Experience, modified or not?

[Laserlight]

Let's say I set an encounter for 8 monsters at 50xp each. The party earns 8x50=400xp, but the multiplier for having 8 monsters means its challenge is 8x50x2.5=1000xp. Is there a reason I shouldn't just give the party the 1000, since that's what the actual difficulty is?

I get that "if they lure all the kobolds in the area and fight them en masse, they get more xp", but that's also a harder fight and I don't expect that to happen.
I also get "You're the DM, do what you will"--and I will--but I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

[Mr.Moron]

You'll also blow through levels much faster. Which isn't necessarily bad but something to consider. The current system also makes big monster rewards feel bigger because you have a class of hard but low Xp encounters in hordes.

[MaxWilson]

Let's say I set an encounter for 8 monsters at 50xp each. The party earns 8x50=400xp, but the multiplier for having 8 monsters means its challenge is 8x50x2.5=1000xp. Is there a reason I shouldn't just give the party the 1000, since that's what the actual difficulty is?

I get that "if they lure all the kobolds in the area and fight them en masse, they get more xp", but that's also a harder fight and I don't expect that to happen.
I also get "You're the DM, do what you will"--and I will--but I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

Here's one reason: adjusted XP is used for computing the difficulty level, and you're proposing to award the PCs XP based on difficulty instead of just awarding the sum of monster XP. But there are other things that affect difficulty too, and the DMG doesn't give you XP modifiers for them. E.g. if you fight Magma Mephits in a hostile environment that isn't hostile to them (e.g. lava forces DC 10 Con check each round to avoid 1d6 fire damage, but the mephits are immune) that officially increases the difficulty by one step. How much extra XP should the PCs get in that case for the extra difficulty? You'll have to ad hoc something.

Also, if you award inflated XP, then it suddenly becomes important to the players whether a given encounter counts as one encounter or several. Real scenario: if there are 22 umber hulks in the vicinity, and 1d4 of them emerge per turn from the neogi ship to attack the PCs, and the PCs have already killed two umber hulks and this round there are four umber hulks in melee with the PCs and four more of the umber hulks who just emerged, and the four who just emerged fail a morale check when they see how much the PCs are hurting their fellows and withdraw behind cover to wait for backup before engaging (and the ones in melee would like to withdraw but can't because they'd have to cross the Evard's Black Tentacles again)... for XP purposes, are there four, six, ten, or twenty-two umber hulks in this encounter? What happens when another 3 Umber Hulks emerge next round?

It's just simpler to stick to the MM guidelines and award flat XP instead of difficulty-adjusted XP.

Also, speaking as someone who initially tried handing out adjusted XP to my players and then went back to normal--advancement is already crazy-fast in 5E even without handing out 4x XP for difficulty. Was too rapid for my taste, enough to harm suspension of disbelief (even more). Gaining 16,000 XP in a single session at 6th level is fine as a one-time thing, but it gets old fast. I'm fine with handing out 10,875 XP to each of four PCs for beating the twenty-two Umber Hulks and 8th level Neogi wizard (plus some slaves with siege weapons), because it really was pretty epic and I thought they were going to die, but 43,500 XP per PC is a bit too much.

[SharkForce]

i would modify XP for DM-initiated changes (the room has 6 goblins in it, or there is a cliff and the enemy are too small to shove the PCs but the PCs are not too small to shove the enemy) but not for PC-initiated changes (the PCs manage to split the enemy into smaller groups, or the PCs are unusually noisy and attract extra monsters).

[JNAProductions]

Honestly, you know what I do? Don't track XP at all. I just level them up at the end of a session if appropriate.

[mephnick]

I also recommend milestone leveling. We stopped tracking XP years ago and haven't thought about it since.

I still use the XP calculations for encounters obviously, but the "oh...you killed 1 more bugbear, you're level 5 now!" seems so silly to me outside of some MMO grind fest.

It feels much more natural to have them level up after taking down a cult hideout or something.

[MaxWilson]

i would modify XP for DM-initiated changes (the room has 6 goblins in it, or there is a cliff and the enemy are too small to shove the PCs but the PCs are not too small to shove the enemy) but not for PC-initiated changes (the PCs manage to split the enemy into smaller groups, or the PCs are unusually noisy and attract extra monsters).

That's reasonable, but it does still require you to choose, fairly arbitrarily, what the base case is. If there are six goblins in this room and two in the next and four in the next, and they'll respond to noise by joining forces, it is obviously possible for a stealthy rogue and fighter duo to slit the throats of the two without disturbing the six and then wait until the next four split up before killing them noiselessly too. And it's likewise possible for a noisy wizard to Knock and thereby make them all join up in a group of twelve goblins immediately.

Which one is the base case and which one is the "PC-initiated change"? Do they get lots of experience or a little? It's simpler to just not have to care.


It feels much more natural to have them level up after taking down a cult hideout or something.

Is it more fun for the players to not track XP, or just more fun for the DM?

As a DM I don't track XP anyway, I just say, "You solved the riddle! Take 500 XP!" and let the players worry about when they're going to level up. I frequently don't even know what level the various PCs are.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to come down with using the base, not the modified XP - in most cases. It's a judgement call.

Example: my party ran into a flock of Stirges, but due to Elvish ears the fowl creatures were spotted and hit with a sleep spell. Of 20 Stirges in the tree, 6 engaged in combat; one scored a hit. Giving the adjusted XP for that encounter would not have reflected the actual difficulty, which was minimal. The Stirges were more flavor than a real encounter; they were to explain why the abandoned temple had a blood-drained corpse lying in the yard, panicking the villagers.

Currently they are fighting 100 orcs - from within a fortress which provides 3/4 cover and with the help of a dozen soldiers. Again, giving whatever ginormous pile of XP would be indicated by "outnumbered 5-1" (40,000?) doesn't reflect the actual difficulty of the encounter.

BTW, I would like to propose "drain" as the collective noun for Stirges, as in "We ran into a drain of Stirges on the high road, and lost a horse".

[SharkForce]

That's reasonable, but it does still require you to choose, fairly arbitrarily, what the base case is. If there are six goblins in this room and two in the next and four in the next, and they'll respond to noise by joining forces, it is obviously possible for a stealthy rogue and fighter duo to slit the throats of the two without disturbing the six and then wait until the next four split up before killing them noiselessly too. And it's likewise possible for a noisy wizard to Knock and thereby make them all join up in a group of twelve goblins immediately.

Which one is the base case and which one is the "PC-initiated change"? Do they get lots of experience or a little? It's simpler to just not have to care.



Is it more fun for the players to not track XP, or just more fun for the DM?

As a DM I don't track XP anyway, I just say, "You solved the riddle! Take 500 XP!" and let the players worry about when they're going to level up. I frequently don't even know what level the various PCs are.

well the default assumption is not that the PCs are a bunch of ninjas, so if normal volume combat will bring in every goblin, then it's all one encounter. if normal volume combat won't bring in any extras, it is 3 smaller encounters, and if the players manage to make an exceptional amount of noise (perhaps they use a shout spell or collapse some walls), that's their own fault.

yes, this does mean that a party that *are* a bunch of ninjas will on occasion get the same exp but will face much easier fights. that's fine, because it's more challenging to be a bunch of ninjas and frankly speaking most really sneaky builds either burn fairly limited resources (such as spell slots) or simply are not as directly powerful in combat in the first place, so easier fights are somewhat desirable to avoid killing them in a random pointless battle.

[mephnick]

Is it more fun for the players to not track XP, or just more fun for the DM?

Both, I guess? Like I say, it hasn't come up in quite some time. They generally level up every 3-4 sessions and they know they can level up faster if they do something really impressive.

I think the key is to make sure you aren't doing it arbitrarily. They still have to earn it.

[MaxWilson]

well the default assumption is not that the PCs are a bunch of ninjas, so if normal volume combat will bring in every goblin, then it's all one encounter. if normal volume combat won't bring in any extras, it is 3 smaller encounters, and if the players manage to make an exceptional amount of noise (perhaps they use a shout spell or collapse some walls), that's their own fault.

yes, this does mean that a party that *are* a bunch of ninjas will on occasion get the same exp but will face much easier fights. that's fine, because it's more challenging to be a bunch of ninjas and frankly speaking most really sneaky builds either burn fairly limited resources (such as spell slots) or simply are not as directly powerful in combat in the first place, so easier fights are somewhat desirable to avoid killing them in a random pointless battle.

That sounds like a reasonable approach. I'm glad it works for you.

[bid]

Let's say I set an encounter for 8 monsters at 50xp each. The party earns 8x50=400xp, but the multiplier for having 8 monsters means its challenge is 8x50x2.5=1000xp. Is there a reason I shouldn't just give the party the 1000, since that's what the actual difficulty is?
Do you want them to play smart and fight them piecemeal?

If 2 consecutive fights of 4 monsters give the same xp but are easier than a single slugfest, they'll try to split them.