Checking for glaring holes in defense

[Jowgen]

I am working on a melee character that's meant to be highly durable. This is not meant to be an invincible ikea-tarrasque type thing, but simply a character who is really damn hard to take down because of assorted immunites, resistances and constant healing. Character concept is the vanguard warrior who charges into enemy lines and wreaks havoc as they struggle to repel the assault.

It got a decent list of immunites to avoid most common sources of HP damage, ways to quickly heal back HP and ability damage, and some immunities against common horrible effects. His Will-save isn't amazing and his AC is no real challange though. I'm not looking for anything on offensive capacity, but I guess for context I should mention he hits things for about 60-odd damage with around 80% accuracy against most expected enemies.

In this thread I am just looking for any hard counters to someone with this list of abilities that I might have over-looked. Not really looking for general character optimization, just checking for glaring holes in defenses. :smallsmile:

Flat out immunities:

-Mind-affecting (Ex, racial)
-Death Spells (Soulfire)
-Magical Death Effects (Soulfire)
-Energy Drain/Negative Levels (Soulfire)
-Negative Energy Effects (Soulfire)
-Fire (subtype for 16200 gp via mantle of the fiery spirit)
-Cold (Saint)
-Acid (Saint)
-Electricity (Saint)
-Petrification (Saint)
-Possession (Saint aura)
-0-3rd level effects originating from more than 20 ft away (Saint aura)
-Gases and Vapors (Necklace of Adaptation)
-Drowning/Suffocation (Necklace of Adaptation)
-Old age (racial)

Resistances and other mitigators

-Mettle (Pious Templar) & Fort 30+ & Will 20+
-Evasion (Ring) & Reflex 30+
-Re-roll Nat 1 on saves (Pride domain via touchstone)
-Total concealment (Vapor Bottle)
-Faster Ability Healing (Naberius)
-Ex flight 90 ft good (template)
-A little DR

Specific Counters:
-Polymorph effect reversal via Shapechanger subtype (Wereglade)
-Charger discouragement through responsive attacks (Steadfast Boots, Intercepting weapon, reach 20)
-Fast Healing + Wrathful healing weapon + Robilar's Gambit to regain HP
-Headband of Ferocity + Delay Death eternal wand for temp HP damage limit removal 2/day
-Extraplanar subtype on material plane and virtually all others to apply mettle VS Blasphemy & co
-Mageslayer + Pierce Magical concealment + high single hit damage VS threatened spellcasters
-Large range of special senses to counter stealth
-Ritual of Shadow-walking (LoD) for emergency grapple escape and similar
-Minor Artifact openly carried to discourage Disjunction
-Spellblade weapons keyed to Wish

Known weaknesses
-Sonic, Force and weird damage types can potentially damage faster than he can heal
-Deafness removes access to Pierce Magical Concealment
-Vulnerable to being kicked out via Dismissal, Plane Shift and such due to low-ish Will save
-Can be dazed, stunned and or paralyzed by non-mind-affecting effects
-Sufficient non-energy drain ability damage might outpace Naberius's healing
-Ability penalties

[Flickerdart]

Do you have any way of dealing with fall damage (both you falling, and things falling on you)?

How many of your defenses turn off in an antimagic field?

Do you expect to come up against untyped SoDs like a pyroclastic dragon's breath (Fort save or "crumble to ash")?

How do you handle Holy Word and similar no-save no death descriptor effects?

[Jowgen]

Do you have any way of dealing with fall damage (both you falling, and things falling on you)?

How many of your defenses turn off in an antimagic field?

Anit-Impact armor from CW halves stuff like falling/crushing, but that's about. Didn't include it in the list because it seemed minor.

AMF kills that, the Soulfire-armor based immunities, the saint aura, the gas/vapor/suffocation immunity, the naberius healing, Mettle and Evasion, maybe the Vapor bottle concealment (might be classed as conjuration creation entering), most of the charging responders, the wrathful healing and robialr's gambit combo, the delay death combo, the ritual of shadow walking, a few special senses, and the Spellblade weapon.

I didn't consider AMF to be much of a threat since it's normally only a 10 ft emanation (vs reach 20) and shuts down most of the same things the immuniteis cover, but I suppose it could still be used (e.g. AMF guy kamikaze in to give heavy-hitters an opening). :smallconfused:

EDIT:


Do you expect to come up against untyped SoDs like a pyroclastic dragon's breath (Fort save or "crumble to ash")?

How do you handle Holy Word and similar no-save no death descriptor effects?

I wouldn't be surprised to encounter them, but seeing how unique and far-inbetween they are, I didn't bother looking for specific counters to them other than "lots and lots of Fort". :smallfrown:

Holy Word and co are handled via a RAW combo of Mettle with being extraplanar. Being extraplanar adds a save-or-dismissal effect that one can save against, and if the save is made mettle comes into effect to negate the rest of the spell's effect. That being said, this is specifically for the Holy Word group, and there might be other effects this doesn't work against.

[Flickerdart]

Anit-Impact armor from CW halves stuff like falling/crushing, but that's about. Didn't include it in the list because it seemed minor.
"My invisible unseen servants drop shrink item'd tungsten rods from orbit" seems to be the default "lol casters rule martials drool" retort whenever someone brings a build like this up.

As for AMF, arcane archers with Imbue Arrow AMFs are a thing one out of a million times.



Holy Word and co are handled via a RAW combo of Mettle with being extraplanar. Being extraplanar adds a save-or-dismissal effect that one can save against, and if the save is made mettle comes into effect to negate the rest of the spell's effect. That being said, this is specifically for the Holy Word group, and there might be other effects this doesn't work against.
In that case, I recommend the Divine Defiance feat, just in case.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Holy Word and co are handled via a RAW combo of Mettle with being extraplanar. Being extraplanar adds a save-or-dismissal effect that one can save against, and if the save is made mettle comes into effect to negate the rest of the spell's effect. That being said, this is specifically for the Holy Word group, and there might be other effects this doesn't work against.

Mettle doesn't work that way. The Pious Templar even has it right in the description.
Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability..
The saving throw for Holy Word and its like is "none or will negates", with the text explaining that the will save only applies to the banishment portion of the spell.

There are some ways to get a save against these effects. Divine Denial (EoE) lets you make saves against divine no-save spells. It requires Iron Will, but you can get that from the Otyugh Hole cheaply.

If you have the money to spend you should also get Spellblade weapons (hidden weapons from CSc are good) keyed to other spells. Mummify is a big one, since it's one of the fort-save-or-die spells with no death descriptor Flickerdart mentioned, and all the big casters get it as a 6th level spell.

The other universal defense item that everyone should get is a wand of Wings of Cover in a wand chamber. Getting a reliable 20 UMD check isn't that hard, and it blocks a lot of things that are hard to defend against otherwise.

[Uncle Pine]

You have a spellblade keyed to Wish. Why not one keyed to Miracle and another one to Reality Revision (or simply one keyed to the three of them)?

[Jowgen]

The saving throw for Holy Word and its like is "none or will negates", with the text explaining that the will save only applies to the banishment portion of the spell.

There are some ways to get a save against these effects. Divine Denial (EoE) lets you make saves against divine no-save spells. It requires Iron Will, but you can get that from the Otyugh Hole cheaply.

I respectfully disagree. Neither the Pious templar description nor the general description for Mettle given in the Rules Compendium use an exclusive wording, with pious templar having an "or similar entries" clause while the RC uses "such as". One could argue whether "none or will negates" is similar or not, but I don't think that Holy Word and co used against an extraplanar creature do not qualify as "magical effects that are reduced in efficacy when the subject makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw", which is the real hard qualifier for when it applies.

In my view, Mettle doesn't care that the save is against a different aspect of the same effect. If a save negates part of the spell, the spell as a whole is reduced in efficacy, so Mettle should negate it. A DM can obviously rule otherwise, but I think my reading of the RAW stands up to scrutiny here.


If you have the money to spend you should also get Spellblade weapons (hidden weapons from CSc are good) keyed to other spells. Mummify is a big one, since it's one of the fort-save-or-die spells with no death descriptor Flickerdart mentioned, and all the big casters get it as a 6th level spell.

Got one for wish, shall add mummify to the list (am also considering implosion).



The other universal defense item that everyone should get is a wand of Wings of Cover in a wand chamber. Getting a reliable 20 UMD check isn't that hard, and it blocks a lot of things that are hard to defend against otherwise.

Might do, although in general I really prefer to have that immediate action ready for Delay Death in case things get real mean.


EDIT:

You have a spellblade keyed to Wish. Why not one keyed to Miracle and another one to Reality Revision (or simply one keyed to the three of them)?

I don't know why, but Miracle doesn't strike me as dangerous as wish. Maybe it's because Wish as a SLA is way more common? Either way don't have Psionics, so no need for Reality Revision.

[dspeyer]

Is there anything to stop a sufficiently large creature from picking this character up and walking away? A Ring of Freedom of Movement seems like a worthwhile investment, at least if you've got a finger free. It works on Solid Fog, too.

Forcecage could also be a problem. Maybe Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt?

[Jowgen]

Is there anything to stop a sufficiently large creature from picking this character up and walking away? A Ring of Freedom of Movement seems like a worthwhile investment, at least if you've got a finger free. It works on Solid Fog, too.

Forcecage could also be a problem. Maybe Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt?

Shadow Walk is the counter in both cases, although that itself can be countered by gust-of-winding the Vapor Bottle Fog and using some sort of magical light effect, and using it more than 1/2 turns is a quick ticket to 0 Con, but still. In the case of big things picking one up, it's not as ideal as freedom of movement, but it's a better pick for things like swallow whole. Solid Fog is a gas-based effect and thus countered by Necklace of Adaptation.

In case of Forcecage, Shadow Walk is as good a counter as any imo.

[GilesTheCleric]

Some types of damage can't be healed normally, such as desiccation and vile damage. Do you have a plan for those?

[Jowgen]

Some types of damage can't be healed normally, such as desiccation and vile damage. Do you have a plan for those?

Again, very specific stuff. Vile damage is an interesting one. Is there any material on it outside of the BoVD? If not, as far as I recall, effects that deal vile damage do so in very low amounts. For example, it would take an ungodly ammount of hits with a vile weapon to down someone with it. I really don't see a way around that other than carrying a scroll of Hallow around or similar to be able to heal it, and I really doubt it would be worth the investment either case... :smallfrown:

With dessication... isn't it just the Lord of Tides PrC that deal hard-to-heal Desiccation damage?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Again, very specific stuff. Vile damage is an interesting one. Is there any material on it outside of the BoVD? If not, as far as I recall, effects that deal vile damage do so in very low amounts. For example, it would take an ungodly ammount of hits with a vile weapon to down someone with it. I really don't see a way around that other than carrying a scroll of Hallow around or similar to be able to heal it, and I really doubt it would be worth the investment either case... :smallfrown:

With dessication... isn't it just the Lord of Tides PrC that deal hard-to-heal Desiccation damage?

Dessication damage can generally be healed normally.
The one that could get problematic is dehydration, which is basically fatigue and damage from hot weather that needs a Heal or Hydrate spell to heal.

You can easily get immunity to both with the Breath of the Waves graft from Magic of Eberron. It's pretty cheap and unless you already want other grafts from the same book you shouldn't have any problems.

[ben-zayb]

Fell Drain: I've heard arguments before on how this is neither necromancy nor an energy drain effect
Searing Spell
Dispels

[Spore]

Ignore my comment if I am wrong but what if people attack your necklace and/or mantle? Dying in a fireball just because someone sliced up your mantle hardly seems epic.

[Jowgen]

Ignore my comment if I am wrong but what if people attack your necklace and/or mantle? Dying in a fireball just because someone sliced up your mantle hardly seems epic.

You're not entirely wrong, and thus won't be ignored. A sunder against the necklace of adaptation is indeed a possibility. In fact, I don't think I thought to take any anti-sunder measures with any of the stuff. I should probably look into it.

Mantle of the Fiery spirit is an 8th level druid spell that instantaneously grants the fire subtype, and thus fire immunity. The gp cost I listed is for a single casting of it.

[Beheld]

I would be more concerned about your 95% chance of being banished than whether or not you can try to make a will save against Blasphemy when it is cast at CL 5 or so above your HD.

What is your HP pool/Level, because if you are at the point where Power Word Stun is in play, well you can get Power word stunned. Also consider Maze, not sure how that usually works, but maybe shadow jaunts can get you out of that.

But for the most part it looks like you have made a great Monk, and you will be totally invulnerable while people kill your allies and ignore you.

[Flickerdart]

You're not entirely wrong, and thus won't be ignored. A sunder against the necklace of adaptation is indeed a possibility. In fact, I don't think I thought to take any anti-sunder measures with any of the stuff. I should probably look into it.
The most surefire way is to pay extra to make everything slotless and have it surgically implanted inside your body.

[Beheld]

The most surefire way is to pay extra to make everything slotless and have it surgically implanted inside your body.

You can also just wear the necklace under your armor, thus depriving them of line of effect and the ability to sunder. Do the same with rings under gauntlets, circlets under helmets, anklets under boots, ect.

[Belzyk]

You mentioned saint. If I'm not mistaken sait required VoP if so nearly your entire list is busted

[torrasque666]

You mentioned saint. If I'm not mistaken sait required VoP if so nearly your entire list is busted
Nope. Just three exalted feats.

[Belzyk]

Nope. Just three exalted feats.

Ahh thank you for the correction

[Jowgen]

I would be more concerned about your 95% chance of being banished than whether or not you can try to make a will save against Blasphemy when it is cast at CL 5 or so above your HD.

95% chance of banishment?


What is your HP pool/Level, because if you are at the point where Power Word Stun is in play, well you can get Power word stunned. Also consider Maze, not sure how that usually works, but maybe shadow jaunts can get you out of that.

Power Word Stun & co are all Mind-affecting, so that's covered. Maze is... weird. Not much concerned with it though.


But for the most part it looks like you have made a great Monk...

Words can hurt you know... :smallfrown:


You can also just wear the necklace under your armor, thus depriving them of line of effect and the ability to sunder. Do the same with rings under gauntlets, circlets under helmets, anklets under boots, ect.

That seems like a workable solution for most things. In fact, I'll just get myself one of these and wear it over everything. :smallbiggrin:

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/polls/861000/861721_1319306317920_full.jpg

[Flickerdart]

You can also just wear the necklace under your armor, thus depriving them of line of effect and the ability to sunder. Do the same with rings under gauntlets, circlets under helmets, anklets under boots, ect.
It's good, but not perfect - you still run the risk of items being affected if you nat 1 a save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafteraSavingTh row).

[Beheld]

95% chance of banishment?

Banishment DC goes up +2 for each item representing something your character hates, fears, or otherwise opposes. So just throwing 600 charms of every single god onto a necklace you pull out and use as a focus immediately pushes the DC to so high you will never make it. Which is why threatening extraplanar creatures after a certain level need to be able to planeshift or avoid having to make the save in the first place.


It's good, but not perfect - you still run the risk of items being affected if you nat 1 a save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#itemsSurvivingafteraSavingTh row).

He's already immune to Fire, Acid, Electricity and Cold. Not impossible but again, way more likely to fail a fort save or wail a will save or be Ray of Stunned or be Mazed, or just be punched to death by a closet troll than he is to roll a 1 on a reflex save against electricity or sonic and get an item blown up.

[Flickerdart]

Hey, those closet trolls are a menace. A menace!