High priests of the demigods, or maybe just one...

[Shadurak]

I've been wondering for a while - ever since Hel announced her vote - who are these demigods? Have we ever seen them or heard of them? Then the answer hit me.
The Dark One, of course! It's perfectly reasonable to assume that he counts as a demigod, based on the manner of his ascension. If so, Redcloak will most certainly show up right about now with the rest of the high priests. I have no idea if Xycon or MitD will be there, but it'll be a nice twist.
Also, I wonder if The Dark One will vote yes or no. I mean, his plan is to control the Snarl to force the rest of the gods to make life better for goblinkind, but in that same book Redcloak says that if the world ends, TDO will have a say right from the start and in the new world, goblins will be better off. So, hard to guess what he chooses.
So yeah, definitely looking forward to the next few strips! :smallbiggrin:
:xykon: Go Team Evil! :redcloak:

[hroþila]

The problem is that Redcloak refers to the Dark One as "a pantheon of one" in SoD. However, that might not be 100% literally true if Redcloak merely wanted to point out that he's the only god the goblinoids worshipped and that he was isolated from the other deities in practice (and a "subpantheon" might well still be a "pantheon"). Unlike many people in this forum who think there's no uncontradictory way for the Dark One to be part of the broader Northern Pantheon, however, I don't think it's necessarily that clear-cut.

[Roland Itiative]

The Dark One would be a tiebreaker for the southern pantheon in this case, no? It was never really clear where his ascension happened, but the interactions with the paladins imply it was on the southern continent.

[Ornithologist]

I doubt Redcloak would be enticed by free cake. Unless the Mitd is a demigod... He likes cake.

[Shadurak]

Actually, I don't think The Dark One "counts" as a part of any of the big pantheons. Remember, in strip 1000 the high priestess of Hoder says "the priests of the demigods" - not the Northern demigods. Also, when he ascended in SoD, gods from every pantheon interacted with him - good ones wanted him destroyed, evil ones protected him, it didn't matter if they were Northern, Southern or Western.
To my understanding, demigods in this world work on "free practice" - they aren't affiliated with any pantheon. So, the priests of all demigods have come to this Godsmoot.

[hroþila]

I find that unlikely. The demigods have to break the tie in the Northern Pantheon, not in the general (pan-pantheon?) vote, so it stands to reason the other pantheons would have their own demigods to break an eventual tie in their own separate votation. Otherwise, the same demigods would potentially get to vote three times, once per pantheon, and carry a disproportionate weight in the voting system.

Besides, we seem to be conflating "demigod" and "ascended god". If the Dark One is a demigod, so are the Elvish gods, who have never been referred to as such (and there might be some explicit mention in the last dozen comics or so about the Elvish gods voting in the general Western Pantheon vote, not as tie-breakers).

[Shadurak]

You've got a point there. :smallconfused: I counted this particular tie as, in your words, pan-pantheonic(one yes, one no, one tied) since the North is the place where everyone's representative gathered, but it would make little sense if the other pantheons also had a tie.
So yeah, wait and see, I guess.

[littlebum2002]

Yes, I'm sure Xykon, who didn't even let Redcloak have the 30 seconds or so it would have taken to defeat the Order, will have NO problem with letting him teleport off, in the middle of a dungeon, to go vote at the cleric's party.


In short, there's absolutely no way he is showing up here.

[Gift Jeraff]

You've got a point there. :smallconfused: I counted this particular tie as, in your words, pan-pantheonic(one yes, one no, one tied) since the North is the place where everyone's representative gathered, but it would make little sense if the other pantheons also had a tie.
So yeah, wait and see, I guess.

How do you know there are no representatives at the Southern or Western Godsmoots?

[factotum]

Re: "based on the manner of his ascension"--as far as we're aware, the Elven gods also came to godhood through the sheer belief of their worshippers, since they didn't exist in the Tale of the Scribble; however, they're unquestionably full-blown Gods because they get a vote in the Western Godsmoot. If the Dark One were associated with any of the three main pantheons I'm sure he'd also get a full vote, but he doesn't seem to have such an association.

[Sesharan]

So let's put a few things together, because I find this a very compelling theory.

Fact: Ascended Gods are fully-fledged Gods who receive a vote at the Godsmoot (provided they can supply a High Priest.)
Evidence: The Elven Gods, as mentioned by Wrecan, page 999.

Fact: Ascended Gods vote with a pre-existing Pantheon, but we don't know how the Pantheon they vote with is decided.
Evidence: Again, the Elven Gods as explained by Wrecan on page 999.

Fact: The Dark One, God of Goblins, of whom Redcloak is High Priest, is an Ascended God and has yet to vote.
Evidence: Page 999 shows all the various High Priests as they vote. None of them are Redcloak (indeed, none of them even have a red cloak.)

Therefore: If The Dark One votes with the Northern Pantheon somehow, he can choose to keep the gods from destroying the world, due to the current tie.

So the questions then, it seems to me, are thus: Can The Dark One vote with the Northern Pantheon? And would he want to save the world?

The first question is pretty much impossible to answer right now. We don't know why the Elven Gods vote with the Western Pantheon, so we don't know why The Dark One would or wouldn't vote with the Northern Pantheon. Although given that Wrecan specifically mentions that he doesn't know, that lack of knowledge seems like it might be important, which only lends credence to this theory. The Law of Conservation of Detail would seem to suggest that we will eventually learn why Ascended Gods vote with a given Pantheon, otherwise why mention that we don't know in the first place? And the only ones with a reason to provide those answers are The Dark One and Redcloak.

(Also, it was mentioned that Xykon wouldn't let Redcloak go vote. Xykon wants to rule the world, he has a vested interest in it not being destroyed. If letting Redcloak cast a couple Gates to go there and back again is what needs to happen to keep the world intact for his rule, I'm inclined to believe he'd be okay with that.)

The second question is more complicated. Would The Dark One want to save the world?

Start of Darkness gives us some useful info here. First, it tells us that The Dark One's primary motivation is to elevate the goblinoids. Second, there are two ways that can happen. Either the Gate Ritual is performed, and The Dark One gains control of the Snarl, using it to force concessions from the other gods, or the world is destroyed, and The Dark One has a chance to ensure that the goblins get a fair shake right from the beginning. Either way, same result.

So this all comes down to: which of those two options would The Dark One prefer?

Well, I'm inclined to believe that he'd prefer to control the Snarl. It seems to me that that would be more satisfying for an Evil God with reason to hate the other gods. Plus, it would let him do better by the goblins- not just give them an even playing field, but give them everything he can take from the other gods.



In conclusion: The Dark One votes in 2016.

[Werbaer]

Fact: Ascended Gods are fully-fledged Gods who receive a vote at the Godsmoot (provided they can supply a High Priest.)
Evidence: The Elven Gods, as mentioned by Wrecan, page 999.
Fact: All even numbers are prime.
Evidence: 2 is prime.

[Quebbster]

The problem is that Redcloak refers to the Dark One as "a pantheon of one" in SoD. However, that might not be 100% literally true if Redcloak merely wanted to point out that he's the only god the goblinoids worshipped and that he was isolated from the other deities in practice (and a "subpantheon" might well still be a "pantheon"). Unlike many people in this forum who think there's no uncontradictory way for the Dark One to be part of the broader Northern Pantheon, however, I don't think it's necessarily that clear-cut.
There's visual evidence of this in the main strip - The Dark One has a purple aura (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), not yellow, red, blue, or green like the established pantheons.

Also, I suspect the reason the Elven gods count as part of the Western Pantheon was that it was the easiest way to explain Veldrina being the representative of the Western Pantheon.

[SirKazum]

Fact: All even numbers are prime.
Evidence: 2 is prime.

In other words, ascended gods may be full-fledged gods (not demigods) with a vote in the Godsmoot, but there's no guarantee of that being the case. Or, more accurately, being present at the creation of the world (as opposed to having ascended later) is not a prerequisite for having a full vote... but that still doesn't tell us what the criteria for that are, or how each deity (ascended or not) fits in the scheme.

Regardless, since pantheons are organizations where one may or may not be accepted as a member, just like any other organization (being a god and being in the South are not sufficient for joining the Southern pantheon, IMO), I'd think the Dark One doesn't belong to any pantheon and doesn't get to vote in any Godsmoot, for purely social reasons.

[Roland Itiative]

The Elven Pantheon is referred as its own separate thing outside of the Godsmoot, and yet they still cast their votes alongside the Babylonian-inspired gods on it, so the Dark One being a "pantheon of one" would not necessarily mean he's considered just a demigod, he'd probably be thrown into the pantheon that fits him best. This could be the northern pantheon, but it would more likely be the southern one instead.

[hroþila]

There's visual evidence of this in the main strip - The Dark One has a purple aura (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), not yellow, red, blue, or green like the established pantheons.
We haven't seen the Elven gods, though, so we don't know whether their auras actually match the colour of the parent pantheon.

[Jasdoif]

Also, I suspect the reason the Elven gods count as part of the Western Pantheon was that it was the easiest way to explain Veldrina being the representative of the Western Pantheon.I believe the elven gods are part of the Western Pantheon because they still worship some of the Western gods, who they worship because their homeland is in the West.

[Pyrous]

I believe the elven gods are part of the Western Pantheon because they still worship some of the Western gods, who they worship because their homeland is in the West.

I was going to look for that quote, but I didn't have enough quotassium in my system. I guess that's why bananas are an eldritch part of a complete breakfast. :smallbiggrin: