Magic Initiate Monk

[MaxWilson]

So, monks.

Monks, particularly Shadow Monks but presumably also Death Monks, tend to have excellent mobility and survivability (Mobile + high movement = untouchable in melee, missile catching + high AC = nigh-untouchable in missile combat too). But they suffer from low at-will damage.

The outstanding feature of the Booming Blade cantrip is its awful name. What's "booming energy" anyway? But you could rename it to something good like False Fetters and say that it sheathes your weapon in a cloud of buzzing white smoke which attaches themselves like manacles when you hit somebody with your weapon; the manacles last only for a few moments but tighten painfully the more they move until they finally move more than twelve inches and it shatters in an explosive burst of sound and fury. Same mechanics, less idiotic verbiage, although I'm sure it could be improved further.

But the other outstanding feature of Booming Blade, and to an extent Greenflame Blade, is that it has absolutely zero dependency on your casting stat. Everything depends purely on whether you hit with your weapon attack. Furthermore, Booming Blade encourages you to stay mobile so that your victim has to choose between taking damage to pursue you or staying locked in place, possibly doing nothing for a whole round. (Many monsters do not have ranged attacks.)

So, Magic Initiate (Find Familiar, False Fetters, Greenflame Blade) actually becomes quite a tempting second feat for a Mobile Shadow Monk or Monk of the Long Death. Instead of "Shadow Jump behind the enemy, attack twice (once at advantage for Shadow Jump, once normally) for 2d10+10, move 60' back into the shadows", it becomes "Shadow Jump, attack once at advantage for d10+5+3d8 with a 4d8 rider next round, or attack once for d10+5+3d8 to one target and 4d8+Int to another", which better than doubles damage output. A Monk of Long Death doesn't get the bonus action Shadow Jump, but he does still get the double damage effect, and his damage output triggers his temp HP (Touch of Death), so that's a big deal.

I have a Shadow Monk 11 who was planning on taking Lucky next level, but now I'm torn... DPR is not her primary role, but doubling your at-will DPR while keeping your bonus action free for Patient Defense/Shadow Jump is nothing to scoff at either.

Thoughts?

[Coyote81]

If you group allows SCAG you could take one level of cleric with arcane domain and get your arcane cantrips as cleric cantrips so they would also use wisdom as their spell casting ability. This would let you save an ASI but set you back one level. Just an interesting idea.

[Malifice]

So, monks.

Monks, particularly Shadow Monks but presumably also Death Monks, tend to have excellent mobility and survivability (Mobile + high movement = untouchable in melee, missile catching + high AC = nigh-untouchable in missile combat too). But they suffer from low at-will damage.

The outstanding feature of the Booming Blade cantrip is its awful name. What's "booming energy" anyway? But you could rename it to something good like False Fetters and say that it sheathes your weapon in a cloud of buzzing white smoke which attaches themselves like manacles when you hit somebody with your weapon; the manacles last only for a few moments but tighten painfully the more they move until they finally move more than twelve inches and it shatters in an explosive burst of sound and fury. Same mechanics, less idiotic verbiage, although I'm sure it could be improved further.

But the other outstanding feature of Booming Blade, and to an extent Greenflame Blade, is that it has absolutely zero dependency on your casting stat. Everything depends purely on whether you hit with your weapon attack. Furthermore, Booming Blade encourages you to stay mobile so that your victim has to choose between taking damage to pursue you or staying locked in place, possibly doing nothing for a whole round. (Many monsters do not have ranged attacks.)

So, Magic Initiate (Find Familiar, False Fetters, Greenflame Blade) actually becomes quite a tempting second feat for a Mobile Shadow Monk or Monk of the Long Death. Instead of "Shadow Jump behind the enemy, attack twice (once at advantage for Shadow Jump, once normally) for 2d10+10, move 60' back into the shadows", it becomes "Shadow Jump, attack once at advantage for d10+5+3d8 with a 4d8 rider next round, or attack once for d10+5+3d8 to one target and 4d8+Int to another", which better than doubles damage output. A Monk of Long Death doesn't get the bonus action Shadow Jump, but he does still get the double damage effect, and his damage output triggers his temp HP (Touch of Death), so that's a big deal.

I have a Shadow Monk 11 who was planning on taking Lucky next level, but now I'm torn... DPR is not her primary role, but doubling your at-will DPR while keeping your bonus action free for Patient Defense/Shadow Jump is nothing to scoff at either.

Thoughts?

I dont like it. Multiple attacks = mutliple attempts to stun. I think its maybe trying to turn the Monk into something its not.

[MaxWilson]

If you group allows SCAG you could take one level of cleric with arcane domain and get your arcane cantrips as cleric cantrips so they would also use wisdom as their spell casting ability. This would let you save an ASI but set you back one level. Just an interesting idea.

Thanks. I'm going to pass on that suggestion for a couple of related reasons (it doesn't fit my concept of the character; and I refuse to play clerics) but I appreciate you pointing that out.

[Joe the Rat]

Booming Blade (Or Booming Fist) is incredibly fitting. Booming energy is Thunder energy, which is vibration/reverberation. You've got a no-save "Quivering Palm Lite" effect.

See if your fist can count for the Material Component, with the Verbal being "You're dead. You just don't know it yet."

[BladeWing81]

So you're using magic initiate and also mobile then a third at lvl 8? your dex, wis, and AC stats are going to be permanently stuck in mediocrity.

[BladeWing81]

anyone else thinks monk are way to weak? Mobile feat is a basic need for this class I don't understand why you can only disengage with ki points on the bonus action. both ki and bonus actions are the crux of the class adding more abilities on it seems incredibly taxing.

[Tanarii]

Because giving Mobile for free would be really overpowered? It's already fairly powerful at the cost of just one ASI.

I agree that cost a Ki and the bonus action is fairly heavy. It really should cost 2 ki and not the action. Ki are plentiful, damage isn't.

[BladeWing81]

Because giving Mobile for free would be really overpowered? It's already fairly powerful at the cost of just one ASI.

I agree that cost a Ki and the bonus action is fairly heavy. It really should cost 2 ki and not the action. Ki are plentiful, damage isn't.

or maybe give step of the wind without ki cost but still use the bonus action like the rogue already has. I don't think that would be overpowered.

[Tanarii]

Either way could work. but for a rogue a bonus action is a minor DPR increase. It's primary use is when you missed your attack to try again to land your SA. If you don't miss, then you disengage or hide. So their single attack is still damaging.

For a monk using a bonus action loses 33% of your dpr (after level 5). That's a hefty hit. Ki is worth less than the bonus action. That's why I suggested it. It would give the monk more power.

[BladeWing81]

Either way could work. but for a rogue a bonus action is a minor DPR increase. It's primary use is when you missed your attack to try again to land your SA. If you don't miss, then you disengage or hide. So their single attack is still damaging.

For a monk using a bonus action loses 33% of your dpr (after level 5). That's a hefty hit. Ki is worth less than the bonus action. That's why I suggested it. It would give the monk more power.

I disagree, bonus action is always available, ki points are can be depleted quickly especially in the early levels, if it cost 2 ki points but no bonus action you can probably use it maybe 3 or 4 times then you got nothing, no damage and no survivability either. where as using only the bonus action you hit more on the long term just because you always have an exit from combat.
not to mention you have more chances to use ki on other abilities like stunning strikes, shadow arts from way of the shadow, healing and death strikes for the open palm, spells for the 4 element, and everything else that makes the monk fun. and when the ki is spent you still have the bonus to slip away and survive another day.

[MaxWilson]

So you're using magic initiate and also mobile then a third at lvl 8? your dex, wis, and AC stats are going to be permanently stuck in mediocrity.

Yes, and I've played monks like this so I know exactly what it's like. You're relying on non-AC defenses here. Mobile is generally better than AC.

[Tanarii]

I disagree, bonus action is always available, ki points are can be depleted quickly especially in the early levels, if it cost 2 ki points but no bonus action you can probably use it maybe 3 or 4 times then you got nothing, no damage and no survivability either. where as using only the bonus action you hit more on the long term just because you always have an exit from combat.3 or 4 times *is* the long term in D&D combat, especially since the whole point isn't to be able to get it every single round. Assuming every other round, that's enough for 2 combats, which is the average for a short rest.

Like I said, either would be an improvement over the current Ki and bonus action. But IMO the far harsher part of that is the loss of Bonus Action for damage. It's needed every round. Ki is relatively plentiful. Two points might be too expensive. But one point and no bonus action would be far superior to no points and using your bonus action.

[BladeWing81]

3 or 4 times *is* the long term in D&D combat, especially since the whole point isn't to be able to get it every single round. Assuming every other round, that's enough for 2 combats, which is the average for a short rest.

Like I said, either would be an improvement over the current Ki and bonus action. But IMO the far harsher part of that is the loss of Bonus Action for damage. It's needed every round. Ki is relatively plentiful. Two points might be too expensive. But one point and no bonus action would be far superior to no points and using your bonus action.

We seem to have different ideas of long term then, I've been in 10-12 round encounters really often but because of the ki deficit I have with the monk my usefulness burned out 6 rounds ago and my monk being stabilized during the last 3. Good news is that with the new sun soul monk my damage and survivability just got better only because I no longer go into melee combat at all, not to mention burning hands has made me really good at AOE damage and getting rid of smaller critters.

[Tanarii]

We seem to have different ideas of long term then, I've been in 10-12 round encounters really oftenOh wow. Yeah. That'll change your view all right. I think the longest '1 wave' fight I've ever seen was 10 rounds, and that was an outlier. I'd say I see an average of 5-6 rounds. I've also noticed most people seem to assume what even shorter fights than I do, like 3-5 rounds. I was basing my "2 combats" on that really low standard.

By my normal standard 2 ki per would probably be a bit too expensive. By yours ki is like a precious gem to be hoarded.

[deathbymanga]

Grab Shilleagh.

First Maximize Wisdom. and just keep maximizing it until it's at 20. Now use Clubs or a quarterstaff and be the wisest monk there ever was

[djreynolds]

You need mobile if you enemy has the sentinel feat, how many monsters have that? Disengage works fine otherwise. At 11th level, your unarmed attacks are 1d8, so quarterstaff can be dropped. Rogue is a worthy dip just for expertise and cunning action, saves ki points. Max out dex and wis. 6th level attacks count as magic attacks. Heard the enemy into the tanks and let them clean up.

[BladeWing81]

You need mobile if you enemy has the sentinel feat, how many monsters have that? Disengage works fine otherwise. At 11th level, your unarmed attacks are 1d8, so quarterstaff can be dropped. Rogue is a worthy dip just for expertise and cunning action, saves ki points. Max out dex and wis. 6th level attacks count as magic attacks. Heard the enemy into the tanks and let them clean up.

Mobile is perfect for the monk, it's not just for sentinel, any situation when you can hit and run without using ki points to disengage is just awesome-sauce, not to mention the dash with no difficult terrain and 10ft extra movement. all can be done from lvl 1 with the human variant. I do agree that the rogue dip works wonder with expertise and cunning action and the extra d6 from sneak attack make it way better.

[MaxWilson]

You need mobile if you enemy has the sentinel feat, how many monsters have that? Disengage works fine otherwise. At 11th level, your unarmed attacks are 1d8, so quarterstaff can be dropped. Rogue is a worthy dip just for expertise and cunning action, saves ki points. Max out dex and wis. 6th level attacks count as magic attacks. Heard the enemy into the tanks and let them clean up.

Using Step of the Wind to disengage has two problems IME:

1.) It eats your bonus action, so no Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows/Shadow Jump is allowed that turn.
2.) It costs ki. Like posters here I find ki a precious resource to be hoarded, because Pass Without Trace for a whole party for an hour is far, far better than an extra 4 to 8 points of damage inflicted this round. Just the surprise round from PWT is worth 50 to 100 points of damage, to say nothing of the improved tactical positioning you get from being the ambusher instead of the ambushee.

Between factors #1 and #2, it's usually better for my Wood Elf Shadow Monk to just plink away with a longbow. The exceptions are when she needs to Stunning Strike something in order to plug a leak somewhere, e.g. disable a spellcaster; and when a monster is kind enough to chase her, in which case Mobile lets her attack thrice and retreat without any risk of damage*.

* Or at least, there wouldn't be any risk in standard cyclic initiative. Table rules include speed factor/AD&D initiative instead of cyclic, so the possibility exists of a monster getting to act twice in a row and both catching up to her and rending her before she can attack and skate away. I like it that way.

[Mato]

anyone else thinks monk are way to weak?I think it does all right, it's a defensive/utility class, some expectation for lost damage for those benefits is expected. And the damage scale isn't really too bad either. At low levels it's multiple weaker hits give you a higher chance of doing something useful each round opposed to most everyone elses' all or nothing and in rare cases all the monk's attacks hit which tends to out damage everyone else.

But what it is basically comes back to is opponents and feel. Like against a higher CR'ed opponent the miss chances of great weapon fighting cost more than the damage benefit putting your heavy hitters at a disadvantage they don't like. The monk trends to dealing more per round than them, but it's the same damage scale they always do so they don't feel any better than they normally do. Their survivability comes out the best against higher leveled opponents, but it's not the same as being a caster and going to town on your opponent with every spell slot you have left. So it's the caster's turn to shine, the heavy hitters to feel less useful, and the monk to just repeat monday again in these rare cases of higher level opponents. But, how often does the party face a monster whose CR is a few or even several points higher than the party's?

Mostly it's against groups of lower level trash, the perfect and ideal situation for stuff like great weapon fighting to shine. The ability to quickly clean trash simply gets used more often and it feels great to carve a path through trash, specially when you're expending all your once per short rest abilities (you'll just relax afterwards!) like action surge or channel divinity. Unless you're a four-ways monk, your ki does very little to directly increase your damage. So the monk continues to fell exactly the same as everyone with great weapon or bursts feel even more powerful than usual. It just doesn't have that much of a sell to it.

And it's this trait is what makes a monk the monk to me. It was the same in 3rd, the fighter was supposed to be the general guy but he was far to weak to pull that off, so debate after debate about the midline monk is weak compared to the specialist would pop up with rebuttals of a focused monk compared to the specialist would spring up before, during, and after them. GitP's fascination with monk's in a nutshell is based the monk doing everything proficiently without doing anything awesome without a focus, opposed to how ever other class already has an assumed focus.

If you say barbarian, almost everyone is going to think of a huge brute holding an axe. Except they are really using a greatsword because everyone knows a greatsword is mechanically better. A couple guys in the group well think two small axes are cooler no matter how much their damage suffers. If you say fighter or paladin in fifth you picture the same guy in metal armor, maybe one of them has a halo. Their iconic images are also close to their optimized images. But who pictures an invisible outline twirling around whips of fire when you say monk even through that monk deals 8d10+36 (avg 80) per round and only takes half damage?

I feel like I've lost track on a tangent from where I was going with things. The thing is the monk does just fine, it's a very diverse class with no real iconic feel or image and plagued by feeling the same if you don't try to make it feel unique. And that's my thoughts for today.

[MaxWilson]

If you say barbarian, almost everyone is going to think of a huge brute holding an axe. Except they are really using a greatsword because everyone knows a greatsword is mechanically better. A couple guys in the group well think two small axes are cooler no matter how much their damage suffers. If you say fighter or paladin in fifth you picture the same guy in metal armor, maybe one of them has a halo. Their iconic images are also close to their optimized images. But who pictures an invisible outline twirling around whips of fire when you say monk even through that monk deals 8d10+36 (avg 80) per round and only takes half damage?

Now you've done it. Now conventional wisdom will flip from "Elemental monks are weak and underpowered" to "Elemental monks are OP and should be nerfed." :)

More seriously--that is a cool image but I'm not sure what you're doing to get there. I can see Flurry of Blows (1 ki) plus Fangs of the Fire snake (5 ki) doing 8d10+20 at 20th level, and obviously "takes only half damage" comes from Eternal Mountain Defense (5 ki), but where does the other +16 damage come from?

[georgie_leech]

Now you've done it. Now conventional wisdom will flip from "Elemental monks are weak and underpowered" to "Elemental monks are OP and should be nerfed." :)

More seriously--that is a cool image but I'm not sure what you're doing to get there. I can see Flurry of Blows (1 ki) plus Fangs of the Fire snake (5 ki) doing 8d10+20 at 20th level, and obviously "takes only half damage" comes from Eternal Mountain Defense (5 ki), but where does the other +16 damage come from?

Actually, I think that's Empty Body, which turns you invisible but doesn't involve the spell in any way, halves damage (except force), costs only 4 ki, and has no conditions beyond ending after a minute. Not sure about the other +16 though.

[djreynolds]

Mobile is perfect for the monk, it's not just for sentinel, any situation when you can hit and run without using ki points to disengage is just awesome-sauce, not to mention the dash with no difficult terrain and 10ft extra movement. all can be done from lvl 1 with the human variant. I do agree that the rogue dip works wonder with expertise and cunning action and the extra d6 from sneak attack make it way better.

I can see mobile being a good feat to grab, but I would think max dex would be needed first. I can definitely agree human variant would be wise to grab mobile, but I might be more inclined to take elf if only for +2 dex, long bow, and misty step and mask of the wild and darkvision.

And I guess that's my own dilemma, If I took wood elf, do I max out dex at 4th level and grab mobile at 8 or 12?

[Malifice]

anyone else thinks monk are way to weak?

Not at all. DPR is comparable at low levels to other classes, and from 5th level stunning fist does all the heavy lifting.


Mobile feat is a basic need for this class I don't understand why you can only disengage with ki points on the bonus action.

Shadow monks can teleport as a bonus action, and thanks to a massive move speed, bonus action dashing and wall running, they can generally get where they need to go to deliver that stunning fist and wreck an encounter.

Also; OHM's dont need mobility if they hit. They can stop reaction attacks with a flurry hit. So just punch people you want to disengage from first and then walk away.

Or better yet, stun them.


both ki and bonus actions are the crux of the class adding more abilities on it seems incredibly taxing.

They recharge on a short rest. Depends on how many you get.

[BladeWing81]

I can see mobile being a good feat to grab, but I would think max dex would be needed first. I can definitely agree human variant would be wise to grab mobile, but I might be more inclined to take elf if only for +2 dex, long bow, and misty step and mask of the wild and darkvision.

And I guess that's my own dilemma, If I took wood elf, do I max out dex at 4th level and grab mobile at 8 or 12?

I use the customizing ability score variant to make my characters so even with wood elf Dex Max at lvl 1 is 17 so maxing dex at lvl 4 is not possible for me, Monk is proficient with short bow and mask of the wild and darkvision are great but not game changing so wood elf is great but mobile, alert or skulker feat at lvl 1 for monk is better.
I actually started my character as a wood elf but then changed it to Human Variant to get Mobile the feat at lvl 1 which made everything incredibly awesome, I no longer get hit as often (or at all) and I always have a chance to use flurry of blows since mobile fixes the disengage issue from step of the wind, and after the ki is gone I still make two attacks and pull out without any fear of reaction attacks and with 50ft at lvl 2 movement there's very little chances of my monk being attacked.
I would recommend you try it out, my only issue now is do I want to make palm,death or Shadow monk? (4 elements suck not making that mistake again and sun soul doesn't need mobile). Trust me, once you go mobile you never go back.

[BladeWing81]

Not at all. DPR is comparable at low levels to other classes, and from 5th level stunning fist does all the heavy lifting.

Shadow monks can teleport as a bonus action, and thanks to a massive move speed, bonus action dashing and wall running, they can generally get where they need to go to deliver that stunning fist and wreck an encounter.

Also; OHM's dont need mobility if they hit. They can stop reaction attacks with a flurry hit. So just punch people you want to disengage from first and then walk away.

Or better yet, stun them.

They recharge on a short rest. Depends on how many you get.

Everything you said about OHM is true 'IF' it hits, OHM is only good IF you hit with one of your flurry of blows hits (you only have two chances), I have very little luck with dies so I use the Mobile feat to remove any chance, even if I fail all of my hits (which has happened) during a fight I would still survive with no damage only because mobile doesn't need to hit to stop reaction attacks it only needs me to attack enemies that I make contact with making it even better because I can always try to stun or prone enemies and still get to disengage.

[Malifice]

Everything you said about OHM is true 'IF' it hits, OHM is only good IF you hit with one of your flurry of blows hits (you only have two chances), I have very little luck with dies so I use the Mobile feat to remove any chance, even if I fail all of my hits (which has happened) during a fight I would still survive with no damage only because mobile doesn't need to hit to stop reaction attacks it only needs me to attack enemies that I make contact with making it even better because I can always try to stun or prone enemies and still get to disengage.

Oh I agree mobile is an excellent choice for a monk. My vuman Monks take it as a matter of course. It fits the play style of (precision guided stunning fist delivery system) to a tee.

I just disagree with any argument that monks are crappy in this edition. Theyre just fine (if a bit one dimensional) relying on stunning fist for 1/short rest BBEG/ priority target lock downs.

Theyre the class that I see DM's 'adapt' too most often (and cry about the most) untill Wizard shennanigans come online from about 11th.

[PoeticDwarf]

If you group allows SCAG you could take one level of cleric with arcane domain and get your arcane cantrips as cleric cantrips so they would also use wisdom as their spell casting ability. This would let you save an ASI but set you back one level. Just an interesting idea.

ikr, the level 20 feature of monk is worthless and you can take one level dip in cleric if you want to have this OP cantrip I won't allow anyways, if you want to one level dip later you could also take a rogue levels but that's a whole other thing.

[PoeticDwarf]

Yes, and I've played monks like this so I know exactly what it's like. You're relying on non-AC defenses here. Mobile is generally better than AC.

Yeah, monks and rogues can be better tanks than figthers and paladins with ease. Only the barbarian can use its rage, AC and HP that way even the mobility of a monk/rogue often can't match it, and barbarians have good damage too.

[PoeticDwarf]

Everything you said about OHM is true 'IF' it hits, OHM is only good IF you hit with one of your flurry of blows hits (you only have two chances), I have very little luck with dies so I use the Mobile feat to remove any chance, even if I fail all of my hits (which has happened) during a fight I would still survive with no damage only because mobile doesn't need to hit to stop reaction attacks it only needs me to attack enemies that I make contact with making it even better because I can always try to stun or prone enemies and still get to disengage.

Only have two chances? About level 5 an average monster has like 14AC, you have then +7 to hit (at least). So if you roll one time a 7 or higher you already hit...

[MaxWilson]

Only have two chances? About level 5 an average monster has like 14AC, you have then +7 to hit (at least). So if you roll one time a 7 or higher you already hit...

Against an AC 14 monster, you have a 91% chance of landing at least one hit.

Against an AC 18 monster (CR 1/2 hobgoblin, CR 1 Animated Armor, CR 5 Elite Drow), you have a 75% chance of landing a hit.

Against an AC 20 monster (CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord, CR 4 Helmed Horror), you have a 64% chance of landing a hit.

It really depends on what kind of monster you're fighting.

[BladeWing81]

I've gotten bad rolls and missed all 4 attacks, don't know the AC of the character I only know that 3s, 4s and 5s rarely hit.

[Theodoxus]

I'm seriously considering taking Booming Blade on my swashbuckler. Seems like a fun thing... though I'm not sure where to fit it in. Depends on the campaign style... grabbing MI and RC for a AT feel would be fun, but if magic is rare and I can't find scrolls/spellbooks for the rituals, it'd probably be better to grab ASIs instead.

[djreynolds]

I use a staff and if I hit, I use FOB with unarmed strikes. You can find magic quarterstaffs around, and a dagger or short sword could be used as you main attack because they use your monk damage scale and these might be magical. But magic initiate, could get you bless and that is good for 1 minute, more than enough time for it affect all of you dice rolls and is wisdom based, not that it matters.

But FOB is unarmed and you just have to find away for it land, inspiration and bless are good ways

[Rajah]

So just to be clear, a monk with a club or staff can use these cantrips, but they cannot use a ki point to do flurry of blow? Do they lose their bonus action?

[georgie_leech]

So just to be clear, a monk with a club or staff can use these cantrips, but they cannot use a ki point to do flurry of blow? Do they lose their bonus action?

Flurry of Blows keys off of an Attack, not a Cantrip. A character can't "lose" their Bonus Action. They still have it available for Patient Defense, or any other use. Not that the Martial Arts Bonus Action Attack also needs the Attack Action.

[Malifice]

I'm seriously considering taking Booming Blade on my swashbuckler. Seems like a fun thing... though I'm not sure where to fit it in. Depends on the campaign style... grabbing MI and RC for a AT feel would be fun, but if magic is rare and I can't find scrolls/spellbooks for the rituals, it'd probably be better to grab ASIs instead.

Variant half elf. Swap your bonus skill for High elf magic feature. Gain +2 to charisma, +1 to dex and +1 wherever else you want it.