better crit range and number of attacks.
In your case, the best one is probably Leading the Charge - it stacks with all of your buffs. It doesn't have a prerequisite (as a stance; the Martial Stance feat still requires a maneuver though), so any White Raven maneuver that has no prerequisite will work fine for you. The best of these is easily White Raven Tactics, but that does require a maneuver to take, so it won't be usable without martial scripts. Battle Leader's Charge is a simple but effective maneuver available at a reasonably low level (6th for you, assuming you get a source for it), and it combines quite nicely with the no-nonsense Inspire Courage boosts and Power Attack that you're packing, but you might find it difficult to make it truly menacing (which involves swift-action singing and the use of charge-based skill tricks, which all seem to require skills that aren't on your list - these are areas that a Song of the White Raven crusader can do that the A-Game Paladin cannot do (easily)).
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3.5: Definitive Shopping List (gear guide PDF)