Planning a wizard for an epic 3.5 campaign! Mages of Winterhold, send help!

[Doctor Despair]

I've been playing dnd for about a year and a half, and in that time I've played a horribly unoptimized unarmed monk and a straight-binder -- but I've been doing a lot of research. I decided to try my hand at a magic-user this campaign, but I'm having a lot of difficulty optimizing the character. I think I might be close to done, but I wanted to run it by you guys what with your wealth of experience and what not! :)

I helped my friend design a melee character, which is very straight forward to me, and he's going to be doing somewhere just under fifteen hundred damage at plus seventy something to hit (after power attack) and has supreme cleave. Naturally I don't expect to reach those levels of damage without all sorts of finely aged cheese, but I do know spellcasters typically outshine melee characters at this level -- I'm just not sure how best to do it.

So far the DM has cleared the use of two wishes -- one of which I want to use to get access to a turn attempt to fuel the divine power persist spell. I'm still not sure what to do with the second one -- I was thinking of wishing for an improved, epic version of my Arcane Thesis feat that applies the basic feat to spells equal to my intelligence modifier, selected upon receiving the feat. It would require Arcane Thesis as a prerequisite and caster level 20 to balance it in case any of the DMs characters wanted to spec into it for whatever reason. I have a modifier of +14 in my intelligence, which would make that pretty sweet, and an artificer cohort who can craft things on the cheap.

The campaign we're going into is going to feature deities in a big way according to what the DM has expressed. I would not be surprised if it resulted in some sort of combat with deities. In fact, as a party, one of our goals is to kill a greater deity take its divine ranks (I know about the PunPun ice assassin trick for getting divine ranks, but anything PunPun defeats the purpose of DnD). The DM has expressed that getting enough people to believe in you will bestow divinity in and of itself, but I'm not sure that is a reliable method considering how many things could go wrong with cajoling NPCs like that. I've read Deities and Demigods a bit and I think the warrior can do it with that damage and to-hit, which is reassuring at least, but I still want to be strong in my own right.

In terms of damage... I'm not sure what is appropriate, or rather, what is "good enough" for epic level fights. I know that enemies could easily have very high spell resistance, or saves, or AC, so I don't know where to focus my efforts. I was told the things we will fight will center in at CR25, barring outliers like deities or weaker NPCs. I know I don't have to do it all -- I have a party for that, after all -- but I want to be able to do something, and I feel like it is in my character's personality to seek to do it all. He is a bit of a megalomaniac and wants to prevent the use of magic in the world by anyone but himself or those of his own strength, hence his own personal quest for godhood.

I've read that "save or die" spells are strong, but as I look at deities, I feel like things with no save are what I should be looking for at epic levels -- but then I'm not sure how much to buff ranged touch attacks. I managed to get a normal BAB, which is big, and a decent dex bonus should be easy at these levels, but I'm not sure what sort of dex bonus enemies will have to oppose it. Should I be pumping my dex? And what spells seem the best for combat without being too rude/cheesey to my DM? I feel very immersed in the spellcasting so that I can understand a lot of the mechanics, but I don't have an innate sense of what is good or bad.

Here is what I have worked out so far:

Wizard (1): Iron Will, Extraordinary Concentration
Wizard (2):
Wizard (3): Twin Spell
Wizard (4):
Wizard (5): Extend Spell
Incantatrix 1 (6): Persistent Spell, Maximize Spell
Incantatrix 2 (7):
Incantatrix 3 (8):
Wyrm Wizard 1 (9): Leadership
Wyrm Wizard 2 (10): (gain access to Divine Power, wish for (1) turn attempt a day, persist with Incantatrix for free skillcheck, BAB = ECL)
Incantatrix 4 (11): Divine Metamagic
Incantatrix 5 (12): Spell Mastery
Incantatrix 6 (13):
Incantatrix 7 (14): Chain Spell
Incantatrix 8 (15): Uncanny Forethought
Incantatrix 9 (16):
Incantatrix 10 (17): Quicken Spell
Wyrm Wizard 3 (18): Arcane Thesis
Olin Gisir 1 (19):
Olin Gisir 2 (20): Invisible Spell
Epic Incantatrix 11 (21): (Epic Spellcasting)

End Result: Effective Arcane Caster Level 19 at Level 20 with full BAB progression

I also have two wishes to use, for which I wanted to get a turn attempt a day as of a cleric at half my caster level (to pump into Divine Metamagic) and to apply Arcane Thesis to spells = my intelligence modifier.

For defensive spells, I was considering using Hide Life, Astral Projection, Temporal Stasis and an extended Contingency: Dispel Magic on the Temporal Stasis (triggering when my spirit reinhabits the body), returning once a month or so to my original body to refresh the spells. I was also considering an extended mind blank and instant refuge as a catch-all for all else.

As for offensive spells, I've been hearing a lot of positive press for shapechange, mind rape (although I think standard action Programmed Amnesia via Uncanny Forethought is superior), disintegrate against foes not resistant to rays or without high spell resistance and fortitude saves, orb of force against foes with high spell resistance or high saves, and then Gate, Ice Assassin, Time Stop (probably using the previous two and delayed spells), and Wish.

What all other feats or offensive spells would be very beneficial? I was planning on starting human and polymorphing into a Domovi/Raptoran subtype (as approved by the DM) for high stat boosts and immortality as well as flight (improved by Domovi small size). Essentially, a high-powered megalomaniac parrot-pixie. Of course this is allowing for polymorphing as appropriate while training in the elf-specific class.

[GilesTheCleric]

So far the DM has cleared the use of two wishes -- one of which I want to use to get access to a turn attempt to fuel the divine power persist spell. Why do you want to deal weapon damage as a wizard? If your goal is to hit things with a weapon, Power Attack really is one of the most efficient ways. I recommend going with a cleric build if you want to smash things with weapons -- zen archery, intuitive attack, power attack, and Ice Axe. You can add metamagic to ice axe; I think I got it up to 300 damage per swing before power attack last time I looked at it. The cleric list is also a much better base for buffing your face-smashing damage, though there's a few wiz spells for it, too.


I'm still not sure what to do with the second one -- I was thinking of wishing for an improved, epic version of my Arcane Thesis feat that applies the basic feat to spells equal to my intelligence modifier, selected upon receiving the feat. It would require Arcane Thesis as a prerequisite and caster level 20 to balance it in case any of the DMs characters wanted to spec into it for whatever reason.

Using CL as a requirement is atypical for feats (or anything else for that matter). Tying it to the ability to cast x-level spells is more typical.


The campaign we're going into is going to feature deities in a big way according to what the DM has expressed. I would not be surprised if it resulted in some sort of combat with deities. In fact, as a party, one of our goals is to kill a greater deity take its divine ranks There are spells and PrCs that can grant you total immunity to divine magic; I believe that all of them run on a cleric base. There's also cheater of mystra, PaO/ poly, and AMF shenanigans. Taking on deities isn't difficult, but it also isn't easy. Build around them getting natural 20s on every check; that requires bypassing immunities or not allowing a check. A user here (Jowgen or Anthrowhale?) recently started a thread making a list of immunity-bypassers.
The DM has expressed that getting enough people to believe in you will bestow divinity in and of itself, but I'm not sure that is a reliable method considering how many things could go wrong with cajoling NPCs like that. I've read Deities and Demigods a bit and I think the warrior can do it with that damage and to-hit. Even getting Divine Rank 1 0 (ftfy) would be huge as a start. A diplomancer can easily obtain this. See also minionmancy with leadership, thralls, etc.


In terms of damage... I'm not sure what is appropriate, or rather, what is "good enough" for epic level fights. I know that enemies could easily have very high spell resistance, or saves, or AC, so I don't know where to focus my efforts. I was told the things we will fight will center in at CR25, barring outliers like deities or weaker NPCs. The trickiest part of high-level combats are countering enemy spellcasters, and preventing escape. Consider any demon or devil; most have at-will teleports. Consider dragons; all have high-level spellcasting. Consider high-level melee bruisers; they have big numbers, but will have at least one bad save, and probably lack mobility. When making a caster, I find it handy to colour-code my spells so that I can visually recognize which spells target what (if any) save. Be sure to have a few spells for each save type.


I've read that "save or die" spells are strong, but as I look at deities, I feel like things with no save are what I should be looking for at epic levels -- but then I'm not sure how much to buff ranged touch attacks. I managed to get a normal BAB, which is big, and a decent dex bonus should be easy at these levels, but I'm not sure what sort of dex bonus enemies will have to oppose it. Should I be pumping my dex? And what spells seem the best for combat without being too rude/cheesey to my DM? I feel very immersed in the spellcasting so that I can understand a lot of the mechanics, but I don't have an innate sense of what is good or bad. If you're trying to get a single stat to 30+ in order to do damage, primary casting stat, str, or cha will be easiest to buff and use. Dex requires a lot of resources to make decent.


For defensive spells, I was considering using Hide Life, Astral Projection, Temporal Stasis and an extended Contingency: Dispel Magic on the Temporal Stasis, returning once a month or so to my original body. I was also considering an extended mind blank and instant refuge as a catch-all for all else. Those are some good starts for spells; if you're planning on taking on deities, you're likely going to want a much longer buff list, though. There's ways to do that (DMM: persist+extend, or tricks like ice runes being discussed in the immoth thread right now). See The Wish and The Word for a list of lots of buffs (link in the WotC index in my sig).


As for offensive spells, I've been hearing a lot of positive press for shapechange, mind rape (although I think standard action Programmed Amnesia via Uncanny Forethought is superior), disintegrate against foes not resistant to rays or without high spell resistance and fortitude saves, orb of force against foes with high spell resistance or high saves, and then Gate, Ice Assassin, Time Stop (probably using the previous two and delayed spells), and Wish. Assume that anything that's worth needing to disintegrate/ SoD on turn 0 will probably have high SR.


What all other feats or offensive spells would be very beneficial? I was planning on starting human and polymorphing into a Domovi/Raptoran subtype (as approved by the DM) for high stat boosts and immortality as well as flight (improved by Domovi small size). Essentially, a high-powered megalomaniac parrot-pixie. Of course this is allowing for polymorphing as appropriate while training in the elf-specific class.

Look into nSjDs (no save, just die). Even things as inefficient as earthquake or summon swarm can be turned into a sure-fire thing by comboing them with other enabling spells.

I'm certainly biased, but I do recommend going with cleric if you want a high-op build and you're still dipping your toes into optimizing. They have a higher floor (and a lower ceiling for PO, but that's not a big deal in most cases), and require less GM intervention. Between Rainbow Servant, Prestige Paladin, custom/ domains, and Anyspell, they also have pretty easy access to everyone else's spells lists, too, if there's a niche spell you want, like Battle Blessing or something. I also find that raising defenses on clerics doesn't require being as proactive as a wizard, while still leaving that option very open and easy with divinations.

Lastly, if you've been doing a lot of reading on op, that's great; a good next step to take might be to build a whole bunch of optimized characters. In my opinion, one learns best by doing. If you're settled on an arcane caster, try building a few different arcane casters to see if you can weedle out tricks that might not be as apparent on the first class you try (ie wizard).

[herrhauptmann]

Hi from reddit.

Something I forgot about is Magic Locations as Treasure.
Complete Scoundrel has rules for visiting certain locations and getting a benefit from it. Like getting blessed for praying at a shrine after a pilgrimage.
In this case, Otyugh Hole grants you Iron Will.

[herrhauptmann]

Have you read power of faerun? It has sections for different types of high level play. Playing the market, court intrigue, religion (and heresies), armies...

It also works on epic leadership.

I'm trying to think of what else to offer, but I'm running out.

[Doctor Despair]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback! Err, in order I spose:

I was boosting BAB to make ranged touch attacks for *spells*. I'm trying to avoid a melee straight-up smash-your-face-in person if I can.

Fair enough! I just meant to specify it as an epic feat. :)

Could you specify the spells/PrCs that give flat immunity to divinity? I'm looking and the closest thing I can find is the cleric Spell Immunity, which seems lackluster against deities. Unless... spell turning? I'm confused here. I'll definitely look into the "immunity bypasser" thread!

I'd rather avoid the victory-by-culture things here; I don't want to upset the DM after he finally agreed to run the epic campaign, haha. If it makes sense in the campaign setting maybe, but I wouldn't go for divinity via the leadership feat strain.

Those are fair conditions to consider... I see now why the force cage//dimmensional anchor was so favored in discussion. I'll have to make a similar chart as I look through the appropriate spells.

I was only buffing dex for ranged touch attacks, because I know that's the relevant check in a lot of spells that have no spell resistance or save. It seemed fairly standard to require either a ranged touch attack, or a save, or both, with spell resistance being applied somewhat randomly depending on the flavor of the spell.

I will have to look into god-proofing my astral cord and body, then, if those don't seem sufficient. I was nervous about the astral cord to begin with. The business with that just seems so risky!

Fair enough -- I suppose I should begin delving into penetrating spell resistance, then, or else avoid spells that require those checks. The latter seems simpler overall.

Those ns;jd spells are interesting! I'll have to look at those in more depth. In terms of class, I was going for arcane because of what I want to be able to do with the class *as* a deity. This character wants to

A.) create a race of sentient constructs who seek to become artificers and craft more construct people (via awaken construct and programmed amnesia) and

B.) prevent spellcasting in other people who aren't him or someone stronger than him.

Arcane spells just seem to lend themselves to that the most easily, though I'm sure I could figure something via divine spells if it came to it!
____________________________________

The Otyugh Hole tip is huge! At least with this build. Thanks! :) I'll have to look into those. And the Power of Faerun!

[Belzyk]

Spellhoarding lore Drake dragonwrought kobold.
1 wizard
2 sorcerer
3 wizard
4 wizard
5 wizard (unless you can enter ultimate magus)
Then go full ultimate magus. Every level of sorcerer you get from it is turned into wizard levels for spellcasting because of spellhoarding. You use your scales as your wizard spellbook. And can absorb spells cast on you sometimes right into your scales. Spellhoarding basically turns all spontaneous spellcaster levels into non. So all sorcerer levels become wizard for wizard caster level. By level 13 your caster level should be near 20. Also if you can fit in unseele fey for the cha boost for the skymage mount it makes it easier.

Then if you can go skymage and get a grey linnorm mount it can change form into a humanoid and casts as a 17th level cleric and stack on the templates. Lmao its epic pure epic.

[GilesTheCleric]

Boosting BAB gives you a max of +10 to-hit; using a truestrike or other method that costs gold is probably more efficient. Raising to-hit for touch attacks isn't too necessary in most cases, regardless: http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/ryuusui-ken/Touch%20vs%20Normal%20AC%20MM1_zpss7atvmzj.jpg

Certainly. Requirements for an epic feat should probably include number of ranks in something (spellcraft) so as to get around dw kobolds taking those feats whenever they please.

My notes on cleric PrCs are not yet complete (so far web and 3.0 dragon is all that's done), but I have two that might be: Athar gets "immune to divine and holy damage, planar banishment, grant save bonus vs divine spells, counterspell divine spells, divine spell reflection, anti-divine AMF, nondetection, divine SR", and Vengeance Sworn gets "immune to frightful presence, fear resistance, +combat in frightful presence, rage, spell immunity". There's at least one other PrC that gets a mobile AMF, though I can't recall the name. As I recall, it's a small AMF, though, so it's only situationally useful. There might be a PrC that can create dead magic zones, which I don't think deities can circumvent unless they use their reality reformation ability.

Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock are great spells; the former is my favourite in the game. Note that they can be used offensively, but also defensively on yourself to prevent you being the one who suffers a high-CL Dismissal.

Noted. My apologies for overlooking dex for spells with attack rolls; clerics don't have too many of those, so I don't often think of them.

Astral Projection is a great defensive spell, but don't overlook using Magic Jar in conjunction with it. It has a different set of weaknesses to account for, though.