A Paladin In Need Of Help

[Pavbat666]

Hi everyone, I am very new to the forums. However, I want to ask you about advice about something really bothering me in my DnD group. I am a paladin at heart and I act as a paladin in real life, but my group hates me. They think I am stupid and useless, however I actually do all the dirty work for the group, and I try to help everyone. They don't seem to see that, and try to insult me and even one time kill me because I play a paladin. So far, I am confused. I get the code of conduct thing about paladins, but is it that bad? I play 3.5 edition by the way.

[Mando Knight]

Welcome to putting your faith in the Light. Unfortunately, many people have an innately negative reaction to a self-proclaimed paragon of good and justice, especially if that person actually does strive to fulfill that role instead of simply claim it.

I don't think there is a single class or archetype more polarizing among the RPG community than that of the Paladin, honestly.

[veti]

It's hard to say without knowing a lot more about you and your group, but on the face of it - it sounds as if your playing style, and probably your expectations of the game, don't match those of the rest of your group.

Talk to them, away from the game sometime, about why they play it - what they want out of it, what their idea of a "good session" is. Maybe they don't want you "doing their dirty work".

[Geddy2112]

Welcome to being a paladin. People(in my experience) like to play D&D on mostly chaotic stupid/evil setting. And how dare you even consider not being a thoughtless murderhobo. Also, I have seen otherwise not jerk people challenge paladins. I think all paladins go through what you are going through at some point. Hell, anybody that plays LG goes through this. Hell, anybody that plays G....

It might be the group expectation, or your friends are just jerks, or you are the stick in the mud. The 3.5
paladin code RAW and being alignment and thought police is toxic. However, you don't have to stand for outright chaotic stupid or stupid evil either. There is a balance. I also hope this is in game and not out of game, in which case leave your group ASAP.

. On one hand, you are a paladin, and you hold yourself above them and their stupid childish behavior. You take the high road-the calling is not for everyone.

On the other hand, unrepentent evil monsters and jerks don't want to see the light, redeem them with the sword. See who is useless now.

[Talion]

The most fundamental issue with the Paladin class in most groups is that they cannot knowingly associate themselves with 'Evil' persons. This acts as a restriction on a lot of otherwise viable player plans and motives that generally results in either the Paladin falling, making them even less viable as a class (and often caused by the intentional mechanisms of the other players/DM). As stated above, this may put a crimp in many people's styles, as a lot of D&D is turning off your brain and ethic processing centers in favor of killing things for loot and exp. For most people, it's just easier to play a relevant Cleric. Much less restrictive, and significantly more powerful, even with the same alignment. The difference is that a Paladin can, and generally will, be penalized for the actions of their party members, something that is not seen in any other Core Class.

For those who have the nerve to endure the above however, the most important thing to remember is that, per the official rules, Good always comes before Law when it comes to the code. As long as you act consistently, and within D&D's parameters for "Good", you should almost never legitimately fall. However, bear in mind some parties/DMs will make a sport of making a Paladin fall, no matter how illegitimate or far fetched the reason.

That being said, if the party has reached the point of attempted murder, it would be best to call a time out and talk things over. Get an understanding of why everyone feels this is acceptable. If a solution cannot be reached, well...much as I hate to say it, from the information given that means either the group is toxic to your play style and you'd be better dropping the campaign and finding a more accommodating group, or your Paladin would be better off leaving the group for their own safety (and likely sanity) and you can try the Cleric option above, perhaps with a touch of multi-classing to Fighter or something for that proper Paladin feel without the associated connotations. Or something else, if that doesn't tickle your fancy.

Edit: Here's a Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447260-Paladins-Knights-Lawful-Do-Goodniks-Dos-and-Don-ts) for some do's and don't for Paladins.

[goto124]

I am a paladin at heart and I act as a paladin in real life, but my group hates me. They think I am stupid and useless, however I actually do all the dirty work for the group, and I try to help everyone.

Out of curiosity, what about the paladin archetype (or Lawful Good archetype) do you like? Are you more Good than Lawful, or the other way round?

[Pavbat666]

Out of curiosity, what about the paladin archetype (or Lawful Good archetype) do you like? Are you more Good than Lawful, or the other way round?

I would prefer to be GOOD rather than LAWFUL.

[Douche]

Are you new to the group? Sounds like you might be getting "hazed" a little bit. If they are treating you bad personally, just respectfully ask if they have some sort of problem with you out of the game. Try to explain that you didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way and you just want to have a good time like everyone else.

In game, maybe you should be more like the Superman from the Justice League cartoon. He wasn't a killjoy about everything, he was a leader and had faith in his friends to do what is right without being all "guuuyysss that's not niiiice stoppp ittt"

If they clearly want to do something evil like slaughter an entire village, then you should speak up... But if they just want to cross the line a bit, then let them do it if it's for the good of the group.

[King of Casuals]

In my experience people dont like it when the way you play your character infringes upon how they play their characters, and paladins have a very bad reputation for doing that. I dont know if you read order of the stick (The comic that the guy who runs this forum makes) but it does a pretty good job of summing up why people don't like paladins:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html
Even though they're not all like this, its definitely an "exception creates the stereotype" situation.

I can remember one time that a paladin (controlled by the GM) forced me to do something that completely went against what my character wanted to do, and it was single worst moment of my RPGing career. I was the Chaotic Neutral captain of a pirate ship and the paladin, who was stuck on a rowboat for several days, wouldn't let me loot an enemy ship after we'd killed all their crew together. He also decided that he was going to come with us because he needed a ride to the next island, and that if we didnt let him come with us then he would kill all the players and take the ship himself (and I know that the GM would do it). Since the GM made this guy a total badass I couldn't do anything about it, and the fact that he stayed with us only added insult to injury. I know that most paladins don't do this, but the fact that some players actually do stuff like this infuriates the non-lawful good characters so much that makes them hate characters that adopt that "holier than thou" attitude pretty much by default.

[Red Fel]

Hi everyone, I am very new to the forums. However, I want to ask you about advice about something really bothering me in my DnD group. I am a paladin at heart and I act as a paladin in real life, but my group hates me. They think I am stupid and useless, however I actually do all the dirty work for the group, and I try to help everyone. They don't seem to see that, and try to insult me and even one time kill me because I play a paladin. So far, I am confused. I get the code of conduct thing about paladins, but is it that bad? I play 3.5 edition by the way.

Ah ha ha ha! Oh, that's just adorable. Sad Paladin is sad. Delicious.

All teasing aside, it really depends on your gameplay style.

In 3.5, the Paladin class is poorly designed. Sad but true, it really is. There are any number of ways you could play a "shining paragon of light and justice" better than the Paladin, contribute more, and just have more fun. And that's before we look at the utterly obnoxious Code of Conduct, which generally precludes you from playing with fun characters certain concepts.

Now, first off, you say you favor the G over the L. That's really good, because many people play Paladins as Lawful Stupid, which is another obnoxious thing about the class. In fact, it's possible that the other players have had negative experiences with Paladins, which might contribute to their negativity.

The downside is, of course, if you overplay it. As others have mentioned, there's a line between "My code keeps me from doing X," and "My code forces me to stop you from doing X." The former is a good way to play a Paladin, the latter is not.

I would advise you to sit down with the other players, out of character, and discuss things. Figure out what their objection is. For instance, if they just don't like the class, too bad, because that's your call. If, on the other hand, they dislike the class because you're playing a Paladin in a group of CE Necromancers, butchers, and murderers, you're the odd man out and should really rethink your position. Try to figure out what's bothering everyone, what they can do about it, and what you can do about it. You're G, right? Talk it out. You guys love that sort of thing.

As an aside, you might not want to describe yourself as "a Paladin in real life." That kind of lends an odd impression.

[Pavbat666]

Ah ha ha ha! Oh, that's just adorable. Sad Paladin is sad. Delicious.

All teasing aside, it really depends on your gameplay style.

In 3.5, the Paladin class is poorly designed. Sad but true, it really is. There are any number of ways you could play a "shining paragon of light and justice" better than the Paladin, contribute more, and just have more fun. And that's before we look at the utterly obnoxious Code of Conduct, which generally precludes you from playing with fun characters certain concepts.

Now, first off, you say you favor the G over the L. That's really good, because many people play Paladins as Lawful Stupid, which is another obnoxious thing about the class. In fact, it's possible that the other players have had negative experiences with Paladins, which might contribute to their negativity.

The downside is, of course, if you overplay it. As others have mentioned, there's a line between "My code keeps me from doing X," and "My code forces me to stop you from doing X." The former is a good way to play a Paladin, the latter is not.

I would advise you to sit down with the other players, out of character, and discuss things. Figure out what their objection is. For instance, if they just don't like the class, too bad, because that's your call. If, on the other hand, they dislike the class because you're playing a Paladin in a group of CE Necromancers, butchers, and murderers, you're the odd man out and should really rethink your position. Try to figure out what's bothering everyone, what they can do about it, and what you can do about it. You're G, right? Talk it out. You guys love that sort of thing.

As an aside, you might not want to describe yourself as "a Paladin in real life." That kind of lends an odd impression.

First of all, I am WAY more good than lawful. The reason everyone hates me is not personal problems, it is because they hate the aspect of the class, and they jump to conclusions that I WILL stop them. I try not to be too obnoxious, and I sometimes feel like that, but the problem with that is my DM. I always feel like he is going to take away my paladin abilities if I am not Lawful as well as GOOD. He also wants me to keep all the other characters in tact, and make sure they go too crazy in the game, which really annoys me because I think that is his job to do. However, I can't argue with the DM because they sometimes do get a little too crazy. However, thanks for this advice!

P.S. sorry if it sounded strange in real life I am a paladin. That's what everyone in my group calls me...

[Cikomyr]

I will tell you a little story of a character i once played. And maybe it will help you out.

I once had to replace my Knight character for another one, and i decided to play a very moral character. I dressed up my new character as a Priest of the goddess of Healing and Mercy (who arent allowed to carry other weapons than a staff and cant take a life). I presented him as a "devout follower of Shallya". The rest of the party (bunch of thieves, scoundrels and mercenaries) groaned at this new character, thinking id he their Moral police.

Well, another character took it up as a fun challenge, and started to try to pass as a random Noble instead of the Conman/Thief he was. We RPed a lot about me " trying" to catch him in the act, and him avoiding to be caught. When they needed to do less.. Savory actions, i found a good reason to leave them to themselves, and yet always suggested we did the "right" thing of mercy, healing, etc..

In the end, once we met the pre-final boss, the Scoundrel tried to con his way past..

..and i joined in, lending credence to his tricksting. The person was obviously evil, so tricking her wasnt taking advantage of an innocent. Plus, all the competitive RP we had earlier drilled us in maintaining a good conversarion.

When asked about it, i finally revealed to the other players:

My character was a White Wizard. Unbound by any moral code. There was no fear of me ever losing my powers or abilities. But that did not stopped me from having a strong moral centre.

You dont HAVE to BE a paladin to play righteous. Or even a cleric. You can play a good person without the fear of losing your powers just because you dont want to deny your party actions that they genuinely want to roleplay.

And i will tell you, from personal experience, playing a moral character because you WANT to is much more rewarding than because you HAVE to.

[goto124]

Be Roy, not Miko.

Do you really want to play the mechanics of the Paladin class? You could pick another class (e.g. Fighter, as Roy has done) and hold yourself (don't force others) to a personal standard. Even if you break your code to keep the game fun for everyone, you don't have to lose your class abilities.

Are you playing 3.5/PF? Might want to look at 5e for inspiration. The paladins there only have to follow their written-out codes, instead of upholding to some vague standard of Lawful and Good.

[Pavbat666]

I will tell you a little story of a character i once played. And maybe it will help you out.

I once had to replace my Knight character for another one, and i decided to play a very moral character. I dressed up my new character as a Priest of the goddess of Healing and Mercy (who arent allowed to carry other weapons than a staff and cant take a life). I presented him as a "devout follower of Shallya". The rest of the party (bunch of thieves, scoundrels and mercenaries) groaned at this new character, thinking id he their Moral police.

Well, another character took it up as a fun challenge, and started to try to pass as a random Noble instead of the Conman/Thief he was. We RPed a lot about me " trying" to catch him in the act, and him avoiding to be caught. When they needed to do less.. Savory actions, i found a good reason to leave them to themselves, and yet always suggested we did the "right" thing of mercy, healing, etc..

In the end, once we met the pre-final boss, the Scoundrel tried to con his way past..

..and i joined in, lending credence to his tricksting. The person was obviously evil, so tricking her wasnt taking advantage of an innocent. Plus, all the competitive RP we had earlier drilled us in maintaining a good conversarion.

When asked about it, i finally revealed to the other players:

My character was a White Wizard. Unbound by any moral code. There was no fear of me ever losing my powers or abilities. But that did not stopped me from having a strong moral centre.

You dont HAVE to BE a paladin to play righteous. Or even a cleric. You can play a good person without the fear of losing your powers just because you dont want to deny your party actions that they genuinely want to roleplay.

And i will tell you, from personal experience, playing a moral character because you WANT to is much more rewarding than because you HAVE to.

Wow thanks! That was really helpful, and I am beginning to understand now how this works. Again I am not a pro, and that gave me a better understanding of the paladin, and RPG's in all. Thank you!

[Pyrous]

First of all, I am WAY more good than lawful. The reason everyone hates me is not personal problems, it is because they hate the aspect of the class, and they jump to conclusions that I WILL stop them. I try not to be too obnoxious, and I sometimes feel like that, but the problem with that is my DM. I always feel like he is going to take away my paladin abilities if I am not Lawful as well as GOOD. He also wants me to keep all the other characters in tact, and make sure they go too crazy in the game, which really annoys me because I think that is his job to do. However, I can't argue with the DM because they sometimes do get a little too crazy. However, thanks for this advice!

Sounds like your DM is using your class to do his job. The Paladin in 3.5, besides being poorly designed, has a poorly written Code of Conduct, which your DM can use to force you to keep the other characters in check, shifting the blame ("I'm just saying, there's a Paladin in the party, it would be a shame if he fell"). You should talk to your DM and make sure he knows that this is annoying you. If he doesn't stop, change your class (play a different character, don't get stuck with levels of fallen Paladin) or leave the table.

[Cikomyr]

Wow thanks! That was really helpful, and I am beginning to understand now how this works. Again I am not a pro, and that gave me a better understanding of the paladin, and RPG's in all. Thank you!

My pleasure, and good luck.

By an example, not a buzzkill. Many players, when they have the chance to do genuinely good actions, at first refuse, but might actually enjoy the feelgood feeling after trying it.

Don't judge. Dont criticize. But encourage. :)

[Pavbat666]

Sounds like your DM is using your class to do his job. The Paladin in 3.5, besides being poorly designed, has a poorly written Code of Conduct, which your DM can use to force you to keep the other characters in check, shifting the blame ("I'm just saying, there's a Paladin in the party, it would be a shame if he fell"). You should talk to your DM and make sure he knows that this is annoying you. If he doesn't stop, change your class (play a different character, don't get stuck with levels of fallen Paladin) or leave the table.

Thank you for this advice. I will try and talk to him, and maybe even ask him if I could look at another Paladin code of conduct from another edition. Would any of the 5th edition conducts work well?

[goto124]

Try googling for 'dnd 5e paladin oaths'.

To be honest, I think only one of the Oaths really fits you.

Copied from this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373592-A-Guide-to-the-D-amp-D-5th-Edition-Paladin-through-the-eyes-of-a-3-5-Player):

Sacred Oaths

In all editions save for 4th, the Paladin has a shackle that it can’t ignore: the Code of Conduct. The discussions are decenal (think millenary, but speaking in terms of decades and not of millions of years): “my DM forced me to fall”; “how can I make my Paladin player fall?”, and so on. 4th Edition broke with this paradigm, and 5th attempted to bridge this.

More than any other class, the Paladin’s choice of Sacred Oath affects the character’s roleplaying and mechanical aspects. Rather than have a single kind of character (the holy knight crusading against evil), the Paladin is defined by the oath it takes. Based on that oath, it gains unique powers that follow a similar format, but are distinct from each other. On the other hand, they are somewhat bound to follow the tenets of the oath, or else they may end up losing their powers (or gaining access to the Oathbreaker). However, the penalty for the transgression is not immediate revocation of its powers, so it allows for fallible Paladins that nonetheless strive to follow the good path.

To which I say: about fraggin’ time, Wizards! (No, the “Paladins don’t care about Oaths anymore” doesn’t count.)

Oath of Devotion: A Paladin swearing this oath upholds, protects and serves the Greater Good and the Law, adhering to rigid standards of conduct. In other words: vanilla Paladin flavor.

Oath of the Ancients: A Paladin swearing this oath devotes its life to protect the beauty of nature and to take the side of Light against Darkness. It's rather CG (Chaotic paladins!) and quite hedonist.

Oath of Vengeance: A Paladin swearing this oath is implacable in its fight against evil, at all costs. Basically: Powder Keg of Justice + Grey Guard as a subclass.

[Kane0]

Just think, what would optimus prime do?

[Cikomyr]

Just think, what would optimus prime do?

Hmm..

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings"

...

GUYS! STOP KILLING THE ORCS!

[omnitricks]

All Paladins are to be considered Lawful Anal, Lawful Stupid or generally disruptive with the rest party plotting their demise always ready to act on it until the Paladin proves otherwise.

You can thank the majority of Paladin players for ruining that.

I will also add there has only ever been ONE paladin I was happy to play with. Ever.

[Drynwyn]

First of all: Ignore the paladin code as written in the core book. It's vague as hell and sometimes contradictory.

I recommend looking at Quintessential Paladin (Mongoose Games IIRC), which has some more clearly fleshed-out rules for Paladin codes (and allows for different paladins to have different codes.)


Secondly: As I've commented to Paladin players before, hold yourself to high standards, but permit failings on the part of others. Use lots of persuasion and very little force when you do feel the need to modify another player's behavior. And remember, both in and out of character, that a Paladin, by design, upholds standards that border on impossible to uphold consistently. Not everyone can be expected to live up to the same code of honor- if that was the case, you would have to hold yourself to even higher standards to continue to be a Paladin.

Thirdly: Being a paladin just doesn't work in all groups. "Paragon of Good and Law" just doesn't always work in D&D games. Be prepared for that.

Note: This advice comes to me secondhand from my brother (IronWilliam on these forums), one of the only people I'll unhesitatingly trust to play a Paladin. I hang out in the deep end of the alignment pool personally.

[Honest Tiefling]

Personally, I think you're being more of a doormat then a paladin right now. Tell your DM that you are not there to corral the other players, as you are on equal footing with them. Tell the players that you will work with them to enjoy the game, but to keep out of character...Well, out of character. This seems to have gone beyond hazing, but I could be misinterpreting things. I strongly suggest at least looking into other gaming options...