Ninja vs ninja (vs ninja vs ninja...)

[Waazraath]

5e has the ninja in the can in the form of the way of shadow monk. It's cool, has great abilities like invisibity and teleport at will in darkness, some fitting spells and a good lvl 17 reaction attack. Because monk has good lvl 17 and 18 abilities, the logical multi-class is 2, max 3 levels.

But. I was wondering if it wasn't possible to make an even better ninja with heavy multiclassing? My try: way of shadow monk 6, great old one chain warlock 3, rogue assassin 3, fighter battle master 4, way of shadow monk +4. Chosen maneuvers could be parry, precision attack and trip attack. Invocations: mask of many faces and devil's sight. Spells: mirror image, armor of agathys, darkness and hex.

con's:
- miss out on 2 ASI's
- miss out on strong defensive monk options (empty body, diamond soul)
- don't get 'opportunist', monk 17 reaction attack
- loose 10 ki
- no tongue of moon and sun
- cha 13 needed, bit MAD

pro's:
- much higher damage (supriority dice, sneak attack, assassinate, hex, poison)
- reaction attack through maneuver, other maneuvers
- skill / tool monster (expertise, extra skill and thieves tools from rogue, 1 type artisans tools, disguise kit, poisoners kist
- disguise self at will
- (invisible) special familiar
- telepathy
- strong defensive spells (mirror image and armor of agathys), few extra hp from fighter.

Looking at all this, I think the multiclass variant more then compensates. Telepaty is good compensation for tongue of moon and sun, and is available sooner (lvl 7 instead of 13). Parry maneuver fills in for opportunist, and is available sooner. The 10 ki are a shame, but there are less abilities to spend ki on, and a warlock spell like darkness saves ki spend on darkness. The main pain is imo in the few ASI's and the defensive monk options.

But what you get instead of that! Much more damage. Invisible familiar, to scout (among others). Infiltration / social possiblities with diguise self at will. Strong defensive spells. one skill, expertise in two skills, and three tools. The darkness / devil's sight combo. I imagine a character like this easily able to scout in front of a party, detect enemies, sneak up to 60 feat (with expertise in stealth), surprise round with bonus action teleport for big damage (maneuver + sneak attack + assasinate two attacks with advantage)... and maybe follow up with 4 attacks with advantage if you win initiative (possible with max dex).

My opinion: definitely worth it, especially in games where you roll ability scores and get lucky, but also in a standard point buy game.

My question to you folks: what do you think? Does the monk/fighter/rogue/warlock make a better ninja then the shadow monk 20? Or is a more 'compromise build' better, like shadow monk 17 / rogue assassin 3, or shadow monk 17 / chain warlock 3, or shadow monk 17 / battle master 3?

[BladeWing81]

My question to you folks: what do you think? Does the monk/fighter/rogue/warlock make a better ninja then the shadow monk 20? Or is a more 'compromise build' better, like shadow monk 17 / rogue assassin 3, or shadow monk 17 / chain warlock 3, or shadow monk 17 / battle master 3?

I think you can get better results with shadow monk 17/assassin rogue 3, if you want to add alert. you will always get high initiative for advantage on your first flurry of blows attack on at least two or more enemies and shadow monk will always get you an assassinate auto crit for 2d10 + 4d6 on the first attack with only a dagger all of the good stuff from the monk lvl 17, cunning action, expertise and 2d6 from sneak attack from lvl 3 rogue. less damage but way more survivability.

[Tanarii]

When I think of a Ninja, the first thing I think of is the Assassin sub-class. At least through the Class Feature that allows you to create false identities. That's, like, the core of what a Ninja is to me.

The Shadow Monk doesn't feel ninja at all. in fact, it doesn't feel much of anything. Like they felt they needed to tack on a third path because after they covered the basics (Martial Artists and Tattooed Monks), pulled some obscure previous edition splat out to cover the theme, and couldn't come up with any decent abilities to support it. I always wondered what it was supposed to be.But Ninja? No way. Doesn't fit at all.

IMO you'd be best creating a Ninja by going Rogue Assassin. If you wanted a dash of 'mystical' powers, MC Sorcerer for 1-6 levels. Or Warlock for a 'Demon' Ninja. You need the Cha anyway for Deception, so might as well get some use out of it.

[djreynolds]

Do you want mundane or magical? Cunning action is great when paired with monk, to save ki points. But you get one bonus action sadly. Its a cool build either way. I actually like both builds. But battlemaster 11/ monk 6/ rogue 3 could work as well.

[Waazraath]

Thanks for the reactions!

@BladeWing81 - I agree with your assessment, that monk 17 / assassin 3 gives a stronger defense and a weaker offense... (mirror image / armor of agathys don't compensate for the defensive monk stuff); skills are about the same, but the extra options of the invisible familiar, disguise self at will, and darkness/devil's sight combo make me favour the multiclass option.

Tanarii - we seem to feel different about the fluff...not to weird, there is so much 'ninja' in popular culture, there are plenty of diffferent takes on it. Just curious: what do you think from an optimization perspective, not the fluff?

djreynolds - agreed, battlemaster 11/ monk 6/ rogue 3 would be a good option as well, a more 'warrior approach' without the supernatural stuff warlock gives.

[Hawkstar]

When I think of a Ninja, the first thing I think of is the Assassin sub-class. At least through the Class Feature that allows you to create false identities. That's, like, the core of what a Ninja is to me.

The Shadow Monk doesn't feel ninja at all. in fact, it doesn't feel much of anything. Like they felt they needed to tack on a third path because after they covered the basics (Martial Artists and Tattooed Monks), pulled some obscure previous edition splat out to cover the theme, and couldn't come up with any decent abilities to support it. I always wondered what it was supposed to be.But Ninja? No way. Doesn't fit at all.

IMO you'd be best creating a Ninja by going Rogue Assassin. If you wanted a dash of 'mystical' powers, MC Sorcerer for 1-6 levels. Or Warlock for a 'Demon' Ninja. You need the Cha anyway for Deception, so might as well get some use out of it.

Assassin is Historical Ninja.
Shadow Monk is Hollywood Ninja.

[djreynolds]

I like shadow monk, that teleport is like misty step every round when near shadows which seem abundant in dungeons.
I like arcane trickster more than the other rogue archetypes. The spells are great for infiltration and you're still pumping your sneak attack, that's my key. Who needs supreme sneak when you can cast invisibility? Get stuck in combat, blur and mirror image are awesome and can be used together. Grab shield and misty step, and you can hang in combat when you fail at the assassination attempt. As for the melee pump, action surge is nice but so is ranger.

6 shadow monk/ 9 arcane trickster/ 3hunter and 2 what ever you want? Paladin of vengeance gives some nice spells for infiltration too.

[T.G. Oskar]

The Shadow Monk doesn't feel ninja at all. in fact, it doesn't feel much of anything. Like they felt they needed to tack on a third path because after they covered the basics (Martial Artists and Tattooed Monks), pulled some obscure previous edition splat out to cover the theme, and couldn't come up with any decent abilities to support it. I always wondered what it was supposed to be.But Ninja? No way. Doesn't fit at all.

I feel the Way of the Shadow fits the Shadowdancer concept a bit better. Shadowdancers had more impressive abilities (Shadow Jump and Summon Shadow), but the abilities gained by the Way of the Shadow are close enough. They also fit the Underdark theme, alongside the Dark Stalker Ranger, the Shadow Sorcerer and the Undying Light Monk.

Also - I don't feel the Way of the Elements is similar to the Tattooed Monk (Ise Zumi/Kikage Zumi). It has a similar feel because it's a bunch of magic-like abilities, but the Way of the Elements is tied to...well, the elements. The Tattooed Monk is tied to creatures and concepts more often than not - the Butterfly, the Chrysanthemum, the Full Moon, the Sun. I can see the Way of the Tattooed Monk in a future supplement (most likely with the Way of the Sohei, the Blade Dancer for the Bard or Fighter, the Yakuza for the Rogue and maybe one or two more subclasses), using the same concept as the Way of the Elements but with the original tattoos' abilities instead. Perhaps the Way of the Elements is the subclass that makes more sense to refluff as the Tattooed Monk, but the latter is quite distinct to be collapsed into the former.

[Tanarii]

Who needs supreme sneak when you can cast invisibility? someone that wants advantage on Stealth checks?

Invisibility just lets you make a hide check at any time. It doesn't provide a bonus to your check.


Assassin is Historical Ninja.
Shadow Monk is Hollywood Ninja.
Clearly I haven't watched enough Hollywood ninja movies. Or rather, I watched too much ... saw part of American Ninja once, turned it off in disgust, and stayed away from the genre. :p

But I went back and read the actual, like, PHB. And sure enough it not only opens the Monk section with fluff about a halfling that's pretty clearly ninja-y. But also specifically calls out that Way of the Shadow Monks are supposed to cover the 'ninja' and 'shadowdancer' archetypes.

Well color me seriously disappointed. I was waiting for a shadowdancer to come out for the Rogue class. :(

[Fwiffo86]

5e has the ninja in the can in the form of the way of shadow monk. It's cool, has great abilities like invisibity and teleport at will in darkness, some fitting spells and a good lvl 17 reaction attack. Because monk has good lvl 17 and 18 abilities, the logical multi-class is 2, max 3 levels.

But. I was wondering if it wasn't possible to make an even better ninja with heavy multiclassing? My try: way of shadow monk 6, great old one chain warlock 3, rogue assassin 3, fighter battle master 4, way of shadow monk +4. Chosen maneuvers could be parry, precision attack and trip attack. Invocations: mask of many faces and devil's sight. Spells: mirror image, armor of agathys, darkness and hex.

con's:
- miss out on 2 ASI's
- miss out on strong defensive monk options (empty body, diamond soul)
- don't get 'opportunist', monk 17 reaction attack
- loose 10 ki
- no tongue of moon and sun
- cha 13 needed, bit MAD

pro's:
- much higher damage (supriority dice, sneak attack, assassinate, hex, poison)
- reaction attack through maneuver, other maneuvers
- skill / tool monster (expertise, extra skill and thieves tools from rogue, 1 type artisans tools, disguise kit, poisoners kist
- disguise self at will
- (invisible) special familiar
- telepathy
- strong defensive spells (mirror image and armor of agathys), few extra hp from fighter.

Looking at all this, I think the multiclass variant more then compensates. Telepaty is good compensation for tongue of moon and sun, and is available sooner (lvl 7 instead of 13). Parry maneuver fills in for opportunist, and is available sooner. The 10 ki are a shame, but there are less abilities to spend ki on, and a warlock spell like darkness saves ki spend on darkness. The main pain is imo in the few ASI's and the defensive monk options.

But what you get instead of that! Much more damage. Invisible familiar, to scout (among others). Infiltration / social possiblities with diguise self at will. Strong defensive spells. one skill, expertise in two skills, and three tools. The darkness / devil's sight combo. I imagine a character like this easily able to scout in front of a party, detect enemies, sneak up to 60 feat (with expertise in stealth), surprise round with bonus action teleport for big damage (maneuver + sneak attack + assasinate two attacks with advantage)... and maybe follow up with 4 attacks with advantage if you win initiative (possible with max dex).

My opinion: definitely worth it, especially in games where you roll ability scores and get lucky, but also in a standard point buy game.

My question to you folks: what do you think? Does the monk/fighter/rogue/warlock make a better ninja then the shadow monk 20? Or is a more 'compromise build' better, like shadow monk 17 / rogue assassin 3, or shadow monk 17 / chain warlock 3, or shadow monk 17 / battle master 3?

I am more inclined to ask what you think a ninja should be first.

Traditional Ninja (supposedly irl): Stealth, deception, assassination. Wouldn't stand a chance in a straight up fight and they knew it. Assassination through poisoning, ambush, sleep. None of which fall into combat expert. (I consider this the actual ninja personally) : Build suggestions - Rogue (Assassin) + Monk (shadow)

Anime Ninja: Stealth, Supreme combat expertise, magic, untouchable defenses, etc. Can go toe to toe with anything anywhere anywhen. (this version seems to me to attract power game players, fun certainly, but less so for the rest of the party I would think). : Build suggestions - Warrior (BM) + Monk (shadow) + Warlock (blade pact for sneaking in weapons and to get the magic and possibly invis in dim light invocation.)

[Corran]

I have been struggling recently with a ninja build myself. Glad to see there is a thread dealing with a ninja concept. After reading some of the above posts, I am not sure if the term ninja is the correct one for what I have in mind, but here goes nothing!

So.... my ninja would be a follows:
She would definitely have at least 3 levels in rogue (assassin). That way she gets sneak attack (2d6) (extra dice are always good to have for surprise autocrits), expertise (which can push a stealth score from just good to excellent, deception would be my other choice for social stealth, but more on that later), thieves' cant (which is a very flavourful addition), cunning action which is simply amazing (and performs wonders combined with the darkness combo, or greater invisibility), assassinate which is a must-have feature imo, and proficiency in thieve's tools and the poisoner's and disguise kits.
I would also add 3 levels in warlock (pact of the blade), mainly for 3 reasons: Firstly, mask of many faces invocation. That covers a huge part of your social stealth. Played well, and combined with a good deception score (another reason to use expertise on deception), and the NPCs you interact with will never even get a chance to roll to see through your guise. It can also be used for escape and infiltration purposes (the actor feat can help here, and alter self is simply better for infiltration purposes and does not require a feat to work perfectly, but with a little bit of smart play you can get away with just a simple disguise self). The fact that you can do it at will is simply too useful to ignore, and it can combine well with the cantrip friends. Secondly, the darkness-devil's sight combo, combined with cunning action (hide) can let you take on multiple weak opponents without even being scratched, and it is a nice dirty little trick to have in your backpocket that suits the theme of a ninja running on some dark magic juice. Thirdly, pact of the blade lets you smuggle a weapon with you anywhere you go. That can be a big deal under the right circumstances, and it is not to be underestimated. It is the perfect complement to your social stealth. You also get some other nice things, like telepathy (awakened mind) to help you direct your allies' attack when fighting inside magical darkness without giving away your position, and some very useful spells to select from that can complement your build according to what you feel would be of more use (hellish rebuke, charm person, armor of agathys, hex, invisibility, spider climb, misty step, etc) and some cantrips (friends, minor illusion, ghost sound, GFB, BB, EB, etc...).

So, I have my backbone of the build I want, which is rogue3(assassin)/warlock3(pact of the blade). Where do I go now? How do I advance? Do I take some fighter levels for extra attacks and maneuvres? Do I stick with those classes and advance on the rogue or the warlock, for some extra sneak attack damage or some better magic juice?Do I perhaps take some levels in ranger? Well..... I guess it will have to do with personal perferences. Personal preferences of some classes over others, and ofc personal preferences of fighting style. Do you want your ninja to wield a bow or a crossbow? Or do you want him to do his dirty work with a poisoned dagger? Or using a ridiculously big sword? Also, how much would you want your ninja to rely on magic (by which I dont necessarily mean fireballs and other big boom stuff)?
Personally, I prefer my ninja to do her dirty work from up close, so melee is for me. And I also prefer dexterity to strength, so daggers, shortswords, scimitars and rapiers is what I look at. I also would like my ninja to have some magic juice, not only for just the benefits that certain spells would have on a ninja build, but also for style points, as magic would add a more mystical sense to that character. So booming blade and greenflame blade could do the trick, since there are no heavy finesse weapons to benefit from the -5/+10 feats. Sometimes, an image is all the inspiration you need, so here is what I am looking at.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/bgtscc/images/1/1f/Shadowdancer.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130723195607

As classes go, I was always a little biased towards the paladin, and a little biased against the monk (although I can see that a shadow monk could do many things for a ninja build).
So I would look to bring 2 paladin levels in play. Fighting style and divine smite is what will be of help to us. Especially divine smite. Given enough spell slots it can become a consistent source of damage. Granted, the str requirement to mc to paladin is a bit mad, but I am a sucker for paladins so that is entirely on me.

Given that I will rely mostly on cantrips like BB and GFB for my attacks (mainly due to the lack of heavy finesse weapons / but also, because I prefer a scimitar to a finesse greatsword for the style of that build), I think I will skip on trying to find a way to gain extra attacks, as I will mostly rely on the cantrip damage progression. So the only thing that I need to do now, after I included divine smite, is to create enough spell slots for this character. Sorcerer is what I would go with, as not only does it rely on charisma (which is something I need for many stuff so far), but also it provides me with all sorts of nice little perks. Like quickened and twinned spell metamagic. I just upgraded my surprise rounds and added something significant to my arsenal for normal encounters (twinned BB, disengage and move away is another nice little trick I can use). Also, a sorcerer dip will help me pick up all those very useful 2nd level spells I missed because of the warlock's limited selection, thus creating a spell list full of much needed spells that add a lot to my ninja abilities (in combat and out of combat).

Hence, I am looking at a rogue3(assassin)/ warlock3(pact of the blade)/ paladin2/ sorcerer12.
Perhaps the shadow sorcerer could give me enough tricks to consider dropping warlock entirely (mask of many faces could be easily be replaced by alter self and numerous spell slots), perhaps only losing on the ability to sneak in a weapon anywhere. But I would probably trade that in favour of 3 extra sorcerer levels. Need to wait and see what the shadow sorcerer will bring on the table though, after it is officially confirmed.

Haven't looked at this build extensively, so maybe there are far better ways to do what I did here. But that's my approach to a ninja build so far, so there......

[Degwerks]

I too have been entertaining a sinister assassin like ninja character. I think the new underdark ranger path would fit nicely in a build with assassin-rogue.

What I want in the build is a supernova round, the ability to attack from stealth or surprise, and trick-options to help with the above or to increase my chances of getting away if I bit off more than I can chew. I'd also love to have a few warlock levels for devils sight as well.

[Markoff Chainey]

I dislike more than 1 other MC for several reasons, but most importantly, if you do not start at lvl 20, it will take you like 18 levels to actually play the character you imagined..

For the Ninja, as others mentioned, it depends heavily on what do you want your char to do?

I personally prefer Shadow Monk 6 / Assassin 14 - because up to lvl 5 the Monk has great offence and then his focus switches more to defence and on lvl 6 he gets his BOFF signature ability, so this is a must. And from there onwards go Assassin and pick up alert as soon as possible - this allows for the lvl 14 rouge capstone at lvl 20 and gives you almost full sneak attack damage.

This guy can teleport in, says "hello" and attacks twice for a max chance to deliver sneak attack damage and then uses his bonus action - martial arts to stun the target.

You can also add magic initiate feat for lvl 1 - find familiar, booming blade and shillelaqh for some extra fun...

Something like this would be my build.

[Fwiffo86]

I like:

Rogue (burglar) 4, Warlock 6.

Expertise in stealth and Perception, bonus action item use, Sneak attack. Eldritch blast (flavored as shuriken/kurenai), Devils sight, the invocation that allows you to turn invisible in dim light, blade pact (weapon smuggling, and change weapon on the fly without carrying a bunch, travel light!), Fey pact for sleep and Misty step on hit (log technique!).

Some spell selections: Spider climb (cling to the ceiling), Gaseous form (ninja Insubstantial!), Darkness (devil eyes hide combo), etc.

Test runs have this level 10 character taking on 8 creatures at once with minimal damage.

[BladeWing81]

I dislike more than 1 other MC for several reasons, but most importantly, if you do not start at lvl 20, it will take you like 18 levels to actually play the character you imagined..

For the Ninja, as others mentioned, it depends heavily on what do you want your char to do?

I personally prefer Shadow Monk 6 / Assassin 14 - because up to lvl 5 the Monk has great offence and then his focus switches more to defence and on lvl 6 he gets his BOFF signature ability, so this is a must. And from there onwards go Assassin and pick up alert as soon as possible - this allows for the lvl 14 rouge capstone at lvl 20 and gives you almost full sneak attack damage.

This guy can teleport in, says "hello" and attacks twice for a max chance to deliver sneak attack damage and then uses his bonus action - martial arts to stun the target.

You can also add magic initiate feat for lvl 1 - find familiar, booming blade and shillelaqh for some extra fun...

Something like this would be my build.
in your case I would take monk 7/assassin 13 for Monks evasion.

[Waazraath]

Thanks all for the builds and comments! I think I agree with the remarks about historical / anime versions of the ninja. As for the remark Markoff Chainey makes, on the drawback of too much multiclass ("if you do not start at lvl 20, it will take you like 18 levels to actually play the character you imagined"): I agree this is a risk in general, but I don't think it flies in this specific occasion. Let's compare the multiclass version with a single class version (shadow monk 20).

Up to level 6, they are exactly the same. At level 7, the full monk gets evasion and +1 ki, while the multiclass gets warlock 1 (telepathy, hex, armor of agathys); neither too interesting for the archetype. At level 7, monk 8 gets an ASI and +1 ki, while the multiclass variant gets devil's sight (powerfull abiltiy that increases the characters 'fight and see in darkness') and disguise self at will (which highly increases the ability to infiltrate / disguise); at level 9, the monk gets improved unarmored movement (higly flavourable!) and +1 ki, while the warlock gets an invisible familiar (scouting!) and the spells mirror image, darkness.

Given the roll of the ninja (combat, scouting, some supernatural abilities for a 'darkness' themed warior) the multi class option really isn't laggin behind. Nor will it at later levels, when at 10 it gets it's first level rogue, can get expertise in perseption and stealth and +1d6 sneak attack and an extra skill, compared with immunity to disease and poison.

[djreynolds]

I've never seen shadow monk as a ninja, but really the shadow dancer prestige class.

Monk and rogue both get evasion at 7th level. That's a big overlap, its okay, plenty of people out there with paladin 12/ battlemaster 8.

But they key is to take rogue to 6 or monk to 6. Then press onwards. Any rogue after 6 is there for his/her sneak attack damage which is huge. And for scouting once you reach 6 rogue you will have grab 4 expertise skills. And once you reach monk you will have 2 attacks and your fists count as magic weapons for damage reduction.

So you could go rogue 6/ monk 7-8 and warlock 6-7. But you have 3 abilities to try to max out, and perhaps feats. And assassinate sounds cool, but you need some more pop, something more to crit

Is evasion that important to your build? Are unarmed strikes that important? You do want a sword? Ninjato?


7 Assassin seems appropriate for ninja, but I think sneak attack is a must.
13 Paladin of vengeance gets some good stuff, and while a 13 in str seems expensive it isn't. They have plenty of movement spells.


This build can land a big hit and any variation is awesome, but 13 paladin OoV gets you the ability to smite for 5d8 and dimension door. This build starts from level 1 rogue to assassin 3, then paladin to 6 for two attacks. But this guy can start assassinating at level 6 the hard way at first with just stealth and then starts to add magic.

[Corran]

7 Assassin seems appropriate for ninja, but I think sneak attack is a must.
13 Paladin of vengeance gets some good stuff, and while a 13 in str seems expensive it isn't. They have plenty of movement spells.


This build can land a big hit and any variation is awesome, but 13 paladin OoV gets you the ability to smite for 5d8 and dimension door. This build starts from level 1 rogue to assassin 3, then paladin to 6 for two attacks. But this guy can start assassinating at level 6 the hard way at first with just stealth and then starts to add magic.
I know a few things about this build as I ve played it. The main negative is that it lacks during normal encounters for a significant period of the game. Until you hit level 8 (paladin 5) you have no extra attack, which is important. Also, such a build will rely on hunter' mark for improving its dpr (better than haste until improved divine smite comes into play, assuming TWF for assassinate), so until level 9 (aura of protection) and unless you've taken resilient(con) dont expect to do much during normal encounters (as you will probably spend your bonus action to disengage rather than for attacking with the off-hand). 13 str along with the necessity to get resilient(con), along with multiclassing, leaves you with ability scores that are lacking, and with very few feats/ASIs which you get later in the game as well. Good thing is that this build is not heavy feat dependent (or a bad thing, according to how you look at it), and +2 dex seems to be the best choice. Still, with human (variant) you will have dex 20 at level 10 the earliest, or level 14 if not human variant. I've found that cantrip damage progression can really help with multiclass builds, if ofc you can find the right cantrip. Also, the metamagic options from sorcerer can replace the extra and the off hand attack for assassination purposes just fine. Now think what happens to this build if you replace 11 paladin levels with 11 levels of sorcerer (so you retain 2 levels in paladin). Strictly from a mechanical point of view it is better in term of staying relevant throughout the game, and even offers a better capstone to improved divine smite, 4th level paladin spells (and hence dimension door).