Half changeling half giant?

[jabberwocky9]

Is there a possibility of making a half changeling half giant race? If so how would you go about it? Would it be mostly homebrew and would it just be made as a half giant lycanthrope? Just throwing it out there for opinions and ideas. Thanks if you can help.

[Red Fel]

Well, when you say Half-Giant, do you mean the Half-Giant race (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm), or simply a half giant generally? Because an easy method is the Half-Ogre template (Dragon Magazine), LA +1, bumps you up in size and does some other stuff. If you also want psionics, you can add the Phrenic template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for LA +2.

So, yeah. Changeling with the Half-Ogre and Phrenic templates. It's a +3 LA, but you can buy that off.

What is it that you want from this combination, specifically? That might help.

[jabberwocky9]

Well, when you say Half-Giant, do you mean the Half-Giant race (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm), or simply a half giant generally? Because an easy method is the Half-Ogre template (Dragon Magazine), LA +1, bumps you up in size and does some other stuff. If you also want psionics, you can add the Phrenic template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for LA +2.
Yep, race.
So, yeah. Changeling with the Half-Ogre and Phrenic templates. It's a +3 LA, but you can buy that off.

What is it that you want from this combination, specifically? That might help.

We're going to be running a Eberron campaign and I have already made a half giant lycanthrope Warshaper from another campaign. The Half Giant/Changeling is just a little different flavor pertaining to Eberron. I was thinking more as a Psychic warrior for this one though.

[Red Fel]

We're going to be running a Eberron campaign and I have already made a half giant lycanthrope Warshaper from another campaign. The Half Giant/Changeling is just a little different flavor pertaining to Eberron. I was thinking more as a Psychic warrior for this one though.

Yes, but what parts are you looking for? The size? The Powerful Build ability? You want Psionics, okay, but what else? Because we could just as easily slap Phrenic on a Changeling and be done with it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's not hard to apply the half-giant (half-human) racial traits as template to a changeling. You get an LA +1 homebrew race, giant (shapechanger), with powerful build and minor shapechange.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you wanted to go the Egoist route it's easy. There is an ACF that grants an Egoist the minor shapeshift ability of a changling as a class feature. Then it's simply a matter of being a half giant egoist 1. You can play up being a shapeshifting melee monster with psionic powers.

[jabberwocky9]

Yes, but what parts are you looking for? The size? The Powerful Build ability? You want Psionics, okay, but what else? Because we could just as easily slap Phrenic on a Changeling and be done with it.

I'm not familiar with the Phrenic template, which I believe gives you psionics? Yes, size, powerful build, shapechange.

[jabberwocky9]

If you wanted to go the Egoist route it's easy. There is an ACF that grants an Egoist the minor shapeshift ability of a changling as a class feature. Then it's simply a matter of being a half giant egoist 1. You can play up being a shapeshifting melee monster with psionic powers.

Interesting, thanks. Will look into it.

[Red Fel]

I'm not familiar with the Phrenic template, which I believe gives you psionics? Yes, size, powerful build, shapechange.

Well, start with Changeling. If you use the Half-Ogre template, you get a size bump, so Powerful Build becomes irrelevant, as you are actually Large. If you just want the equivalent of Powerful Build, you could try for the Jotunbrud feat, or grab Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium), or both, and forget about Half-Ogre. Phrenic (which I linked above) does indeed give you psionics, as well as solid mental stat boosts and free PLAs based on your HD.

You wind up with LA +3, but that's easily bought off.

[Ger. Bessa]

If you plan to use a psionic class, you don't really need psionic abilities in your race... you'll have the powers and pp through psiwarior or egoist (or whatever discipline you choose) anyway.

Phrenic is nice, but is it really worth the LA if you have a manifester level through classes ? No LA means earlier access to buffs/gamebreakers.

[Necroticplague]

If you want Powerful Build without large, Stonedboned Changeling would also work.

[jabberwocky9]

Well, start with Changeling. If you use the Half-Ogre template, you get a size bump, so Powerful Build becomes irrelevant, as you are actually Large. If you just want the equivalent of Powerful Build, you could try for the Jotunbrud feat, or grab Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium), or both, and forget about Half-Ogre. Phrenic (which I linked above) does indeed give you psionics, as well as solid mental stat boosts and free PLAs based on your HD.

You wind up with LA +3, but that's easily bought off.

Cool, thanks. I'll try giving more information next time I post.

[Flickerdart]

Phrenic is nice, but is it really worth the LA if you have a manifester level through classes ? No LA means earlier access to buffs/gamebreakers.
The one nice thing about Phrenic is that powers known are often hard to come by, and PLAs are automatically fully augmented. At level 20, it's giving you 16 "powers known" and an equivalent of 560 PP (20 PP * 26 uses of those powers). That's almost as good as having an entire psionic class! You also get to hop disciplines with Nomad, Kineticist, and Egoist exclusive powers.

Sure, you don't get to choose the powers, and the per-day limit on your powers sucks, but we can also look at it as a prepared spellcaster with the following spells levels prepared: 10/3/2/4/6/0/2/0/0. That's pretty solid for +2 LA you can buy off, even without goodies like power resistance and solid ability boosts.

[SangoProduction]

The one nice thing about Phrenic is that powers known are often hard to come by, and PLAs are automatically fully augmented. At level 20, it's giving you 16 "powers known" and an equivalent of 560 PP (20 PP * 26 uses of those powers). That's almost as good as having an entire psionic class! You also get to hop disciplines with Nomad, Kineticist, and Egoist exclusive powers.

Sure, you don't get to choose the powers, and the per-day limit on your powers sucks, but we can also look at it as a prepared spellcaster with the following spells levels prepared: 10/3/2/4/6/0/2/0/0. That's pretty solid for +2 LA you can buy off, even without goodies like power resistance and solid ability boosts.

Where do you get the "fully augmented" bit? The only relevant thing I saw from the SRD just said that they simply don't use PP for PSAs. And as such, you aren't augmenting it...because you're not using additional PP.

[Necroticplague]

Where do you get the "fully augmented" bit? The only relevant thing I saw from the SRD just said that they simply don't use PP for PSAs. And as such, you aren't augmenting it...because you're not using additional PP.
Bolded to make it easier to find:

All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

[SangoProduction]

Bolded to make it easier to find:

Thanks.

Hmm... I'm going to have to house rule that bit out when it comes up it my games. That is incredibly significant.

[Flickerdart]

Thanks.

Hmm... I'm going to have to house rule that bit out when it comes up it my games. That is incredibly significant.

Why? Remember - creatures with SLAs also get "augmentation" because for spells, the effect automatically scales up to CL. Psionic characters are spending PP on catch-up when augmenting, not getting ahead.

[daremetoidareyo]

Bolded to make it easier to find:

dromite just became more interesting. Off to the statting desk

[Flickerdart]

dromite just became more interesting. Off to the statting desk
Not all that interesting - it's half your HD in d6es of energy damage, once a day. So you can be a crappy warlock for a round. Whee.

[nedz]

I'm trying to picture what a Half-Changeling looks like ?

Do they come in left and right hand sided versions ?

[Necroticplague]

Why? Remember - creatures with SLAs also get "augmentation" because for spells, the effect automatically scales up to CL. Psionic characters are spending PP on catch-up when augmenting, not getting ahead.

1. powers also scale with ML. So this is basically scaling twice. For free.
2. Spells don't typically increase their versatility, utility, or save DC with increased CL. Augmentation can.

[SangoProduction]

Why? Remember - creatures with SLAs also get "augmentation" because for spells, the effect automatically scales up to CL. Psionic characters are spending PP on catch-up when augmenting, not getting ahead.

Because the psionic abilities *do* scale with levels? I mean, just going through the one I happen to have open at the time of reading your comment: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/aversion.htm
Hours/level. doubled with free augments, and +DC = to HD...pretty sure most spells don't do that. (And of course the range, but who cares.)

And, as you already mentioned, it's so many equivalent power points as to have an entire extra class.
...
As a "casting"-type...

Yeah...no problems there.

[Flickerdart]

1. powers also scale with ML. So this is basically scaling twice. For free.
2. Spells don't typically increase their versatility, utility, or save DC with increased CL. Augmentation can.
1. Wow. Okay. What psionic power scales by manifester level and also has augmentations that provide more of the same scaling? Because all of the abilities that are, for instance, 1d6/CL damage in the spell version are "Xd6 damage, +1d6 damage per PP of augmentation" for psionics.
2. That's because augmentation is used a stand-in for all the "lesser X, X, greater X" thing. If an augmentable PLA is given to a monster with enough HD, it's because it was meant to be given a level-appropriate power, not because the designers wanted to give it useless low-level abilities.

Take, for instance, the udoroot. With this fearmongering-based houserule, it summons 1st level astral constructs and deals 1d10 damage with mind thrust as a CR5 monster. Its manifesting may as well be useless page-filler garbage. It only becomes worth its CR when you don't get rid of rules without understanding why they exist.


Because the psionic abilities *do* scale with levels? I mean, just going through the one I happen to have open at the time of reading your comment: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/aversion.htm
Hours/level. doubled with free augments, and +DC = to HD...pretty sure most spells don't do that.
The duration thing is an exception (ML only boosts the duration here), and the +DC is just to make sure the DC remains level-appropriate. A level 20 caster using a 2nd level spell? Not likely to accomplish much of anything.

[SangoProduction]

1. Wow. Okay. What psionic power scales by manifester level and also has augmentations that provide more of the same scaling?

I did just link a "Hours/level" and an "Hours/Power Point"....lol. Not Fearmongering, but what you are saying is incorrect.

[SangoProduction]

The duration thing is an exception (ML only boosts the duration here), and the +DC is just to make sure the DC remains level-appropriate. A level 20 caster using a 2nd level spell? Not likely to accomplish much of anything.

So, are you arguing that casting a level 2 SLA would not be useless? (Probably not because of the infinite number of books that are entirely devoted to boosting the spells wizards have, but not the point - many being extremely unbalanced, even in core.)

[Flickerdart]

I did just link a "Hours/level" and an "Hours/Power Point"....lol. Not Fearmongering, but what you are saying is incorrect.
Oh boo hoo, one power lasts an hour longer, everyone get torches and pitchforks and nerf an entire subsystem.

[SangoProduction]

Oh boo hoo, one power lasts an hour longer, everyone get torches and pitchforks and nerf an entire subsystem.

Did I strike a nerve, or are you just always like that?
Anyway, it lasts twice as long, which is at minimum an hour longer. So, if we are using the minimum as the scale of balance, then shouldn't we be looking to fighter instead of psionics?
It's definitely not broken to have a second class's powers, as you said yourself.
And 2nd level spell like abilities should be equivalent to what a level 20 spell caster would use. Definitely. None are... (in core at least)

Whatever, have fun. I've got little interest in conversing with someone like you.

[Flickerdart]

Anyway, it lasts twice as long, which is at minimum an hour longer.
So it's Extend SLA. For one power. It's not a good reason to nerf every monster that relies on PLAs into uselessness.

[DrMotives]

I'm trying to picture what a Half-Changeling looks like ?

Do they come in left and right hand sided versions ?

Changelings are already fluffed as half-humanoid, half doppelganger things that have bred true into their own race. This thread is just about replacing the humanoid ancestry with giant. So they'd look like a bigger changeling.

[Necroticplague]

1. Wow. Okay. What psionic power scales by manifester level and also has augmentations that provide more of the same scaling? Because all of the abilities that are, for instance, 1d6/CL damage in the spell version are "Xd6 damage, +1d6 damage per PP of augmentation" for psionics. Expansion (1round/CL, augment to multiply duration by 10), Just off the top of my head.


2. That's because augmentation is used a stand-in for all the "lesser X, X, greater X" thing.
Precicely.The scaling for an SLA will never turn a Charm Person SLA into a Charm Monster SLA. However, augmentation does allow for that to occur. Thus, free augmentation is not analogous to the fact that spells scale with CL.


If an augmentable PLA is given to a monster with enough HD, it's because it was meant to be given a level-appropriate power, not because the designers wanted to give it useless low-level abilities.
Take, for instance, the udoroot. With this fearmongering-based houserule, it summons 1st level astral constructs and deals 1d10 damage with mind thrust as a CR5 monster. Its manifesting may as well be useless page-filler garbage. It only becomes worth its CR when you don't get rid of rules without understanding why they exist. On this, I wholeheartedly agree. I believe houseruling it away would be unwise, especially as it effects psionics monsters. The only point I disagreed on was that augmentation was analogous to spells scaling with CL.

[SangoProduction]

On this, I wholeheartedly agree. I believe houseruling it away would be unwise, especially as it effects psionics monsters. The only point I disagreed on was that augmentation was analogous to spells scaling with CL.

You can change player options without affecting monsters.

[Necroticplague]

You can change player options without affecting monsters.

Not without either maintaining a purposeful deception or breaking verisimilitude.

[Flickerdart]

You can change player options without affecting monsters.
"This is how PLAs work for monsters, and this is how PLAs work for people who aren't allowed to have nice things."

[SangoProduction]

Not without either maintaining a purposeful deception or breaking verisimilitude.

Or just saying "Player characters don't get free PSA augments." Of course, CR is notorious, so you have to individually judge each creature you use anyway. If you want to apply it unilaterally across all PSA, it changes nothing about how you have to go about determining if the creature(s) are appropriate for the party.

Anyway, we are getting off topic. Let's get back to the changeling thing.

[Necroticplague]

Or just saying "Player characters don't get free PSA augments." That's the verisimilitude-breaking option. One's status as a PC does not exist in-universe, so what explanation is there for them to oddly have weaker innate psionic powers.

[SangoProduction]

That's the verisimilitude-breaking option. One's status as a PC does not exist in-universe, so what explanation is there for them to oddly have weaker innate psionic powers.

It just happened that way. The same reason why the PCs just happen to be in the middle of a major story line. If it wasn't that way, they wouldn't be the ones that they story follows.

Why are storm troopers such bad shots? They aren't, the characters just got really lucky, and them not dying let them be the centers of the story.

It's more verisimilitude-breaking to have everything work the exactly the same way for every person, like they were made from cookie cutters. But it's not actually an issue.

[Flickerdart]

It's more verisimilitude-breaking to have everything work the exactly the same way for every person, like they were made from cookie cutters.
Yes - if my enemy runs around stabbing people with a legendary sword, and I kill him and take his sword, and then the sword is suddenly a plastic butter knife, that's super realistic and doesn't break my immersion at all.

[Necroticplague]

It's more verisimilitude-breaking to have everything work the exactly the same way for every person, like they were made from cookie cutters. But it's not actually an issue.

How does that break versimilitude? The same rules apply to everyone, barring an ability that says otherwise (which is, itself, consistent across all copies of that ability).Given how real life doesn't change the laws of physics based on your importance, that seems very easy to intuit in a game.

[Troacctid]

Psi-like abilities are balanced around automatic scaling; that's the intended behavior. The Phrenic template takes the scaling of its powers into account as part of its +2 LA; if the manifester level were fixed, it would likely have a different level adjustment, a different set of powers, or both. Removing the scaling would be akin to saying that humans only get their bonus skill points at 1st level, or that raptorans never gain a fly speed.

[SangoProduction]

How does that break versimilitude? The same rules apply to everyone, barring an ability that says otherwise (which is, itself, consistent across all copies of that ability).Given how real life doesn't change the laws of physics based on your importance, that seems very easy to intuit in a game.

While the characters don't know it, they are different. They are special in some way. *Cut out ramblings*
If they weren't different, there wouldn't be a difference between NPC classes and PC classes.

As to how it breaks it: because I say it is. Versimilitude is subjective like that. Thus is really never a great argument, but as I said, it doesn't really matter.


Psi-like abilities are balanced around automatic scaling; that's the intended behavior. The Phrenic template takes the scaling of its powers into account as part of its +2 LA; if the manifester level were fixed, it would likely have a different level adjustment, a different set of powers, or both. Removing the scaling would be akin to saying that humans only get their bonus skill points at 1st level, or that raptorans never gain a fly speed.

I'd have to disagree with the notion that there's even the idea of "balance". There are categorically better and worse options for literally everything. But that's fine as everyone knows it's not balanced, and plays according to their table (hopefully).

But, 1 extra skill point or the permanent equivalent of 1 spell is not quite the same scale as "get the equivalent spell casting ability of a whole other class."

[Troacctid]

But, 1 extra skill point or the permanent equivalent of 1 spell is not quite the same scale as "get the equivalent spell casting ability of a whole other class."

I could only think of +0 LA races off the top of my head. So sue me. If you want a higher-LA example, imagine removing hide in plain sight from the dark creature template, or removing the ability score adjustments from half-dragon, or deleting all the spell-like abilities from half-fey except for one or two.

Most characters wouldn't give up two levels in order to gain a casting progression. That's why every caster isn't a theurge. I don't go around nerfing theurges in my houserules and neither should you.

[SangoProduction]

I could only think of +0 LA races off the top of my head. So sue me. If you want a higher-LA example, imagine removing hide in plain sight from the dark creature template, or removing the ability score adjustments from half-dragon, or deleting all the spell-like abilities from half-fey except for one or two.

Perhaps a bit more comparable. Except that the change doesn't remove them. Just keeps a basic growth rather than a multiplicative and evolving growth (some of which are comparable as a Charm Person SLA became Charm Monster and then Dominate Monster, for no additional cost).
It's making it so you don't gain the casting of an entire 20-level class in 2 level-equivalents.


Most characters wouldn't give up two levels in order to gain a casting progression. That's why every caster isn't a theurge. I don't go around nerfing theurges in my houserules and neither should you.

Actually, most players only don't give up levels *because* they'd lose casting progression. Those without such progression often don't care because those levels aren't that important anyway, compared to the templates (in fact, are generally just plain not very important, but not the point). Also, PRCs don't have LA buy off which lets them level up as though they were lower level.

[Necroticplague]

While the characters don't know it, they are different. They are special in some way. *Cut out ramblings* It sounds ridiculously contrived that all the people the story focuses on with natural psionic ability are really bad at using it, while all others can use it more competently.


As to how it breaks it: because I say it is. Versimilitude is subjective like that. Thus is really never a great argument, but as I said, it doesn't really matter. Saying something appears real has absolutely no bearing as to whether it actually looks real.



I'd have to disagree with the notion that there's even the idea of "balance". There are categorically better and worse options for literally everything. But that's fine as everyone knows it's not balanced, and plays according to their table (hopefully).

If not for balance, why the PLA nerf then? If it's powerful, it just belongs in the category of 'categorically better options'.

[SangoProduction]

It sounds ridiculously contrived that all the people the story focuses on with natural psionic ability are really bad at using it, while all others can use it more competently.

Saying something appears real has absolutely no bearing as to whether it actually looks real.




If not for balance, why the PLA nerf then? If it's powerful, it just belongs in the category of 'categorically better options'.

1) It just worked out that way if you are in my table. Simple as that. Not everyone who works *really* hard to be a programmer ends up being a good programmer.

2) "Appears", and "looks", are synonymous. Should be self-explanatory what the problem is with that argument.

3) Because I'd prefer it to be usable, if in a more reasonable state, than be out right banned.

[Troacctid]

Perhaps a bit more comparable. Except that the change doesn't remove them. Just keeps a basic growth rather than a multiplicative and evolving growth (some of which are comparable as a Charm Person SLA became Charm Monster and then Dominate Monster, for no additional cost).

The point is, it's supposed to scale the way it does. It's a feature, not a bug. The whole point of the abilities is that they scale, or else Mind Thrust and Defensive Precognition and the like wouldn't be on there at all. Why would you randomly nerf it? That's just senseless. You might as well say "Fireball deals 1d6 damage PER LEVEL? That's crazy! It should just deal a flat 5d6 damage."


Actually, most players only don't give up levels *because* they'd lose casting progression. Those without such progression often don't care because those levels aren't that important anyway, compared to the templates (in fact, are generally just plain not very important, but not the point). Also, PRCs don't have LA buy off which lets them level up as though they were lower level.
All Rogues aren't Unseen Seers, all Monks aren't Sacred Fists, all Crusaders aren't Jade Phoenix Mages, all Totemists aren't Soulcasters, all Warlocks aren't Eldritch Disciples, all Binders aren't Anima Mages, all Fighters aren't Abjurant Champions, all Rangers aren't Illithid Slayers...

[SangoProduction]

The point is, it's supposed to scale the way it does. It's a feature, not a bug. The whole point of the abilities is that they scale, or else Mind Thrust and Defensive Precognition and the like wouldn't be on there at all. Why would you randomly nerf it? That's just senseless. You might as well say "Fireball deals 1d6 damage PER LEVEL? That's crazy! It should just deal a flat 5d6 damage."

I've already explained my reasons. Asking again won't get different answers.

Perhaps we should return to the OP's question?

[Necroticplague]

Not everyone who works *really* hard to be a programmer ends up being a good programmer. That might be relevant if we were in any way talking about things you practice, which are represented by class levels in this system, instead of an innate, inborn ability, which we are.


2) "Appears", and "looks", are synonymous. Should be self-explanatory what the problem is with that argument. Unfortunately, it doesn't explain itself to me. Please, do enlighten me.


3) Because I'd prefer it to be usable, if in a more reasonable state, than be out right banned.

And again, if balance wasn't a concern, then why the ban? It can just remain as a "categorically more powerful option" (assuming that Phrenic is significantly more powerful than other options, itself debatable).

[SangoProduction]

That might be relevant if we were in any way talking about things you practice, which are represented by class levels in this system, instead of an innate, inborn ability, which we are.

Unfortunately, it doesn't explain itself to me. Please, do enlighten me.

And again, if balance wasn't a concern, then why the ban? It can just remain as a "categorically more powerful option" (assuming that Phrenic is significantly more powerful than other options, itself debatable).

1) So a dog will have the exact same hearing as another dog?

2) Because "looks" and "appears" are synonymous. Which means saying "'looks' is not 'appears'" is incorrect.

3) Balance wasn't a concern for the designers. That wasn't the utmost obvious from my first saying this, sorry.
It *could* simply stay in the categorically more powerful option, but then it wouldn't get to be played at my table.

[Necroticplague]

1) So a dog will have the exact same hearing as another dog? No, but when they have different hearing, there exists an identifiable reason for it.


2) Because "looks" and "appears" are synonymous. Which means saying "'looks' is not 'appears'" is incorrect. Ah. You've entirely missed the point, which is that you saying something doesn't make it true.


3) Balance wasn't a concern for the designers. That wasn't the utmost obvious from my first saying this, sorry.

The very existance of LA, CR, ECL, and LA buyoff provide good evidence of it being a concern. They did a piss job of it, but it was a concern.

[jabberwocky9]

Well, start with Changeling. If you use the Half-Ogre template, you get a size bump, so Powerful Build becomes irrelevant, as you are actually Large. If you just want the equivalent of Powerful Build, you could try for the Jotunbrud feat, or grab Strongarm Bracers (Magic Item Compendium), or both, and forget about Half-Ogre. Phrenic (which I linked above) does indeed give you psionics, as well as solid mental stat boosts and free PLAs based on your HD.

You wind up with LA +3, but that's easily bought off.

How do you determine as half ogre and half changeling what benefits you receive with a half changeling. Is that house rules or is there somewhere that explains making a half race?

[SangoProduction]

How do you determine as half ogre and half changeling what benefits you receive with a half changeling. Is that house rules or is there somewhere that explains making a half race?

Just take the regular changeling and add the half-ogre template. That's how all other half-things are done in 3e.


No, but when they have different hearing, there exists an identifiable reason for it.

Ah. You've entirely missed the point, which is that you saying something doesn't make it true.

The very existance of LA, CR, ECL, and LA buyoff provide good evidence of it being a concern. They did a piss job of it, but it was a concern.

1) Yes, including genetics, which is less than identifiable even with modern tools, and I didn't see any books with "Read/decipher genetic code" spells...so yeah.
For example, I am essentially blind. There is no identifiable (by my current means and money) disease or other reason. It just is.

2) Except that what's being referred to is a subjective subject (what "looks real"). So, no one is ever incorrect when saying such and such about it. And thus why it's a bad piece for an argument.

3) Thanks, so you agree.

[Debihuman]

How do you determine as half ogre and half changeling what benefits you receive with a half changeling. Is that house rules or is there somewhere that explains making a half race?

Add up all the features and divide by two (and drop any odd left features for rounding down). It's time consuming but doable. Also, you could just pick from column A half-ogre and Column B changeling. There are many ways to do this. Not all will give you the same results.

You could also take the half-giant and add the doppelganger bloodline.

Debby

[SangoProduction]

You could also take the half-giant and add the doppelganger bloodline.

lol...yeah. You could do that.

[Debihuman]

You could also make either half giant (Augmented Changeling) or a Changeling (Augmented half-giant)

Augmented creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

Debby

[Necroticplague]

1) Yes, including genetics, which is less than identifiable even with modern tools, and I didn't see any books with "Read/decipher genetic code" spells...so yeah.
For example, I am essentially blind. There is no identifiable (by my current means and money) disease or other reason. It just is.

2) Except that what's being referred to is a subjective subject (what "looks real"). So, no one is ever incorrect when saying such and such about it. And thus why it's a bad piece for an argument.

3) Thanks, so you agree.

1. There's a difference between "a reason you can't find" and "no reason". The former can be interacted with, if in a black box fashion, while the latter cannot. I.e, I may not know why I'm shortsighted beyond 'runs in the family', but I can use glasses to fix it, because there is some underlying reason the glasses interact with.

Side note, genetics isn't a reason for anything, at least not directly. All genetics do is determine what proteins the body produces, which chains up to structural changes in cells which can effect things.

Side-side note, genetics being an excuse for poor innate psionic ability only really works if the PCs are all closely related.

2.One can make false statements about how something looks. I could say a dog looks like an octopus. I'd be wrong. Similarly, you could say that consistent rules somehow don't look like reality. You'd also be wrong, because reality does run on consistent rules for everyone (note this refers to physical rules, not societal ones).

3. Errr....not seeing how you got that. You said that balance wasn't a concern for the developers (with the implication being that it is for you, since the previous topic of this chain was questioning why you would make this decision if balance wasn't a concern for you), and I pointed to several things that show it was. The fact that stronger innate abilities are paid for by losing some class abilities shows that balance was a concern. The fact you can later buy off said LA as the innate abilities become less useful also shows such. The fact that the CR system doesn't change based on party makeup (though EL might) also shows it. These are not in agreement with your statement, but direct contrast.

[SangoProduction]

1. There's a difference between "a reason you can't find" and "no reason". The former can be interacted with, if in a black box fashion, while the latter cannot. I.e, I may not know why I'm shortsighted beyond 'runs in the family', but I can use glasses to fix it, because there is some underlying reason the glasses interact with.

Side note, genetics isn't a reason for anything, at least not directly. All genetics do is determine what proteins the body produces, which chains up to structural changes in cells which can effect things.

Side-side note, genetics being an excuse for poor innate psionic ability only really works if the PCs are all closely related.

2.One can make false statements about how something looks. I could say a dog looks like an octopus. I'd be wrong. Similarly, you could say that consistent rules somehow don't look like reality. You'd also be wrong, because reality does run on consistent rules for everyone (note this refers to physical rules, not societal ones).

3. Errr....not seeing how you got that. You said that balance wasn't a concern for the developers (with the implication being that it is for you, since the previous topic of this chain was questioning why you would make this decision if balance wasn't a concern for you), and I pointed to several things that show it was. The fact that stronger innate abilities are paid for by losing some class abilities shows that balance was a concern. The fact you can later buy off said LA as the innate abilities become less useful also shows such. The fact that the CR system doesn't change based on party makeup (though EL might) also shows it. These are not in agreement with your statement, but direct contrast.

1) Yes, and the reason is "because I said so." They can interact with it as they please. And the argument about genetics was an example of something that can't be identified, but Google "convergent evolution" and you'll get the macro-level of a counter argument of yours. And no the glasses don't interact with an underlying issue. It simply works around it. Like how blind sight doesn't interact with actually being blind.
And...having look up genetic disorders. They do affect things.

2) ...Only in reference to how something looks to someone else. If both a dog and an octopus are black splotches on a white background, they to them, they are the same and it doesn't matter how you see it, because he is not wrong a dog does look like an octopus.
It's because it's subjective. No amount of arguing about it will make one or the other wrong. They are both correct by their own perspectives.

3) "They did a piss job." That damned crab would agree. The Fighter with Toughness vs Wizard with [anything else] would agree. And that flying enemy vs no spell casters or archers would also agree.
It's up to the DM to decide what the party might actually be able to handle, and CRs are as often detrimental to use as they are helpful for the newest of DMs.

[ShurikVch]

Changelings are descendants of Humans and Doppelgangers

Half-Doppelganger template is in the same article as a Half-Ogre

[Necroticplague]

1) Yes, and the reason is "because I said so." They can interact with it as they please. And the argument about genetics was an example of something that can't be identified, but Google "convergent evolution" and you'll get the macro-level of a counter argument of yours. And no the glasses don't interact with an underlying issue. It simply works around it. Like how blind sight doesn't interact with actually being blind.
And...having look up genetic disorders. They do affect things.

2) ...Only in reference to how something looks to someone else. If both a dog and an octopus are black splotches on a white background, they to them, they are the same and it doesn't matter how you see it, because he is not wrong a dog does look like an octopus.
It's because it's subjective. No amount of arguing about it will make one or the other wrong. They are both correct by their own perspectives.

3) "They did a piss job." That damned crab would agree. The Fighter with Toughness vs Wizard with [anything else] would agree. And that flying enemy vs no spell casters or archers would also agree.
It's up to the DM to decide what the party might actually be able to handle, and CRs are as often detrimental to use as they are helpful for the newest of DMs.

1. "Because I said so" is the out-of universe reason. At no point were we discussing that (because either way, it's relatively arbitrary. It's either because the GM said so, or because the rules said so). We were talking about in-universe.

2.Interesting. So do you think the laws of physics act differently upon different people?

3. Doing a poor job at something is different from not even trying to do the job at all.

[Maxrim]

Hey, I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, you were talking about porting over a half giant lycanthrope into a half giant changeling for Eberron. I want to make sure you're aware of the difference between changelings and shifters, changelings are descended from doppelgangers, shifters from lycanthropes.

[SangoProduction]

1. "Because I said so" is the out-of universe reason. At no point were we discussing that (because either way, it's relatively arbitrary. It's either because the GM said so, or because the rules said so). We were talking about in-universe.

2.Interesting. So do you think the laws of physics act differently upon different people?

3. Doing a poor job at something is different from not even trying to do the job at all.

1) In-universe is "it just happened to be so." Boom. Luck. Or fate. Whatever you wish to say. It doesn't matter.

2) No, because that's generally not subjective (of course, when you're a mage, they are subjective). And there are planes out there that act differently on different people/items/whatever.
But in the real world? No. Because it's not subjective. But you started off talking about "what I perceive as not realistic", which is subjective. This is a non-sequitur in the same way "Because water, therefore God" is.

3) Congrats you realized what was trying to be conveyed, I take it.

[Necroticplague]

1) In-universe is "it just happened to be so." Boom. Luck. Or fate. Whatever you wish to say. It doesn't matter. That explains why it does in either direction. it doesn't explain why one Phrenic human is oddly more capable of using their innate SLAs than another, unless the PC label exists within the universe.

[SangoProduction]

That explains why it does in either direction. it doesn't explain why one Phrenic human is oddly more capable of using their innate SLAs than another, unless the PC label exists within the universe.

Let's make this clear one more time. If you willingly disbelieve (since it's been said multiple times now), that's your prerogative. I won't respond to you asking the same question, seemingly expecting a different answer. I kept doing so because you stayed relatively civil, but your are getting somewhat boring. The PCs just happen to not have the full effect of the template. It just worked out that way. That's how the "dice" rolled. That's where the "hand of fate" pointed. *Insert more analogies.*

[Flickerdart]

Let's make this clear one more time. If you willingly disbelieve (since it's been said multiple times now), that's your prerogative. The PCs just happen to not have the full effect of the template. It just worked out that way. That's how the "dice" rolled.
What if a PC with the template retires and becomes an NPC, or a new player picks up an established NPC with the Phrenic template? Does it flip? How does that make sense?

[SangoProduction]

What if a PC with the template retires and becomes an NPC, or a new player picks up an established NPC with the Phrenic template? Does it flip? How does that make sense?
...Meh, you at least kept it civil in this post. I'll respond.

Where are you getting the idea that something flips function in the same *object just because of its status as PC or NPC? All that was declared was that if it's a PC, they don't get the phrenic's 500+ Power Points. That doesn't mean they'd suddenly get it if it became an NPC (unless there was a story reason for it, but that'd work for either).

*object being defined as anything, from characters to "swords"

[Flickerdart]

...Meh, you at least kept it civil in this post. I'll respond.

Where are you getting the idea that something flips function in the same *object just because of its status as PC or NPC? All that was declared was that if it's a PC, they don't get the phrenic's 200+ Power Points. That doesn't mean they'd suddenly get it if it became an NPC (unless there was a story reason for it, but that'd work for either).

*object being defined as anything, from characters to "swords"
So a Phrenic NPC that becomes a PC keeps the proper ruling?

[SangoProduction]

So a Phrenic NPC that becomes a PC keeps the proper ruling?

The ruling that gives about double the PP of a psion of the same level?

No. Because it wouldn't happen.

[Flickerdart]

The ruling that gives about double the PP of a psion of the same level?

No. Because it wouldn't happen.
That's not an answer. If such a thing happens, does the PC keep the NPC version of augmentation, or does he spontaneously lose it?

[Necroticplague]

The ruling that gives about double the PP of a psion of the same level?

No. Because it wouldn't happen.

Double the PP, but unable to split it up like a psion normally does and can. A normal Psion can divy up his psionics by manifesting things that are less than his manifester level, while the Phrenic creature has to spend it in 20-PP chunk equivalents.

And do note, it's only equivalent power points. in terms of actual power points, Phrenic creatures only have 1. It makes a big difference for things can use power points, but not PLA uses.

[SangoProduction]

That's not an answer. If such a thing happens, does the PC keep the NPC version of augmentation, or does he spontaneously lose it?

No, the PC does not change just because a player stopped using it. And any "NPC" which the player plays as was always destined to be a PC. Of course, no PC actually is an NPC that was already introduced in my games, so the answer is "null" because the question doesn't even apply.

[Flickerdart]

No, the PC does not change just because a player stopped using it. And any "NPC" which the player plays as was always destined to be a PC.
Even if the NPC appeared and fought in combat using his NPC powers before a new player came in and said "can I be that guy"?


Of course, no PC actually is an NPC that was already introduced in my games, so the question is "null" because the question doesn't even apply.
In games I've participated in, players that are new to an established campaign sometimes take over an existing ally of the party so they have a solid story reason for being there. Shame that you cut off that avenue because you hate PCs getting nice things that characters you control are allowed to have.

[SangoProduction]

Even if the NPC appeared and fought in combat using his NPC powers before a new player came in and said "can I be that guy"?


In games I've participated in, players that are new to an established campaign sometimes take over an existing ally of the party so they have a solid story reason for being there. Shame that you cut off that avenue because you hate PCs getting nice things that characters you control are allowed to have.

1) I already said the answer is no. They can't be an NPC, because they aren't PCs.

2) Sigh. And now back to the the saying "You hate nice things". I had hoped you had changed after your nap. Oh well, back to the ignore bucket with you.