Movies Gandalf vs. Dumbledore [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

JeenLeen

2015-11-12, 05:09 PM

I would vote on Gandalf is importance or accomplishments are the criteria.

For overall power via something like a duel, I'm inclined to think it'd be a stalemate. In Harry Potter, can some wizards take a curse and keep moving, or at least partially resist the powers? I think I've seen that or read about it. If so, I think Gandalf could 'soak' things pretty well, given his nature, and once he gets in close range he could defeat Dumbledore with melee. Dumbledore has teleportation magic, though, so it'd be hard for Gandalf to finish him off.*
If Gandalf can't soak curses, then Dumbledore would probably win due to the number of 'save or KO' spells he has at his disposal.

*again, assuming Gandalf stays in mortal power limitations.

The Glyphstone

2015-11-12, 05:11 PM

I'm amused that this has become a contest of who is the worst wizard, rather than the best.

AvatarVecna

2015-11-12, 05:14 PM

I'm amused that this has become a contest of who is the worst wizard, rather than the best.

Being "the best" is the same as being "the least bad", but it could be just an acknowledgement that neither entry qualifies as a good wizard, and therefore isn't admissible as a competitor for the title.

Flickerdart

2015-11-12, 05:19 PM

Being "the best" is the same as being "the least bad"
There is an old joke:

A Soviet diplomat and an American diplomat meet in an Austrian pub, and strike up an argument - which country has the best athletes? They decide to settle things with a footrace, pitting the best runner from each country against the other. The next day, Moscow newspapers declare - the American finishes second last, while the Russian triumphantly wins silver.

AvatarVecna

2015-11-12, 05:29 PM

There is an old joke:

A Soviet diplomat and an American diplomat meet in an Austrian pub, and strike up an argument - which country has the best athletes? They decide to settle things with a footrace, pitting the best runner from each country against the other. The next day, Moscow newspapers declare - the American finishes second last, while the Russian triumphantly wins silver.

Ah, the old "moving the goalposts" argument tactic. Always works so well...and this is a wonderful example of perception having an effect on reality despite not being realistic, which is a trope I love to hate.

Broken Crown

2015-11-12, 05:47 PM

As people have pointed out, there are so many different criteria for "better wizard" that it's hard to judge one way or the other.

Gandalf has better adversaries, though. Voldemort at the peak of his power seems to have been maybe a match for Saruman at his most pathetic, while the Harry Potter 'verse simply has no equivalent to Sauron.

Flickerdart

2015-11-12, 05:50 PM

Gandalf has better adversaries, though. Voldemort at the peak of his power seems to have been maybe a match for Saruman at his most pathetic, while the Harry Potter 'verse simply has no equivalent to Sauron.

Gandalf doesn't ever fight Sauron directly, though. Dumbledore at least wins against Voldemort in the Ministry.

AvatarVecna

2015-11-12, 05:55 PM

Gandalf doesn't ever fight Sauron directly, though. Dumbledore at least wins against Voldemort in the Ministry.

Not to mention the duel between him and magic!Hitler (who's name I can't recall ATM) back during the end of WW2 wizard-side. Against Voldy, Dumbledore was lacking the power to really beat him but more than made up for it in skill; the duel between him and his childhood friend, the only other person who could match Dumbledore in power and skill alike? That has to have been an epic duel.

Also, Gandalf clashed with (and got curbstomped by) Sauron in the Hobbit movie, but I don't know if that was explicitly book!canon, only implicitly book!canon (aka something hidden between the lines that Jackson emphasized), or wasn't a thing in the book.

WalkingTarget

2015-11-12, 06:01 PM

Also, Gandalf clashed with (and got curbstomped by) Sauron in the Hobbit movie, but I don't know if that was explicitly book!canon, only implicitly book!canon (aka something hidden between the lines that Jackson emphasized), or wasn't a thing in the book.

Gandalf losing a fight and being captured is not a thing from the book. Sauron was confronted by the White Council and driven off (specifically noting the "devices of Saruman" as being efficacious), but it's also noted that withdrawing from Mirkwood and returning to Mordor was a long-planned move on Sauron's part as well. I think of it more like a "Meh. Now's as good a time as any" on Sauron's part when the good guys roll up to his doorstep at that time.

Durkoala

2015-11-12, 06:33 PM

I don't know who would win, but it would end with them getting married IN IRELAND (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/05/26/jk-rowling-ireland-have-set-an-example-to-the-world-with-marriage-vote/)!

I would vote on Gandalf is importance or accomplishments are the criteria.

For overall power via something like a duel, I'm inclined to think it'd be a stalemate. In Harry Potter, can some wizards take a curse and keep moving, or at least partially resist the powers? I think I've seen that or read about it. If so, I think Gandalf could 'soak' things pretty well, given his nature, and once he gets in close range he could defeat Dumbledore with melee. Dumbledore has teleportation magic, though, so it'd be hard for Gandalf to finish him off.*
If Gandalf can't soak curses, then Dumbledore would probably win due to the number of 'save or KO' spells he has at his disposal.

*again, assuming Gandalf stays in mortal power limitations.

The only resistible effects that I can think of off the top of my head are the mind-controlling Imperius Curse (which Dumbledore never uses) and mind reading (which he can, so that's something else Gandalf has to contend with). Anything else comes down to dodge, block or hope that it's not a spell that takes you out of the fight. If you get hit, you're under the effects (such as paralysis, conjuctivitus, unconsiousness or being a sea urchin) until it wears off or the spell is removed. There's also a number of spells, usually in the Dark Arts (and so not Dumbledore's first choices) that just hurt or maim people, such as Sectumsempra or Avada Kedavra.

danzibr

2015-11-12, 07:06 PM

Dumbledore spends his time mismanaging a school. Gandalf spends his time wandering around the world and getting stoned. Both of them are terrible wizards.
This made me lol.

Broken Crown

2015-11-12, 07:37 PM

Gandalf doesn't ever fight Sauron directly, though.

Yes, that's kind of the point: If Gandalf (or anyone, really) had a chance of winning a direct fight against Sauron (without using the One Ring and being corrupted), "The Lord of the Rings" would have ended a few thousand years before it began.

Sauron can't exist in the HP!Verse, partly because the HP!Verse is ostensibly set against the background of the real world, and we would presumably have noticed a millennium-old continent-spanning dictatorship bent on conquering everything and annihilating all beauty and happiness, and partly because evil in the HP!Verse is inherently small-minded and pathetic.

But I digress.

Misery Esquire

2015-11-12, 09:13 PM

Yes, that's kind of the point: If Gandalf (or anyone, really) had a chance of winning a direct fight against Sauron (without using the One Ring and being corrupted), "The Lord of the Rings" would have ended a few thousand years before it began.

I mean, Gandalf and Sauron were the same strength when the world was created by their bosses. Sauron has lost power over time, by creating things, by having his shapeshifting body sunk to the ocean floor, and from the natural fade of the old other-worldly powers...

And Gandalf accepted the mission of being bound in the body of a human, excepting a bit of magic and no age limit, and getting the mortals of Middle Earth to fight Sauron themselves. Gandalf (or one of the other Five Wizards) could've rocked up to Mordor in full angelic form and flattened the decrepit traitor, but that's not what the Vala were after as a resolution.

ZhanStrider

2015-11-13, 01:06 AM

I mean, Gandalf and Sauron were the same strength when the world was created by their bosses. Sauron has lost power over time, by creating things, by having his shapeshifting body sunk to the ocean floor, and from the natural fade of the old other-worldly powers...

And Gandalf accepted the mission of being bound in the body of a human, excepting a bit of magic and no age limit, and getting the mortals of Middle Earth to fight Sauron themselves. Gandalf (or one of the other Five Wizards) could've rocked up to Mordor in full angelic form and flattened the decrepit traitor, but that's not what the Vala were after as a resolution.

I understand virtually no Tolkien lore, but damn does reading other people's summaries capture my imagination.

Seppl

2015-11-13, 01:09 AM

Gandalf (or one of the other Five Wizards) could've rocked up to Mordor in full angelic form and flattened the decrepit traitor, but that's not what the Vala were after as a resolution.Maybe when he came fresh out of Valinor. But it is a strong theme in Tolkien's works that all things fade and decline over time. Also, the outer form a Maiar takes can influence them if it is "worn" for a long enough time. It is unlikely that Gandalf, especially when running around as a mortal man for 2000 years, would be immune to this. For all we know, his confrontation with the Balrog is a usage of his full power. He is after all in mortal danger, not helping or endangering anyone, and nobody is even looking. Unfortunately, we only have his own vague account of the event. The collateral damage and feats of endurance he describes are impressive (maybe even enough to give Dumbledore a run for his money in a duel) but they are not enough to "simply walk into Mordor".

Later, he seems genuinely afraid to face the Witch King, not knowing who is the more powerful.

Aotrs Commander

2015-11-13, 03:22 AM

The Maia were not created all equally in power. (Even among the Istari, Gandalf wasn't the most powerful, at least not until Gandalf the White.) Tom Bombadil was, within the confines of his forest, the only Maia around in Middle-Earth that could have stood up to Sauron directly by the Third Age*. Sauron had been among most powerful Maia initially (there are contradictory statments as to whether Sauron or Eönwë was the most powerful Maia), but he was defintely more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman when all three were at their height.

*Sauron had arguably staved off any further weakening by shunting all his power into the Ring, which even when not in his possesion, still sustained him. But in doing so, it meant when the Ring was destroyed, it took the majority of his power with it, basically leaving him a powerless ghost for the rest of eternity.

zimmerwald1915

2015-11-13, 03:42 AM

Gandalf doesn't ever fight Sauron directly, though.
Depends on what you mean by "fight" and "directly." Gandalf certainly locked wills with Sauron when Frodo was on Amon Hen. Sauron was attempting to get Frodo to reveal his location, Gandalf wanted him to take off the Ring. The book describes the Voice (Gandalf) and the Eye (Sauron) each trying to drown each other out in Frodo's mind, until they cancel each other out and Frodo is able to freely take off the Ring.

The Maia were not created all equally in power. (Even among the Istari, Gandalf wasn't the most powerful, at least not until Gandalf the White.) Tom Bombadil was, within the confines of his forest, the only Maia around in Middle-Earth that could have stood up to Sauron directly by the Third Age*.
Bombadil isn't necessarily a Maia. He can't be the One, a Vala, or any other kind of living being whose kind is well-defined, which, if the only kinds of beings are those that can be well-defined, leaves only a Maia as an option. But Bombadil is supposed to be ill-defined and mysterious, and I find it extremely doubtful that any Maia existed in the world before Melkor entered it, as Bombadil claims he did.

Also, the plural is Maiar. Pet peeve.

Aotrs Commander

2015-11-13, 03:56 AM

Bombadil isn't necessarily a Maia. He can't be the One, a Vala, or any other kind of living being whose kind is well-defined, which, if the only kinds of beings are those that can be well-defined, leaves only a Maia as an option. But Bombadil is supposed to be ill-defined and mysterious, and I find it extremely doubtful that any Maia existed in the world before Melkor entered it, as Bombadil claims he did.

I'm suspect that's principally me conflating him with how Rolemaster categorised him (i.e. as a Maia) in Lords of Middle-Earth, then.

Also, the plural is Maiar. Pet peeve.

*slaps wrist*

Of course it is. (It's way too early in the morning...)

Broken Crown

2015-11-13, 04:42 AM

Bombadil isn't necessarily a Maia. He can't be the One, a Vala, or any other kind of living being whose kind is well-defined, which, if the only kinds of beings are those that can be well-defined, leaves only a Maia as an option. But Bombadil is supposed to be ill-defined and mysterious, and I find it extremely doubtful that any Maia existed in the world before Melkor entered it, as Bombadil claims he did.

I've occasionally wondered whether Tom Bombadil belongs in Middle-Earth at all, or whether he just showed up from somewhere else, liked it, and decided to stick around. In which case, he is more akin to Ungoliant than to anything else in the setting, which is a vaguely disturbing thought.

Seppl

2015-11-13, 05:41 AM

I've occasionally wondered whether Tom Bombadil belongs in Middle-Earth at all, or whether he just showed up from somewhere else, liked it, and decided to stick around. If you go all meta he is exactly that. He is a character from another story of Tolkien's.

WalkingTarget

2015-11-13, 09:22 AM

If you go all meta he is exactly that. He is a character from another story of Tolkien's.

And in that he was the "spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside". Given that Middle-earth is our earth in a mythical past, and that the Shire is supposed to be roughly corresponding to Oxford (explicitly set on the same latitude at least) you could make the argument that he's still operating in that capacity - although we don't know what kind of thing a "spirit" necessarily means here (a maia or something else unspecified that's in keeping with his status as an "enigma").

It's also worth pointing out that while Tom is the "master" within his own country and the Ring itself has no power over him (it can't tempt somebody with power if that person has no need or desire of it), it's mentioned that while he may be the last to fall, fall he would if Sauron came knocking.

Rockphed

2015-11-13, 10:21 AM

I've occasionally wondered whether Tom Bombadil belongs in Middle-Earth at all, or whether he just showed up from somewhere else, liked it, and decided to stick around. In which case, he is more akin to Ungoliant than to anything else in the setting, which is a vaguely disturbing thought.

Isn't there an essay about how bombadil is actually evil and using the war of the ring to enable spreading a forest everywhere.

WalkingTarget

2015-11-13, 10:43 AM

Isn't there an essay about how bombadil is actually evil and using the war of the ring to enable spreading a forest everywhere.

Obvious satire in its original incarnation, lots of people have reposted/disseminated it as a serious theory since then.

SaintRidley

2015-11-13, 12:02 PM

Here's the thing about the Oldest and Fatherless (http://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html?page=) one, Tom Bombadil.

Misery Esquire

2015-11-13, 07:15 PM

Maybe when he came fresh out of Valinor. But it is a strong theme in Tolkien's works that all things fade and decline over time. Also, the outer form a Maiar takes can influence them if it is "worn" for a long enough time. It is unlikely that Gandalf, especially when running around as a mortal man for 2000 years, would be immune to this.

Oh, no. Absolutely, as it stands in the books themselves Gandalf accepted the limitations and couldn't take out Sauron himself. I was specifically refuting that there was never an option to just kill him. Or put him past the Door of Night, or whatever is an acceptable removal of the Maia.

Traab

2015-11-13, 08:15 PM

Bobb

2015-11-13, 08:47 PM

I'm gonna disagree with the thrust of your argument there Traab. For starters, HP verse Dumbledore (even though he's better than most HP wizards in this regard) is much more dependent on his staff than Gandalf is on his.

Second, the LotR verse works very much on force of will and inborn strength. I feel a duel between them as a comparison should take place in a bizzaro world combination of HP and LotR verse characteristics. In such a world, Gandalf has some nice spell resistance.

Of course, if he had the foresight to bring an overachieving student's class taking device Dumbledore wins the duel hands down. :smalltongue:

danzibr

2015-11-13, 08:50 PM

WalkingTarget

2015-11-13, 10:38 PM

Since I haven't read The Silmarillion (or anything other than The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings), what kind of baddonkey stuff are Maiar capable of? We see Dumbledore in full action, but I don't really have a good feeling of just what Gandalf can do.

The Valar are often mistaken by men for gods - they are pretty explicitly the "real" faces of the Greek or Norse or other pantheons - but their actual role in the world is to be the shapers and custodians of the physical universe, not it's creators.

The Maiar are the same kind of being, only lesser in stature/power/glory/etc. The Balrogs are such beings, spirits of destructive fire who joined the Enemy, Melkor/Morgoth, before the beginning of time. Sauron was also a Maia who joined Team Evil, but after the world got started (he originally worked for the Hephaestus/Vulcan analog). Arien, a fire-spirit who was not convinced to turn has been given the duty to steer the sun in the sky. Ossë is associated with the waters around the coastlines of Middle-earth and, while he is the friend of mariners, he is also unpredictable and is as likely as not to cause storms or other hazards at sea. Melian, a wood spirit associated specifically with songbirds (and nightingales in particular) married the Elf lord Thingol and, for her love of him, her skills protected their kingdom or Doriath through most of the First Age - keeping the forces of Morgoth at bay by confusing the paths that would lead there. In short, they weren't at the level of the Olympians, but they were still forces of nature.

Olórin is associated with dreams, but it is also known that he learned pity and patience from the Vala Nienna. He loved the Elves and would often go among them unseen and would inspire them to good ends. He was known for his wisdom, but he feared Sauron. Despite this, or indeed because of this, he was chosen by Manwë, king of the "gods", as an emissary to the free peoples of Middle-earth, to inspire them to resist Sauron. To lend his wisdom in council, but not to lead or intimidate. He was not overtly a warrior, although he was a dangerous foe to cross and his remit includes the caretaking of the world, delegated to him within his ability by the capital G God of the setting, and over its matter he would retain great levels of control within the rules of the world. Fire could be kindled, but not without fuel, for example. He could call forth light in the darkness, he could strike a stone bridge to shatter it, could lock a door by commanding it to be so, and he fought a more warlike peer for days on end when called upon to do so - fighting a running battle from a deep subterranean cave to the mountain's peak. He was Gandalf.

Bobb

2015-11-13, 10:49 PM

Didn't the Valar have a role in the creation of the world as well?

Or am I misremembering the song sang by them all with the Creator?

Broken Crown

2015-11-13, 10:53 PM

I think if it came down to a death battle, dumbledoore would win if gandalf couldnt go full angelic being. Dumbledoore just has a much more VAST arsenal of spells and abilities to work with. Things that gandalf has never even intimated being capable of. Transfiguration is probably the biggest example. Dumbledoore effectively can control reality with his ability to turn virtually anything into anything. Whats gandalf gonna do? Launch burning pine cones at him? (I know, he is far more capable than that, im exaggerating for effect here) Hell, dumbledoore could take him down with the equivalent of schoolyard hexes. A leg locker keeps gandalf from charging at him swinging his sword, a silencio keeps him from chanting out any spells, and an accio staff combined with a sticking charm to the floor removes his ability to fight at all. Oh, and dumbledoore is at least capable of some wandless magic, so even if gandalf managed to take out his wand somehow, that wouldnt end the fight as effectively as gandalf losing his staff. After that, transmute gandalfs head into marble and strut off screen like the badass he is.

While it's very possible that Dumbledore would win a one-on-one fight against Gandalf, there are a few problems with your argument:

- "A silencio keeps him from chanting out any spells": Gandalf's spells mostly don't involve chanting, especially the ones he uses in fights.

- "An accio staff... removes his ability to fight at all.": The purpose of a wizard's staff is never really addressed. It's not clear to what extent, if any, a wizard needs it to use his powers; it could be simply a badge of office. When Gandalf tells Saruman, "Your staff is broken!" it's at least as likely that he's saying that Saruman, having been removed from the White Council, is no longer worthy to wield his powers or his staff, as saying that without a staff, Saruman has no power. So this isn't a useful argument for either side.

- "Dumbledore could take him down with the equivalent of schoolyard hexes.": One point that is repeatedly made in the Harry Potter books is that the Killing Curse, Avada Kadavra, is unblockable (except by one method which really ought to have been more widely known, when you think about it). Since this is considered worth mentioning repeatedly, it suggests that most curses are not unblockable, and that defences and countermeasures exist against them. (This is explicitly shown to be true for the Imperius curse, which at least some people can just shrug off.) The Hogwarts curriculum for "Defence Against the Dark Arts" apparently spends little time on teaching actual defence, but maybe it happens between chapters; the books frequently gloss over weeks at a time, and it's very clear in later books that either the students have learned some way to block or avoid curses, or else the Death Eaters are simply amazingly bad shots. Either way, even battle-hardened HP wizards seem to have trouble making their spells take effect in actual combat against teenagers.

Again, I'm not saying that Gandalf would win. We certainly see Dumbledore use a more impressive array of spells. But I don't think we can assume an easy victory for Dumbledore, based on what we know.

Frozen_Feet

2015-11-14, 01:28 AM

It depends on the range and terrain they start in.

Gandalf can fence for days with what's for all intents and purposes a flaming devil from the deepest pits of Hell. Gandalf is obviously physically superior to Dumbledore in terms of strength, speed, endurance and durability. I'd say it's a situation akin to a knife versus pistol: if G starts within 7 meters of D, he can just lop off D's wand/hand/arm/head with his sword before D gets to do much anything.

It's at ranges above that where it becomes an open question. In D&D terms, G has been seen using call light, call animal, hold portal, read magic, dispel magic, lightning bolt, fire seeds, telekinesis and shatter - certainly, an array that's capable of disarming or killing D in the right conditions.

But D calls that list and tops it with charm person, hold person, sense thoughts, teleport, animate objects, baleful polymorph and what else. D could stall against G practically forever and pick and choose the field of battle.

Talion

2015-11-14, 01:54 AM

Hmm....breakdown time:

Gandalf:

Mixes Melee and Magic
Equipment: Wizard Staff (?), Glamdiring (Sword), Narya (the Elven Ring of Fire), Elvish Cloak
Odd, small mixture of spells shown throughout series, mostly smaller effects that provide enhancements.
Virtually immune to serious harm as Gandalf the White

Dumbledore:
Pure Magic
Equipment: Elder Wand, Phoenix Familiar
Known to have mastered a large number of spells, including "Things I'd never seen anyone do with a wand before", as well as Teleportaton.

All things considered:

We don't know the full extent of what Gandalf, particularly Gandalf the White, is capable of. However, the magic shown in the HP universe is much less subtle than that seen throughout the LotR universe. Dumbledore himself does not seem to be a Heal buff (since, as memory serves, he saved the healing to the school nurse and others most of the time) but might have a few smaller ones as a given. His real bonus becomes his evasion ability through the Apparition skill, functionally a teleport. Gandalf presumably has a great deal of magical resistance, at least at Gandalf the White, which could negate a lot of lower level spells and hexes that Dumbledore could put out (Full Body Bind for example).

However, we don't have a full understanding of what each truly has available in terms of their spell list. The only thing that is certain is that, from what is seen, Dumbledore does have more variety in his spell list. So, I would say between Dumbledore and Gandalf the White, Dumbledore would win IF he can overcome Dumbledore's magic resistance. His enhanced spell list, specialization in fighting magical opponents, and, above all else, teleportation, gives him a very fine advantage against Gandalf. The odds further favor Dumbledore while Gandalf is still ranked as the Grey, who is significantly less powerful than when he is ranked as the White.

Further, Dumbledore can turn himself invisible at will, while Gandalf requires the aid of his Elvish Cloak to blend in with his surroundings. However, through Narya he gains a significant bonus to his resistance vs domination, so we most likely wouldn't see a mind controlled Gandalf.

Mato

2015-11-14, 11:07 AM

http://i.imgur.com/IltpEwK.jpg
http://imgur.com/gallery/yyhsy
:smallbiggrin:

Talakeal

2015-11-19, 10:28 PM

I've occasionally wondered whether Tom Bombadil belongs in Middle-Earth at all, or whether he just showed up from somewhere else, liked it, and decided to stick around. In which case, he is more akin to Ungoliant than to anything else in the setting, which is a vaguely disturbing thought.

That has always been my theory. You are the first person besides myself who I have ever seen achnowledge the similarities to Ungoliant.

ben-zayb

2015-11-21, 09:48 PM

Before I even clicked that link I knew what it was for.

Heck, I was expecting that the first reply would be related to the rap battle.

I've occasionally wondered whether Tom Bombadil belongs in Middle-Earth at all, or whether he just showed up from somewhere else, liked it, and decided to stick around. In which case, he is more akin to Ungoliant than to anything else in the setting, which is a vaguely disturbing thought.Since the Old and Fatherless link was already brought up, how about a LOTR Tom vs HP Tom fight instead?

The Glyphstone

2015-11-21, 09:52 PM

One is a (technically) mortal wizard. One is either an immortal spirit of some kind, a godlike being, or an outright eldritch abomination from beyond space and time, though a rather benign and benevolent one. The best outcome here is Voldemort walking away in disgust after Bombadil keep shrugging off kill spells without even trying to retaliate.

kaufen

2015-11-22, 08:05 AM

Both of these wizards had great power in their realms. While each of them assisted in the defeat of their enemy, they played the role of wise confidants and guides. Which one is truly a better wizard? Opinions vary significantly from person to person, but one thing is for sure; they are both great characters who are vital to the plot and overall meaning of their stories.

Mato

2015-11-22, 10:02 AM

The best outcome here is Voldemort walking away in disgust after Bombadil keep shrugging off kill spells without even trying to retaliate.I never understood the fascination with the kill charm, in HPverse you have a save-less dominate effect and no one ever got around to inventing a block or counter for it. But on the other hand, attempting to kill someone loved by another can make a death curse reflect on you. So why kill anyone when you can just make them your slave?

HPverse just isn't a very well executed universe.

Mystic Muse

2015-11-22, 10:06 AM

You DO get a save against the Imperius curse. This was shown several times in Book 4, if I recall correctly.

AvatarVecna

2015-11-22, 10:18 AM

I never understood the fascination with the kill charm, in HPverse you have a save-less dominate effect and no one ever got around to inventing a block or counter for it. But on the other hand, attempting to kill someone loved by another can make a death curse reflect on you. So why kill anyone when you can just make them your slave?

HPverse just isn't a very well executed universe.

The dominate effect isn't saveless, it's just hard to resist; it can be done though: in-universe, few people have the will to resist it regularly, but most of them are canonically sheeple. In D&D terms, the average member of the population is a low-level, low-Wis sorcerer/wizard; when a high-level wizard comes along and casts Dominate Person/Monster on them, they can't resist...but that's not because the spell itself is irresistible, they're just weak-willed. Multiple people within the world have shown themselves to be incredibly resistant to it, even throwing it off instantly (Harry Potter, the special Chosen One, was the only 14 year old to throw it off when it was demonstrated on them by the Nuttiest Professor). Beyond that, there's a lot of ways to affect the mind in the HP universe, and mental defenses exist (Occlumency, a few potions, etc.); even somebody without special defenses can throw off the Imperius Curse.

The Killing Curse is a different story. It can't be blocked or reflected by anything; if it hits you, you die...and there's no undoing real death in the HP universe (although there's cheaty ways to become "mostly dead" instead).

Harry has survived it at least once, and possibly twice; the only confirmed time was when Voldemort killed Harry in the forest near the end of the series, which Harry only survived because the curse killed the piece of torn-off soul living in his head (oh, did I need to spoiler that for you? In that case, here's another spoiler alert: Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father!). Even then, Harry ended up mostly dead, and he could've actually died if he'd chosen to give up completely. As for the other time, it's not actually canonically confirmed that Voldy AK'd Harry as a baby; while Harry saw that curse when he was a baby, that was Voldemort killing his mother in front of him, not necessarily using it on Harry. It can't be stressed enough that nobody knows exactly what happened that night, only that Voldemort died somehow, and that Lily's heroic sacrifice is generally credited in the fan community while Harry's special Chosen One powers are credited in-universe. One theory is that Voldemort was there to make a final horcrux (his seventh), but that attempting to split his soul so far caused some kind of magical backlash, but it's only a theory.

There is exactly one other being in the HP universe that has survived a direct hit from the Killing Curse, and that's Fawkes...the phoenix. I mean, he still burst into flames and "died", but he came back, because phoenix.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Voldemort in particular was fond of the Killing Curse because he feared Death himself and considered it the worst of the three.

Kitten Champion

2015-11-22, 10:45 AM

The Killing Curse is a different story. It can't be blocked or reflected by anything; if it hits you, you die...and there's no undoing real death in the HP universe (although there's cheaty ways to become "mostly dead" instead).

It can be blocked by an inanimate physical object getting in the way - presumably of sufficient mass since clothes the characters wear are generally ineffective.

Which actually begs the question why Harry Potter Wizards don't fashion body armour for themselves rather than relying on spells alone for everything. There are no real somatic requirements to duelling spells beyond pointing a wand, and you could enchant the armour to make it very convenient.

AvatarVecna

2015-11-22, 10:51 AM

It can be blocked by an inanimate physical object getting in the way - presumably of sufficient mass since clothes the characters wear are generally ineffective.

Which actually begs the question why Harry Potter Wizards don't fashion body armour for themselves rather than relying on spells alone for everything. There are no real somatic requirements to duelling spells beyond pointing a wand, and you could enchant the armour to make it very convenient.

I was talking magically; there are occasions where physical objects are used to block the spell, but it doesn't mean armor is the right move, since clothes don't really block it for some reason. It's also worth mentioning that the objects it strikes generally burst into flame as a result, so even if armor was affected as a free object rather than clothes, it would mean your clothes were set on fire while you're in the middle of being attacked by somebody sending Killing Curses around (not that flames aren't easy to deal with, but being set on fire can be a might distracting even if it doesn't burn you.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that HP wizards aren't exactly the armor-wearing type; while armor doesn't necessarily cause spells to fail through restricted movement, but armor can be kind of heavy, and most wizards are...less than physically fit. The closest they've got to exercise is Quidditch, where a good deal of the effort in is the magic brooms/bats and their obsrvational skills/reflexes.

Mato

2015-11-22, 12:34 PM

You DO get a save against the Imperius curse. This was shown several times in Book 4, if I recall correctly.Not really.

Remember the curse makes you want to do the actions. Normally not wanting to perform them, such as self-harm, offers zero ability to resist it because it flips their decision making process into wanting it. Which also has the side effect of mechanically meaning that the stronger your ability to say no is, such as Gandalf's ring of power, the stronger the demand for you to say yes becomes.

Actual resistance is based on total apathy and freedom from desire in order to act and behave according to a specific code of conduct no matter you're actual feelings on it. It's pretty much synonymous with measuring someone's devotion to religion which is a fairly hard subject to discuss, I feel it's best left to saying it's a plot-device immunity that occurs at protagonist-levels of rarity and not something that you can claim to be present in a generally presented population.

Also Harry survived from a sacrificial protection charm cast on him by his mother. The charm's effect is was so powerful that just by living near his bloodkin three months out of the year Harry was a reflecting mirror of the killing curse for almost seventeen years. The charm is so substantially powerful in HPverse that Harry's false-death cast it on all of his classmates allowing it to serve as the in-world explanation for the happy ending. So this love-conquers-all charm is a very real threat for any real BBEG, and it's entirely circumvented by preventing people from making the choice to die for their friends.

Kitten Champion

2015-11-22, 12:58 PM

I was talking magically; there are occasions where physical objects are used to block the spell, but it doesn't mean armor is the right move, since clothes don't really block it for some reason. It's also worth mentioning that the objects it strikes generally burst into flame as a result, so even if armor was affected as a free object rather than clothes, it would mean your clothes were set on fire while you're in the middle of being attacked by somebody sending Killing Curses around (not that flames aren't easy to deal with, but being set on fire can be a might distracting even if it doesn't burn you.

Sure... but a bullet's gonna hurt either way, would you not rather be wearing a bulletproof vest in a gun fight? Particularly when you know with complete certainty that that a single bullet will definitely kill you 100% of the time.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that HP wizards aren't exactly the armor-wearing type; while armor doesn't necessarily cause spells to fail through restricted movement, but armor can be kind of heavy, and most wizards are...less than physically fit. The closest they've got to exercise is Quidditch, where a good deal of the effort in is the magic brooms/bats and their obsrvational skills/reflexes.

But, that assumes Wizards and Witches have to worry about mundane things like weight and encumbrance. Just enchant the armour to fit comfortably and move freely, you could put wards and protection charms on it as well. Shouldn't be difficult for a people who can make sentient flying cars and TARDIS tents -- or any of the numerous wonders we've seen them use.

Misery Esquire

2015-11-22, 01:04 PM

But, that assumes Wizards and Witches have to worry about mundane things like weight and encumbrance. Just enchant the armour to fit comfortably and move freely, you could put wards and protection charms on it as well. Shouldn't be difficult for a people who can make sentient flying cars and TARDIS tents -- or any of the numerous wonders we've seen them use.

Don't even bother bulking up with armour, just pull a Dungeons And Dragons and have Animated flying shields instead. They float around you and get in the way of AK's of their own, magical, accord. You can have piles of them easily stored in your pockets since AK just stops at the first object hit they could be quarter-sized.

...Heck, you don't even need to enchant them, just throw a pocketful of coins at whoever's casting the spell, and then Accio whichever ones make it to the floor.

AK is the least threatening spell. :smalltongue:

Traab

2015-11-22, 01:20 PM

Don't even bother bulking up with armour, just pull a Dungeons And Dragons and have Animated flying shields instead. They float around you and get in the way of AK's of their own, magical, accord. You can have piles of them easily stored in your pockets since AK just stops at the first object hit they could be quarter-sized.

...Heck, you don't even need to enchant them, just throw a pocketful of coins at whoever's casting the spell, and then Accio whichever ones make it to the floor.

AK is the least threatening spell. :smalltongue:

Avis charm. Bang, one of the birds falls dead, the rest flap around your opponent causing distractions. Honestly, the real problem is that short of trundling along dressed in a full suit of plate armor, we dont know how thick it has to be to block the effect. For all we know, if its touching you it goes right through even if you have 4 inch thick plate mail on you. And considering if you mess up you die, I cant see it getting tested very much. The books leave a lot of vagueness on these spells. As for Mato, what? Where the heck did you get all that from about how imperious works? Have I missed that many rowling random tweets of info where she brought that up?

zimmerwald1915

2015-11-22, 01:30 PM

As for Mato, what? Where the heck did you get all that from about how imperious works? Have I missed that many rowling random tweets of info where she brought that up?
Mato has it exactly backwards. What the Imperious Curse does, and we see this directly in Book 4, is create a feeling of euphoric apathy that makes the subject extremely suggestible. When Harry fights back, it's not by sinking deeper into the euphoric apathy, it's by reconsidering the orders he's given. We're shown his thoughts, and they're all along the lines of "but why would I want to do that? I'd be making a fool of myself."

Kitten Champion

2015-11-22, 01:52 PM

Avis charm. Bang, one of the birds falls dead, the rest flap around your opponent causing distractions. Honestly, the real problem is that short of trundling along dressed in a full suit of plate armor, we dont know how thick it has to be to block the effect. For all we know, if its touching you it goes right through even if you have 4 inch thick plate mail on you. And considering if you mess up you die, I cant see it getting tested very much.

You could test it with ya'know, rats. Work through the materials and charms required until you have something workable, I'm sure at that point some Auror or something would be willing to take you up on it.

I guess it's a minor issue, considering the amount of hand-waving that comes up with Harry Potter. Though Kinslayer's option is more magically chic than the.. well, shardplate-like suit I was envisioning.

Traab

2015-11-22, 02:26 PM

You could test it with ya'know, rats. Work through the materials and charms required until you have something workable, I'm sure at that point some Auror or something would be willing to take you up on it.

I guess it's a minor issue, considering the amount of hand-waving that comes up with Harry Potter. Though Kinslayer's option is more magically chic than the.. well, shardplate-like suit I was envisioning.

Pfft, floating shields? Most wizards can barely pull off the standard book of spells after graduating. Having to concentrate on keeping your shields floating around you would look awesome but likely make it a lot harder to actually fight back. I always liked the fanfic fights though, conjure stone to intercept, then banish the debris at your attacker. A one-two punch to block an unforgivable and attack your enemy.

Kitten Champion

2015-11-22, 02:30 PM

Pfft, floating shields? Most wizards can barely pull off the standard book of spells after graduating. Having to concentrate on keeping your shields floating around you would look awesome but likely make it a lot harder to actually fight back. I always liked the fanfic fights though, conjure stone to intercept, then banish the debris at your attacker. A one-two punch to block an unforgivable and attack your enemy.

I don't think you'd have to concentrate, after all stuff like a Snitch or the enchanted flying keys from the first book work as prefabricated magical objects with specific functions enchanted into them and no Wizard/Witch operating them consciously.

Traab

2015-11-22, 02:37 PM

I don't think you'd have to concentrate, after all stuff like a Snitch or the enchanted flying keys from the first book work as prefabricated magical objects with specific functions enchanted into them and no Wizard/Witch operating them consciously.

Hmm, thats true, but all it really does is add another step to a chess match. Find the counter to basically finite incantatum them and all your shields go down. After all, I doubt an awesome spell that could permanently charm shielding objects would remain unknown for very long. Its still not a bad idea though, but there are already so many workable ways to not get an AK to the face from dodging, to summoning debris, to conjuring or transfiguring something to take the hit. So in the long run its probably not worth it. Teach people the simple counters instead of teaching them to quail in terror at the "unblockable" ultra scary ak spell and it loses a lot of its luster.