Mythos Homebrew Discussion III: Grievous Imbalance Is A Feature [Archive] - Page 2

DracoDei

2016-03-10, 12:47 PM

My favorite healer that I have ever read about, EVER, was in the book Shadows of Socrates. Instead of healing through divine intervention or magical prowess, he absorbed the injuries and then healed them within himself at a much accelerated rate. The image of someone standing over an injured ally and bandaging themselves before taking on their wounds seems pretty mythic to me. And the quote... "I hate broken bones."

In a more mechanical sense, give the anthol 2d6 or even 2d8 hit points per level, and their intrinsic class ability should grant fast healing equal to maybe 1/3 of their level. Also they can take on the wounds of anyone, but in an "all or nothing" manner. The progression of this might give you some DR against your damage absorption, with the caveat that the damage can never be reduced to zero.
Hmmm.... I guess I could turn those options from Mythos into basic features, but I'm sure if that is the route I want to go.

At the end of the day what you are telling me seems to be "don't worry about giving healing as basics, and then protection and buffing as things that you actually have to pick. Am I right?

Multiple dice for one HD is way too likely to be confusing I think. They already have a way of getting crazy-huge numbers of hitpoints, possibly even without spending mythos points for multi-buying manifestations. (It is under Gift of Aegis, which is their version of Shield Other). Naturally, if I made transferring pre-existing hitpoint damage a basic feature rather than a mythos, I'd probably make the hitpoint boosters its own mythos rather than manifestations of another.

EDIT: Fixed the sentence fragment in the last sentence of the above paragraph. Also: I originally WAS going to give them 2d8 or some such, but one of the earliest comments I got on the concept said not to. I THINK the idea was that it was too inflationary even for mythos? I don't quite recall.

I really like the heal check mechanic you have, too.
You mean with the taking 10 scaling into being able to treat blindness, deafness, and ability and level drain and such? I just want to be sure we are on the same page here.

PeacefulOak

2016-03-10, 02:43 PM

ThreadNecro5

2016-03-10, 04:10 PM

Before I begin working on the mythos that allows trading with aspects of a beings personal power (a bit like a Kathodos's Steam-and-Dust Showdown), does anyone have any advice on balancing it?

I'm thinking unless anyone puts forward a better idea of having the Chrimatia only able to use/benefit from the traded-for thing (e.g. BAB, Mythos, Feat, ect.) once and then it is 'spent', but if given/sold to another being they are permanent for them as normal.

The reason I'm asking this is that without some strict balancing of this idea I feel that a Chrimatia could basically wander around a town mugging people for BAB, Skills, Feats, Ability Score points, or Reach, until you pretty much have PunPun, who then of course will probably repeat the process with gods.

DracoDei

2016-03-10, 04:45 PM

Yes, the advanced uses of healing skills, the default take-10 and take-20 options was what I appreciated.

To be honest, my initial review was based on a read through of only the base abilities of the class, not the Mythos.

The more I read (and I'm into the Fantastic level now), the more this feels like the Mythic Defender, or the Mythic Supporter. Most of the abilities reflect a desire to support, uplift, or physically defend your allies. Not really sure how to offer feedback, as I think that there might be two conflicting ideas behind this class.

Hmmm... Three ideas in the original (non-mythos) class I'm basing this on, actually.
1.) Buffs
2.) AoOs (to screen the rest of the party), note that this becomes entirely optional for the Phileotheysia, since I turned it into a mythos due to its semi-offensive nature.
3.) Healbot

"Conflicting" might or might not apply. This is the guy who lays himself down for the party. The Sacrifice. In extreme cases (especially when deaths revolving door is well greased) The Martyr. I've extended that to "its a dirty job but someone has to do it" type of things such as healbotting. It has a Divine sort of feel to it I think by default, and that goes with healbot. I COULD drop that, but then I wouldn't know what to give them for basic features beyond Charisma to AC I don't think. And, again, Mythos needs a healbot, right? Nobody wants to play the healbot traditionally, and I think this is a good class to tag it onto where it DOESN'T end up being offensive necessarily, and thus mess up the flavor (as I see the healbot flavor).

What do you think? Still think it shouldn't be part of the basics of the class? The buffs can go in so many different directions, I felt like healbot would get left by the way-side, or cost the character too much if I made it a mythos or excellency chain. Again, nobody likes healbotting, but someone needs to do it (even if only an NPC). Although Touch of the Phileotheysia (Excellency) is currently their best source of low-level HP healing.

The aforementioned AoOs (Defensive Strike Mythos and its sequels), and a Disarm/Sunder option. IE the attacks that prostect your allies, rather than being directly offensive.
A lot of the Excellencies are useful for not being the one to drag the party down.
---In a stealth campaign alongside rogues, illusion-loaded wizards, and a cloistered cleric with the trickery domain? There is an excellency (Quiet Mother Betrays Not Her Brood) that adds Hide and Move Silently to your skill list, grants you Darkstalker (at class level 3), and gives you extra skill points as if your Int was 2 points higher for your Phileotheysia levels. The sequel EEver-Silent Unseen Guardian Spirit), means you never need a separate hiding spot or Invisibility spell when staying close to the party.
---Need to physically keep up? Try Omega-Wolf Keeps the Pace excellency (Dash, Endurance, and bonuses to forced marches... including letting you Sacrifice to help other people keep up. Not enough? How about Wherever You Go, I Shall Not Fail To Follow (Exceptional Mythos) that lets you copy your allies movement modes at half their speed and, for flight, also reduced maneuverability.
-Some miscellaneous "dirty job" type of excellencies.
---One that lets you "trap monkey".
---The one that makes you excellent at standing your watch when resting in dangerous locations (Dutiful Watchman Alertness). And its sequel(s) just make you even better at that.
---Alignment checking.
---Social skills such as speak language, gather information, etc. To smooth the way and avoid trouble. The players having to "do their homework" rather than just hack and slash can be a good thing, but spending the skill points is a "dirty job" (although to a certain extent all the characters need to have investment depending on how the GM is ruling diplomacy and maybe bluff work).

PeacefulOak

2016-03-10, 05:23 PM

Hmmm... Three ideas in the original (non-mythos) class I'm basing this on, actually.
1.) Buffs
2.) AoOs (to screen the rest of the party), note that this becomes entirely optional for the Phileotheysia, since I turned it into a mythos due to its semi-offensive nature.
3.) Healbot

"Conflicting" might or might not apply. This is the guy who lays himself down for the party. The Sacrifice. In extreme cases (especially when deaths revolving door is well greased) The Martyr. I've extended that to "its a dirty job but someone has to do it" type of things such as healbotting. It has a Divine sort of feel to it I think by default, and that goes with healbot. I COULD drop that, but then I wouldn't know what to give them for basic features beyond Charisma to AC I don't think. And, again, Mythos needs a healbot, right? Nobody wants to play the healbot traditionally, and I think this is a good class to tag it onto where it DOESN'T end up being offensive necessarily, and thus mess up the flavor (as I see the healbot flavor).

The aforementioned AoOs (Defensive Strike Mythos and its sequels), and a Disarm/Sunder option. IE the attacks that prostect your allies, rather than being directly offensive.
A lot of the Excellencies are useful for not being the one to drag the party down.
---In a stealth campaign alongside rogues, illusion-loaded wizards, and a cloistered cleric with the trickery domain? There is an excellency (Quiet Mother Betrays Not Her Brood) that adds Hide and Move Silently to your skill list, grants you Darkstalker (at class level 3), and gives you extra skill points as if your Int was 2 points higher for your Phileotheysia levels. The sequel EEver-Silent Unseen Guardian Spirit), means you never need a separate hiding spot or Invisibility spell when staying close to the party.
---Need to physically keep up? Try Omega-Wolf Keeps the Pace excellency (Dash, Endurance, and bonuses to forced marches... including letting you Sacrifice to help other people keep up. Not enough? How about Wherever You Go, I Shall Not Fail To Follow (Exceptional Mythos) that lets you copy your allies movement modes at half their speed and, for flight, also reduced maneuverability.
-Some miscellaneous "dirty job" type of excellencies.
---One that lets you "trap monkey".
---The one that makes you excellent at standing your watch when resting in dangerous locations (Dutiful Watchman Alertness). And its sequel(s) just make you even better at that.
---Alignment checking.
---Social skills such as speak language, gather information, etc. To smooth the way and avoid trouble. The players having to "do their homework" rather than just hack and slash can be a good thing, but spending the skill points is a "dirty job" (although to a certain extent all the characters need to have investment depending on how the GM is ruling diplomacy and maybe bluff work).

I think I understand your intent with this class, as to fill in the various roles that other *players* don't necessarily want to play. I appreciate that sentiment, as it is one I often find myself filling when I'm a player (which is also why I enjoy DMing). I think making a defensive support character, whose purpose is to get into the thick of battle and shut down the opposition while inspiring and supporting their allies, is a great concept.

Were I to tackle that, using a lot of your existing framework, I would make the defensive strike into a core class feature, I think, and make the nature/benefit of that strike become something that is modified by your mythos and situations. Maybe rename it to a defensive reaction? Have the class feature be that you, a number of times per (day/encounter/other thing) equal to maybe your Charisma modifier x 1/4 class level, can declare yourself to have retroactively readied an action to respond to a situation that has just occurred.

The Mythos then would apply templates and situations/reactions to those that you can apply, such as your Defensive Strike. You can add in things like your Bardic Music ability, but as a reaction instead of a pro-active thing. This could turn into a really elegant class that could potentially have the answer to nearly everything, in the moment. Diplomancer situations could be that you had a secret about the person you are talking to in the back of your mind, or a clutch piece of information that affects the outcome of the interaction be that through Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate.

Healing could be done the same way, or added in as a separate Mythos chain that adds some healing utility to the class. Different, non-reaction Mythos could be used to add non-reaction utility.

vasharanpaladin

2016-03-10, 06:26 PM

New Magic fiction got me thinking about my old Luminarch idea again. I may actually end up using alignment somehow, if only because it might go well with this new stuff about Avacyn.

DracoDei

2016-03-11, 02:20 PM

I think I understand your intent with this class, as to fill in the various roles that other *players* don't necessarily want to play.

Well, among other things.

The original seed of the idea was to create a character whose primary challenge in combat was simply to survive, but who was also effective in combat just by being there. A character for whom Total Defense would be as common an action as the stereo-typical fighter's full-attack. I've moved away from that into focusing on "Sacrifice" (both IC and on the meta-level of "dirty jobs"), but there you go.

I appreciate that sentiment, as it is one I often find myself filling when I'm a player (which is also why I enjoy DMing). I think making a defensive support character, whose purpose is to get into the thick of battle and shut down the opposition while inspiring and supporting their allies, is a great concept.

Glad to find another person who would want to play it. This may be less niche than I was lead to believe, although your later comments make me wonder.

Were I to tackle that, using a lot of your existing framework, I would make the defensive strike into a core class feature, I think, and make the nature/benefit of that strike become something that is modified by your mythos and situations.

Well, as I said, its semi-offensive nature means that it is something I want to keep strictly optional, although with what you say below this could cover the buffs as well.

Maybe rename it to a defensive reaction? Have the class feature be that you, a number of times per (day/encounter/other thing)
That doesn't jive with most mythos abilities, but I could perhaps be talked into it?

equal to maybe your Charisma modifier x 1/4 class level, can declare yourself to have retroactively readied an action to respond to a situation that has just occurred.
Hmmm.... so instead of swift actions they use readied actions?

At first I was going to say that that cuts into the "Sacrifice" theme, but then again there is no particular reason why that would HAVE to be true.,

I see about three potential issues with this idea:

It does mean that you spend a shorter period of time vulnerable (from the attacker's turn until your next turn rather than starting from your turn), unless I make it go longer than that which would be even more of a game-slower than the class already is (it tends to end up with a lot of options you have to sort through every turn to find the relevant ones).

The other thing is if you decide what form of protection and to whom you are providing it when the attack actually occurs, then it takes a lot of the tactics out of the class in that your choices become basically no-brainers usually, rather than trying to anticipate the flow of battle. You still need to decide if you want to use your effect, or save it for a threat between now and the start of your next turn, but that isn't nearly on the same level.

Thirdly, there was a very good reason why I gave them swift-action abilities, rather than standard. The class needs to be vulnerable for a lot of the "sacrifice" mechanics to mean anything. If you could stand 100 feet back and give away things like AC and saves to your allies, that would be pretty silly. Thus most of the abilities have fairly short ranges (Carry the Burden and the "for when the party gets split" type abilities being the major exceptions). This, in turn, requires a fairly mobile character who can move around the battlefield to get to where they anticipate being most needed. Light armor and Tumble help, but in order to keep up with a meleeist ally who is charging, you can't be using up standard or move actions to do thing.

This isn't to say that I'm rejecting the concept. You may have suggestions for how these things could be addressed, or I may have misunderstood what you are trying to describe.

The Mythos then would apply templates and situations/reactions to those that you can apply, such as your Defensive Strike. You can add in things like your Bardic Music ability, but as a reaction instead of a pro-active thing. This could turn into a really elegant class that could potentially have the answer to nearly everything, in the moment. Diplomancer situations could be that you had a secret about the person you are talking to in the back of your mind, or a clutch piece of information that affects the outcome of the interaction be that through Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate.
Sounds more like a chronomancer thing, and, as I said, either game-slowing or pretty mindless to play.

Healing could be done the same way, or added in as a separate Mythos chain that adds some healing utility to the class. Different, non-reaction Mythos could be used to add non-reaction utility.
My gut reaction is that the healing should remain out of combat, so as to keep the focus on prevention, rather than curative stuff, but you might have something there. The closest to effective in-combat healing they currently get is taking 10 to stabilize and Gift of Aegis to split damage taken by a target. That second is probably more relevant.

PeacefulOak

2016-03-11, 03:20 PM

Bear in mind that I am only one person offering only one point of view.

The concept of the "reaction ability" feature was to use swift actions, and to keep your rules around not committing directly offensive actions.

My concept would make it so you have the ability to react to situations affecting your allies on an ad-hoc basis. To add to your planning/strategy preference, you could make it so that you have to declare the targets covered by your reactions before-hand, and that they would have to be within a certain range.

In any case, if my suggestions have offered nothing more than another perspective and a different angle from which to view your class, then my work has been a success. :)

In a similar, if very different thought.... has anyone ever created/considered creating a rageless Teramach?

Xefas

2016-03-11, 04:08 PM

In a similar, if very different thought.... has anyone ever created/considered creating a rageless Teramach?

Red Fel started a thread to that effect (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426526-Cool-Head-Bloody-Fists-Optimizing-a-Rage-less-Teramach) about 8 months ago. But, sadly, Mythos classes aren't popular and wide spread enough that you can just make optimization threads about them in the d20 forum (well, you can, they just won't bear fruit).

Personally, I don't see the appeal.

Red Fel

2016-03-11, 10:23 PM

Red Fel started a thread to that effect (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426526-Cool-Head-Bloody-Fists-Optimizing-a-Rage-less-Teramach) about 8 months ago. But, sadly, Mythos classes aren't popular and wide spread enough that you can just make optimization threads about them in the d20 forum (well, you can, they just won't bear fruit).

Personally, I don't see the appeal.

Funny that you invoke My Name, given that I was thinking of positing a question here, myself.

I was wondering if anybody had laid claim to the idea of a Mythos Monk. I had a few ideas on that point, but having no class-building experience to draw on, I was rather reluctant to start anything myself. And while I've seen a few classes that could do something along that line with unarmed combat (e.g. Bellator, Teramach) or the mystical flow of energy (e.g. Kathodos), I saw nothing quite where I saw a Mythos Monk going. I see something with various ways to train the body and spirit, with a distinctly wuxia feel to it, and I'm not sure that it's been quite captured yet.

If somebody was interested in the idea, I'd be glad to offer my suggestions to someone more able to build a class. Otherwise, I'm a bit reluctant to design something this big from scratch, but... I dunno. Kinda depends on what goes into it, I suppose.

Sgt. Cookie

2016-03-11, 10:40 PM

Be careful when using... "that" name.

I once said it three times in front of a mirror and "he" appeared. We ended up knocking back a few beers and having a discussion on the necessity of holding dominion over lesser men.

Red Fel

2016-03-11, 10:55 PM

I once said it three times in front of a mirror and "he" appeared. We ended up knocking back a few beers and having a discussion on the necessity of holding dominion over lesser men.

I won't turn down a good conversation on totalitarianism.

Or a good microbrew.

VoodooPaladin

2016-03-12, 11:49 AM

I was wondering if anybody had laid claim to the idea of a Mythos Monk. I had a few ideas on that point, but having no class-building experience to draw on, I was rather reluctant to start anything myself. And while I've seen a few classes that could do something along that line with unarmed combat (e.g. Bellator, Teramach) or the mystical flow of energy (e.g. Kathodos), I saw nothing quite where I saw a Mythos Monk going. I see something with various ways to train the body and spirit, with a distinctly wuxia feel to it, and I'm not sure that it's been quite captured yet.

I think the closest thing on the current roster would be a mid-level Epistemian, whose powers are derived from burgeoning, psyche-shattering enlightenment. They know kung fu, but Union's Mythos doesn't believe in Ex-only, if its banner is any indication.

But if you'd like to make a Wuxia Mythos, well I for one look forward to it! Sounds more like the kind of thing best handled with supplemental Mythos for pre-existing Mythos classes, but I'm not sure. .02$ and so on.

Red Fel

2016-03-12, 12:04 PM

I think the closest thing on the current roster would be a mid-level Epistemian, whose powers are derived from burgeoning, psyche-shattering enlightenment. They know kung fu, but Union's Mythos doesn't believe in Ex-only, if its banner is any indication.

But if you'd like to make a Wuxia Mythos, well I for one look forward to it! Sounds more like the kind of thing best handled with supplemental Mythos for pre-existing Mythos classes, but I'm not sure. .02$ and so on.

Well, it wasn't designed to be specifically wuxia - although making wuxia expansions for existing classes would probably be easier - so much as it was intended to invoke the same atmospheric style and concept.

The idea I had was basically personal refinement - refine the body, senses, spirit. Much like the Kathodos, I would have different Mythos tags (Body, Mind, Spirit) that would give progressive bonuses to different areas of character development. The guy who trains to have an indestructible gut, for example, versus the guy who can pick a fly out of the air with chopsticks, or the guy who can sense malice in the heart of his opponent. I would also have weapon groups available based on how you specialized your Mythos, because while I love a capable unarmed combatant, I'm not going to pretend that classic-style Monks got by on their fists and good looks alone.

I just have to figure out what I'd have to rip off adapt to get started.

I should probably look at the Epistemian first, though, to make sure I'm not stepping on any toes.

VoodooPaladin

2016-03-12, 09:07 PM

I should probably look at the Epistemian first, though, to make sure I'm not stepping on any toes.

I suppose I should save you some trouble? The Epistemian is one of those ideas he threw on this Mythos Classes (http://imgur.com/a/EPekI) scrapbook. It's nothing but a banner and some descriptive text, seventh down from the top.*

With the official position towards Mythos material re: 'toe-squishin' being complete acceptability, you're fine. Hell, there's a chance you'll inspire others to make some more material, which we could all use. The Mythos system both runs on and is made of inspiration, after all.

*Well, I do remember some ideas being thrown about Union (the Mythos in question) being the origin of the Lady of Pain. That was kind of neat.

Red Fel

2016-03-12, 09:59 PM

I suppose I should save you some trouble? The Epistemian is one of those ideas he threw on this Mythos Classes (http://imgur.com/a/EPekI) scrapbook. It's nothing but a banner and some descriptive text, seventh down from the top.*

With the official position towards Mythos material re: 'toe-squishin' being complete acceptability, you're fine. Hell, there's a chance you'll inspire others to make some more material, which we could all use. The Mythos system both runs on and is made of inspiration, after all.

*Well, I do remember some ideas being thrown about Union (the Mythos in question) being the origin of the Lady of Pain. That was kind of neat.

Ahh, I remember seeing this. It sounds like the Epistemian is basically the character who becomes aware of the rules (i.e. the narrative) and therefore how to exploit them. Which actually sounds super awesome, but not quite what I was thinking of pursuing.

Well, then, I suppose I can pursue this idea... I'll have to sleep on it...

Is there an official list of Titans, or is it just sort of evolving as things go? It's all a bit daunting, still.

Also, I was thinking of "Autogen" as the class name (i.e. self-creating). Is that a good name, do you think, or too plain?

Lanth Sor

2016-03-13, 10:51 AM

@Draco sorry haven't got back about the fluff. Totally ADOSed(attention deficit ooh shiney) that I have several days off I'll get that done. Also do you have any issues with the guardian being the Titan the martyr was born from?

@red fel there is no list of all Titans just some of them the idea is make the Titan that fits you class idea.

DracoDei

2016-03-13, 04:54 PM

@Draco sorry haven't got back about the fluff. Totally ADOSed(attention deficit ooh shiney) that I have several days off I'll get that done. Also do you have any issues with the guardian being the Titan the martyr was born from?
I forget who The Guardian is? The Empyrean's (AKA Sol Invictus equivalent's) bodyguard?

I wasn't aware that Titans could be born from eachother, but it sounds right. I guess almost anything goes with Titans, right?

Just to be clear in light of my recent discussion with PeacefulOak: I still think a mergence with a Healing Titan (or lesser entity) is indicated, but I'll leave that up to you.

Lanth Sor

2016-03-13, 10:44 PM

The agios's Titan was the guardian and the end of his story is that of sacrifice protecting the first sentient beings from the ravages of the chaos.

DracoDei

2016-03-14, 11:00 AM

The agios's Titan was the guardian and the end of his story is that of sacrifice protecting the first sentient beings from the ravages of the chaos.
Sounds good based on that.

Poke me if I forget to credit you for your work, okay?

Sgt. Cookie

2016-03-16, 04:05 PM

Hey, Xefas, I'd post this in the Olethroflex thread but I don't want to get it locked, but I have a question:

Does Seal-Shattering End of Days Invocation provoke an Attack of Opportunity?

Not gonna lie, when I first thought about this, I was giggling like mad.

ThreadNecro5

2016-03-16, 04:57 PM

I've got another few aditions to the Chrimatia, posting them here for the running PEACH, just figuring its peatter to get things smoothed out before the whole thing is posted.

First I now have Manifistations for Sign of Success:

Sign of Success
Any creature who possesses less money than you (spread across all their and your possessions) naturally has their attitude towards you begin one step closer to Helpful, and you gain an additional +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks to convince them to preform a specific course of action. Most Chrimatia with this Mythos also have their features subtly shift so that they look like a ‘successful’ individual according to their home society and personal outlook, which can include appearing more physically fit from a rugged lifestyle, putting on weight as if from years of decadence, or gaining features that would be recognized as ‘noble’ and such.

Advanced Manifestations
Golden Ward
Against the attacks of beings who possess less money than you (identified as per the method above) you increase your natural amour by +2.

Gleaming Distraction
At the cost of 1d6 GP per use, you may toss a handful of coins to distract creatures. To do this you target a 5ft space within 30ft you can see and that is not in mid air. All creatures within 30ft who could see that space or who pass a DC10 Listen check must take a will save. On a failed save they are Blinded for 1d4 rounds and must move by whatever means possible towards the space you targeted as they are distracted by the tossed coins and try to take them. Should more than once creature reach the targeted space there is a 50% chance they will attack and be aggressive towards any other creature who attempts to take the tossed coins.

Ignorance of the Impoverished
Against beings who possess less money than you (identified as per the method above) you gain a +4 bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Additionally against such being you do not take a penalty of Hide checks for moving over half speed and no not require cover or concealment to use the Hide skill.

And the Land-owning Mythos (Advanced Manifestationss not yet written), and the power trading Mythos which I feel could use some better wording if anyone has any recommendations under the 'power' heading. I based it on the Kathodos's Steam-and-Dust Showdown for internal consistency, pre-existing balancing and mechanics (even if shifted around somewhat), and being lazy.

Lord of the Land
You may pay 2000GP in order to gain a connection to an area of land measuring a complete circle with a one mile diameter as a Full Round action. Should this land be owned by an individual, organization, or government, the being with the greatest overall authority of this location may make a will save to prevent this. Should the being making the will save personally live within that location they gain a +4 bonus to the save. Should they have never been tot hat location they take a -2 penalty to the save. All land you personalty own is effected by this Mythos’s effects for free. Land you are connected to via this Mythos is known as claimed land.

When you are on claimed land you gain a +2 bonus on spot, Search, Spot, and, Listen checks. Additionally you can call to mind a list of all creatures and items worth over 1000GP within a specific 1-mile claimed area, and the direction to all listed things, and have an intuitive understanding of the area, meaning that you always know your relative position to the center of a patch of claimed land and are unable to become lost. You do not however know the distance to listed things, or any other details. Finally you are treated as the complete controller of all of your claimed land, and may change laws and act as you see fit (this does not however prevent people from disobeying laws and reacting oddly to your behavior).
Basic Manifestations:
Gap in the Market
When you have two or more regions of claimed land that are less than half a mile apart, determine the center of where these regions lie. The limit of the area of claimed land extend by 5ft per day towards this region, this is measured from the widest point of one patch of claimed land to the widest point of the nearest other, and continues inward so the whole area extends. For example three patches of land placed into the corners of a triangle would grow into a complete straight edged triangular shape.

Step 3: Profit
Once per week the creature with the greatest total ranks of Profession per mile of claimed land, who has inhabited a part of claimed land for at least 48 hours makes a special Proffesion roll as a free action in which no actual work is done or time taken. You gain the gold the creature would have earned. One such roll is made per each individual mile of claimed land.

Universal Omnibroker
You gain the ability to trade in anything. You or and the the other creature (referred to as either the buyer or the seller as appropriate) may offer anything that they own (as defined by the GM, but generally determined by anything in whose existence that they are the ruling entity) in the exchange, mechanics that should cover most circumstances are below. The seller/buyer must make this trade willingly without magical compulsion (the creature does not however have to know they seriously did so, a trade made in jest is still a trade made). Once agreed upon the agreed trade immediately follows through. Selling something you gain via this Mythos is treated as trading it away. You may not trade this Mythos to others.

-Magical Items. When a magic item is traded all its magical properties cease to function for its prior owner (unless possession is given back to them), and merely carrying it voluntarily imposes a -1 penalty on all d20 rolls, and if it is a weapon or a suit of armor, they treat the item as if they were not proficient with it.

-Services Rendered. During the trade specify a particular course of action that the ‘seller’ to take, they are bound to perform that course of action. This Mythos enforces the spirit of the agreement, not the letter, so it is largely impossible to trick someone into agreeing to something they didn't intend to with clever wordplay. Once someone is bound to perform the specified duty, they will do so, to the best of their ability, without attempting to directly subvert their agreement, although they need not enjoy doing so.

-Power. The participants of the trade may stake some amount of their own power, to be given to the other. Examples of ‘Power’ that may be traded include Mythos Points, Mythos, Invocations, Soulmelds, Vestiges, Spells Known, Spells per day, Class Features, Ability Score points, individual +1s of saving throw bonuses, BAB, Feats, Ect. The being trading their power looses what they traded, while it is gain by the other individual who is treated as having whatever class features and knowledge needed to make those abilities function. For example were a Sorcerer to trade a 1st level spell per day, the new owner of that spell per day may use that spell per day as if they were a sorcerer (they may not however know any Sorcerer spells). Any ‘power’ the Chrimatia gains via this Mythos and sues personally instead of trading it onward to another being may only be used once and after which it is lost, unless they pay an amount of GP or Mythos Points (in any combination) equal to the number of HD of the source of the ‘Power’ at the time it was gained x10.

For non-physical item traded via this Mythos a token is created that represents the trade for as long as that item is retained, and is given to the new owner of the traded thing in question.

And a quick little excellency:
The Finest Things in Life
The benefits offered by any masterwork item you use are improved by +1. Should the item have an effect applied that would replace the bonuses of a masterwork item while having the item itself continue being masterwork, +1 of the masterwork bonus it retained. Additionally any positive effects granted by any anything you eat or drink are improved by +1, and the effectiveness of any mundane services (e,g, servants, tailors, ) you hire/purchase are improved. Such improvements are represented by any skill checks that are required in the process gaining a +2 bonus and the time it would take is reduced by 25%.

Also, a brainwave I had for another mythos class whose idea I am just tossing out their for opinions sake (I will probably pick it up at some point is nobody uses it). The idea is a 'Mythic institution/Fortress/Genius Loci' sort of thing, possibly coming from the titan of duty or something? those of the class will start as paragons of their institution, who slowly merge with it and become a Genius Loci/embodiment of it. example characters wise, I'm thinking of Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean, the playable character from Dungeon Keeper, Rook from Demigod, and the like.

DracoDei

2016-03-16, 08:31 PM

Gleaming distraction should still allow them to see the coins, the terrain between them and the coins, and others trying to grab the coins IMHO.

ThreadNecro5

2016-03-17, 04:33 PM

Gleaming distraction should still allow them to see the coins, the terrain between them and the coins, and others trying to grab the coins IMHO.

Good point, I meant to word it so that they were treated as blinded, which was representing their single-minded seeking of the coins.

Later Edit:
I just finished the Background on the 'Mythic Mothing' idea of mine. Dubbed the Tipoparchi, named from a combination of the Greek works for nothing and exists, creating a double meaning that will foreshadow a pair of Shintais

The Titans were living stories, each defined itself by a legend of their own writing before being stuck into the cosmic foundation of existence. The Young One was not like this. It didn’t -couldn’t- define itself. In a fit of desperation one day, desperate to be something, tore itself open to pull something out. It failed. It kept going, tearing deeper and deeper inside until it ran out of more to tear free and so continued to wrench apart its hollowness thirsting for something to live by. One time when it again failed to pull something out, it did not fail. It found nothing. It was Nothing. The Nothing would have been born this instant if it existed.

In the primordial storm of chaos before law their was a space, more a precipice, where nothing happened. This void was the full stop at the end of the legend, the all consuming singularity that was ‘The end.’ that spread into one tale after another as more began and grew. In the end the final fate of the Young One who became Nothing was ever in question, was it consumed by the nothing within and undone?, or did it truly achene its one dream of becoming and mark its legend on the universe?

In mechanical terms the class will be on the passive side in the effects of its Mythos, and each will have an additional manifestation that may be taken at any point at the cost of taking on a limiting 'curse' of sorts, like a mini-Shintai (the idea behind these ideas is that nothing should be a passive thing generally, and each mythos represents giving something up).

Also I've wound up with yet another Mythos class idea, the 'Mythic Godslayer' of the titan of vengeance. In terms of example characters I'm thinking the Hunter from Bloodborne, Kratos form God of War, and Ghost Rider. Opinions?

Xefas

2016-03-23, 03:31 AM

khadgar567

2016-03-23, 04:44 AM

Looks like xefas's baby become a compleate setting of its own as for reviev looks good

Amechra

2016-03-23, 05:40 AM

I got the heads up for this a little while ago, and for some reason never posted it here.

Godbound (http://www.sinenomine-pub.com/) (kickstarter here (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/godbound-a-game-of-divine-heroes)) is a d20 game with a similar kind of mythical Exaltedesque-inspired 'Reach Heaven Through Violence And Punch God In The Face' kinda theme as my Mythos stuff. Not quite the same, but similar.

The creator has made a 'beta' pdf of the rules freely available (link (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcSUhNYkIwSjZGc00/view)), without any images and missing some layout stuff, but with pretty much the entire ruleset if you want to check it out.

At first glance, it looks to me like it still doesn't have everything I would want in a "Mythos RPG" of its very own, but I feel like simply lacking all of (3.x) D&D's baggage would make it a lot easier to realize some of the classes I've been having trouble creating.

So, check it out. I'm interested to know what y'all think. I'm going to take a second, more in depth look over it soon, and see if my initial impressions of things I liked/disliked hold up.

It's a lot more focused on playing God of a Thing than Resonant with a Mythic Structure.

For the latter, you want Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, where I'm reasonably sure I could assign each Mythos class to the existing Miraculous Arcs without any real effort.

Any of Them: Generically, a rank or two of Knave of Hearts or Become Somebody might feel appropriate. Go for it.
Anakitos: Ooh, funky. But they are pretty much just The Ace plus Creature of the Light.
Bellator: The Ace, pretty much. Dash some Self-Made on there to taste.
Jagannatha: Wounded Angel and either Called Away or A Keeper of Gardens, depending on whether you're focusing on "Prince of Hell" or "General of Demons".
Kathodos: Spiritual (The Four Elements) at low levels, Primordial (The Four Elements) at high levels.
Olethrofex: You're drawn a few directions with this one. I'd go with the safe bet and get Reality Syndrome, with your "cheat code" being killing. Add a sprinkle of Magical Hero based around some sort of necromancy skill and you're cooking with gas.
Syntrofos: Accursed and Sentimental look really appropriate here. The whole "I are a weapon" is an Affliction.
Teramach: Straight-up Indomitable based around Superior Rage-Filled Murder, Specialist based around Superior Rage-Filled Murder.

If I could remember where you have the banners for the other ones, I'd do those too.

I want to actually write up the Arc Abilities for the Teramach now. Especially the Specialist ones.

spwack

2016-03-23, 05:46 AM

Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?

khadgar567

2016-03-23, 05:49 AM

Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?

No need to learn xefas basicly made much better system than exalted

spwack

2016-03-23, 08:00 AM

Ok, a few things immediately stick out to me as excellent on a first skim. "When the Rules Don't Matter", "When Not to use Attribute Checks" (as well as Failed Checks), Fray Dice and Morale, to name a few. The first two and a bit are really important parts of every game, and I think these sections portray it quite well. I find games like Apocalypse World treat "failure", as more of "time for the DM to do something really cool", rather than "time for the players to do absolutely nothing" as DnD is wont to do.

Fray dice are just really clean and neat. Mythic characters, sorry, Godbound, are really dangerous to be around. I know that if my Teramach were to kill someone with Fray dice, they would just stare at the offending mortal until it had a heart attack. Speaking of Fray damage, a new Gift for the Alacrity/Sword Words:

QUANTUM EXECUTION CHARGE
On your turn, you can choose to forgo your Fray dice and instead place a Charge on a target you can see. 5 turns after this, each Charge detonates dealing your normal Fray damage, even if you couldn't normally apply this damage. If you invest Effort [daily? not sure], the first Charge on each target adds your STR in damage. Any enemy with fewer or equal hit dice to your level also takes this damage straight.

Morale is just something that works. I'll be using it. For bonus points, a player can make an appropriate check to add whichever ability they would like to the Morale roll, so long as they have the means necessary and take an action or two. Mythic characters are scary.

The Words of Power translate nicely (ha, get it?) into Mythic powers. Any Mythos that says "You can now do this" will convert really smoothly. Mythos says "You can now do this, but only by spending this resource, or doing it once per day", will be smooth likewise. Mythos that give a straight bonus to something that is solely a 3.5e thingy? Not so much. Either ignore it, or work it out with the DM.

Finally, the inside-out AC is interesting (literally just add everything, less than 20 is a miss), and having every saving throw and ability check written directly in front of each player all the time would speed up play nicely. The different damage types... eh... my first thought would be printing out dice that have the conversions pre-done, but because you add your relevant modifier... hurrumph. My one real nitpick. It works. It's just messy.

XEFAS CAN YOU DO A PLAYTEST OF THIS AND LET ME PLAY PLZ

nikkoli

2016-03-23, 11:32 AM

Where do you find the cross class mythos feats? I've seen people talk about them but cannot find them for the life of me.

Xefas

2016-03-23, 02:13 PM

It's a lot more focused on playing God of a Thing than Resonant with a Mythic Structure.

For the latter, you want Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, where I'm reasonably sure I could assign each Mythos class to the existing Miraculous Arcs without any real effort.

Any of Them: Generically, a rank or two of Knave of Hearts or Become Somebody might feel appropriate. Go for it.
Anakitos: Ooh, funky. But they are pretty much just The Ace plus Creature of the Light.
Bellator: The Ace, pretty much. Dash some Self-Made on there to taste.
Jagannatha: Wounded Angel and either Called Away or A Keeper of Gardens, depending on whether you're focusing on "Prince of Hell" or "General of Demons".
Kathodos: Spiritual (The Four Elements) at low levels, Primordial (The Four Elements) at high levels.
Olethrofex: You're drawn a few directions with this one. I'd go with the safe bet and get Reality Syndrome, with your "cheat code" being killing. Add a sprinkle of Magical Hero based around some sort of necromancy skill and you're cooking with gas.
Syntrofos: Accursed and Sentimental look really appropriate here. The whole "I are a weapon" is an Affliction.
Teramach: Straight-up Indomitable based around Superior Rage-Filled Murder, Specialist based around Superior Rage-Filled Murder.

If I could remember where you have the banners for the other ones, I'd do those too.

I want to actually write up the Arc Abilities for the Teramach now. Especially the Specialist ones.

Banners. (http://imgur.com/a/EPekI)

That's cool. I've had Chuubo's on my radar since the kickstarter but haven't really gotten into it. Maybe I shall.

XEFAS CAN YOU DO A PLAYTEST OF THIS AND LET ME PLAY PLZ

Maybe?

Where do you find the cross class mythos feats? I've seen people talk about them but cannot find them for the life of me.

Legends say that they were so powerful that their creator sealed them behind a wall of text (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447006-The-Mythos-Setting-Timeline) beyond which none dared venture.

ThreadNecro5

2016-03-23, 02:24 PM

Where do you find the cross class mythos feats? I've seen people talk about them but cannot find them for the life of me.

Go to the compendium, look at the bottom of the first post, and you should see a link marked 'Fluff on Titans'. Go to that page and the feats are in a spoiler box at the bottom of the first post.

Edit:
Ha! Ninjaed by the brains of the operation themself.

Amechra

2016-03-23, 05:02 PM

So I decided to do the Teramach thing:

(Superior) Rage-Filled Murder
0 - You get mad sometimes. Sometimes you lash out in anger. This is a thing you do.
1 - You have a mean streak the size of Kentucky. Sometimes, you stare at people so hard they have heart attacks.
2 - You don't have an anger management problem, your anger management problem has you. You can beat veteran warriors into the ground with your bare fists once you get going.
3 - You have literally surpassed the Rage Limit - anyone else that tries to get angrier than you is going to blow a vein. You could probably handle a small brigade by yourself if you got going.
4 - People tend to explode when you get your hands on them - the "danger zone" (as the radius of death around you is called) is approximately a mile or two.
5 - Angry. Angry enough to reach down the throat of someone's corpse, strangle the fact that they're dead, and then strangle them. Angry.

OK, that's a good starting point. What does Indomitable look like for the Teramach?

Indomitable
Your "Curse" is your boiling, never-ending anger. It seems to be working out pretty well for you.

Arc 0
You have the inherent ability to strike Paralyzing Fear into the hearts of people.

Arc 1
Keen (Sense) - That's right, any one sense gets the "make Superman look like he needs glasses" treatment.
Rage-Filled Murder Bonus - You get (Superior) Rage-Filled Murder as a free Skill at your Arc rating.

Arc 2
Inhuman Rage-Filled Murder - Mundane actions cannot oppose your ragemurder. You need a pretty serious Miracle to knock you out of the murderin' mood.
Tribulation - You get to spread the boiling, never-ending anger around! Sharing is caring!
Inconspicuous Form - You have some way of getting around in a form that isn't just a murder-blender. Like hell if you ever use it.

Arc 3
Purification - You can be so angry that it unbreaks people. You can murder their death.

Arc 4
Garden Perk - A world inside your soul is now yours for free!
Oh, and Paralyzing Fear and Tribulation can now be used on a city-wide scale.

Arc 5
Forge - You can take an object and give it a new destiny. Knowing you, it's probably going to be "killing that doofus over there", but this lets you to take a folding chair and use it to beat up God.

Now for a less straight-forward (but more hilarious) one:

Specialist

Arc 0
Initiate of a Hidden World - Your "world" is the truth that people are meat, buildings are splinters, and that the world exists to be destroyed. At Arc 1, you can open the minds of others to this truth.
Speciality - Shift one or two points into (Superior) Rage-Filled Murder, as well as another at Arc 2 and Arc 4, to a maximum of 5.

Arc 1
Understanding - Use this to automatically know all the relevant stuff for how do I anger-kill. Weapon locations, fragile parts of the body, that kind of thing.
Mind over Body - You are really, really tough, and have a nasty habit of growing more arms to murder more people with.
Basic Moves - Define the kind of stuff that anyone that buys into your Hidden World can do, like smell fear or gib people like they were made of plasticine. You can teach this stuff to people - probably through face-punching.

Arc 2
Plot Devices - You have secret murder moves; this makes damn well sure that you can kill stuff. As your Arc goes up, the number and variety of murder tricks you can pull off escalates.
Activate - Use your secret murder moves. Use them hard.
Implausible Skill - Let's you use (Superior) Rage-Filled Murder in ways orthogonal to actual, you know, murder. Like explaining to a small child that the reason why Santa didn't bring her presents is because Santa is made of meat. We're all made of meat.
Counter - Oh, someone thinks they're clever? Use your secret murder moves to counter their silly trick, and then kill them.

Arc 3
Epic Move - You can get a bonus on your rage-murder actions by describing how the thing you are trying to kill is hard to kill, so you have to kill it harder.
Wondrous - Make someone or something important. Like the corpse of the person you just tore apart with your bare hands.

Arc 4
Barrier Break - You make it so that working out an idea or emotion as guaranteed physical effects. So rage lets you solve all problems.
Conceptual Skills - Your murder is now a Miracle.

Arc 5
You get a stronger version of Activate that lets your Plot Devices do even more.

Xefas

2016-03-23, 05:07 PM

Since we are discussing alternative methods for playing Mythos, thoughts on learning Exalted 2e?

I suggest looking at Mythender if you like the really high end stuff. It's free. Just make sure you have a lot of dice. It seemed kinda silly to me at first, but there definitely is this satisfying weight to, first, describing your dude leaping a few thousand miles into the sky, ripping a star off the firmament of heaven, and then suplexing it down through the atmosphere as a burning comet of death and wiping out the small nation surrounding your target, and then upending a Crown Royal bag with forty+ dice in it onto the table while shouting "EAT MY THUNDER, *****" - that you just don't get with a single d20 or four Fate dice.

I've considered writing a little supplement for playing the Lawgivers during their war with the Titans.

So I decided to do the Teramach thing:

Neat.

edit: Hopefully I'll have more to say once I get to reading this behemoth (almost 600 pages?) of a book.

spwack

2016-03-23, 07:03 PM

Amechra

2016-03-23, 07:18 PM

Reading the review of Chuubo's... Hm, yep, yep, uh huh. Pastoral slice-of-life, you say?

This synergises horribly well with that 'teenage-inheritors-of-mythic-corpse-juice' that came up a whole ago. Was this what you were thinking of? Or was it using the system to play Mythos straight? I have no idea how the latter would turn out, but I'd love to watch!

You can do both.

The game does this series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3e2GwpZ7ug) just as well as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9CXmEUwvgM).

The best summation of the latter that I can think of is:

"Who's there?"
"It's the alien and I merged into the perfect being! Don't you feel comforted?"

"I'm software! And I'm corporeal. And I'm God."
"No, I'm God."
"Actually, God's God, dumbass."

spwack

2016-03-23, 11:22 PM

spwack

2016-03-24, 03:33 AM

Double post but whatever. New Word for Godbound, useful for Teramach and Jagannatha mostly. The names of the gifts are Teramach Mythos, but who really cares. Hit things. Hit them hard. I won't be overlapping with Might and Endurance, because what Teramach isn't going to be taking both of those?

RAGE

[insert fluff about being really angry here]

Passive: A Godbound of the Word of Rage does not block or dodge the attacks of those that would see them dead. Rather, they merely endure the wounds inflicted upon them, inhumanly continuing their rampage even as they are slashed to ribbons or, especially at higher levels, perhaps their skin, hardened by the countless scars of past battles, merely shrugs aside the blades and arrows of those that come to slay them. They can modify their AC by their Strength, rather than their Dexterity if they so choose.

Lesser Gifts

Retribution Will Follow - Constant (Whenever a lesser enemy strikes the Godbound, they take Fray damage. Whenever a worthy foe strikes the Godbound, the Godbound may immediately make an attack, but only once per round)

Post Traumatic Brutality Roar - Constant (Whenever the Godbound specifically causes an enemy to make a Morale roll and fails, the enemy must make a Spirit save. On a failed save, worthy foes have their morale permanently reduced by 1d4, and lesser enemies by 3d4. If this would cause the to Morale score to fall below 2, the enemy is permanently reduced to a gibbering wreck.)

World-Breaker Grip - Action (Commit Effort when the Godbound is grappling an enemy. You may now use the enemy as a weapon dealing damage appropriate for their size. The enemy you are holding also takes half the damage you are dealing. If you would kill a "weapon" you are holding, each successive attack reduces the damage die size by 1)

[WIP, 3 remaining]

Greater Gifts

Humanity-Reaving Psychosis Echo - Constant (As Post Traumatic Brutality Roar. If you reduce a Morale score to below 2, the enemy may choose instead to increase their Morale score to 12 and become a Reaver under your... Command? Maybe. If you Commit Effort for the day, you may increase a single Morale check to 3d6, rather than 2d6)

Body of Samsara's Supernal Monster - Action (Commit Effort when you cannot see any allies. You increase in size by ten times, gain a +1 to your STR modifier and treat straight damage as normal damage. If you see an ally, you must make a Spirit save or lose the use of this Gift for 5 turns)

Untamed Apocalypse Shintai - Constant (You must always be moving towards the nearest living blah blah blah. You know how this goes. Whenever you kill an enemy, gain 1HP. This is capped at your level+STR modifier per round against lesser foes.)

That'll do for now I guess.

Zale

2016-03-24, 05:10 AM

Serial Experiment Lain... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time.

But seriously though, I'm broke and I haven't uh, "found" any rule sets of Chuubo. Any quick summaries of the core mechanics that might make this seem like a better fit for Mythos? I must say though, if one game can run Utena, Lain, Mythos and slice-of-life, that's got some serious clout behind it.

Basically, Chuubo is a diceless system that uses a lot of heavily player defined skills and abilities. It's in many ways an outgrowth of Jenna Moran's Nobilis; has several nods to it. (Incidentally, those interested in that might glance at Jenna's Tumblr (http://jennamoran.tumblr.com/), where she's putting the Paetron funded arcs.)

Instead of having attributes or carefully defined skills like in D&D, the player defines a number of skills (Which can function anywhere between attributes to skill-sets to philosophies).

I like it because it's totally possible to make a character with Crushing My Enemies Beneath My Heels as a major character skill. Or someone with Love or Not Being There When Trouble Starts.

Xefas

2016-03-24, 04:35 PM

Chuubo's does look pretty interesting, although having never played a diceless game before (that is to say, a randomized conflict resolution mechanicless game - I've had fun with cards and, in the case of Pilgrims of the Flying Temple, drawing tokens out of a bag), I do have some degree of apprehension. I like the XP systems, which remind me of The Shadow of Yesterday (/Marvel Heroic) style Keys. And while I've had trouble with character-specific open-ended skill definitions at the table before (which seems a staple in plenty of rules-light RPGs, which I'm not convinced Chuubo's is; I particularly liked it in the Romance Comedy/Drama game Blazing Rose), I've also had them work out, and I'm willing to give Chuubo's the benefit of the doubt and expect it to handle them well.

All in all, it's something I'd like to play. And I feel as if it's unique enough that I must reserve any judgment of substance until then.

ThreadNecro5

2016-04-06, 02:15 PM

As its been a while since I have written some mythos, but have been collecting ideas for some, is there any ideas anyone would like to put forward/would like to see the Chrimatia do? might as well ask the people most likely to see the class, and thus most likely to play it.

DracoDei

2016-04-14, 09:22 AM

Remind me what the Chrimatia is all about?

Allnightmask

2016-04-14, 03:50 PM

The mythic hoarder if I remember correctly

DracoDei

2016-04-14, 05:53 PM

Taking my cues from fiction:

Scrooge McDuck - Your treasure never counts as difficult terrain for you, and you can move between it as long as their is space for it to move around you... I'm is saying it in a way that isn't precise enough for mechanical rules, but what I'm going for is you should be able to swim in your money like he does. Of course, even in copper it couldn't enough space for it to usually matter, but at least you can stand on top of a mound of coins and not have them shift under your feet like they do under others.

Rarity -
1.) Detect Valuables instead of HD/spell level base it on an exponential scale of value, and have Appraise rolls to determine the types of each thing detected al la rolling Spellcraft with Detect Magic.

2.)This is more about "greed" than "hoarding", but... this would be the equivalent of "Rageless Teramach". You remove the core concept of the class, and yet have something functional. Rarity is very greedy, but also very generous.

Filthy Rich (Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sheep)
Fly on a pile of your wealth with a certain volume and value, and shoot small valuable objects at your enemies: I'd have it be the normal damage type for the object, but make sure you can tag Magic, Alignments (ones you actually have), and materials (using gold, platinum, or gems to do silver's combat role should be especially trivial). Naturally the projectiles are never damaged by this and vanish back into your hoard after they hit.

Slightly more generic ideas:
1.) Animate your wealth to defend itself. See Astral Constructs for a starting place?

2.) The ability to look at someone and tell the net worth of everything they own (NOT just what they are carrying).

3.) "LoJack" to find things taken from you. Perhaps have it work like the Track feat, with Appraise rolls instead of Survival? Or maybe just Spot if that is on their class list?
.
.
.
Not saying that any of these would make me want to play the class, but they would fit with the themes I guess?

Durazno

2016-04-14, 06:51 PM

Maybe mythic hoarders could have an ability that transmutes their mineral wealth between different equivalent forms. It would seem like a simple bookkeeping/flavor trick until the mythic hoarder is facing an opponent in a constrained space, and they hold out a 25,000gp gem that explodes into a sea of copper pieces. The arena becomes a shifting, cramped nightmare for their opponent, but they can swim through with ease and strike at will.

I mean, that's super niche, of course, but it would still allow you to create patches of rough terrain and fill spaces if you need to, to say nothing of condensing chests full of coins into small adamantine ingots.

Jakman217

2016-04-15, 10:00 PM

I'm not sure if someone already said a similar idea but...

Bleeding Wealth

Your body and your wealth start becoming one.

Any time you take damage you may lose wealth to negate it immediately. You pay [insert value here]/hp lost, and negate the damage immediately. This is a free action.

Potential Manifestations (in no particular order):

Body of Gold: You may spend [insert value here] to negate ability score damage.

Adamant resilience: You may spend [Insert value here] to negate ability score drain. requires Body of gold.

Diamonds are forever: You may spend [insert value here] to negate negative levels.

Purity of Silver: You may spend [insert values here] to negate status effects. [insert list for exact prices per ailment].

As an aside, please take a look at my mythic Leader, I've been needing some second oppinions of it and simply haven't gotten any. Any help would be nice. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477620-3-5-Base-Class-quot-A-King-without-an-Army-is-just-a-Man-in-a-Funny-Hat-quot&p=20393725#post20393725

ThreadNecro5

2016-04-16, 04:14 PM

Thank you to all who have offered advice, as for what the class is, it is based around greed and manipulating and building their wealth besides otherwise owning things.

Taking my cues from fiction:

Scrooge McDuck - Your treasure never counts as difficult terrain for you, and you can move between it as long as their is space for it to move around you... I'm is saying it in a way that isn't precise enough for mechanical rules, but what I'm going for is you should be able to swim in your money like he does. Of course, even in copper it couldn't enough space for it to usually matter, but at least you can stand on top of a mound of coins and not have them shift under your feet like they do under others.?

Nice idea, I could expand it a bit to also effect other peoples valuables and prevent any environmental hazards inherent to traversing the treasure, that way you could swim in molten gold and the like (I've read of a GM using a lake of it before). Still a bit niche but more likely to see use. I was planning something involving bathing in gold anyway, so that covers a Manifestation.

1.) Detect Valuables instead of HD/spell level base it on an exponential scale of value, and have Appraise rolls to determine the types of each thing detected al la rolling Spellcraft with Detect Magic.?

I already have something like this, but the idea of rolling appraise to better determine what you detect is a good idea, will include that.

2.)This is more about "greed" than "hoarding", but... this would be the equivalent of "Rageless Teramach". You remove the core concept of the class, and yet have something functional. Rarity is very greedy, but also very generous.?

Filthy Rich (Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sheep)
Fly on a pile of your wealth with a certain volume and value, and shoot small valuable objects at your enemies: I'd have it be the normal damage type for the object, but make sure you can tag Magic, Alignments (ones you actually have), and materials (using gold, platinum, or gems to do silver's combat role should be especially trivial). Naturally the projectiles are never damaged by this and vanish back into your hoard after they hit.?

Interesting. This could build into my Shintai idea.

Slightly more generic ideas:
1.) Animate your wealth to defend itself. See Astral Constructs for a starting place??

I have something like this as well, turning people to gold and animating them (think of the Sapphire Dragon from Showlin Showdown). With the prior mythos idea you gave, I'm thinking on having that mythos give them a fly speed.

2.) The ability to look at someone and tell the net worth of everything they own (NOT just what they are carrying).?

Why did I not already think of this? simple enough excellency to include, and the fact the total value of a being possessions actually comes up in one mythos seems useful to include.

3.) "LoJack" to find things taken from you. Perhaps have it work like the Track feat, with Appraise rolls instead of Survival? Or maybe just Spot if that is on their class list?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'LoJack' but I can work this into the 'turn things to gold' mythos as it also curses those who steal from you, maybe include in a manifestation.

Durazno

Maybe mythic hoarders could have an ability that transmutes their mineral wealth between different equivalent forms. It would seem like a simple bookkeeping/flavor trick until the mythic hoarder is facing an opponent in a constrained space, and they hold out a 25,000gp gem that explodes into a sea of copper pieces. The arena becomes a shifting, cramped nightmare for their opponent, but they can swim through with ease and strike at will.

I mean, that's super niche, of course, but it would still allow you to create patches of rough terrain and fill spaces if you need to, to say nothing of condensing chests full of coins into small adamantine ingots.

Seems fun to play around with and simple to include, also synergises with one of DracoDei's ideas.

Jakman217

I'm not sure if someone already said a similar idea but...

Bleeding Wealth

Your body and your wealth start becoming one.

Any time you take damage you may lose wealth to negate it immediately. You pay [insert value here]/hp lost, and negate the damage immediately. This is a free action.

Potential Manifestations (in no particular order):

Body of Gold: You may spend [insert value here] to negate ability score damage.

Adamant resilience: You may spend [Insert value here] to negate ability score drain. requires Body of gold.

Diamonds are forever: You may spend [insert value here] to negate negative levels.

Purity of Silver: You may spend [insert values here] to negate status effects. [insert list for exact prices per ailment].

As an aside, please take a look at my mythic Leader, I've been needing some second opinions of it and simply haven't gotten any. Any help would be nice.

Strangely enough I pretty much already have this as a mythos. I like your way of fluffing it however so I will include that and possibly one of the manifestations. as for your class, I've been meaning to give that another look, I gave it a look a while back and decided to wait for it to develop a bit more. is its thread still ok for replying to or should I leave my opinions here?

Jakman217

2016-04-16, 04:17 PM

Yes it should be good to comment on that thread. It's a bit old, but not that old. Plus I update it ever here and there to add or correct things.

DracoDei

2016-04-18, 05:17 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by 'LoJack' but I can work this into the 'turn things to gold' mythos as it also curses those who steal from you, maybe include in a manifestation.
LoJack is a trademarked system (that probably has competitors that go by other names, although it may have been the first) that installs in a car. The name is in contrast to HIjack. Basically, if your car is stolen there is a way to activate a tracking beacon that either sends out the GPS coordinates continually, or is just a signal that the police can lock onto somehow.

...I may be getting some of that wrong, but if you need more precise information, you can Google it.

Rather than giving direction and distance (at least without a sequel Excellency/A specific manifestation/knowing Mhythos of a higher degree/whatever), I thought basing it on the Track skill would be a better place to start. More fun to play that way I think?

Lanth Sor

2016-04-19, 07:05 PM

Still WIP just posting because work ended.
The Martyr

The last eons of the Guardian bore heavy on its being. In the end it recognized it could not protect all from the ravages of the universe. No matter how may it saved there was some who would inevitably fall. It entered a deep brewed for many eons preforming its self appointed duty with a almost zealous fervor. Until it finally fell upon an idea to use its might to remove its charges from threat until the threat no longer existed. Gathering the poor beings that called it to existence in at its start it then purified them from existence in a type of stasis until the threat of titian law bringer war was over. This act took a visualization of a great light flowing throughout existence affecting all the lesser entities not destined to be or be apart of a Titan or Law Bringer. Though the Guardian was gone its legacy remained as a notion.

As the radiant expulsion of energies simultaneously removed a group form existence it left one behind to tell the tale, the Martyr. The Martyr was born to the universe the last remnant of the Guardians greatness. But tales would garner and lead to greater fables until a Titan was born. Calling to its heel sacrifice for the good of others. As the woes of the Titans grew the Martyr learned new ways to give. Wounds that bleed taken unto it's own. Fatigue that would weaken wiped away.

Standing in the fields of war the Martyr tended to the Titan, Unity. Transposition of notions, healing the vast cavities in Unity's form. The sun bore spear and light, looking down on his foe he balked at the Martyr's weak form. Though crowded with ideals none carried great strength. Though guided by stories of heroism, none bore arms. Though bathed in the radiant light of the Sun, the Martyr minded not, and tended to his charge. Curious but unconcerned with things that could be stamped out by lesser Law Bringer. The Sun made stride for its target.

The Martyr recognized the aggressive pose and lent some of its

DracoDei

2016-04-19, 08:42 PM

Still WIP just posting because work ended.
The Martyr

As the radiant expulsion of energies simultaneously removed a group form existence it left one behind to tell the tale, the Martyr. The Martyr was born to the universe the last remnant of the Guardians greatness. But tales would garner and lead to greater fables until a Titan was born. Calling to its heel sacrifice for the good of others. As the woes of the Titans grew the Martyr learned new ways to give. Wounds that bleed taken unto it's own. Fatigue that would weaken wiped away.

Standing in the fields of war the Martyr tended to the Titan, Unity. Transposition of notions, healing the vast cavities in Unity's form. The sun bore spear and light, looking down on his foe he balked at the Martyr's weak form. Though crowded with ideals none carried great strength. Though guided by stories of heroism, none bore arms. Though bathed in the radiant light of the Sun, the Martyr minded not, and tended to his charge. Curious but unconcerned with things that could be stamped out by lesser Law Bringer
1.) THANK YOU!

2.) Is the idea that The Martyr survived... something? "radiant expulsion of energies"? Was that when the world started to be stitched together, and The Martyr was still fully alive and whole at the time, but chose willingly to join the fate of its fallen brethren?

3.) Looks good so far?

A few notes on mechanical facts that might influence flavor:
1.) Most of the Mythos and Excellencies are preventative, rather than curative. You sacrifice your defense to grant that same defense to another. The curative stuff is actually static class features. Just keep that in mind when describing the scene with Sun, Unity, and Martyr.
2.) There IS a Mythos chain that that I THINK a lot of people are going to take because the instinct for most players is to have SOME sort of offense. It is based around AoOs... so keep that in mind flavor-wise. There is another single mythos for Disarms and Sunders... still anything we can do to make people consider more options is probably good, so having those sorts of things not feature prominently in the lore could be good.

Everyone:
One tricky question a GM may run into when starting a mid- to high- level campaign is how much extra XPs to give a starting Phileotheysia compared to his compatriots. Extra XPs you say? Yes. With the caveat that they can only be used for purchasing Phileotheysia Mythos, Manifestations, and Excellencies. These represent the XPs that would normally be lost to revivification by means such as Raise Dead and Ressurrection. As manifestations of the Martyr, Phileotheysia bounce back from death only more determined.

So given a starting ECL and perhaps a "lethality class" for the campaign, what would people suggest as my suggestion to the GM on that issue?

Jakman217

2016-04-19, 09:15 PM

Still WIP just posting because work ended.
The Martyr [snip]

With the Martyr I kind of hit a bit of an uncomfortable feeling of overlap with the Agios, but with the right direction this should be nothing more than a substandard pet peeve that should be ignored.

Everyone:
One tricky question a GM may run into when starting a mid- to high- level campaign is how much extra XPs to give a starting Phileotheysia compared to his compatriots. Extra XPs you say? Yes. With the caveat that they can only be used for purchasing Phileotheysia Mythos, Manifestations, and Excellencies. These represent the XPs that would normally be lost to revivification by means such as Raise Dead and Ressurrection. As manifestations of the Martyr, Phileotheysia bounce back from death only more determined.

So given a starting ECL and perhaps a "lethality class" for the campaign, what would people suggest as my suggestion to the GM on that issue?

I find the extra xp a highly questionable proposition. I'd honestly like a tiny bit more detail before I begin digging my own grave here. When the extra xp is earned, and how often you expect the character to die ordinarily are probably good questions to ask here. They do highly alter how I can look at this.

Sidenote: open to everyone, please do take a look at my Mythic Leader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477620-3-5-Base-Class-quot-A-King-without-an-Army-is-just-a-Man-in-a-Funny-Hat-quot&p=20393725#post20393725). It is just short of done and just needs some extra input to finish it up. Please.

DracoDei

2016-04-19, 09:31 PM

With the Martyr I kind of hit a bit of an uncomfortable feeling of overlap with the Agios, but with the right direction this should be nothing more than a substandard pet peeve that should be ignored.
I think I looked at the Agios at one time and thought that it wasn't too much overlap? I should maybe double-check...
Or did you just mean the fluff that Lanth Sor is so kindly writing for me?

I find the extra xp a highly questionable proposition. I'd honestly like a tiny bit more detail before I begin digging my own grave here. When the extra xp is earned, and how often you expect the character to die ordinarily are probably good questions to ask here. They do highly alter how I can look at this.
Err...
Yeah, apparently I wasn't very clear at all...
Okay, how to say this...
First off, the mechanic:
In addition, if the phileotheysia dies selflessly protecting their comrades or cause* and is returned to intelligent animation (most usually life) by a means that cause them to end up with a lower XP total than when they died, the lost XPs are instead retained as a separate pool that may only be used for purchasing mythos, manifestations, and excellencies of the phileotheysia class. Points from this pool may also be converted into mythos points at any time at a ratio of 1 XP to 5 mythos points, although the reverse is NOT possible.
*Most “standard” adventuring deaths will qualify, even getting killed by a trap that someone else set off by accident since the default assumption was that the Phileotheysia wouldn’t even have been around unless it was for the purposes described.

[/mechanic]

If you start playing a Phileotheysia at or before the party has access to Raise Dead*, and play them straight through, then the "extra XP" is never just handed to you by the GM and the GM doesn't need to make any decisions (unless he is going to invoke Rule 0).
Any level higher than that? The question then becomes: "How many times (if any) did this character probably die on his way to this level, and what levels were those deaths at on average (Not counting any levels that they had access to True Resurrection*)?" From that, you can figure out how much the second pool starts with during character creation. Or at least if you want to "play fair" with it rather than giving less than that.
*Or the equivalent from other systems than clerical magic that can return life to a character.

Sidenote: open to everyone, please do take a look at my Mythic Leader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477620-3-5-Base-Class-quot-A-King-without-an-Army-is-just-a-Man-in-a-Funny-Hat-quot&p=20393725#post20393725). It is just short of done and just needs some extra input to finish it up. Please.
I'll see what I can do, but I don't promise anything... I have BIG energy issues.

Jakman217

2016-04-19, 10:30 PM

I think I looked at the Agios at one time and thought that it wasn't too much overlap? I should maybe double-check...
Or did you just mean the fluff that Lanth Sor is so kindly writing for me?

It may just be his style coming through for me, he did write the Agios as it were. Though a peek at the agios gives the vibe that it's much more focused on defense than martyrdom. So if the phileotheysia keeps a lot closer to martyr than guardian, it should be fine.

Err...
Yeah, apparently I wasn't very clear at all...
Okay, how to say this...
First off, the mechanic:
In addition, if the phileotheysia dies selflessly protecting their comrades or cause* and is returned to intelligent animation (most usually life) by a means that cause them to end up with a lower XP total than when they died, the lost XPs are instead retained as a separate pool that may only be used for purchasing mythos, manifestations, and excellencies of the phileotheysia class. Points from this pool may also be converted into mythos points at any time at a ratio of 1 XP to 5 mythos points, although the reverse is NOT possible.
*Most “standard” adventuring deaths will qualify, even getting killed by a trap that someone else set off by accident since the default assumption was that the Phileotheysia wouldn’t even have been around unless it was for the purposes described.

[/mechanic]

This looks fine to me, though I worry about the XP to MP being 1:5. (I understand the logic based off of 1xp:5gp) At that rate it takes 1.8 times the xp (1,000mp/5+250xp=450xp) to pay for a exceptional mythos and about 3 times the xp requirement to pay for a mythos above that (5,000mp/5+500xp=1,500xp and so on). If you think those ratio's are fair then there's not much to say. I'd worry that it would basically let someone at level 10 or higher to die once then buy most if not all the exceptional mythos, maybe even higher tier mythos as well, but I'd have to see more to prove or disprove this worry. While a class that can easily take a number of deaths and keep rolling is fine, rewarding suicide tactics worry me.

If you start playing a Phileotheysia at or before the party has access to Raise Dead*, and play them straight through, then the "extra XP" is never just handed to you by the GM and the GM doesn't need to make any decisions (unless he is going to invoke Rule 0).
Any level higher than that? The question then becomes: "How many times (if any) did this character probably die on his way to this level, and what levels were those deaths at on average (Not counting any levels that they had access to True Resurrection*)?" From that, you can figure out how much the second pool starts with during character creation. Or at least if you want to "play fair" with it rather than giving less than that.
*Or the equivalent from other systems than clerical magic that can return life to a character.

My first, boring suggestion is to not allow it, skipping the problem in the first place. My second suggestion would be to have the players denote what levels they 'died' at and calculate from there, since raw bonus xp only rarely keeps balance. 3rd would be to require that they work from the lowest level up, or more likely the highest level down, to keep them from abusing the xp to mp conversion at minimal level cost.

I'll see what I can do, but I don't promise anything... I have BIG energy issues.

It was meant for everyone, not just you, as I've been sitting on it for a while now with no responses and just really want some extra opinions on it.

DracoDei

2016-04-19, 11:45 PM

It may just be his style coming through for me, he did write the Agios as it were. Though a peek at the agios gives the vibe that it's much more focused on defense than martyrdom. So if the phileotheysia keeps a lot closer to martyr than guardian, it should be fine.
Well it is "guardian via martyrdom" a lot, but if you take the Mythos that lets you spend a full round action to give an ally an extra standard action, or the one to take the weight of gravity in the stead of someone (starts small, then scales up to Fly at level 5+), those aren't exactly purely defensive buffs...

This looks fine to me, though I worry about the XP to MP being 1:5. (I understand the logic based off of 1xp:5gp) At that rate it takes 1.8 times the xp (1,000mp/5+250xp=450xp) to pay for a exceptional mythos and about 3 times the xp requirement to pay for a mythos above that (5,000mp/5+500xp=1,500xp and so on). If you think those ratio's are fair then there's not much to say. I'd worry that it would basically let someone at level 10 or higher to die once then buy most if not all the exceptional mythos,
Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

Also, this may not matter so much but... you can sink a really large number of XPs+MPs into manifestations and excellencies... of course, Excellencies have a geometrically increasing cost, but with 31 to choose from many people will find some options to tempt them. As for mythos, one of the Exceptionals* has 6 basic manifestations and about 7 advanced, and others** have manifestations that can be purchased multiple times (to double->triple->quadruple the range for instance). It is actually at the higher level of mythos where things start getting tighter.
*Defensive Strike the one that beefs up your AoOs.
**Carry the Burden is one example (actually has three multi-purchasable I think, one for range, and one for increasing the number of targets, and one for reducing the amount of weight you actually take on compared to the weight of your targets and everything they are carrying).

If bonus XPs are not awarded for character generation, and probably even if they are, starting a level back from the rest of the party to buy up more options should be an option worth considering.

maybe even higher tier mythos as well, but I'd have to see more to prove or disprove this worry. While a class that can easily take a number of deaths and keep rolling is fine, rewarding suicide tactics worry me.
Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

I don't really have a sense for considering what you are asking me to consider. I just wanted a Phileotheysia to not have to worry TOO much about being glutted with extra XPs in that pool, but not have the goods to generate the Mythos points to combine with that... especially RIGHT after being returned to life. For that "came back strong" feel.

What would you say to a strong suggestion that if they give the bonus XPs it should come with the rule "You can't convert XP from that pool into Mythos Points, and it is 'Use it or Lose it' on the XPs in the pool that you start the game with."?

My first, boring suggestion is to not allow it, skipping the problem in the first place.

And I'm sure a lot of GMs would take that route... it isn't what I would personally do, but I could definitely see it being a popular option.

My second suggestion would be to have the players denote what levels they 'died' at and calculate from there, since raw bonus xp only rarely keeps balance.
There would be little or no reason to have died that way... the entire point here is to make it so that a character who is generated at, say, level 15, approximately as powerful as one that was played all the way from 1 to 15. The second one probably died as many times as the rest of the party (well, possibly more, but that "more" would come out of the their "official posted starting XPs" that every character gets... which would be another, somewhat separate matter to cover), and thus by the time they all arrive at level 15, the Phileotheysia has, in effect, more XPs.

To put it another way, a character at high levels has EARNED more XPs than they HAVE... unless they didn't die at all, or they are a Phileotheysia (sorta...).

3rd would be to require that they work from the lowest level up, or more likely the highest level down, to keep them from abusing the xp to mp conversion at minimal level cost.
Converting XPs to GP (which, at the end of the day are what MP are) is generally considered a bad idea by optimizers I think? And at what level it happens only effects how many bonus XPs you gain. Assuming you died at higher levels would mean that you start at the same level as everyone else, but with more XPs in the secondary pool.

Perhaps if you HAVE to assume they died more, and thus generally start a level behind, but they DO get more XPs at game start than the rest of the party?

It was meant for everyone, not just you, as I've been sitting on it for a while now with no responses and just really want some extra opinions on it.
I knew that. I just know that this is the second time you have asked... maybe if you posted in that thread what your areas of greatest concern are?

Jakman217

2016-04-20, 12:55 AM

Well [sinp]

I think it'll be fine. The current ideas are not so overlapping that I'd worry about it.

Also, this may not matter so much but... you can sink a really large number of XPs+MPs into manifestations and excellencies... of course, Excellencies have a geometrically increasing cost, but with 31 to choose from many people will find some options to tempt them. As for mythos, one of the Exceptionals* has 6 basic manifestations and about 7 advanced, and others** have manifestations that can be purchased multiple times (to double->triple->quadruple the range for instance). It is actually at the higher level of mythos where things start getting tighter.
*Defensive Strike the one that beefs up your AoOs.
**Carry the Burden is one example (actually has three multi-purchasable I think, one for range, and one for increasing the number of targets, and one for reducing the amount of weight you actually take on compared to the weight of your targets and everything they are carrying).

If bonus XPs are not awarded for character generation, and probably even if they are, starting a level back from the rest of the party to buy up more options should be an option worth considering.

I'm not against letting them trade levels for more options, since to an extent everyone has that ability, but they have a far more efficient, and far cheaper, way of doing it. Character Creation at higher levels pretty much takes the assumption that you never lost any money and (martyrs excluded) never died and runs with it. Hence unless you put a price on extra xp and backstory deaths, they effectively get richer from doing it and have a much easier time getting extra mythos.

Dying during actual play is never to your advantage (but it might not be to your long-term detriment either)... well, except for the conversion to MP rule, but I had in mind that that wouldn't come up very often.

I don't really have a sense for considering what you are asking me to consider. I just wanted a Phileotheysia to not have to worry TOO much about being glutted with extra XPs in that pool, but not have the goods to generate the Mythos points to combine with that... especially RIGHT after being returned to life. For that "came back strong" feel.

If you lost your gold every time you died I could easily understand where you're coming from, but 9 times out of 10, the rest of the party is going to pick over your corpse and grab your stuff. At worst you lose the value of being brought back from the dead. Plus, if your character is a martyr who's expected to die, then the likelyhood of them finishing the fight without you is much higher, making it more likely you'll get your stuff back. Plus if you make your death worth it, suddenly, paying the 5,000 gp to revive someone who doesn't lose xp is far more profitable.

What would you say to a strong suggestion that if they give the bonus XPs it should come with the rule "You can't convert XP from that pool into Mythos Points, and it is 'Use it or Lose it' on the XPs in the pool that you start the game with."?

I would say the use it or lose it with a no conversion would solve the problem. It does feel a bit like a punishment doing it that way though, but I can't think of a better way to keep it from being abused at creation. Plus, if you use this mechanism, they may as well not have backstory deaths and pay the ordinary way.

There would be little or no reason to have died that way... the entire point here is to make it so that a character who is generated at, say, level 15, approximately as powerful as one that was played all the way from 1 to 15. The second one probably died as many times as the rest of the party (well, possibly more, but that "more" would come out of the their "official posted starting XPs" that every character gets... which would be another, somewhat separate matter to cover), and thus by the time they all arrive at level 15, the Phileotheysia has, in effect, more XPs.

To put it another way, a character at high levels has EARNED more XPs than they HAVE... unless they didn't die at all, or they are a Phileotheysia (sorta...).

I think it's a bit odd to believe that a character who isn't a martyr would put a death into their backstory. Most people probably wouldn't put any deaths in their backstory. So all that really matters is how many deaths has the Phileotheysia had. The only exception to this rule I can think of are unusual players who often add deaths to their backstory, and a player joining mid-campaign, a massive mess if the group does not have always equal xp value (deaths included).

Converting XPs to GP (which, at the end of the day are what MP are) is generally considered a bad idea by optimizers I think? And at what level it happens only effects how many bonus XPs you gain. Assuming you died at higher levels would mean that you start at the same level as everyone else, but with more XPs in the secondary pool.

This is true when trying to buy magic items who's price increases exponentially, hence making xp->gp far inferior. But the rate for mythos features is linear, or for excellencies geometric. It may not be perfect, but the point at which converting stops being efficient is much further down the line.

Perhaps if you HAVE to assume they died more, and thus generally start a level behind, but they DO get more XPs at game start than the rest of the party?

Following up on the first part of this, assuming that your other party members have died at all is giving them more credit than they deserve. If everyone has the same xp in the party, then there's no reason for the phileothysia to get more. At best they are guaranteed to have either the highest xp or equivalent to the highest, and at that point it's up to the player as to when they died.

Jakman217

2016-04-20, 04:08 AM

So, to make my questions for the Megaligeti more known.

Quick Summary. It's a mythic leader, based around 5 branches of roughly equal importance:

Paragon, AKA I want to be a better on my own.
Commander, Let's be a bard or more accurately a better marshal to my friends.
Diplomat, Let's do stuff out of combat!
Manipulator, "Honestly I wanted to play Zero from Code Geass" the branch. And
Autocrat, Do What I Tell You!

Between these are balanced the abilities of the class. You can pick and chose from the branches to play what you want without demanding anything other than leading.

So, the first real question is asking for some help on the excellencies. Currently, it's kind of hit and miss with some like Bottomless Hunger for Pleasure, being among my more favorite abilities. However, I'm just having trouble thinking of more mythos. With 2 open excellencies in Commander, Diplomat, and Manipulator, as well as an Autocrat I need more ideas to fill out these abilities.
On top of that is my least favorite Excellencies is Ever Vigilant Watcher which is just a free feat and cha to initiative, super thin, rather boring and bland honestly.

Next is the bottom of the barrel hit with the exalted mythos, there is no Commander or Manipulator mythos and I'm just having trouble thinking of things for them.

Lastly is (what I think is) the general suck of the Diplomat line. It's feels like a bunch of thinly defined abilities that just don't really work for ordinary games. First with the contract abilities which are rather meh, then with the 'gambit game' later on. Throw on a better made, but rather derivative mythos that may as well be Fear-of-the-Divine Producing Stare part 1.5 (there's already a full part 2 for it).

So, to wrap up my long questions for you guys, I need only a few more ideas, a few rehashes and fixes to make things better and more interesting, and a general balance check to make sure I didn't over or under-power it.

The class in more detail is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477620-3-5-Base-Class-quot-A-King-without-an-Army-is-just-a-Man-in-a-Funny-Hat-quot&p=20393728#post20393728) and, again, any real comments or discussion should probably take place over there where it can be more focused.

DracoDei

2016-04-21, 04:18 PM

I'm not against letting them trade levels for more options, since to an extent everyone has that ability, but they have a far more efficient, and far cheaper, way of doing it. Character Creation at higher levels pretty much takes the assumption that you never lost any money and (martyrs excluded) never died and runs with it.
What in the world of INSANITY is THIS utter garbage?

Honest questions: Is it just some sort of simplifying assumption? If so, what does it simplify? Why SHOULDN'T, for instance, WBL represent what you have left after a reasonable number of revivifications*, replacement for sundered/disenchanted/stolen/looted from your body before it could be recovered/destroyed on natural 1 on a saving throw after it failed its save too?!
*With MAYBE some error margin for campaigns that vary significantly from the "default assumed lethality".

And how could one know that it DOESN'T include that sort of thing? I'm nearly certain that it is intended to include allowances for expended limited use items (potions, scrolls, wand and staff charges, etc).

As for XPs, other than this specific class (or other equally oddball and RARE cases), why would how many times you have died on your way to a given XP total even matter, and thus how could their be any meaningful pre-existing assumption on that particular question before now?

EDIT: I'm making a note in the GoogleDoc to scale or limit this class feature according to proportion of Phileotheysia levels... wouldn't want people dipping the class in super-high "revolving door afterlife" campaigns just for that... although the fact that you can only spend those XPs on Phileotheysia features is a big limiter... oh, and because of generic limits on Mythos classes that means that you need at least half your levels in Phileotheysia in order to be able to spend those XPs anyway. Is that enough to cover it?

Jakman217

2016-04-21, 09:08 PM

What in the world of INSANITY is THIS utter garbage?

Honest questions: Is it just some sort of simplifying assumption? If so, what does it simplify? Why SHOULDN'T, for instance, WBL represent what you have left after a reasonable number of revivifications*, replacement for sundered/disenchanted/stolen/looted from your body before it could be recovered/destroyed on natural 1 on a saving throw after it failed its save too?!
*With MAYBE some error margin for campaigns that vary significantly from the "default assumed lethality".

No vitrol taken personally.

And how could one know that it DOESN'T include that sort of thing? I'm nearly certain that it is intended to include allowances for expended limited use items (potions, scrolls, wand and staff charges, etc).
As for XPs, other than this specific class (or other equally oddball and RARE cases), why would how many times you have died on your way to a given XP total even matter, and thus how could their be any meaningful pre-existing assumption on that particular question before now?

EDIT: I'm making a note in the GoogleDoc to scale or limit this class feature according to proportion of Phileotheysia levels... wouldn't want people dipping the class in super-high "revolving door afterlife" campaigns just for that... although the fact that you can only spend those XPs on Phileotheysia features is a big limiter... oh, and because of generic limits on Mythos classes that means that you need at least half your levels in Phileotheysia in order to be able to spend those XPs anyway. Is that enough to cover it?

To be fair yes, it is a simplifying assumption. I've never seen anywhere that characters at higher levels are supposed to expect to have died in their backstory/pre-campaign adventuring days. And, maybe it's a bias from my sessions, but I believe in my years of playing that at most one player built a death into their backstory. On top of that the rules for making characters at higher levels don't include clauses for if you died in your backstory.

Creating a good way of including backstory deaths is highly complex and difficult. You have to take into account the level lost, the price paid to bring you back, if your particularly detailed any material wealth lost in the process of leveling. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that unless you have express reason to benefit you probably will not include it.

The limit of phileotheysia abilities and stuff is perfectly fine, it makes sense and allowing it to buy other class abilities would have me literally up in arms against the idea.

To be fair, the way you have it written as it stands is fine. It's direct enough and, if not directly included in it, still has a price to it. It limits the penalty for death, which for a martyr makes sense and is not bad.

The problem of including allowed death in character creation for the class is that unless you dictate the cost to bring them back is included most people will assume that the being killed and brought back was effectively free, as per most backstory things. Thus they lose a level for more features and (effectively) more gold.

DracoDei

2016-04-21, 11:22 PM

(Interspersed responses added in edits... beginning of potentially outdated thoughts will be noted, but some of those still apply... meh, more complicated than that now that I look at it again, but I have put enough sweat into writing this post... questions welcome if anyone needs to know what happened when...)

No vitrol taken personally.

To be fair yes, it is a simplifying assumption. I've never seen anywhere that characters at higher levels are supposed to expect to have died in their backstory/pre-campaign adventuring days.
Why would they bother mentioning something that doesn't make a difference, and is common sense after a little thought?

And, maybe it's a bias from my sessions, but I believe in my years of playing that at most one player built a death into their backstory. On top of that the rules for making characters at higher levels don't include clauses for if you died in your backstory.
What mechanical difference would it make usually?

Creating a good way of including backstory deaths is highly complex and difficult. You have to take into account the level lost, the price paid to bring you back, if your particularly detailed any material wealth lost in the process of leveling.
It would fall under "overhead"...
If a party contains 2 14th level characters, and one of them started out as a so poor he had to learn to steal just to survive, and the other one is a third son of a noble family who only went adventuring because he was bored out of his gourd with his life of luxury and decided to see what those spells he learned can actually DO...

Well, both of them are now walking around in magic items worth more than that noble-families net-worth, so what is the difference where they started from?

Similarly, if I want to say that my 200 year old elf ranger with Favored Enemy[Goblinoid], has been tirelessly hunting the foes of his race, and would be twice his level and much richer if he didn't regularly end up temporarily metaphysically inconvenienced... why should that change anything compared to the warlock who made a major pact with a visiting Balor yesterday and whose only experience with fighting prior to the start of the campaign was sparring as part of a town militia? (Needing to do interesting things to go up levels is for actual play. Backstory and NPCs have no such requirement in my book... but that might just be me.).

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that unless you have express reason to benefit you probably will not include it.
I agree that you wouldn't tend to mention it, but if one sat down and thought about it...?

The limit of phileotheysia abilities and stuff is perfectly fine, it makes sense and allowing it to buy other class abilities would have me literally up in arms against the idea.

To be fair, the way you have it written as it stands is fine. It's direct enough and, if not directly included in it, still has a price to it. It limits the penalty for death, which for a martyr makes sense and is not bad.

The problem of including allowed death in character creation for the class is that unless you dictate the cost to bring them back is included most people will assume that the being killed and brought back was effectively free, as per most backstory things. Thus they lose a level for more features and (effectively) more gold.
Err... see, (as I think I may have mentioned before) I would assume that the starting XPs and ECLs for a high level party implicitly include all the characters having died various numbers of times to arrive at those numbers. If they don't put it into their backstories it is because it is too minor a detail to be worth mentioning. "Everybody dies. That is what revivification spells are for in the first place. Revolving door afterlives..." etc.

What I ideally was hoping to come up with at the end of all this was a chart that gave starting XP pools, sort of vaguely like the Artificer's Craft reserve, that you get when creating a character at a given level, but NOT when leveling up. There would be different columns for different degrees of lethality of the campaign as it is presumed to have played out prior to the actual start of game. The GM would pick said level of lethality (or take what I think will unfortunately be the popular option of ignoring the whole thing). So, no, you wouldn't start a level behind... I may need to nerf the class otherwise to make up for this (regardless of if the deaths happen during play or during backstory), but turning down some numbers shouldn't be that hard, right?

Slightly older take on this:
I feel like we are talking in circles a bit...

...anyone else got anything to add?

...maybe I should just ask people in the non-homebrew parts of the boards what their experiences have been in actual play for number of levels gained between deaths and how they would describe the lethality of those campaigns. I can then make the conservative estimate that Phileotheysia don't die any more often than any other class. If I don't explain why I'm asking, I can probably avoid most of the problem...? I dunno...

Jakman217

2016-04-22, 12:16 AM

Err... see, (as I think I may have mentioned before) I would assume that the starting XPs and ECLs for a high level party implicitly include all the characters having died various numbers of times to arrive at those numbers. If they don't put it into their backstories it is because it is too minor a detail to be worth mentioning. "Everybody dies. That is what revivification spells are for in the first place. Revolving door afterlives..." etc.

What I ideally was hoping to come up with at the end of all this was a chart that gave starting XP pools, sort of vaguely like the Artificer's Craft reserve, that you get when creating a character at a given level, but NOT when leveling up. There would be different columns for different degrees of lethality of the campaign as it is presumed to have played out prior to the actual start of game. The GM would pick said level of lethality (or take what I think will unfortunately be the popular option of ignoring the whole thing).

I feel like we are talking in circles a bit...

...anyone else got anything to add?
.

I get the feeling of talking in circles as well. BUT...

I find it hard for someone to say that death is ever a minor part of a campaign. Characters generally don't forget dying. Saying that a character who starts at level X has died at least Y times is, in my experience, making a much more massive assumption than assuming they didn't die up to that point. I've played and run many difficult games and 9/10 times they players will run before they can be killed. But then again, I prefer to play perma-death games because death is a big deal and you should rightly fear for your character's life.

Now that you mention the Artificer, my answer of begrudging cooperation is to base it off of the artificer. Though, the artificer gets away with it because it only gains more as it levels, can never gain more at any point other point, and it's expressly for enchanting, which does get extremely expensive, extremely fast.

ThreadNecro5

2016-04-22, 01:14 PM

Jakman217

2016-04-22, 02:15 PM

I just had the thought that the Chrimatia, due to its money is Exp thing, I should specify what happens to characters starting over 1st level.

So would wording like the following be suitable/balanced?

A Chrimatia who begins at a higher level than 1st has starting GP equal to the amount of Exp they would otherwise start with which may not be spent in character creation, and may purchase things using the recommended starting GP a character of their level would receive but any unspent GP from this total is lost.

It's not perfect, but they should work. A word of warning is that after about level 6 the expected character wealth by that level is greater than the xp needed for the next level, meaning that at high enough levels they can just not buy stuff and get more levels.

An alternative idea I just had was that you could use the expected wealth per level as wealth needed per level, effectively swapping to xp needed per level and expected wealth. Since the xp between levels quickly becomes less than the gold needed between levels it makes things better balanced at higher starting levels while only slightly giving them an advantage at lower levels. Plus, since they get xp as extra gold it replaced their expected wealth per level.

Sidequestion, is the wealth of the chrimatia based on raw gp or total accumulated value (all currently existing items and wealth in the character's possession?

If you're not sure what I'm talking about you can see the xp chart here (http://www.ign.com/wikis/dungeons-and-dragons/Level_and_XP_progression), and expected total wealth/level here (http://www.dndarchive.com/forums/depth-roleplay-qa/character-wealth-level).

edit: Or a better idea would be to combine expected wealth at level +1/2 xp per level. Would probably work better than just one or the other. Arguments can be made for other formula.

ThreadNecro5

2016-04-27, 02:39 PM

It's not perfect, but they should work. A word of warning is that after about level 6 the expected character wealth by that level is greater than the xp needed for the next level, meaning that at high enough levels they can just not buy stuff and get more levels.

An alternative idea I just had was that you could use the expected wealth per level as wealth needed per level, effectively swapping to xp needed per level and expected wealth. Since the xp between levels quickly becomes less than the gold needed between levels it makes things better balanced at higher starting levels while only slightly giving them an advantage at lower levels. Plus, since they get xp as extra gold it replaced their expected wealth per level.

Going by your concern in the first paragraph either I have worded the text in the reverse to what I intended, or one of us as read something wrong (specifically I am not understanding how extra levels could be gained), my intent for how things were to function was, using a character starting at 10th LV as an example:
Begin with 45,000GP in order to have the minimum to be level 10.
Have 49,000 GP to spend on assorted stuff for starting gear. Presume 40,000 is spent.
The remaining 9000 GP is not gained by the Chrimatia, and is gone.

Looking at things now however I think I may change it to only gain 50% WBL to spend in character creation to minimise buying a ludicrous amount of rope or something and selling it immediately for GP to gain levels, and similar shenanigans. As to your second paragraph, I may use that idea depending on how discussion goes.

Sidequestion, is the wealth of the chrimatia based on raw gp or total accumulated value (all currently existing items and wealth in the character's possession?

If by wealth you mean the amount tracked for counting when you gain a level and such, then you only count the raw GP total. but now that I think about it, it would make sense to count the contents of the vault as well, so gems, jewellery and the like are also counted, but not things like buildings and businesses or stuff that you own but wouldn't go into the vault or be traditionally regarded as valuable's (probably exempt Magic items from counting if they have been used in the passed week or so). Opinions?

edit: Or a better idea would be to combine expected wealth at level +1/2 xp per level. Would probably work better than just one or the other. Arguments can be made for other formula.

I'm not to sure on this the final numbers seem a bit high, but I'm not good with numbers and may not be following things entirely.

Jakman217

2016-04-27, 03:07 PM

Going by your concern in the first paragraph either I have worded the text in the reverse to what I intended, or one of us as read something wrong (specifically I am not understanding how extra levels could be gained), my intent for how things were to function was, using a character starting at 10th LV as an example:
Begin with 45,000GP in order to have the minimum to be level 10.
Have 49,000 GP to spend on assorted stuff for starting gear. Presume 40,000 is spent.
The remaining 9000 GP is not gained by the Chrimatia, and is gone.

Looking at things now however I think I may change it to only gain 50% WBL to spend in character creation to minimise buying a ludicrous amount of rope or something and selling it immediately for GP to gain levels, and similar shenanigans. As to your second paragraph, I may use that idea depending on how discussion goes.

Saying use it or lose it on the starting wealth for items helps a bit, but you seem to have realized the flaw in that as well. If a charactre spent all their 49k gold, then got it back at half price, they would have 69,500 gp, in xp amount that's equivalent to level 12.

If by wealth you mean the amount tracked for counting when you gain a level and such, then you only count the raw GP total. but now that I think about it, it would make sense to count the contents of the vault as well, so gems, jewellery and the like are also counted, but not things like buildings and businesses or stuff that you own but wouldn't go into the vault or be traditionally regarded as valuable's (probably exempt Magic items from counting if they have been used in the passed week or so). Opinions?

I would say not including items in the vault would be silly, otherwise it'll make it seem worthless. Not counting buildings/businesses and/or immaterial wealth is fine and probably for the best. Wouldn't want the chrimatia to suddenly gain ten levels from gaining a large business afterall. I would say including magic items is also a good idea with the understanding that if you use them up (potions/wands/etc.) then they you lose their value. Though you could consider them to be half the value because that's the standard selling price, I'd say not to bother as it's easier to track the whole value of the weapon then the partial value of it.

I'm not to sure on this the final numbers seem a bit high, but I'm not good with numbers and may not be following things entirely.

The main reason is that any xp they gain is automatically converted to extra gp for them (am I right on this or misreading an earlier post) and around their wealth by level value on top of that. If you increase the gp needed for a level it negates some of the starting wealth issue. Also, if you include magic items in their wealth it means they'll never really lose money on buying stuff so long as it isn't limited uses.

That's my main reason why I think you should increase the needed gp for levels. It removes (or lessens) the problems of them never spending money, including their items in their wealth, and helps keep them from simply selling everything to gain more levels. Plus, if your a DM who makes sure everyone has wealth by level, then you pretty much ensure the chrimatia is going to be gaining a few extra levels.

DracoDei

2016-04-27, 05:19 PM

Regarding Chrimatia:
Earlier I said that throwing gold pieces that bypass DR x/Silver was especially thematic. To that I'm going to add that using diamond (or, for the more technically astute, sapphires and related materials) to by-pass DR x/Adamintine would also be an especially good fit.

Links to other threads of relevance to Phileotheysia:
As long as I am here, let me throw these up just in case anyone is interested...
1.) I asked that question about levels lost to revivification in the roleplaying forum. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486234-How-many-times-can-a-character-expect-to-be-returned-to-life-from-levels-9-to-16&p=20715001#post20715001) Responses so far seem to be "About once in that whole range" (2 people) or "My group uses in-combat revivification to avoid the issue whenever possible, and draws up a new character rather than playing a level back from the rest of the party." (1 person).

2.) I had created a sequel mythos that built on the one that takes part of the target's damage for them. It allowed sharing of ability score reduction (damage, drain, burn, etc), and eventually negative levels. Then I did an Exalted version that can do all of the above, but spreads the harm out across the whole party, rather than just splitting it between the Phileotheysia and the original target. I then turned most of the results BACK into spells, and posted them HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485993-(Spell)-Variations-on-*Shield-Other*-(PEACH)&p=20704759#post20704759).

ThreadNecro5

2016-04-28, 12:59 PM

The main reason is that any xp they gain is automatically converted to extra gp for them (am I right on this or misreading an earlier post) and around their wealth by level value on top of that. If you increase the gp needed for a level it negates some of the starting wealth issue. Also, if you include magic items in their wealth it means they'll never really lose money on buying stuff so long as it isn't limited uses.

That's my main reason why I think you should increase the needed gp for levels. It removes (or lessens) the problems of them never spending money, including their items in their wealth, and helps keep them from simply selling everything to gain more levels. Plus, if your a DM who makes sure everyone has wealth by level, then you pretty much ensure the chrimatia is going to be gaining a few extra levels.

Point taken, I'll work on adding this stuff in.

Reply to DracoDei:

Earlier I said that throwing gold pieces that bypass DR x/Silver was especially thematic. To that I'm going to add that using diamond (or, for the more technically astute, sapphires and related materials) to by-pass DR x/Adamintine would also be an especially good fit.

I forgot to add this in, will do so. I think I'll work it out by having the coin-tossing Mythos count as silver if the die rolled is large enough, and for Adamantine use an even higher damage. I can post the updated mythos below while I'm posting some other new ones.

New/Updated Mythos:
Basic:
The Toss of a Coin
Prerequisites: -

You may make a ranged touch attack to throw a handful of money as a standard action. You choose any single dice to roll (a D100 is treated as one dice in this case), the creature takes an amount of damage equal to the result of the dice roll and you lose an equal amount of GP.

If you cannot pay the full amount equal to the dice roll, you instead take the same amount of damage, that cannot be healed in any way until you pay an amount of GP equal to the amount you could not pay +50%. If the dice rolled is a D8 or larger dice this damage bypasses DR X/Silver. If the dice is a D20 or larger the damage also bypasses DR X/Adamantine.

Self-Indulgent Urge Exploitation
Prerequisites: -

As a standard action you may target a creature you can see within 60ft and force them to make a will save. Should the creature fail the save they are compelled to work according to their own personal wants and desires over working along with the current situation. They are compelled to do this even in the face of danger but otherwise will act in accordance with their personality. For example a member of a group of raiders could try and make of with as much as they can carry then and there abandoning their comrades, they could intermediately betray their leader having been waiting for the time to do so, or in the case of some beings declare some competition for leadership. Alternatively a town guard standing watch could decide to shirk their duties and head to the tavern. The duration of this Mythos varies depending weather the target is under stressful conditions such as combat, for example the raider in the above example would be but not the guard. When the target is under stressful conditions this Mythos lasts for 1d4+1 rounds, otherwise it lasts for either one hour or until the target is reminded they have other duties to preform/more important things to do.

Advanced Manifestations
Covetous idol
As a standard action you may infuse this Mythos’s effects into an item. While an item is infused in this way you cannot use this Mythos unless you possess the Awaken Avaricious Desire Manifestation, in which case you reduce the number of creatures you may target by one. You gain blindsense 10ft to each infused object and as a free action may trigger its effect as a standard action, targeting each creature within 10ft of the infused object with the effects of this Mythos.

Awaken Avaricious Desire
As a single standard action, you may target a number of creatures with this Mythos equal to your Charisma Modifier.

Fantastic(?):
The Price of Loyalty

The Chrimatia takes no penalty on preforming a rushed Diplomacy check if they pay 10GP per creature they wish to not take the penalty on during the action (this appears in the possession of the being that diplomacy is being used on). Additionally by paying an amount of GP equal to the creatures total HDx50 you may improve the creatures attitude by one step after the result of the Diplomacy check is determined.

Basic Manifestations:
Actually Decent Fellows
You may preform a rushed Diplomacy check on a number of creatures within 100ft at a time equal to your Charisma Modifier as a Full-Round Action. For the check their attention is temporarily drawn to you so that they hear you out.

Under New Employ
Your diplomacy checks may raise a creatures Attitude to you to Fanatic, as detailed under the rules for Epic Level Characters. All creatures who are Fanatic to you are considered your property.

Jakman217

2016-04-28, 06:41 PM

Fantastic(?):
The Price of Loyalty

The Chrimatia takes no penalty on preforming a rushed Diplomacy check if they pay 10GP per creature they wish to not take the penalty on during the action (this appears in the possession of the being that diplomacy is being used on). Additionally by paying an amount of GP equal to the creatures total HDx50 you may improve the creatures attitude by one step after the result of the Diplomacy check is determined.

Basic Manifestations:
Actually Decent Fellows
You may preform a rushed Diplomacy check on a number of creatures within 100ft at a time equal to your Charisma Modifier as a Full-Round Action. For the check their attention is temporarily drawn to you so that they hear you out.

Under New Employ
Your diplomacy checks may raise a creatures Attitude to you to Fanatic, as detailed under the rules for Epic Level Characters. All creatures who are Fanatic to you are considered your property.

I consider the ability to buy worshipers to be a bit too far, but then that may be because in my own class I've avoided the attitude thing. Other than the ability to buy fanaticism this seems fine to me.

Another question for everyone however.

Have you seen the series Sakamoto, desu ga? Because I'm thinking of making a mythos class around the idea of being SUPA COOL. Basically a class that is around being cool in everything, even to the point of pointlessness. What do you guys think? It is kind of meant to be a semi-silly class, but I could have fun playing with it.

DracoDei

2016-04-28, 09:32 PM

Reply to DracoDei:

I forgot to add this in, will do so. I think I'll work it out by having the coin-tossing Mythos count as silver if the die rolled is large enough, and for Adamantine use an even higher damage. I can post the updated mythos below while I'm posting some other new ones.

New/Updated Mythos:
Basic:
The Toss of a Coin
Prerequisites: -

You may make a ranged touch attack to throw a handful of money as a standard action. You choose any single dice to roll (a D100 is treated as one dice in this case), the creature takes an amount of damage equal to the result of the dice roll and you lose an equal amount of GP.

If you cannot pay the full amount equal to the dice roll, you instead take the same amount of damage, that cannot be healed in any way until you pay an amount of GP equal to the amount you could not pay +50%. If the dice rolled is a D8 or larger dice this damage bypasses DR X/Silver. If the dice is a D20 or larger the damage also bypasses DR X/Adamantine.

This seems mechanically... well, 1 GP per point of damage is extremely cheap, but that may be fine depending on tier. One thing I would say is that PbP players may be especially prone to claiming that dice with weird numbers of sides exist (and they physically exist too for a lot of things... I've seen d3s d30s and maybe even d28s). The major problem with this is that you could choose, for example, a d9000 to have a very good chance of one-shotting the BBEG, for a basically trivial expenditure of resources. The one mitigating factor is that the fact that it is a single die means that there is an AWFUL lot of variation, which introduces an strong element of risk. Thus why I picked a d9000 rather than a d1000.

tl;dr Limit it to the standard: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d100, or (my preferred option), limit it to d100 and smaller.

Maybe have an Exalted sequel that lets you go to d1000s, but with anything over a d100 having a 5 to 1 conversion factor instead of 1 to 1? 2 to 1? Something?

Flavor-wise:
Even a 100 GP diamond is going to be pretty small, and thus doesn't feel right flavor-wise. Well, unless your response is "This is the mythic HOARDER, not the mythic SPENDER.", in which case I would fluff it as throwing a lot more than that, but most of it boomerangs right back into your money-pouch after hitting, with the loss representing only the damage (including tiny fragments of coins and bars and such left in the target) done to the treasure in question. Note I said TREASURE, because being able to throw coins, but not gemstones is silly. Copper amulets that are worth x1000 the value off the copper due to the workmanship* might or might not fit the fluff you are going for.

*Great Master level stuff... how much do you think Da Vinci paid for the canvas and paint for the Mona Lisa?

All of which pales in comparison to the fact that you stripped out ever bit of the flavor I was suggesting by not specifically calling out "gold is better than silver" and "nobody can tell me that diamonds aren't as good as adamintine!"* as the narrative logic behind the DR bypasses. This is mythos. The fluff is important.

Have you seen the series Sakamoto, desu ga? Because I'm thinking of making a mythos class around the idea of being SUPA COOL. Basically a class that is around being cool in everything, even to the point of pointlessness. What do you guys think? It is kind of meant to be a semi-silly class, but I could have fun playing with it.
Not seen the series, but given that someone was at least trying to make the Mythic Yandere Girlfriend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364949-Mythos-Homebrew-Discussion-II-Where-Simplicity-Goes-to-Die&p=18405092&viewfull=1#post18405092), I think you are within the bounds of what might be reasonable to attempt.

That said, it seems a bit vague of a concept so expect to have to change the name of what you are going for, or at least be very careful and/or repetitive about explaining which specific definition of "cool" you are using... Oh, and such definitions should be through enough to work without referring to any outside sources. This is a general rule I think is good to apply, because people's reference pools can vary greatly.

While I'm at it, there is one mythos whose wording I am especially concerned about.

All you need to know about its pre-requisite is that (at the class levels in question) it grants the Phileotheysia SR of Level+5, which can be transferred to every ally within 30', with those within 10' gaining a +5 bonus to it.

As it currently stands:
Legendary Mythos
Holding the Battlefield [Sacrifice]
Prerequisite: Phileotheysia Level 16, Spellcraft 19 Ranks, Shield of the Soul (Fantastic Mythos, see that mythos itself for its further prerequisites)

What use to defend the bodies of your comrades if the very air around them can be replaced with barriers that impede them from rallying together to defend themselves?! This shall not stand!

As a Swift action you may transfer the spell resistance granted by Shield of the Soul to everything and everyone within 30’ that is not yourself, an non-corpse object you are carrying*, or an enemy. This spell resistance gains a +5 bonus when so transferred.

There are several further exceptions to the normal rules for spell resistance:

This applies against supernatural abilities. If no clear way of determining the effective caster level for such abilities exists, use the class levels or hit-dice of the class or race that grants that ability.

It does not apply to spells, abilities, etc. by your allies or you.

It applies only to spells that grant their caster meaningful information (including all divinations), or materially affect the object or creature in question. See end of following paragraph for one example of a case where this spell resistance does not apply.

It applies even to spells that do not normally allow spell resistance, but in such cases ONLY affects the part of the spell that is within that radius. For instance a Wall of Stone would appear with the part that would lay within the area of this mythos excised out of it, and Twinned Acid Orb could have one one of its orbs vanish without effect upon upon striking an ally within the radius of this effect (assuming the caster failed the SR roll), while the other, which might or might not enter this radius, but whose target is outside it would strike its target without impediment. Both orbs would wink out upon entering the radius except that they are not materially affecting the air in any meaningful way, unlike the aforementioned Wall of Stone which replaces said air more than just by flying through it leaving turbulence in its wake. This also means that a Fireball could damage a particular ally regardless of what else made its saving throw (except for a barrier that would block the Fireball if it had been destroyed). In other words, no, the air doesn’t provide total cover just because the air made its spell-resistance roll to not be fractionally heated as the flames passed through it.

Note that if a spell has an area defined spatially, but effectively targets your enemies, then this mythos does nothing to stop that. For one example of this see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilitySphere.htm”]Invisibility (”[url) Sphere[/URL].

*Jerky, and leather don’t count, a dead familiar does. I’m sure you can work out the distinction from there...

Make this Exalted Tier?... Probably not!

Split this into several mythos since it covers so much more ground than the original?

For simplicity, have this roll only ONCE per spell, at least when it comes to objects? That would keep any arguments about where the boundaries between objects lay (is a cloud the same as the air around it? If you have dry land smoothly transitioning to mud, then muddy water, then clear water where do the transitions happen, if at all?). Post this somewhere OTHER than the main bank of mythos FIRST to get a double-check on the wording.

Advanced manifestation ideas:

1.)Something that requires SR to be rolled for spells passing through the area to target non-enemies?

2.) Area increase? It is already a pretty big area… perhaps a separate mythos for that?

Jakman217

2016-04-28, 10:45 PM

Not seen the series, but given that someone was at least trying to make the Mythic Yandere Girlfriend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364949-Mythos-Homebrew-Discussion-II-Where-Simplicity-Goes-to-Die&p=18405092&viewfull=1#post18405092), I think you are within the bounds of what might be reasonable to attempt.

That said, it seems a bit vague of a concept so expect to have to change the name of what you are going for, or at least be very careful and/or repetitive about explaining which specific definition of "cool" you are using... Oh, and such definitions should be through enough to work without referring to any outside sources. This is a general rule I think is good to apply, because people's reference pools can vary greatly.

I would say the class in more general sense could be the illusion of self-confidence becoming reality. It's a mythos class that would gain power from the superficial, and depend entirely upon it's own self confidence. I could call them a mythic fashionista, but that's not really appropriate. A mythic liar could be a way to do it (and turn the 'coolness' of the character into lying to themself), but then I'd be making a different class (and it may overlap too much with the mythic bard as that class stands). I can't think of a better word then stylist, though that is most certainly not the right word. But, the main feature would be that they chose a manifestation of their ego, must protect it, and as it grows so does their power. Current idea list for options is poise, fashion, and superiority.

This applies against supernatural abilities. If no clear way of determining the effective caster level for such abilities exists, use the class levels or hit-dice of the class or race that grants that ability.

It does not apply to spells, abilities, etc. by your allies or you.

I see no major problem with this. I question the application to supernatural abilities, since it should already apply to them anyway, but fine.

It applies only to spells that grant their caster meaningful information (including all divinations), or materially affect the object or creature in question. See end of following paragraph for one example of a case where this spell resistance does not apply.

Not sure what you mean here, that is unbelievably vague. If you want to simplify it I suggest, stating It applies only to spells that harm or target the charges you guard in question. That may help out a bit.

It applies even to spells that do not normally allow spell resistance, but in such cases ONLY affects the part of the spell that is within that radius. For instance a Wall of Stone would appear with the part that would lay within the area of this mythos excised out of it, and Twinned Acid Orb could have one one of its orbs vanish without effect upon upon striking an ally within the radius of this effect (assuming the caster failed the SR roll), while the other, which might or might not enter this radius, but whose target is outside it would strike its target without impediment. Both orbs would wink out upon entering the radius except that they are not materially affecting the air in any meaningful way, unlike the aforementioned Wall of Stone which replaces said air more than just by flying through it leaving turbulence in its wake. This also means that a Fireball could damage a particular ally regardless of what else made its saving throw (except for a barrier that would block the Fireball if it had been destroyed). In other words, no, the air doesn’t provide total cover just because the air made its spell-resistance roll to not be fractionally heated as the flames passed through it.

Note that if a spell has an area defined spatially, but effectively targets your enemies, then this mythos does nothing to stop that. For one example of this see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilitySphere.htm”]Invisibility (”[url) Sphere[/URL].

That big paragraph, has so much unclear about it. I start with some idea, but then quickly lose it at about the halfway point. What are you trying to say here?

My first suggestion, don't apply it to things that don't have to break SR. There's a reason why some don't apply to SR, and honestly, most of the worst spells you protect from do need to break SR.

2nd, I suggest treating the aura of 'magic no hurt', more like an antimagic field. Use it's rules to base your idea off of and go from there. The way you describe it is just... unclear to me.

As for it being a fantastic mythos, I think it's fine so long as it's not just an AM field. With the ability to break it I think it's fine as fantastic. The SR is high, but not atrociously high. (The standard for high SR is about 11+HD, any higher and it's almost unbreakable.)

DracoDei

2016-04-29, 01:59 AM

I would say the class in more general sense could be the illusion of self-confidence becoming reality. It's a mythos class that would gain power from the superficial, and depend entirely upon it's own self confidence. I could call them a mythic fashionista, but that's not really appropriate. A mythic liar could be a way to do it (and turn the 'coolness' of the character into lying to themself), but then I'd be making a different class (and it may overlap too much with the mythic bard as that class stands). I can't think of a better word then stylist, though that is most certainly not the right word. But, the main feature would be that they chose a manifestation of their ego, must protect it, and as it grows so does their power. Current idea list for options is poise, fashion, and superiority.
It is probably just how tired I am, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I have a start on it, but it doesn't add up to a meaningful whole. Maybe I'll have another look at it at some later point.

Perhaps some specific examples would help?

I see no major problem with this. I question the application to supernatural abilities, since it should already apply to them anyway, but fine.
From the SRD:
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

Not sure what you mean here, that is unbelievably vague. If you want to simplify it I suggest, stating It applies only to spells that harm or target the charges you guard in question. That may help out a bit.
Nope... "harm" is much to narrow a definition. See below about what the core of the idea is.

That big paragraph, has so much unclear about it. I start with some idea, but then quickly lose it at about the halfway point. What are you trying to say here?

My first suggestion, don't apply it to things that don't have to break SR. There's a reason why some don't apply to SR, and honestly, most of the worst spells you protect from do need to break SR.
The core concept here was actually to have it to apply to battlefield control stuff like Wall of Stone, Web, Wall of Iron, etc. Especially the walls since that could cut the Phileotheysia off from one or more of his allies which... is a very bad thing for that ally since most of the Phileotheysia's buffs have a 1 round duration.

To put it another way, the fact that it actually gives your allies SR is a comparatively minor point. The major point is that it prevents the enemy from messing with the environment.

Also, Orbs are generally considered to be ridiculous, so that was part of my thinking with having it be so all-encompassing.

Lastly, asking me what I mean by something, rather than a more specific question, is usually an exercise in frustration. If I knew how to say something more clearly, I would have already done so.

I like to provide examples when things get murky, which is why that paragraph was so example-heavy.

2nd, I suggest treating the aura of 'magic no hurt', more like an antimagic field. Use it's rules to base your idea off of and go from there. The way you describe it is just... unclear to me.
Yeah, that might be a better way to describe it... I guess? Antimagic Field did, indeed cross my mind when I was writing the mythos, but I also liked the idea of freely being able to target through it, which I'm not sure if AMF does... it is too late at night, and I have an important doctor's appointment in the morning, so I'm not going to check.

The key image here probably is that of a Wall of Iron appearing missing a massive chunk in the middle IF the caster fails to overcome the SR.

As for it being a fantastic mythos, I think it's fine so long as it's not just an AM field. With the ability to break it I think it's fine as fantastic. The SR is high, but not atrociously high. (The standard for high SR is about 11+HD, any higher and it's almost unbreakable.)
Well, the SR automatically upgrades to level 15+level when you get your first Exalted Mythos, due to the way the pre-requisite mythos works, but I could perhaps be talked into changing that.

Jakman217

2016-04-29, 02:24 AM

It is probably just how tired I am, but that doesn't make much sense to me. I have a start on it, but it doesn't add up to a meaningful whole. Maybe I'll have another look at it at some later point.

Perhaps some specific examples would help?

Alright.

Example/Idea 1: Character looks at a barrage of arrows coming at him. Takes a pose and smiles at their attempts to hit him. Proceeds to roll a charisma check to convince himself he's untouchable(higher level ability may trivialize or negate the need of this roll), and then continues laughing as suddenly his AC increases dramatically.

Example/Idea 2: The character is confronted by an assailant. The character proceeds to proclaim that the assailant is inferior, and explains why, then (after a charisma check) pimp slaps them into unconsciousness.

Example/Idea 3: The character walking through a party wearing their best (and prized) dress proceeds to spill something on her dress. Lacking the ability to protect it or spin it (insert check) in her favor she attempts to clean it. After attempting to clean it, and realizing she can't, they proceed to run from the room screaming and foaming at the mouth until this crime against fashion is rectified.

Example/Idea 4: Someone attempts to defame the Cool Dood that is the character. The character proceeds (with a check) simply adjust to the action in the most impressive way and his fame multiplies.

Example/Idea 5: The character's hair is flawless and worthy of being called art. Someone attempting to dethrone him attempts to cut it off. The Character laughs and proclaims his hair is so beautiful, reality itself will keep it from being cut, and so the character's hair suddenly becomes like adamant, breaking the razor of the attacker.

Example/Idea 6: The character gets into an arm wrestling contest with an anthropomorphic african elephant who took levels in war hulk for all the strength. Rolls a charisma check to convince himself he's stronger, but fails, and now lays broken on the ground, his self-esteem and grandeur broken in his mind. He must fix this by beating the elephant man and prove he is superior. And, he will stop at nothing to do so.

To sum it up. It takes the Glorious/Humbled mechanic from the Dinyomi, makes it a bit more flexible in terms of difficulty to upkeep. Then focuses the abilities on giving superficial things more power than the real things. It emphasizes the character believing he's superior without making him power hungry. To harden it even more, the classes abilities should be (in some form or another) be focused on meeting or allowing you to meet the rule of cool (http://allthetropes.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Cool).

From the SRD:
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

Well, the more you know.

The core concept here was actually to have it to apply to battlefield control stuff like Wall of Stone, Web, Wall of Iron, etc. Especially the walls since that could cut the Phileotheysia off from one or more of his allies which... is a very bad thing for that ally since most of the Phileotheysia's buffs have a 1 round duration.

To put it another way, the fact that it actually gives your allies SR is a comparatively minor point. The major point is that it prevents the enemy from messing with the environment.

Also, Orbs are generally considered to be ridiculous, so that was part of my thinking with having it be so all-encompassing.

Lastly, asking me what I mean by something, rather than a more specific question, is usually an exercise in frustration. If I knew how to say something more clearly, I would have already done so.

I like to provide examples when things get murky, which is why that paragraph was so example-heavy.

Yeah, that might be a better way to describe it... I guess? Antimagic Field did, indeed cross my mind when I was writing the mythos, but I also liked the idea of freely being able to target through it, which I'm not sure if AMF does... it is too late at night, and I have an important doctor's appointment in the morning, so I'm not going to check.

The key image here probably is that of a Wall of Iron appearing missing a massive chunk in the middle IF the caster fails to overcome the SR.

Well, the SR automatically upgrades to level 15+level when you get your first Exalted Mythos, due to the way the pre-requisite mythos works, but I could perhaps be talked into changing that.

Ok, that makes much more sense. AMF does stop (suppress) all spells and magic that enters it's range. Wall's of X automatically don't appear in them, and if the field moves onto them it causes them to dissappear. It does not stop the spell from moving through the field and hitting something on the other side as it expressly suppresses and not stops spells that are already in effect.

Part of me want's to suggest to tone it down from 15+level SR, but then again, a fair number of people with mythos characters aren't going to be dealing with that many spell casters. I'd suggest staying closer to 11+level SR, but I'm not going to yell at you for putting it so high.

roko10

2016-04-29, 12:16 PM

Well, honestly, that looks like the other half of the Empyrean made manifest, which is pretty damn cool. "I think I'm awesome, therefore I am" are amongst my favorite character archetypes. It's quite doable from a Mythos-making perspective, too.

In other news, I'm trying to create a Mythos class who doesn't have one specific "famous" Titan to draw their Mythos from, but rather having to do with the "obscure" Titans who aren't even relevant enough to get Anthols of their own. Mechanicswise, they're the "skillmonkiest" of the Mythic classes, pushing the boundaries of otherwise mundane skills to the maximum.

Is this idea allowed in the Mythos lore? I mean, there's the fact that sometimes, Anthols somehow get some measure of power from other Titans, but is it even possible for a bunch of no-name Titans to "work together" and create some sort of Mythos grab bag? Are there even "irrelevant" Titans in the lore?

VoodooPaladin

2016-04-29, 03:39 PM

Is this idea allowed in the Mythos lore? I mean, there's the fact that sometimes, Anthols somehow get some measure of power from other Titans, but is it even possible for a bunch of no-name Titans to "work together" and create some sort of Mythos grab bag? Are there even "irrelevant" Titans in the lore?

It's a little strange, but I think there is precedent. The Conqueror is made of several lesser Mythic entities, bound together by envy towards their greater cousins and contempt towards all that they have created. Egregore is a composite being stitched together from various Mythos that did not survive to become incorporated into the new world: his sons are Roger Rabbit, his daughters are Lola Bunny, and his adopted grandbabies are an army of soul-eating leather penguins.

So I think the idea would be that, technically, you can't be a bunch of "Weak Mythos", but you can totally be one "Strong Mythos" that is literally nothing but a number of "Weak Mythos" bolted onto each other like some kind of crossbred mongrelfolk/owlbear chimera. "The Coalition's Mythos" maybe?

Still, if you can make some kind of concept-thieving Myth-hussy a valid class concept, you're welcome to it.

nikkoli

2016-05-03, 09:00 PM

BRAZEN OBELUS TEGUMENT
Prerequisite: -

Your flesh takes on the metallic appearance of burnished brass, and your features become slightly harder and more statuesque. For some characters, this also alters their skin and eye color to something more inhuman (especially a brilliant, glowing green), but it is not always the case. You no longer bleed, though deep wounds reveal veins of verdigris where your blood might've been, and you have Damage Reduction X/Lawful where X is equal to your class level.

At 4th level, you also have Fire Resistance equal to your class level.

At 9th level, the Damage Reduction granted by this Mythos becomes X/Lawful and Magic.

So since you no longer have blood, would you not need to breathe? It makes since since you lack a means to transport oxygen, that you wouldn't need it. (posting here since jaganatha thread is too old)

Lanth Sor

2016-05-04, 11:49 AM

So since you no longer have blood, would you not need to breathe? It makes since since you lack a means to transport oxygen, that you wouldn't need it. (posting here since jaganatha thread is too old)

Based on the fact that the ability doesn't say anything about negating the function of your now metal blood, and Xefas in rather good at not including things in vague wording if he means it he would have said you no longer need to breathe. I would say it bears no effect on breathing.

Also if anyone is interested I'd like to continue the PBP. Currently it seems only one guy is really wanting to continue it.

UrsusArctos

2016-05-04, 09:06 PM

GODKILLING IDOL FRAME requires BRAZEN OBELUS TEGUMENT as a prerequisite. At level four, you can choose to grow a helmet with your armor. By doing this, you lose your need to breathe and eat. If Tegument removed the need to breathe, this would be redundant.

ThreadNecro5

2016-05-08, 05:48 PM

Example/Idea 1: Character looks at a barrage of arrows coming at him. Takes a pose and smiles at their attempts to hit him. Proceeds to roll a charisma check to convince himself he's untouchable(higher level ability may trivialize or negate the need of this roll), and then continues laughing as suddenly his AC increases dramatically.

Example/Idea 2: The character is confronted by an assailant. The character proceeds to proclaim that the assailant is inferior, and explains why, then (after a charisma check) pimp slaps them into unconsciousness.

Example/Idea 3: The character walking through a party wearing their best (and prized) dress proceeds to spill something on her dress. Lacking the ability to protect it or spin it (insert check) in her favor she attempts to clean it. After attempting to clean it, and realizing she can't, they proceed to run from the room screaming and foaming at the mouth until this crime against fashion is rectified.

Example/Idea 4: Someone attempts to defame the Cool Dood that is the character. The character proceeds (with a check) simply adjust to the action in the most impressive way and his fame multiplies.

Example/Idea 5: The character's hair is flawless and worthy of being called art. Someone attempting to dethrone him attempts to cut it off. The Character laughs and proclaims his hair is so beautiful, reality itself will keep it from being cut, and so the character's hair suddenly becomes like adamant, breaking the razor of the attacker.

Example/Idea 6: The character gets into an arm wrestling contest with an anthropomorphic african elephant who took levels in war hulk for all the strength. Rolls a charisma check to convince himself he's stronger, but fails, and now lays broken on the ground, his self-esteem and grandeur broken in his mind. He must fix this by beating the elephant man and prove he is superior. And, he will stop at nothing to do so.

To sum it up. It takes the Glorious/Humbled mechanic from the Dinyomi, makes it a bit more flexible in terms of difficulty to upkeep. Then focuses the abilities on giving superficial things more power than the real things. It emphasizes the character believing he's superior without making him power hungry. To harden it even more, the classes abilities should be (in some form or another) be focused on meeting or allowing you to meet the rule of cool (http://allthetropes.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Cool).

This sound like a cool idea. As an idea how about something that allows the character to temporarily erase others from existence due to the logic 'I'm so impressive none would oppose me!'

Also the mythos I posted last time have been adjusted:
The Price of Loyalty
The Chrimatia takes no penalty on preforming a rushed Diplomacy check if they pay 10GP per creature they wish to not take the penalty on during the action (this appears in the possession of the being that diplomacy is being used on). Additionally by paying an amount of GP equal to the creatures total HDx50 you may improve the creatures attitude by one step after the result of the Diplomacy check is determined, this may not raise a creatures attitude to you to Fanatic.

Basic Manifestations:
Actually Decent Fellows
You may preform a rushed Diplomacy check on a number of creatures within 100ft at a time equal to your Charisma Modifier as a Full-Round Action. For the check their attention is temporarily drawn to you so that they hear you out.

Under New Employ
Your diplomacy checks may raise a creatures Attitude to you to Fanatic, as detailed under the rules for Epic Level Characters. All creatures who are Fanatic to you are considered your property.

This now prevents you from buying your way up to fanatic.

The Toss of a Coin
Prerequisites: -

The saying of ‘throwing money at a problem’ is an odd one, and while the Wyrm more often won its battles though a more metaphorical display of wealth the Chrimatia is quite capable of doing both at the same time.
You may make a ranged touch attack to throw a handful of money (as well as likely other assorted gems, ingots, and assorted valuables that get increasingly mixed in as the value of thrown items increases) as a standard action. You choose any single dice to roll up to a D100 (a D100 is treated as one dice in this case), the creature takes an amount of damage equal to the result of the dice roll and you lose an equal amount of GP.

If you cannot pay the full amount equal to the dice roll, you instead take the same amount of damage, that cannot be healed in any way until you pay an amount of GP equal to the amount you could not pay +50%. Thanks to the higher grade of the thrown valuables (e.g. As the value of the thrown handful increases the concentration of more valuable coins and gems raises) if the dice rolled is a D8 or larger dice this damage bypasses DR X/Silver. If the dice is a D20 or larger the damage also bypasses DR X/Adamantine.

This now has fluff (something I intended to add to the mythos when I revise them before posting the class) and I have caped the dice to a D100 maximum.

roko10

2016-05-29, 02:34 AM

Bluydee

2016-05-29, 10:52 PM

Hey, so I'm working again on the Kalthorros (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?456529-quot-Fall-down-seven-times-Stand-up-eight-quot-Mythos&p=20046219#post20046219) over here, and I would like to have some people PEACHing it.

Flesh-And-Bones Enchanting Will has a typo, unless it really is meant to say "You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Constitution modifier when calculating Will saves. You do not automatically fail Fortitude saves on a roll of natural 1.". Also, personally, I'd feel like someone running off of determination and grit would be based off Charisma or Constitution, not Wisdom. Most of the people on your banner aren't particularly wise and the posterboy for the class in my opinion is definitely Simon or Kamina, and neither of them were as notably wise as their force of personality.

roko10

2016-05-30, 03:01 PM

^D'oh. That was meant to be Fortitude saves. Thanks for that.

I wasn't exactly sure about Wisdom myself, but I feel that there's a bit of Charisma oversaturation in Mythos right now and not enough Wisdom representation.

Maybe just allow then to use their highest stat modifier to calculate Grit?

Jakman217

2016-05-30, 03:56 PM

I wasn't exactly sure about Wisdom myself, but I feel that there's a bit of Charisma oversaturation in Mythos right now and not enough Wisdom representation.

Maybe just allow then to use their highest stat modifier to calculate Grit?

I kind of agree that there is a bit of oversaturation with CHA, but I agree with the last guy that wisdom is a poor choice. I personally think either Constitution or Strength, over wisdom. Being able to chose any I think is ripe for both abuse and misrepresentation as most of them I don't see as Dextrous, Intelligent, or Wise. They really are either unstoppable strength, unending endurance, or so wielding the charisma of a god. Charisma could be dropped without too much harm to the base idea, partially because they are determinators, and also because between the the dinyomi and the megalieti the charismatic determined leader is kind of covered.

PeacefulOak

2016-06-02, 12:29 AM

Jakman217

2016-06-02, 08:22 AM

Or, if none of the primary statistics fully fit the bill (which I feel may be the case), why not look at secondary statistics? Is there a statistic that represents overall determination, force of presence, and the ability to overcome what is thrown at them? Why yes, there is! It's the Will Saving Throw (And possibly Fortitude)!

Why not use some portion of the character's Will and/or Fortitude Saving throw modifiers to determine their Grit?

... You know when you point it out, it sounds genius to me. I agree with this guy. I suggest fortitude personally, though will could easily be used as well. I would suggest choosing one, but you could choose both, or consolidate them together into a determination save that covers both.

Gideon Falcon

2016-06-02, 06:27 PM

Jakman217

2016-06-02, 06:59 PM

Zenna

2016-06-02, 11:36 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476165-The-Mythic-Dragonslayer&p=20337956
Hey guys, ive tweaked my class a bit. Your right it did feel a bit too much like mythic dragon disciple so i trimmed down the split between dragon and hero and made it easier to switch between them
the basic concept ive got for this is a knight marked by fate slayed a dragon at the cost of himself and their souls mixed
Could I get some thoughts

PeacefulOak

2016-06-03, 12:51 AM

So, forgive me for being a bit negative, but the Mythos system has always confused me- I've tried looking at the classes, but I can never make heads or tails of how the abilities would actually work, and it always seems as if the classes are only half-finished. I think part of it may be the formatting, which makes it difficult to distinguish sections from each other, but other than that I really can't understand what's causing so much confusion. Seeing how popular the system is, it makes me suspect that it's more something about me than the system itself, but I still just can't figure out what's really going on.
Perhaps if you could figure out some way of stream-lining or simplifying the process, possibly by dividing each Mythos ability (which all seem to be very large, complicated structures) into smaller abilities that are easier to keep track of, it might be more appealing to folks like me, assuming I'm not just crazy.

I think some part of the confusion comes from the design process of Mythos, or at least the design process as I have experienced it, both personally and in reading these threads here. With a standard D&D class, you have a concept, and a structured path that the concept follows. Your Paladin is a holy warrior, who becomes more holy and warriorish as he progresses. He makes decisions when it comes to feats, or to spell selection, or maybe alternative class features, but in the end, he's a Paladin.

A Mythos Class is a story, told a thousand times, with variations that occur as a result of that repetition. It is the essence of a hero or a villain, and how that essence develops into the end result is something that builds organically as the character levels up. This creates some of that sensation of chaos that you perceive, as many of the Mythos at each level of progression are telling parts of the story that may be completely contradicting!

If I were to make one criticism of the Mythos system as a whole, it is the built-in concept of buying additional mythos. What I have seen is that this leads to two potential problems, one on the design side, one on the play side. The design side problem is that, assuming that people can buy additional mythos makes it somewhat less important to ensure that each mythos have an equivalent but different impact on the way the character is played. The possibility of "less useful mythos" comes in, and becomes acceptable. On the play side, power creep is definitely a thing. Playing a Mythos character that has had to choose it's mythos to either build towards an end result, or to achieve a broad balance of abilities, is very different from playing a Mythos character that has access to literally every mythos and excellency available to it. At that point, what you are playing is less an extension of the story of the Titan and more a creature that is almost an embodiment of the full story of the Titan itself.

VoodooPaladin

2016-06-03, 01:35 AM

On the play side, power creep is definitely a thing.

For what it's worth, I've felt for years that innovated Mythos are extremely undercosted. Get All-Consuming Rampage Release for 1000 gp and 250 xp? That's a whirling barbarian's rage for the cost of a +1 sword, before the manifestation that gives you Powerful Build. Psychotic Sapience-Brutalizing Devolution gives a character with 8 Int a +3 bonus to Will saves at the same cost, and Vomit Forth Apocalyptica comes compliments of the chef. What do items give that Mythos don't outstrip, gp-for-gp?

Lanth Sor

2016-06-07, 06:10 PM

Something Xefas brought up before and i agree has alot of merit is a new non XP non Gold system to quantify mythos power. Using mythos points as something you cant gain through the means listed but instead something more ephemeral the DM must define.Then they can provide bonuses to any no mythic characters based on a similar basis say maybe the "hero" soul

roko10

2016-06-10, 02:52 PM

Fizban

2016-06-12, 07:02 AM

I've tried looking at the classes, but I can never make heads or tails of how the abilities would actually work
Try thinking of it like a Warlock: you have four grades of main abilities (Mythos instead of Invocations). There's also Excellencies on the side, which are drawn from a different pool and are usually not as level-based, like a list of bonus feats or rogue special abilities. Remember that all Mythos classes have full BAB: regardless of special abilities, their first skill is hitting stuff. Edit: as apparently everyone is quick to point out, some have been made with lower BAB.

But where invocations are usually just "spell X at-will," Mythos can give you all sorts of stuff ranging from feats and flat bonuses to special abilities or entire new mechanical subsystems, and can include sub-choices. You take a Mythos, you get whatever it says you get, often an entirely unique class feature. When you see Basic or Advanced that means you get more stuff than just the initial whatever. For Basic you choose one thing and get it right now, for Advanced you pick now but don't get it until next level, and if it has both Basic and Advanced then you get both (Basic now and Advanced next level).

Most mythos classes give you one Mythos at every other level. So on an odd level up you'll pick a Mythos, and one Basic option if it has any. On an even level up you'll pick the Advanced option for whatever Mythos you took last level, if it has any. When you get access to higher grades of Mythos you'll see that they often come in families, where you need the lower level version before you can take the higher. Finally, you can use Mythos Points to learn more Mythos, learn extra Basic and Advanced options from those that you already know, or learn more Excellencies, but how you gain those Mythos Points depends highly on your class and Mythos (there's no base method, you need to find one available to you and take it).

With the usual progression you end up with 4 Exceptional, 3 Fantastic, 3 Legendary, and 2 Exalted Mythos, and one Excellency at almost every level (totaling 14 at the end)

I'd recommend reading one of Xefas's classes first, but not the Teramach or Kathodos since they've got lots of fiddly stuff going on. I found the Olethrofex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317067-quot-Your-pain-shall-be-legendary-quot) much easier to get into, some of it's abilities are long but there's no worrying about meshing rage mechanics or figuring out what all those elements mean.

PeacefulOak isn't wrong about the system of buying Mythos complicating things. It's easy to build a character with just what you get from your normal level-ups, not many more choices than a Warlock or martial adept in fact, but you'll find that many Mythos pretty much assume you will be buying more than one of their Basic/Advanced abilities, and while there are usually a lot of cool upgrade paths and potential combos you just won't have room for everything unless you buy. At lower levels 1-9 you're pretty limited, but once you can reliably do whatever you need to do for Mythos Points and have enough WBL (you usually have to burn cash), a high level Mythos character will have basically all the Exceptional/Fantastic tier abilities they want, and probably a few extra Legendary tier options as well. Of course if a Warlock could buy Invocations you can bet they'd do it too.

Lanth Sor

2016-06-15, 10:58 AM

So, instead of trying to salvage the unfocused trainwreck that is the Kalthy, I made the Mythic Mad Scientist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490919-Mythos-They-Told-Me-I-Was-Mad-To-Try!&p=20876701#post20876701) instead. Please PEACH.

Speaking of which sorry mines taking so long I have been a little bit of every where and redesigning the mechanics behind the system seemed to be required before I could continue.

Temotei

2016-06-16, 12:16 AM

Remember that all Mythos classes have full BAB: regardless of special abilities, their first skill is hitting stuff.

Not all of them--some of the ones by people other than Xefas aren't full BAB to signify that hitting isn't a first resort for those classes or because it's just not necessary.

Allnightmask

2016-06-16, 09:24 AM

I can't be bothered to dig through all the threads but I remember Xefas saying not all mythos class are full BAB it's just what he has written so far requires it for their roles.
Anakitos is the idea of the unstoppable protagonist, the Bellator is Fighter+, Jagannatha is the hate engine, Olethrofex is the angel of death or the alpha zombie, Syntrofos is born of the first thing to cause death via violence and continues that tradition, and the Teramach is pretty much all melee all the time. It is only my mental block with monks that makes the Kothodos having full attack bonuses seem weird.
Write what seems right but don't think all mythos classes need full BAB and all good saves, it's not a requirement.

DracoDei

2016-06-16, 10:15 PM

Seconded. My work in progress (which I may be getting a chance to playtest on these forums soonish!) has POOR BAB although some of their options improve that under very specific circumstances (AoOs, Disarm/Sunder, isolated from the rest of the party.

Fizban

2016-06-17, 03:49 AM

The point still stands for all of them that do: if you're lost in a pile of mythos that don't seem to do anything on their own, check the BAB because it's probably supposed to be hitting things.

Zarthrax

2016-06-19, 01:32 AM

Had a vague idea for a Mythos Prestige Class, playing off of the Mythic Vestige. Figured I'd consult the sages before I try to narrow it down.

Ideal Entry Point- Mythos Class 4/Binder 1 with Improved Binding, possess Mythic Vestige feat.

Progression- halves acquisition rate of Mythos and Excellencies, maintains progression for intensity of Mythos (so you can still get higher level ones, just not nearly as many), progresses Spirit Binding as a Binder.

First Vestige Bound every day must be 'yourself'. If 'you' possess Special Requirements for binding, you must meet them. Ignore Special Requirements does nothing here.

Ideal Capstone- You and DM create a second Vestige of yourself of higher level, you may bind either the original or the higher level one for free daily. Frees up your (probable) two slots for Binding shenanigans.

Thoughts?

khadgar567

2016-06-19, 06:34 AM

Zarthrax

2016-06-19, 04:29 PM

you gotta need solid vestige making mythoses and watch out for warlock dip with custom vestige shenanigans( basicly op version of naberious so more hell fire warlock damage

.........

I'm certain this says something, I'm just not sure what.

Temotei

2016-06-19, 06:44 PM

.........

I'm certain this says something, I'm just not sure what.

Basically, make sure the vestiges that can be made are good, but not silly OP, I think is the gist.

Zarthrax

2016-06-19, 07:02 PM

Basically, make sure the vestiges that can be made are good, but not silly OP, I think is the gist.

Ah, much clearer.

I think what I would do is provide a couple of examples of such. Like the character I'm making the class for is basically Aym, so making an upgraded version of her should be easy. As mentioned though, the ultimate arbiter of said created vestige is whatever DM you submit it to.

Lanth Sor

2016-06-24, 10:31 AM

New Feat: The Sleeping Mountain Legacy
Prerequisite: One Mythos; Humanoid, Giant, or Monstrous Humanoid type; Must have at least one of the following traits be a permanent aspect of you: Large or larger size, have the Powerful Build racial ability, or have giant blood within you.
Benefit: Choose one Mythos-granting class that you have levels in. You may treat the following Mythos as if they belonged to that class. Your maximum hit points increase by 1 for every [Epic] feat, and every feat that references a "Grapple" or the act of "Grappling" in its benefits (excluding this one), that you possess. Note that unless you are actually of an Epic level (21 or higher), there will be almost no way that you can gain more [Epic] feats except from the following Mythos.

If you somehow lose this feat, or no longer qualify for it, you cease to gain the benefits of the granted Mythos until you regain this feat or qualify for it once more.

So do you not qualify if you get powerful build form a non race source?

nikkoli

2016-06-28, 08:20 PM

Temotei

2016-06-28, 09:12 PM

There's Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun. That would probably qualify you for "have giant blood within you" as well. It doesn't technically give you all of powerful build's benefits, but still. Some of them.

Lanth Sor

2016-07-11, 12:04 PM

I'm working on an idea for the mage where you use essentia to gain access to spells in a way similar to investing in the incarnum feats works. You would invest essentia equal to the spells level to gain access. The mythos would be similar to the bellator discipline mythos in It would grant access to spell subtype each time taken(cold, healing, compulsion). And you couldn't pick a spell if you don't have all the subtypes. The biggest concern is I'd like to make them at will eventually but I'm struggling with the lower end.

Kaje

2016-08-13, 05:04 PM

Jakman217

2016-08-14, 09:11 PM

It looks like someone was in the process of transferring all of this to a Mythos Compendium Wiki, but the project seems to have died. If that is a thing people people are interested in, I'd be willing to start it up again.

That would've been I but you may take up the banner. I stopped due to a lack of support from the rest of the creators, distractions coming up, and little interest from people willing to help. You can go ahead and start updating if you want.

nikkoli

2016-08-22, 02:29 PM

Can you further enhance weapon formed from Element-Forged Geomach Arsenal, such as adding weapon properties to it? This question is posed by the omphalion belletor player in my game. He is looking for getting the weapon enchanted by someone else, since he didn't take the belletor crafting mythos, and I'm not letting them use starting gold to have ALL OF THE MYTHOS at lvl 13.

Vauron

2016-08-22, 04:29 PM

The best option is to let your player make use of whatever means that the Bellator has to get enchantments on their weapons. Lets see.... Huh, the Bellator only has a mythos for templates. Well, as a start you should probably let them make EFGA weapons with templates.

As to enchantments, while I never posted it, as I was never really happy with how it turned out, but I did make a Kathados mythos for adding weapon enchantments unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and stuff made by Element-Forged Geomach Arsenal. I'll post what I have and offer a few suggestions on adapting it to the Bellator.

Fantastic Mythos:
Apeiron Tellus Largess
Apeiron Tellus Largess
Prerequisite: Elemental-Fisted Pugilist Style or Element-Forged Geomach Arsenal
The Kathados gains a pool of bonus points that can be used to grant special abilities from the list below to their natural weapons, unarmed attacks, and weapons created through a Kathados mythos. The size of your pool is equal to 1/5 your BAB. The Kathados can change which special abilities are granted by this mythos with a full round action. Weapons created by a Kathados mythos can have the abilities from the mythos applied as part of the action of creating the weapon. Weapon abilities from this mythos can only be put on weapons that are appropriate for the ability. You couldn't have a Keen Warhammer, for instance.
+1
Acidic Burst
Chargebreaker
Charging
Corrosive
Defending
Distance
Flaming
Frost
Ghost Touch
Impact
Keen
Maiming
Merciful
Mighty Cleaving
Precise
Seeking
Shock
Thundering
Wounding
+2
Banishing
Collision
Disruption
Flaming Burst
Force
Icy Burst
Impedance
Parrying
Shocking Burst
+3
Speed
+4
Brilliant Energy

First, as far as converting it to the Bellator is concerned, you may wish to alter the list of abilities it can grant. I mostly gave the Kathados abilities that were elemental or shape based and did not have uses/day, which you may not feel fits with an Omphalion that can only make weapons from one element. Additionally, if they picked up a Favored Enemy somehow, Bane (that Favored Enemy) may be appropriate.

Second, I have a bad nose for balance. If you think this overpowered than consider only giving a handle of abilities initially and requiring your player to get others through the same means he'd need to use to get a template.

Theseventh

2016-09-15, 08:12 AM

So if I might offer up this Fantastic tier Mythos for The Archikos for consideration.

Words that Warp the World
Prerequisite: In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall: Henge of the Ancients
[Pristine]

Everyone knows the words of the Fey hold power. Power over the minds of men, and power over the wit's of women. Few people consider however the power they hold over the wonders of the world.

When standing within your ring that is currently benefiting from the Henge of the Ancients augmentations you may utilize the True Speak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-(or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night)) skill with an amount of pseudo ranks equal to your HD-3, and may substitute Cha for Int for the purpose of the skill. Your effective Truenamer level is equal to your Mythos level.

Note: While Truenaming would indeed benefit from the abilities of Henge of the Ancients, I don't believe any incantations, or TS 'spells' in general gain or lose anything based on Truenamer level, aside from how high you can augment it. It's biggest cap is your actually ability to raise the DC and make the check so that is based on your skill points.

Basic
The First Words: You learn a single first level Incantation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4915307&postcount=4). This manifestation can be taken 3 times.

Advanced
The Second Words: You learn a single second level Incantation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4915307&postcount=4). This manifestation can be taken 3 times.

What do people think? If this is well recieved I will make a continuation of the branch for the higher tier Mythos.
Future plans include Recitations that Rewrite Reality and Vocals that Violate the Vital. For recitations and Utterances respectively. I like alliterations.

Lanth Sor

2016-09-16, 09:29 AM

roko10

2016-10-07, 12:21 AM

It's probably good to mention that the Proidos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490919-Mythos-They-Told-Me-I-Was-Mad-To-Try!) is updating again.

Theseventh

2016-10-11, 12:58 PM

It's probably good to mention that the Proidos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490919-Mythos-They-Told-Me-I-Was-Mad-To-Try!) is updating again.

Cool what can we expect to see in the new update?

On an unrelated note, here is another fantastic tier Archikos Mythos. Once I get a third one down I will repost them in the actual Archikos thread for easier viewing. Or you can just swipe them up and put them right into the mythos list Lanth.

Recitations that Rewrite Reality
Prerequisite: In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall: Henge of the Ancients
[Pristine]

What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name smell just as sweet? Not if that rose chose to rewrite it's name with the power it held.

When standing within your ring that is currently benefiting from the Henge of the Ancients augmentations you may utilize the True Speak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-(or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night)) skill with an amount of pseudo ranks equal to your HD-3, and may substitute Cha for Int for the purpose of the skill. Your effective Truenamer level is equal to your Mythos level.

Note: Truenaming counts as a 'language dependent effect' for the purpose of the bonus supplied by Henge of the Ancients. This increase in caster level translates to an increase in Truenamer level.

Basic
My name is Anna: You learn a single first level Recitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4915310&postcount=5).This manifestation may be taken twice.

Advanced
My name is Anna-Marie: You learn a single second level Recitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4915310&postcount=5). This manifestation may be taken twice.

Stone Song: Your Stone Henge continues to sing your song after you have stopped. Once you no longer spend a swift action every round speaking your recitation, it continues to echo off of your stones for 1 minute a level. You are treated as if still under the effects of the recitation during this time. If you choose to start a new recitation then the echo stops.

So what do you think? The idea of the second advanced manifestation is to allow the Archikos a little mobility outside her circle. Setup a recitation and then free to wander for a bit. Remember though that you only actually have the truespeak skill inside the circle so if you want to start up a new recitation or renew the old one you have to come back to the circle. What do you think about the duration? Too long? Too short? I intend to bump it up with the next tier of these. So next level it will likely be 10 minutes a level, and eventually 1 hour a level.

Not sure what I want to do with these Truespeak mythos as an idea though. I can either tie all 3, and their later branches, together into a whole True Speak sub class thing inside the Archikos. Or I can make each of them mutually exclusive. So you got to focus on just recitations, vocalations or Utterances. If I do the former, I will make one of them the 'base' mythos. Likely this recitation mythos and have the others build off that. For the time being the above assumes each will be it's own thing, thus be tied to the Henge of the Ancients.

Theseventh

2016-10-11, 01:42 PM

And because I was inspired, may as well put this out now.

Vocals that Violate the Vital
Prerequisite: In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall: Henge of the Ancients
[Pristine]

Never tell a Fey your name. With it they will weave treacherous magics over your mind and soul!

When standing within your ring that is currently benefiting from the Henge of the Ancients augmentations you may utilize the True Speak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?90961-The-Way-Words-Work-(or-Truenaming-that-doesn-t-make-me-cry-myself-to-sleep-at-night)) skill with an amount of pseudo ranks equal to your HD-3, and may substitute Cha for Int for the purpose of the skill. Your effective Truenamer level is equal to your Mythos level.

Your absolute limit is equal to (Cha mod x Archikos Level), and is calculated real time. So if you step in to the circle at level 5 with 20 Cha, you would have a limit of 25. If you then suffer 2 cha damage your limit is now 20. If instead of damage you instead had a buff cast on you raising your score to 24 your new limit would be 35. Targets that were under your limit at the time of casting but are no longer due to a change in cha score do not have the effect removed until it would normally end.

Note: Truenaming counts as a 'language dependent effect' for the purpose of the bonus supplied by Henge of the Ancients. This increase in caster level translates to an increase in Truenamer level.

Basic
It's not what you said, it's how you said it. You learn a single first level Utterance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4915301&postcount=3). This manifestation may be taken 3 times.

Advanced
Sticks and Stones You learn a single second level Utterance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=4915301&postcount=3). This manifestation may be taken 3 times.

No name? No Problem!: When using an Utterance on a target within the area of your Circle, you may add your Cha score to your absolute limit.

There we go, the last of the Fantastic Tier True Speak stuff. I changed up how Absolute Limit is calculated a bit compared to a full on True Namer. Less static and prone to jumping around, but by being initially weaker it has the option of going up when buffed. Also included an advanced manifestation that ups your AL when a target is foolish enough to step into your circle. Remember though, a willing target can always be effected by an utterance if they want to be. Even when above your Absolute Limit! I suppose I probably should bother to do the busy work to include something in there for people who already have some Truenaming class levels and thus an AL. But frankly if you are dipping this deep into a mythos class for this, or this late in a Truespeak class because suddenly you found your calling I think you might need to reconsider your character.

Kaje

2016-10-12, 11:42 AM

Even though nobody was receptive back when I suggested it, I still keep coming back to the idea of a Mythic Commoner, with representatives like Waldo, Jimmy Olsen, Doctor Who companions and every Martin Freeman character.

PeacefulOak

2016-10-12, 12:09 PM

What I hear you saying is that you have an idea that is awesome in your mind. My advice to you is to start writing it down. Figure out it's mechanics and how it would function or feel. Then post it, with all of your energy and excitement, and inspire us to the glory of your concept.

Kaje

2016-10-12, 12:52 PM

ThreadNecro5

2016-10-12, 03:41 PM

Honestly, I have no feel for mechanics or how to expand it into an entire Mythos class, but I envision it having (ex.)invisibility, buffing (simply because its allies are just better than it), and probably some great destiny it was never aware of.

As a couple ideas, just start writing and wait and see where things develop over time. Also you could try trawling over TVTropes just looking for potential banner character you can base some things off of, besides the established themes.

Consider making it pathetically weak, like a d4HD and commoner save progression and BAB, but with the ability to revive themselves on death X times per day, and have some mythos that exploit this (sort of like the character is not one individual, but is instead every nameless NPC in the campaign).

if you go for the 'respawns' idea consider things like allowing them to 'spend' unused spawns to improve their next incarnation, e.g. giving it a prior history giving the character appropriate skill bonuses, or getting to start with, low level class features of some class, get to take over a named NPC, and that sort of thing.

Other Ideas:
Something that always guarantees at least a minimum success/ability to contribute on things e.g. always gain a small bonus on skills, always be able to hit with attacks on a natural 15+ and deal at least one point of damage, ignoring DR and the like (the commoner is always there assigning, but never the focus).

As for the mechanical side of the buffing perhaps you can take a -x penalty (equal to ranks of Mythos they can use?) to grant a similar bonus to your allies. this would also synergise with the above idea.

The invisibility idea reminded me of a minor character in a webnovel I recently read called Worm, who basically had an aura that those inside of couldn't consider his as a threat, and just treat him as a harmless bystander. Perhaps combine this with a 'face in the crowd' style teleport?

SirBellias

2016-10-22, 09:48 AM

I'm playing the Jagganatha in a game on next week. I'll tell y'all how it goes!

spwack

2016-10-22, 08:25 PM

I'm playing the Jagganatha in a game on next week. I'll tell y'all how it goes!

Oh man, tell me everything, how did you manage this?

SirBellias

2016-10-22, 11:26 PM

Oh man, tell me everything, how did you manage this?

Well, we're playing a game with multiple parties (?), and one of them has a different overpowered homebrew and a psion with 42 intelligence. As the leader of Team Evil (tm) I saw fit to ask the GM if I could level the playing field. I do believe I am still failing in that regard. We're all level five.

Also, do you think stacking the size increases from the Mythic Kobold and Jagganatha is viable? Because I really want to.

The DM may not know what's hitting him, but I went over the basics with him and he's convinced it will be an interesting campaign.

VoodooPaladin

2016-10-23, 04:24 PM

do you think stacking the size increases from the Mythic Kobold and Jagganatha is viable?

At level five, wouldn't you still just be medium size? Or is this a long-term prospect?

SirBellias

2016-10-23, 08:11 PM

At level five, wouldn't you still just be medium size? Or is this a long-term prospect?

Yeah, just medium size. You have to have goals, though, besides Murdering the Gods and Toppling their Thrones. It may get in the way of the campaign as planned (escape the Underdark), but being fairly conspicuous is kind of the point of the class, if I remember correctly. So I'm going to try it and see what happens.

Edit: Also, I'm assuming that the reason there are stat bonuses called out in the MONUMENT TO A HEAVEN RAINING BLOOD and HOPE-BANISHING BRASS COLOSSUS Mythos is because you don't get the stat changes from a natural size change like the Mythic Kobold suggests you do. Is that a fair assumption? It seems a bit cheesy to assume otherwise.

Rogthnor

2016-10-26, 05:16 PM

Has anyone done a mythic artificer? Since these are exalted inspired it seems like we'd need alchemicals

roko10

2016-10-26, 10:32 PM

Has anyone done a mythic artificer? Since these are exalted inspired it seems like we'd need alchemicals

I have one, but I'm struggling to make new Mythos for it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490919-Mythos-They-Told-Me-I-Was-Mad-To-Try!)

PeacefulOak

2016-10-26, 11:03 PM

I have started updating the eoteras, link in my signature. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

ThreadNecro5

2016-10-29, 09:48 AM

So, the Chrimatia is dead, for now at least, I've ran out of ideas.

I'm starting work on the Típoparchi that I have mentioned a few times in the past. I'm stuck when it comes to banner characters for the concept of oblivion and nothingness.

Tipoparchi Titan lore:
The Titans were living stories, each defined itself by a legend of their own writing before being stuck into the cosmic foundation of existence. The Young One was not like this. It didn’t -couldn’t- define itself. In a fit of desperation one day, desperate to be something, tore itself open to pull something out. It failed. It kept going, tearing deeper and deeper inside until it ran out of more to tear free and so continued to wrench apart its hollowness thirsting for something to live by. One time when it again failed to pull something out, it did not fail. It found nothing. It was Nothing. The Nothing would have been born this instant if it existed.

In the primordial chaos before law there was a space where nothing happened. This void was the full stop at the end of the legend, the all consuming singularity that was ‘The end.’ that spread into one tale after another as more began and grew. In the end the final fate of the One Who Became Nothing was ever in question, was it consumed by the nothing within and undone?, or did it truly achieve its one dream of becoming and mark its legend on the universe?

My current list is:
Manus - Dark Souls (video game)

Psion Minmax - Goblins (webcomic)

Gluttony - Fullmetal Alchemist (animae)

Temotei

2016-10-30, 07:20 PM

I'm stuck when it comes to banner characters for the concept of oblivion and nothingness.

Sithis (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/tesfanon/images/c/cc/Sithis.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121230192526) would be a good one, from The Elder Scrolls series (of video games). Here (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sithis)'s a link to lore.

There's probably something in Yu-Gi-Oh!, right? I don't know the show past season 1 very well, and it's been a long time since I've seen any of it period, so I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

EDIT: Oh, and Xemnas, from Kingdom Hearts, has power over nothingness.

Googling it gives this (http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Nothingness_Manipulation) page. If you scroll down to known users, you can look at all of those names and see if any fit.

vasharanpaladin

2016-10-30, 09:45 PM

There's probably something in Yu-Gi-Oh!, right? I don't know the show past season 1 very well, and it's been a long time since I've seen any of it period, so I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Darkness (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Nightshroud) ("Nightshroud" in the dub) is literally described as representing the "darkness of nihilism." Despair, oblivion and nothingness here.

ThreadNecro5

2016-10-31, 08:10 PM

Thank you to those who have offered suggestions. I have narrowed things down to the following for the banner:

Manus - Dark Souls (video game)

Psion Minmax - Goblins (webcomic)

Nightshroud - Yu-Gi-Oh GX (Anime)

Sithis - The Elder Scrolls (video game series).

Xemnas, - Kingdom Hearts (video game series).

Chakravartin - Asura’s Wrath (Video game)

Cream - JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure (Anime)

Baraggan Louisenbairn - Bleach (Anime)

In terms of how the base chassis of the class is developing Below I will post the two class features that diverge from the standard Mythos setup (they are still mid-development, with areas I'm currently working on denoted by a ?). Suggestions are welcome.

Unto Nothing
The legend of the Nothing is one of slow endless grind to oblivion and the void beyond, and its story is not of happenings, or even endings, but off ever pervasive nothing. Thus each Mythos has an ability not unlike a Manifestation called a Degradation that is unique to to and is an expansion off its effects, but taking it comes at a cost, a limitation as the Tipoparchi looses some aspect of themselves to the legend. Taking a Mythos’ Degradation is a free action that may be taken at any time.

Additionally as the legend of Nothing suffices the Tipoparchi the land around them begins to degrade as they do, this is represented by some Mythos having the [Void] label. These Mythos have effects that are part of an aura granted by this class feature with a size equal to the Tipoparchis class level + the number of Degradations they have taken X10.

Additionally a Tipoparchi gain a Natural Armour bonus to AC equal to ?

Cease to Be
At 1st level, a Tipoparchi is immune to the harm caused by contact with a Sphere of Annihilation, able to move through it as if it was not there, all items they carry also benefit form this immunity. Additionally they gain a +4 bonus on saving throws to resist Energy Drain and to remove Negitive Levels.

At 3rd level, they gain immunity to Energy Drain and Negative Levels. Additionally ?

At 5th level, they ?

vasharanpaladin

2016-10-31, 08:13 PM

Chakravartin's mantra is Creation, aka the opposite of nothing.

ThreadNecro5

2016-11-01, 09:55 AM

Chakravartin's mantra is Creation, aka the opposite of nothing.

True, I was focussing mostly on the final battle with the whole 'will destroy the word and everyone on it' thing, a Chakravartin style build would have Broken [Mythic Patron] Amalgam or something. That and in the final battle Chakravartin and it's abilities use an aesthetic that I felt appropriate to the Típoparchi. He was also listed on the page Temotei linked to.

Lanth Sor

2016-11-08, 11:28 AM

The Magos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505479-quot-Power-is-only-valuable-if-it-can-be-harnessed-quot-Mythos-3-5-PF) is officially available ill be updating with new mythos soon. Please help with balance.

TimeLegend

2016-11-11, 06:28 AM

I don't know if anyone remembers but I've added some Mythos to the Steel Emporer Forge Master and improved the Immemorial Mythos of that class. I decided that it did need a little more power from what it originally had for such a high slot of mythos it was.

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19202887&postcount=757)

NineOfSpades

2016-12-07, 12:19 PM

Currently building up the Aedifex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505910-3-5-MYTHOS-quot-Look-on-my-works-ye-mighty-quot) A location-centric mythos class for those who think that world-building should be more literal. Most of the barebones are there, though obviously still plenty of fleshing out to do. If you've got a few minutes to take a look, stop by and feel free to give some feedback.

Yasahiro

2016-12-27, 10:40 PM

Have there been any plans or attempts made to port Mythos classes to 5e? I'm struggling with thinking of sub classes for them

Lanth Sor

2016-12-29, 04:08 PM

Not 100% but from what I've seen, 5E seems like a bad fit for them specially the STR based maddness of the teramach, if you completely reworked some of the bonuses maybe but base not so much.

Jakman217

2016-12-29, 06:24 PM

Considering that the two backbones of the mythos classes (IMO) are overpowered highly thematic abilities, and overpowered but by RAW valid builds, I'd say that 5e conversions are highly unlikely.

20 bucks says that if you do it yourself no one will complain though.

Valerem

2017-01-06, 06:27 PM

So, question. In the Bellator thread, I saw mention of 'Cross-Mythos Feats'... what are these, and where can they be found?

Xefas

2017-01-07, 12:43 AM

So, around Christmas, the motherboard in my PC blew out. I dunno the extent of the damages beyond that, but my computer was pretty old anyhow, so I'm going to wait and save up until I can afford a new rig, and then we'll see if my harddrives survived. All my RPG stuff was on them - hundreds of systems, lots of homebrew, and campaign information going back 10+ years. Sucks! Can't get at them. My phone is my whole internet right now (and public library computers).

But I've still got creative juices. And I've got paper. And I've got pencils. So, I'm going to write. And then I can transfer anything of note back onto a computer once I have one. And I don't see any point in writing for, or rewriting, content that is currently in harddrive limbo. Doesn't feel good. Best to do something new and different.

How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?

Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?

So, question. In the Bellator thread, I saw mention of 'Cross-Mythos Feats'... what are these, and where can they be found?

In a spoiler over here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340811-Titans-of-the-Mythos-Subsystem)

Zale

2017-01-07, 01:21 AM

Valerem

2017-01-07, 05:14 AM

VoodooPaladin

2017-01-07, 07:29 AM

Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting.

If it could be done better outside of D&D, then it should be. I'd be happy to read anything you want to put out, even if it entails having to learn a new system.

Xefas

2017-01-07, 03:04 PM

Alright, so I've done some thinking, and I'm getting an idea of some of the mechanical features I want to have in, working title: Mythopoeia.

I'll talk about one in particular, by first going into the problem I believe that it alleviates. In many non-D&D RPGs, there is a mechanical incentive to state who your character is, and then roleplay what you've stated. For example, in Burning Wheel, you don't have to take a trait that says your character is a drunkard. But if you do choose to take that trait, you get [Stuff] for actually playing a drunkard, especially when you play a drunkard even when it makes it harder for your character to achieve their goals.

I think this is cool. It rewards a player for taking what they find interesting about their character and then unleashing it onto the story to hopefully make it more interesting, too. But, one thing that I have never seen addressed in any of the ridiculous amount of RPGs I've hoarded over the years, is a mechanic that does this for a character's traits that require other players to react to them in order to be fulfilled.

For example, say Player A is playing an old, wise, sagely sort of character. And Player B is playing a young, headstrong badass. Player A actually wants to be acknowledged as being sagely. He dispenses sagely advice to Player B, which probably involves Player B briefly acting not reckless and headstrong. Player B doesn't give a ****, because his character is faaar too young and headstrong to listen to that. On the flipside, Player B wants his edgy recklessness to inspire a reasonable amount of fear and concern in his party members. But Player A already feels left out because the kind of character he wants to play isn't being supported, so he says his character is far too old and grizzled to give a **** about Player B's recklessness. Now both players are frustrated, they may yet escalate until it becomes problematic for everyone at the table, and suddenly Avatar: The Last Airbender doesn't have Iroh and Zuko in it.

So, I want a mechanic where a player can say "I want X trait of my character to be occasionally acknowledged by the party." and that does not force - never, at all forces - but provides a small incentive for the other players to occasionally acknowledge that trait when it makes sense to them. After all, most of the time Zuko ignores his uncle's advice and does dumb **** anyway, and most of the time Iroh just rolls his eyes. But occasionally Zuko admits that his uncle was right all along because he is indeed very wise (even if no one is around), and Iroh does occasionally break down and show a great deal of unrestrained concern about his nephew's physical and emotional well-being.

I'm thinking of calling this Mythic Resonance. When two Mythic beings play into each others' stories as the Titans did, they gain power.

Some examples might be - When a character lets it be known, directly or indirectly, that they fear the Teramach's darkest self, or when they comfort the Teramach after they have done something horrifying while in a Rage, they achieve Mythic Resonance. When a character defers to the leadership of the Cynosure, or submits a gift to them for their favor, they achieve Mythic Resonance. When a character is struck with awe and wonder at the acts of the Anakitos, or loses to them in a contest of skill, they achieve Mythic Resonance.

But you only get the Resonance bonus once every X period of time. So there's no incentive to constantly be bending over backwards for someone else if it doesn't make sense for you to do so. But, every once in a while, when the time is right, you can make the Hulk's player feel good by having your Tony Stark thank god that he's on your side.

Thoughts?

PeacefulOak

2017-01-07, 04:37 PM

That sounds really interesting as a role playing reward mechanic. It encourages participation in the narrative of other characters, and also encourages a degree of character growth.

Are you thinking of staying D20 based in this system?

I had been thinking for a while that this subset of brew deserves to be a system. I'm excited that you are still invested in this.

Xefas

2017-01-07, 06:06 PM

Are you thinking of staying D20 based in this system?

Probably not. I want something with a curve, and likely smaller numbers. I've poked around anydice.com before, looking at different dice distributions, but at the end of the day it's probably going to be something with d6s. Everyone has d6s, and they're small, and they can make a curve.

Other thoughts I've had:

- Classes, but no levels. But Mythos will still have 'Tiers', so the gaming group can decide if they want to play as merely badass adventurers, exalted-tier earthshakers, or if they want to murder the gods and topple their thrones. Or whatever. And they can decide when they want to 'level up' to the next tier. And, ideally, there can be some form of advancement near-indefinitely at each Tier, or at least for quite a long time. Advancement, without levels, will largely be the accumulation of more Mythos.

- Perhaps some hybrid of hit points and a kind of injury system. Hit points alone are so swingy in D&D that I don't think they provide the kind of tension that I want. With hit points, you operate at full strength until you suddenly die (or lose consciousness), and while I like Anthols having healing powers, because recovering from wounds that would cripple a mortal is awesome and thematic, I feel like recovering from hit point loss doesn't feel all that great because missing those hit points wasn't doing anything to you in the first place.

On the other hand, I don't want an injury system that's too, uh, realistic, I suppose. Getting run through with a sword isn't something an Anthol should want, but I don't want to encourage a death spiral, whereby an injury inflicts a persistent penalty such that whoever takes the first real hit is facing a certain loss because their numbers can't keep up. In an evenly matched duel, I'd ideally like some back-and-forth, rather than an early decisive blow.

So I gotta think about how to do that.

- Cosmology-wise, I'm envisioning a hollow metal sphere. Running as a horizontal disk across the middle is the mortal world. Suspended from the bottom of the flat world are a series of tremendous chains, each holding up a single country-sized prison personalized to contain the Titan within. The sun, moon, and stars are attached to the inside face of the sphere, and rotate on a vast firmament mechanism, which the mortals perceive as the sky. When the sun dips beneath the horizon, it is moving under the world, creating day for the Titan-prisons held there, while the moon brings night above, and vice versa. The sun, moon, and (some of the) stars are the slumbering places for the Lawgivers, who are no longer active in the world, for each their own reason. Of the Titan's prisons, the mad Empyrean's hangs lowest, such that he is scorched by the passing of the sun each day.

On the outside of the sphere, at the very top is the City of the Gods where the Gods and their servants reside. Their sky is a storm of chaos, run through with the crystalline structure of the Betwixt, which separates them from the Beyond.

Seeing as how this is a setting where magic is not the answer to everything, movement between each realm is possible by physical, extraordinary means. A person can find (or dig) a stairwell leading from the Overworld down to its underside, and then climb down one of the chains to a Titan's prison. They can also climb one of the pillars that supports the firmament, then punch through the top of the firmament into the City of the Gods, or else sail to the end of the world and climb up the side. No one has ever done any of those things, and they're impossible, but there you go. The City of the Gods also has transport rails up to Betwixt (for reasons). And once you're there, the rules of reality have abraded to the point where you can jump into the sky and fall into the Beyond.

I would draw an MSpaint illustration for you all. But, y'know. Phone. Hopefully my explanation makes sense.

Jakman217

2017-01-07, 09:27 PM

Probably not. I want something with a curve, and likely smaller numbers. I've poked around anydice.com before, looking at different dice distributions, but at the end of the day it's probably going to be something with d6s. Everyone has d6s, and they're small, and they can make a curve.

*snip*

If you don't mind a bit of input I'd suggest taking a look at GURPS a bit, not for it's major systems, but mostly for it's rolling mechanics. I particularly think it's difficulty system is quite good, since it's a roll under and the difficulty levels are just + or - to your roll flat.

I could also see using some inspiration from it for damage stuff, but I'd say there'd probably need to be a scaling factor to increase the probably too low health. It has the ability to break limbs and cripple body parts and could probably be used for some inspiration.

As for the rest of GURPS, I'd say that's up to you.

khadgar567

2017-01-07, 10:17 PM

If you don't mind a bit of input I'd suggest taking a look at GURPS a bit, not for it's major systems, but mostly for it's rolling mechanics. I particularly think it's difficulty system is quite good, since it's a roll under and the difficulty levels are just + or - to your roll flat.

I could also see using some inspiration from it for damage stuff, but I'd say there'd probably need to be a scaling factor to increase the probably too low health. It has the ability to break limbs and cripple body parts and could probably be used for some inspiration.

As for the rest of GURPS, I'd say that's up to you.
he allready using exalted as main design chasis

Kymme

2017-01-08, 12:46 AM

How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?

Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?

I'll admit, there is a great deal of appeal in playing in a party balanced between Mythos and Full Casters and Psions and Artificers and having general high-op wackiness. I love the idea of being in a world where the party Bellator can outfight anything that the full casters can summon and lives in a one-man-army league of his own in a world of trolls and goblins. I love the idea of characters gaining powers that dovetails together disparate feats from dozens of sourcebooks in a graceful way that makes them effective and fun. Games like that excite me in ways that other games don't. Mythic games are my favorite types of games. I've even tried to run a few, much to my undoing. I'd love to see Mythos continue in the way that it is now.

However, none of the fascinating mechanics or screw-spellcasters atmosphere is what really got me invested in this system. I think the first thing that attracted me to this entire 'project' (I guess you could call it that) was the bright light at the heart of it all - its creator. You're a brilliant writer, Xefas, and anything that lets me read more of your work is something altogether wonderful and awesome. You can do whatever the heck you want and I'll follow like a starving sycophant so long as I can read it.

tl;dr? You do you, man.

PeacefulOak

2017-01-08, 12:51 AM

he allready using exalted as main design chasis

From my understanding, he used Exalted as inspiration for the classes as they came into being. The idea now is to take the mythos classes as designed for 3.5 D&D, and port them over into a new unique system that meets the story elements of the anthol concept while maintaining a mechanism for resolving challenges and conflict.

khadgar567

2017-01-08, 02:46 AM

From my understanding, he used Exalted as inspiration for the classes as they came into being. The idea now is to take the mythos classes as designed for 3.5 D&D, and port them over into a new unique system that meets the story elements of the anthol concept while maintaining a mechanism for resolving challenges and conflict.
my option dont port it but its xefas's brain child so he can do what ever the f he wants.

Valerem

2017-01-08, 04:50 AM

Will admit, it would be a shame if we never get all the other classes from Xefas in 3.5. The Cynosure (Even if I have to wonder why all these's villains have Kamia in their line up). Ophidian (Mythos Rogue I'm guessing). Epistemian (World warping!). Epicurean (Mythos Bard). Secretary (The Name alone is hilarous). Katalixi (become the Repear). Katametritis (Art and Battle!). Agapon (Heart is an Awesome Power!). Athrastos (Like the Bellator, I guess?). Drakontas (MOTHER****ING MYTHOS DRAGON). Amyitos (Cartoons Bitch!) and the Michanikos (Mythos Engineer)

That's 12' classes that are said to be in the line. The seven we do have is great, fantastic even. But not even 50% of the entire list... so whilst I do love the idea of Xefas going forth and making his own system, breaking away from D&D to make his own game and lore. I am going to be sad if we never actually get to see any of these other classes in 3.5 form. Plus, from what Xefas has said, I'm not sure if I'll be willing to play the game. Admittedly, I liked Shadow Run, so the d6 system doesn't sound like a bad idea. But the idea of classes without level's is just... odd for me.

I do love the idea of Mythic Resonance through, the reminder that D&D has the issue that if you decide to play a Dunkard, you don't get any mechanical incentive for it, so the crunch classes with the fluff of the character is an important one I'm going to have to think on and acknowledge in my own remake...

Kaje

2017-01-08, 08:51 AM

God I want the ophidian so much. Any class that can claim Carmen Sandiego and David Xanatos as reps has got to be amazing.

Zale

2017-01-09, 01:30 AM

Hmm.

I love reading new systems. I like the crunchy feeling of clicking mechanics together.

So I will read and enjoy anything that gets made, especially, though, for this.

One of the things I love most in games, even non-tabletop games, is the interplay of story and mechanics. I like it when the mechanics uphold the story and genre in a graceful, elegant way; when the stated story is actually possible with the mechanics-

This is one of the things that D&D 3.5 consistently fails at. It presents classes and options with the understanding that they're powerful or equal, or talks a big game about them, but then they're completely underwhelming.

But, Xefas, you do a really good job of making evocative and thematic mechanics that resonate well with the stories they're trying to tell. Doing that with something as non-narrativist as 3.5 is an incredible feat.

It's something I've always enjoyed about your work here.

There's also the fact that your writing is fantastic and evocative ontop of the mechanics.

But, yes, onto mechanical things:

As far as traits that help enforce story roles go, have you looked into fate? The way aspects work sounds similar to that, in that you can be compelled to follow story traits in return for mechanical incentive.

Oh, and about health systems:

My personal favorite health system is from Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine. In it, your health system is basically about how much control over your character's narrative you have.

It handles a lot of situations in the same way mechanical. Things like having a love spell cast on you, or someone persuading you to give them all your money, or someone dropping a mountain on you, or someone ripping your soul out and condemning it to hell.

Those are all things that health system can handle interchangeable. It's pretty amusing.

The only system where you can respond to someone decapitating you by sneering, "Nyeh-Nyeh, now I'm a ghost- good luck axe-murdering me again JERK."

Valerem

2017-01-09, 07:19 AM

Ya know... I am so going to being stealing so many ideas during this discussion. I mean, I made my point clear. As much as I do want to support Xefras in this regard, and I really do believe that the Mythos system will benefit from taking a step away from 3.5 D&D, I’ll be sad that I won’t be able to see Mythos come to completion in 3,5 D&D, I mean. Expecting Xefras to work on Mythos both as an original concept, AND for 3.5 D&D is waaaaay too much of a stretch. However, actually having people talking about the issues in 3.5, and talking how they might be able to overcome them, is definitely going to benefit me greatly.

Like, the issue of health. Where one moment your fine, and the next moment you can’t do anything? That’s a well known Trope: Critical Existence Failure (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CriticalExistenceFailure), and one that is relevant in a LOT of games. Of course, just because it’s relevant and happens often in a game, doesn’t mean it has to be accepted... complacency is bad. Innovation is good. But of course... this is in place, to help ensure there isn’t an Unstable Equilibrium (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnstableEquilibrium), creating a downward spiral where if you get an early penalty, it soon swings entirely out of control. Which is exactly what you want to avoid Xefras, so it is a problem for sure. It’s an issue that I want to address, but I have almost no idea how to do so myself. So having a look at the suggestions here, and what you end up coming up with yourself Xefras, will really help me out.

Still, I hope there is a suggestion I can make that might get your interest. It was brought to my attention, that the reason why conditions are so powerful (and why everyone get’s so many immunities at higher levels), is because conditions like Paralysis, or Petrified are Binary. Yet they are almost as effective as Death is. But in order to kill someone, you have to reduce their health - which is Gradual. If you throw enough conditions at someone, eventually they will beat their binary defence of the saves, and give you a victory.

So, the best way to counter this, is make it so conditions are gradual as well. I’ve made it so Status effects can be downgraded to a less severe condition, at the cost of taking a stronger toll on your body. Health points represents your body’s ability to withstand blows and throw of poison and disease. Fortitude points represents your physical and mental stamina. Whenever this is reflected in dodging a fireball, throwing off a compulsion effect, or being attacked in a non-lethal manner, Fortitude reflects that all.

... Not sure I explained that very well honestly, but I hope you understand where I’m coming from in this regard. Of course, being that you ARE intending to make an entirely new system... you could just rework conditions entirely so you don’t need a two health-bar system...

Xefas

2017-01-09, 06:27 PM

I'm reading all posts and taking them into consideration - just wanted to state that for the record. Normally, I would respond individually to them, but typing out long posts is already tedious with a phone, without adding multiple quotes and such. Suffice it to say, I appreciate all input and support.

In regards to mentioned systems - I'm passingly familiar with GURPS and Chuubo's (which doesn't mean much, as they both seem quite dense in their own way). I started playing Fate with the Dresden Files RPG, and kickstarted Fate Core. If all Fate based games were counted together, it's one of my most played systems, potentially surpassed only by D&D due to the ridiculous marathon sessions I had in middle/high school and college.

Anyway, the mechanic I'm contemplating today is space and movement. Mythopoeia will have to accommodate a wide range of forms and powers in a single party, but also across a character's development, so it may be trickier than it seems. Unavoidably, space will have to be represented more abstractly than a rigid scale grid - to see why, only imagine a party with a (roughly) human sized Teramach that can punt people miles at a time, a Kathodos in the form of a sapient hurricane, and a Jagannatha that has become a walking castle populated with a literal legion of demonic soldiers. Moving in little squares just isn't feasible.

I have some ideas, of course. But I'm open to suggestions.

Lanth Sor

2017-01-09, 06:52 PM

I did do a stamina system which was like a fatigue rework the party was rather concerned it would be cumbersome but it turned out really smooth.

VoodooPaladin

2017-01-10, 09:06 PM

space will have to be represented more abstractly than a rigid scale grid - to see why, only imagine a party with a (roughly) human sized Teramach that can punt people miles at a time, a Kathodos in the form of a sapient hurricane, and a Jagannatha that has become a walking castle populated with a literal legion of demonic soldiers

Honestly, it's kind of hard to imagine how combat works at that level of complexity and variation. Trying to keep things straightforward and simple is a challenge at this point - it sounds like Mythopeoia's concept of movement is more of a relative question of 'can you actually affect this thing with your power' than it is a matter of sensible, round-by-round accounting of location.

Maybe some kind of Engage roll, which is complicated by any effect that would make you hard for chump farmers with pitchforks to stab to death? Hitting Godzilla doesn't work unless you're flying, or climbing up his limbs, or piloting a giant robot, or so on. Trying to stab a hurricane requires you have some power that would enable you to break its control over its wind patterns, whether that be magic weapons that cleave souls, opening gas pockets by splitting mile-wide canyons in vacant earth, or just being so big that punching it moves a few million foot-tons of force directly into its everything.

...that might not help much, but its kind of the best I've got right now.

manwithaplan

2017-01-10, 10:42 PM

Anyway, the mechanic I'm contemplating today is space and movement. Mythopoeia will have to accommodate a wide range of forms and powers in a single party, but also across a character's development, so it may be trickier than it seems. Unavoidably, space will have to be represented more abstractly than a rigid scale grid - to see why, only imagine a party with a (roughly) human sized Teramach that can punt people miles at a time, a Kathodos in the form of a sapient hurricane, and a Jagannatha that has become a walking castle populated with a literal legion of demonic soldiers. Moving in little squares just isn't feasible.

I have some ideas, of course. But I'm open to suggestions.

You ever played Mutants and Masterminds? It's certainly built at least somewhat for human-sized individuals that can punt people four miles, sapient hurricanes, and...populated walking castles? I suppose.

It works in Distance. Facing doesn't matter, grids don't matter, everything is Distance. And the Distance Ranks double at each row. So your ordinary guy moves Distance Rank 0, or 30 Feet, with his Move Action. But if you put a point into your Speed, now you move 60. Another point and it goes up to 120 Feet, or Distance Rank 2. Then you have superheroes with Strength 10, and when they throw you, they throw you to Distance Rank 10 - 4 Miles. And if you get thrown, but you're the Teleporter, you might be able to travel Distance Rank 15 - 120 miles. So you pop back.

And for every fight between Speedsters punching each other while they run across the planet, people who move at normal speed can still get into a room together, take Move Actions to get close to each other, and have a bit of a tactical element to it. Like most of Mutants & Masterminds, while it lacks a strong feel for anything specific, it's versatile and can cover everything.

Xefas

2017-01-15, 07:17 PM

The last few days, I've been doing some fluff writing. Right now, however, I'm looking at Skills. Here, I'm using Skills as a very general term for "The numbers that determine if you succeed/fail." [edit: I'm not going to be using a binary succeed/fail system, just to clarify.] So, in D&D, I would count all the skills in the skill system, but also stuff like attack bonus, fortitude, reflex, will, armor class, and ability scores. The fact that these are handled so differently in D&D is something I want to avoid. Constitution and Fortitude both measure the same quality of the character so, ideally, we don't want the player to have to handle completely different bonuses, uses, modes of progression, derived statistics and so on. Dexterity might be the biggest offender - what exactly does a character with Dexterity 3, Reflex +20, no ranks in Dex skills, and the Run feat look like? He wanders out of a bar, slips and falls on a pile of vomit, then does a flying backflip from prone thirty feet through the air to dodge a lightning bolt from the sky, then a drunk comes at him with a bottle and he's powerless to get out of the way while he's beaten utterly senseless, then he drops into a 20mph dead sprint into the night. (To note, the Player's Handbook describes a Dexterity of 3 as being similar in agility to a fungus.)

But condensing Skills too far can have its own problems. Dungeon World, for example, uses only D&D's six ability scores for Skills. An average Dexterity score means you're average in all those things mentioned - tests of speed, reflexes, balance, acrobatics, and so on. The reason this occasionally irks me is that it means that my street urchin Rogue who's great at lying to fences and bribing guards (high Charisma) is also great at delivering political speeches and singing. Similarly, a Grizzled Old Janitor in FAE that raises their Quick score simultaneously becomes better at running, gunfighting, disarming bombs, dancing, driving boats, piloting mecha, noticing tripwires - and so on forever - provided that speed matters.

On the other hand, maybe I'm okay with highly applicable general competencies for Mythos characters, with focuses provided by their class. I consider Exalted, where my deicidal legionary can literally duel the God Of Spears, using a spear, and win - but if he tries to throw that spear, he can't hit the broad side of a barn, and if he tries to throw a punch, he's liable to embarrass himself - and I'm trying to think of situations where I would want a particular Mythos character to be embarrassingly bad at something (for those of you that have actually built/played one - how many times did you put skill points in Swim?), and the only times I can think of are a result of a class ability (like a Teramach being embarrassingly bad at doing calculus while raging).

But then I start thinking of problems; like a character becoming just a hat worn by their class, as there may not be enough to distinguish them mechanically otherwise. There's a reason that Powered By The Apocalypse games limit you to one of each class in a party; two Gunluggers (Apocalypse World) are going to end up being relatively interchangeable. One has a shotgun and one has an assault rifle, but they mostly work the same, and they both maxed Hard (the AW stat for smashing/shooting stuff) because all their class features work off of it, and they both once had one other party member leave them bleeding out in a gutter somewhere in their backstory (which is part of the class).

Anyway, I could go back and forth forever. I'm open to any thoughts you all might have on the subject, and I hold none of my opinions as particularly sacred at the moment.

Valerem

2017-01-16, 06:07 AM

You know, reading these posts, talking about the issues of various game designs is making me more and more aware of just how difficult making your own game actually IS... especially as there are so many issues that I honestly did not take into account. >.>

Maybe I should put a cap on Reflex Saves or something? But that could be an issue... Nrph... >.<

Regardless, I do think I can contribute. One of the issues I have with D&D and Pathfinder is that the skills are all grouped together, and dictated by intelligence... which, makes me go ??? Why can a nerdy, frail Wizard, be better at jumping, swimming and climbing than a big, strong fighter? (I guess it’s kinda linked to the very first problem you brought up yourself). Stuff like Diplomacy and Disable Device make sense to some degree, as their more about learning how to talk to people, or how to disable traps without setting them off. But the physical stuff? That makes zero sense.

So, I’m gonna split them.

Mental skills like Diplomacy, Disable Device, and Sense Motive are going to in one section, and the Class+Int dictates how many points you get. Whilst Physical skills such as Tumble, Spot and Listen, are going to be in a different category, and they are dictated by Class+Str. After all, Str isn’t just a measure of Upper body strength, even though that is what it reflects nine times out of ten. But the general strength of their body. If a monk kicks a dude, they're using lower body strength, but Str applies all the same as if they punched the dude.

This way, classes that traditionally have very low skill points, and reason to get intelligence (such as Paladin, Fighter and Barbarian). Can have skill points that let them BE the peak of physical performance that you see in the ability scores. Whilst classes that have low physical scores, but high intelligence like the Wizard, can’t jump, tumble and swim as easily as the martial classes can.

Of course, this also comes with the issue of making sure those skills are more relevant in the game than they are now... and it also brings up a question I’m not sure how to answer. Should the Knowledge Skills, such as... Knowledge, as well as maybe Disable Device and definitely Handle Animal, be their own section, or would that complicate things too much?

VoodooPaladin

2017-01-17, 07:33 AM

Right now, however, I'm looking at Skills.

So you've butt your head against the nigh-apocalyptic design barrier that is Action Resolution, eh? I'm impressed: most never ask such questions of the game they play, even while they're carving it up and frankensteining it back together in their own image. I hope my advice is helpful to you, but you'll have my support regardless.

I think Ability Scores work fine, if well-implemented. No one minds a character that's big and tough being able to climb and take hits well. No one minds a character that's great with words being able to deliver a stirring speech and entice an amicable stranger. Though I don't believe it can be perfect, ability scores do an excellent job rendering 'general competence', which is basically needed for an action resolution system to hold together in play.

Since Mythic characters each have a singular Mythical power source, then characters being defined significantly by their classes sounds helpful for reigning in design theories. (I'm thinking of Fire Emblem's classes, and how different stats and characterization actually do make them feel different.) In 4e, skills were simplified to suit the class-focused design: as part of your class, you became trained in 3~5 skills, which were each more general in their purview than 3e skills were. Being trained in a skill gave you a level-based bonus and that's about it.

Would that help in establishing a clear starting point? I assume the top-level functions would have to be described on a case-by-case basis, and the difficult part would be adjudicating how unrelated Mythos and such - possibly written many years and authors apart - would function when one's ruleset says Can't and the other Do Anyway. But that's a long way away, and probably can't be built in perfectly on principle.

(this is pure theorycraft, but if each skill is more like 2~4 skills in 3.5 terms, what if being trained in a skill was what let you access the more impressive things you could do with them, as a rule? further, if training is such a simple toggle, adding and replacing skills trained could be a natural thing at later levels, which clears up a lot of build culture pains and groaning)

Xefas

2017-01-18, 06:10 PM

One possible skill configuration I'm looking at, which I'm beginning to like, is so:

The White Art of Leading Men to Glory
--Used to run organizations and lead military units. You might roll to have your spy network acquire a particular piece of information, or to bolster morale before your mob of peasants crashes into the oncoming horde of zombies.

The Red Art of Dividing Flesh and Life
--Used for all kinds of combat stuff. Swinging a sword, shooting a bow, parrying a sword, catching an arrow, Captain America'ing ten fools with a shield. Whatever.

The Saffron Art of Self Perfection
--Measures physical health. Used for running, jumping, lifting buildings over your head, resisting poison, and so on. Adds to hit points and has some combat overlap with the Red Art, in that it can also be used to dodge attacks and while it isn't rolled to hit someone, it can be used to, say, strike the earth and send a shockwave that leaves someone hurdling through the air.

The Golden Art of Making Known the Righteous Word
--The skill for making people feel things, and then using those feelings to get them to do stuff. Make someone angry, then get them to attack you in combat instead of your allies. Make someone scared, then get them to flee the area. Make someone grieve, and then get them to start a war. You can't actually make someone believe something, or change the way they think, but you can get them to act on their emotions instead of their reason.

The Green Art of Cultivating the Spirit Through Knowing The World
--A skill representing how well traveled a character is or, rather, if they have taken wisdom from their travels. It handles knowledge of foreign lands, wilderness survival skills, and it can be rolled upon going to a new place to establish that a character has been there before, and what kind of reputation they have.

The Blue Art of Seeing Past the Veil
--The skill rolled to see past deceptions, whether lies or illusions, and to measure the intentions, motivations, and emotional states of other characters. This insight also allows a character to resist the Golden Art by seeing past the emotional facade of an argument to its true merit, and can be used to see to the heart of a riddle or logic puzzle.

The Indigo Art of Finding Lost and Hidden Things
--The skill rolled for the senses. Seeing an ambush before it hits you, eavesdropping on a conversation, smelling a poison in your drink, finding a hidden lever, discerning that one splatter of blood is incongruent with the pattern left by the rest and therefore it must belong to the murderer and not the victim and so the party Teramach just needs to bloodhound that one back to the source to solve the case. (I'm thinking of giving Teramachs either smell powers or blood powers. Or both.)

The Violet Art of Knowing
--The knowledge skill. Occult knowledge like spirits and undead and gods and such, but also mundane stuff like math, physics, and medicine. I'm thinking cultural knowledge and history will be rolled under the Green Art instead, but it might instead be an overlap.

The Black Art of False Faces and Ill Intent
--Rogue: The Skill. Lie, cheat, steal, pickpocket, skulk, safecrack, bluff, conceal objects, feint, disguise, hide your true character from the Blue Art, and so on.

So, what's missing? What situations are there where no skill seems applicable? I've got hooks for physical conflict, a kind of social conflict, organization-level (political?) conflict, dungeon adventures, urban adventures, wilderness adventures... I think it's good. And I like the color theme.

VoodooPaladin

2017-01-18, 11:06 PM

One possible skill configuration I'm looking at, which I'm beginning to like, is so:

Quick question, before I begin? What would you figure the baseline for 'normal people' would be, in this system? In fluff or crunch terms, either way would help.

I like this so far - I actually kind of like that each figurative sector of character competence is composed of two or three skills which partially overlap, but are otherwise distinct. I haven't tested anything, but it looks good to build off of.

Side note: I just noticed is that Black is like 80% composed of messing with what other colors do - lies for Gold, disguise for Green, feint for Red, con game for Blue, and so on. That's so MTG it hurts - I love it!

Xefas

2017-01-19, 01:29 AM

Quick question, before I begin? What would you figure the baseline for 'normal people' would be, in this system? In fluff or crunch terms, either way would help.

I'm looking at a few different classifications of being. Mortals are the every day rank and file background mooks of Mythopoeia. They're just grain in the grinding wheels of the gods, and they're confined to 'realism'; no size of modifier or lucky roll will allow them to sprint across the surface of a lake or hide from a room full of guards inside someone's shadow. And instead of using Arts, I'd like to have some very simple numbers a GM can plug in for the brief roles a Mortal might play in the life of a PC. The town apothecary has a very narrow specialty; he has +X when identifying herbs and making poultices, but doesn't have the Violet Art of Knowing - he can't necessarily tell you how to build a catapult. And because he'll likely never fulfill a role beyond that, the GM doesn't really need to worry what his other numbers are, but they're probably +0 or quite low.

Heroes are one Tier up and include Anthols and Sorcerers. They use the Arts, with Anthols also having Mythos and being able to go up further Tiers. Sorcerers get their own weird magic progression stuff without going up further Tiers like Anthols, Deities, Archons (Servants of the Gods), and Titans do. But most of the world's Heroes are neither Anthol nor Sorcerer, and they're stuck at this level, which lets lets them do Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon type wirefu acrobatics and Sherlock Holmes esque unreasonable logical leaps and such, with the Arts, which makes them potential rivals and allies of weaker Anthols, and worthy subordinates to powerful ones, but they'll never punch a mountain in half.

In a way, you could think of it as:

Mortal -> Fighter
Hero -> Warblade
Anthol -> Bellator

I don't want to commit to any exact numbers yet, but ideally a newly minted combat-capable Anthol should be able to give a few dozen mortal soldiers a good fight, and at the upper end of standard Anthol character progression, they should be able to square off against well-trained mortal armies with competent Heroic leadership behind them.

I like this so far - I actually kind of like that each figurative sector of character competence is composed of two or three skills which partially overlap, but are otherwise distinct. I haven't tested anything, but it looks good to build off of.

Side note: I just noticed is that Black is like 80% composed of messing with what other colors do - lies for Gold, disguise for Green, feint for Red, con game for Blue, and so on. That's so MTG it hurts - I love it!

Yeah, I think the colors worked out surprisingly well thematically. Hot colors are flashier and more proactive, cool colors are more subtle and reactive. Although I am concerned with the possibility that using the names of the Arts on a character sheet and in mechanical descriptions might not be as easy for the reader as if the Black Art was just 'Guile' or something more generic like that, and the Saffron Art was just 'Body' and so on.

I recall reading Legends of the Wulin long ago, and there being stuff about dice in your River and Lake, and dice Flowing down the River, and Flooding the River, and creating Ripples in other peoples Lakes and... stuff. After some perusing, I believe that I got it down, but I felt like it would be a nightmare trying to teach new players as opposed to just being able to say "Roll these dice to hit a guy."

But, on the other hand, I've been listening to a Dresden Files Actual Play podcast recently, and the generic names of the skills are constantly leading to them being misused by the group playing. For example, in the last episode I listened to, they used Investigate (which is basically D&D's Search skill) to find a safe house to hide a sensitive person in, because having a safe place to hide out sounded like something a private investigator would be able to do. Therefore, Investigate*.

So maybe having fancier names might emphasize that the Arts are meant for specific things.

(*edit: I realize that this might just be a failing of this particular group. My own groups have never had such a problem with the Dresden Files or Fate in general, but I feel like it would be a mistake not to take into account the behavior of other groups when designing a system, as it needs to be able to go out into the world and be able to function without its creator.)

CowardlyPaladin

2017-01-19, 05:32 PM

hey I feel like a noob but what exactly is Mythos? All of the links in the opening post all seem to be referring to something else, what exactly is mythic games, is it a whole new mechanical system?

SirBellias

2017-01-19, 09:14 PM

Hey y'all. From what I've seen of the system being made (or the ideas behind it, at least), it looks pretty great. Just saying.

As for the skills, I think you should leave the names as they are. They feel right when looking at the Mythos and what they are, and are giving off a serious Kill Six Billion Demons vibe, which is glorious. It shouldn't be too hard to explain a solid nine skills, and the color theme helps to make them easier to justify. Red for blood, gold for honeyed words, and so on.

There doesn't seem to be anything missing from the skill list, either. Seems fairly rounded out to me.

Keep it up! I'm afraid I am not too savvy when it comes to game design, so I won't weigh in too often on mechanical stuff. But this concept is a great one, and I'll try to give my opinion when it matters.

There is a new mechanical system being made here, but it started out as a bunch of upper tier classes and fluff for D&D.

VoodooPaladin

2017-01-19, 11:30 PM

hey I feel like a noob but what exactly is Mythos? All of the links in the opening post all seem to be referring to something else, what exactly is mythic games, is it a whole new mechanical system?

Mythos is a descriptor used to refer to one of two things: a series of homebrew D&D classes built around strong fluff presentation and high-op power levels, and the Exalted-inspired setting used to describe their more exotic aspects and implications.

It all began with the Teramach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286983-3-5-Base-Class-quot-I-want-to-live-inside-a-castle-built-of-your-agony!-quot), which is accordingly a fine place to start in understanding what Mythos are. Most importantly, it's really fun to read and I would recommend it to just about anyone.

CowardlyPaladin

2017-01-19, 11:51 PM

Mythos is a descriptor used to refer to one of two things: a series of homebrew D&D classes built around strong fluff presentation and high-op power levels, and the Exalted-inspired setting used to describe their more exotic aspects and implications.

It all began with the Teramach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286983-3-5-Base-Class-quot-I-want-to-live-inside-a-castle-built-of-your-agony!-quot), which is accordingly a fine place to start in understanding what Mythos are. Most importantly, it's really fun to read and I would recommend it to just about anyone.

So if I start there I can get a better understanding of the larger system and move on? cause this seems really elaborate i'm kinda curious

Xefas

2017-01-20, 01:13 AM

Doing some fluff writing again tonight. I'm thinking the fluff chapter will be first, with the first section containing information about the different classes of being that exist in Mythopoeia, then the topography of the universe and its five realms, then a history of how the world came to be. Somewhere, I want to include information about what "the average peasant on the street" knows about the world, which is full of ignorance, misconceptions, and divine propaganda. That's just something I've occasionally wanted when running games like Exalted or Planescape that have big cosmologies.

Anyway, this is my second draft for the fluff chapter's introduction, before going into the nature of gods and titans, and the Anthols that players will take control over to change the world. I want it to set a dark tone, point out to the prospective reader that the game involves a fantasy setting with swords and magic, and be intriguing enough to get someone to do the pdf equivalent of turning the page.

Mythopoeia is the secret name of the world, a place of tragedy and injustice, where death is false and eternity is the selfish concoction of evil gods. Since time immemorial, humanity has labored in meaningless toil, scratching out an existence they know not the purpose of, sowing and reaping their food from harsh lands, living short, brutal lives plagued with disease and demonic creatures that surface from the places of the world without light to cause terror and suffering. And when a man's life is through, he suffers the falsehood of ending, and his soul is reborn to the world in another life to toil again.

Mythopoeia is a world of stagnancy, ignorance, and cowardice. Invention and progress died in their womb long ago, and no ideas advance past the sword and iron plow. Superstition rules from the backwaters to the cities, as avatars of distant, real deities descend to earth to bring capricious vagaries in place of enlightenment. Right and wrong vary with each mile from tribe to tribe and town to town, and the ensuing xenophobia and intolerance only drag the eyes of mankind further downward and away from their masters.

Mythopoeia has seen many heroes. Since the beginning, there have been a rare few humans with a touch of real power, for Hero is not a word for the good, but a title for the mighty, and each has in their time used that power to shape the world to their liking - but the world resists change, and in the march of ages, their kingdoms crumble and their names are forgotten. None in the heavens take notice of these petty kings, for they know that in time even a hero will pass and return again to the cycle, whatever fleeting pleasures they might steal from above their mortal station.

What is not known to any but the Gods themselves is that Mythopoeia is itself a vast mechanism, and all of its misery is by design. It is an engine of perfection that produces but does not consume. It recycles life, it introduces pain, and draws forth faithful pleas, and it is those prayers the Gods consume to sustain their minds. Each tragedy is a calculation, each moment of hope or happiness an ingredient on the scales to extract the optimal amount of belief over infinite lifetimes.

What is not known to any thing but one, and certainly not to the Gods, is that the mechanism is not as perfect as it seems. There is a flaw, of which half an eternity passed to reveal, and something small has now broken. The world produces heroes as it always has, but a long forgotten flame has poisoned them. The flame called chaos subverts their intended purpose, and now fragile Mythopoeia, which is held together with the clockwork strata of stagnant order, will change.

We play to find out how.

VoodooPaladin

2017-01-20, 03:47 AM

Although I am concerned with the possibility that using the names of the Arts on a character sheet and in mechanical descriptions might not be as easy for the reader as if the Black Art was just 'Guile' or something more generic like that, and the Saffron Art was just 'Body' and so on.

If mortals don't have access to the Arts, then giving them ordinary-sounding names is a recipe for cognitive dissonance. If you remember to say clearly what each Art actually allows you to do in practice - your descriptions of Red and Black are good examples of this, your descriptions of Green and Gold are less so - then I expect it will play out fine more often than not.

dice in your River and Lake, and dice Flowing down the River, and Flooding the River, and creating Ripples in other peoples Lakes and...

That sounds like subsystem bloat. The use of Arts as a grouping of general skills based around a character trait isn't necessarily worse than the one we all put up with from D&D. A 9-stat system isn't really worse than a 6-stat one, especially if the extra up-front complexity keeps it from later installing a ton of hidden complexity and derived statistics. What matters is that the in-game use of the Arts to do "stuff" remains simple to explain and use.

The town apothecary has a very narrow specialty; he has +X when identifying herbs and making poultices, but doesn't have the Violet Art of Knowing - he can't necessarily tell you how to build a catapult.

Ah, thank you. That sounds pretty straightforward in practice. After all, if the game is focused on impressive things, and mortals can't do those no matter how big their bonuses get, then they can get rather high bonuses for consistency purposes and it won't break anything. It even sounds like a respectable backup system for Arts; if invoking mortal competency was incompatible with Arts (and still limited by the glass ceiling, even in the hands of Anthols), then it could be used to allow characters to hold a presence in a scene without absolutely needing to constantly contrive opportunities to use their focus stat(s).

Mythopoeia is the secret name of the world

I like it. Dark, and concisely so. It's not a world of heroes - at least, not real ones. But it certainly is a world in need of some.

PeacefulOak

2017-01-20, 10:56 AM

This has some of the feel of Spira and Cocoon/Grand Pulse. I like a lot of what you have down so far.

I'm curious, are you intending on having different tiers of play, with different rules and rule interactions, or is t likely to be all anthols and sorcerers?

Xefas

2017-01-20, 03:28 PM

I like it. Dark, and concisely so. It's not a world of heroes - at least, not real ones. But it certainly is a world in need of some.

Writing it actually gave me an idea for a little subsystem to represent the player characters as agents of change.

So, everywhere in the world has problems, but some are bigger than others. When the players come to a new city-state, for example, the GM might throw out that its big problems are Tyranny, Drought, and Rejection of Medicine. There's a dictator that rules with an iron fist, water is in short supply, and the average commoner thinks that bathing makes you sick and raw pork is the only cure. These three things are not altogether unrelated.

(For contrast, the next city-state over might instead have a Lethargic Government, where the ruling council won't pass laws and regulations even when they're sorely needed, Marauding Bands of Ogres, which is self explanatory, and Crippling Xenophobia to the point where they won't even trade with other nearby city-states for things they really need.)

Whenever the PCs do something big in a given area, really throwing around their superhuman power, they either contribute to breaking down an existing problem, or creating a new one (or sometimes both?). If they roll into a town under the city-state's influence and take a bunch of supplies and kill the guards that try to stop them, they contribute to Mass Fear, or Lawlessness, or whatever the GM thinks is fair. If they, however, publicly decry the mandate of the tyrannical government and run the king's men out of town, and declare that the people are now under their protection, then they damage Tyranny. Once they damage Tyranny enough - for example, if they crusade through enough towns, the people will rise up, throw off their shackles, guillotine the dictator and install a new government, or if they go to the city proper and burn down the palace with everyone in it - the Tyranny problem goes away. Possibly replaced with a positive attribute instead ("Benevolent Republic" or whatever).

Before Mythopoeia had broken, if a band of Heroes were to do these things, what would invariably happen would be that one of the Heroes takes the reins and becomes the new tyrant. Or they rule justly and fairly for a little while before being assassinated and replaced by a new tyrant. The situation would not actually progress at all, getting any better or any worse.

But Anthols can actually ruin or fix things, as they see fit. And this system might scale up, such that if enough cities and kingdoms are changed, the nature of an entire region of the world could be damaged and then shift. This might be a good trigger for the forces of heaven to really start taking notice and responding.

Then again, this might be something that doesn't need to be mechanized. It's just something I'm thinking about.

I'm curious, are you intending on having different tiers of play, with different rules and rule interactions, or is t likely to be all anthols and sorcerers?

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean rules for playing as mortals or generic Heroes? I wasn't planning on it.

Actually, I wasn't really planning on supporting PC Sorcerers. At least not initially. Just doing the dozens of types of Anthols is a big enough task for now. Sorcerers should make fun enemies and allies, though, with how I envision magic working.

PeacefulOak

2017-01-20, 04:15 PM

Writing it actually gave me an idea for a little subsystem to represent the player characters as agents of change.

So, everywhere in the world has problems, but some are bigger than others. When the players come to a new city-state, for example, the GM might throw out that its big problems are Tyranny, Drought, and Rejection of Medicine. There's a dictator that rules with an iron fist, water is in short supply, and the average commoner thinks that bathing makes you sick and raw pork is the only cure. These three things are not altogether unrelated.

(For contrast, the next city-state over might instead have a Lethargic Government, where the ruling council won't pass laws and regulations even when they're sorely needed, Marauding Bands of Ogres, which is self explanatory, and Crippling Xenophobia to the point where they won't even trade with other nearby city-states for things they really need.)

Whenever the PCs do something big in a given area, really throwing around their superhuman power, they either contribute to breaking down an existing problem, or creating a new one (or sometimes both?). If they roll into a town under the city-state's influence and take a bunch of supplies and kill the guards that try to stop them, they contribute to Mass Fear, or Lawlessness, or whatever the GM thinks is fair. If they, however, publicly decry the mandate of the tyrannical government and run the king's men out of town, and declare that the people are now under their protection, then they damage Tyranny. Once they damage Tyranny enough - for example, if they crusade through enough towns, the people will rise up, throw off their shackles, guillotine the dictator and install a new government, or if they go to the city proper and burn down the palace with everyone in it - the Tyranny problem goes away. Possibly replaced with a positive attribute instead ("Benevolent Republic" or whatever).

Before Mythopoeia had broken, if a band of Heroes were to do these things, what would invariably happen would be that one of the Heroes takes the reins and becomes the new tyrant. Or they rule justly and fairly for a little while before being assassinated and replaced by a new tyrant. The situation would not actually progress at all, getting any better or any worse.

But Anthols can actually ruin or fix things, as they see fit. And this system might scale up, such that if enough cities and kingdoms are changed, the nature of an entire region of the world could be damaged and then shift. This might be a good trigger for the forces of heaven to really start taking notice and responding.

Then again, this might be something that doesn't need to be mechanized. It's just something I'm thinking about.

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean rules for playing as mortals or generic Heroes? I wasn't planning on it.

Actually, I wasn't really planning on supporting PC Sorcerers. At least not initially. Just doing the dozens of types of Anthols is a big enough task for now. Sorcerers should make fun enemies and allies, though, with how I envision magic working.

For the part responding to me, yeah that's what I was looking at. I only asked because you mentioned the wire-fu Heroes like Warblades previously.

For the other part, a lot of what you are describing is part of what I think of as natural world-building which happens as part of a game, as the characters grow in power and influence. Depending on how much detailed world-building and city-planning you will be doing, having a GM set of guidelines on how to create a living breathing city-state within Mythopoiea on the fly.

Xefas

2017-01-23, 07:19 PM

I met with some friends over the weekend. They helped me push the mechanical side of things forward a bit. I've also borrowed an ancient, derelict laptop that nevertheless does access the internet. I can start writing in Google Docs, which will help, and I do have one PC game that it can actually run - Sim City 2000, so hell yeah in that department.

Today, I'm working on the glossary of proper nouns, potentially to be placed at the beginning of the fluff chapter. Link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ONyI6WeS-r4tyOKbJvL23okbfN4Ava6WhyyO_dBMGac). Commenting is enabled if, for whatever reason, someone wants to comment.

One term that I'm waffling on is the replacement for the Lawgivers; I wanted something more general, whereas Lawgiver is more of a political term. The Titans wouldn't call them that. Right now, I have them listed as the Eight Divinities (subject to change in number), but I also like Celestial and Celestine, the former of which plays off their (soon to be strengthened) star motif, and the latter a cursory google search tells me hasn't ever been used to refer to powerful beings, but is instead a kind of rock and a method by which one garnishes a dish with finely shredded pancakes. But I still think it sounds cool... despite the pancake thing.

Fizban

2017-01-24, 12:43 AM

How do we feel about Mythos as its own setting with its own ruleset?

Something made for not-D&D is always going to be less popular than something made for D&D, I accept that, but in terms of quality, I think there are advantages in the relinquishing of baggage both mechanical and setting. Thoughts?
Indeed, a significant part of why I like Mythos stuff is that it has the gall to do what it does in DnD. There are plenty of other games that have more narrative mechanics, and plenty of ways you can try to graft narrative mechanics onto normal DnD classes. But Mythos classes do it the hard way by saying screw the rules and just doing it, stealing mechanics or making them up and generally flouting the normal design specs, and are usable alongside all the other 3.5 stuff I like. It's narratively designed classes through the lens of a mechanically focused game with lots of different stats for "realism," ignoring the rules or reality in a different way than magic (with its own rules) does.

A system designed from the ground up for Mythos stuff would lack the inherent screwing of the rules since the rules were written for it, and while I can appreciate other systems 3.5 is where I live. Of course if you don't want to write for it anymore then you don't want to and you might as well move on, it's not like any of the existing 3.5 Mythos stuff is going to disappear and I haven't even read it all yet. So yeah, go right ahead, I'll follow along when I see it about as I've been doing.

Regarding Investigate skills- that's because Investigate is a terrible choice for a skill name, because investigating requires a bunch of skills.

Lanth Sor

2017-01-26, 04:57 PM

Due to design concerns form people around the design of Agios's primary shield mythos I'm thinking of reworking it away form the % chance DR and going to abusing standard shield feats. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Ardent Aegis Bulwark
Prerequisite: -

Shields no longer grant a bonus to AC. You now gain a (20 + str mod + Shield bonus + Combat Expertise's AC bonus)% chance to block (class level+Str mod+Shield bonus) physical damage from incoming attack. While Fighting Defensively the chance is doubled. While performing Total Defense all incoming attacks are blocked. Using a tower shield increases the block chance by 10 and using a buckler decreases the block chance by 10.

Advanced
Insurmountable: Gain +1% block chance per enemy that threatens you.
Swift Redoubt Interception: Any charge in the agios's reach is treated as the agios for the purposes of Ardent Aegis Bulwark.
Righteous Thorns: When you block a melee attack the attacker takes 1d4+cha mod force damage.
Renewal: When you block an attack gain fast healing equal to your cha mod, not greater than level, until the end of your next turn.

With another mythos that can double % chance.

The concern is the tedium of checking and reducing each attack and the moment a bunch of people attack you or someone your protecting and you just say no.

Ardent Aegis Bulwark
Prerequisite: -

Shield bonus to AC projects to all allies in the Agios' reach(min 5ft) and the agios gain Shield Focus and Shield Specialization. Additionally gain DR x/-

Advanced
Insurmountable: Gain +1 Shield bonus to AC per 2 enemies that threatens you.
Righteous Thorns: When a melee attack misses someone benefiting from your shield by an amount equal to your Shield bonus, the attacker takes 1d4+cha mod force damage.
Renewal: When attack misses someone benefiting from your shield by an amount equal to your Shield bonus, attacks target gains fast healing equal to your cha mod, not greater than level, until the end of your next turn.

Xefas

2017-02-01, 04:11 AM

For those interested in Mythopoeia's setting, I've written some info for the first five of the Ten Hells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fa1uIgeinTZe0zQQ1G3UMC5hhi7J8QLcRfxWEZT79dU/edit?usp=sharing), where the Titans reside in present day.

Just in case some high Tier player characters are crazy enough to try to rip a macguffin, or glean some lost lore, from the clutches of an ancient demiurge. Once stats are nailed down, there must also be stats for some of the Titanic souls contained therein (and environmental effects, like Setesh's fog). But, for now, I'm just looking for feedback on the fluff. Is it evocative and interesting? Does it conjure ideas for an adventure where the party has to go to a particular Hell to get or do X thing? Does it paint the Titans as dangerous, horrible things from before a stable reality, that nevertheless do not have the free will necessary to be blamed for being inhospitable towards the mortal world, and therefore it is still somewhat pitiable that they exist imprisoned, debased, and suffering for (ostensibly*) eternity?

*Pending player character malice or stupidity.

Zale

2017-02-04, 04:29 AM

Xefas

2017-02-04, 05:25 PM

I've been crunching over the Lawgiver alternate name, because I can feel something on the periphery of my mind.

It might be a thing from the Yoruba faith, in which the servants of Olodumare, the great high god, are called the Orisa, or the Divine Ministers.

But that might not be appropriate.

You could always call them Elohim, but that might be thematically dissonant.

Orisa probably isn't appropriate, as the Lawgivers are the head honchos (or they would be, if they were still conscious), not really analogous to Ministers. I do like Elohim, although it seems like it might be something of a broken parallel, as if we're using an Abrahamic lens, the Empyrean is the YHWH of the tale, and the Sun is the Adversary. Just, in this case, the Morningstar won the war, and cast his father into Hell to be broken and twisted, rather than the opposite.

Anyway, someone asked me (in a general sense) to post this here (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/exalted/1042709-inspired-by-exalted-the-narrative-titans-for-a-superhero-rp-i-m-in-on-tvtropes).

That's cool. I'm actually really interested in where God_of_Awesome heard of my stuff if he doesn't have a Giantitp account.

Also. C'mon, Zale. Why've you got a sweet Mottom avatar over there, but you're still using the generic Oots ranger avatar here?

Zale

2017-02-04, 07:57 PM

Orisa probably isn't appropriate, as the Lawgivers are the head honchos (or they would be, if they were still conscious), not really analogous to Ministers. I do like Elohim, although it seems like it might be something of a broken parallel, as if we're using an Abrahamic lens, the Empyrean is the YHWH of the tale, and the Sun is the Adversary. Just, in this case, the Morningstar won the war, and cast his father into Hell to be broken and twisted, rather than the opposite.

Yeah. I'd probably give them a medium length title myself, like The Great And Terrible Radiances or something.

You could nab some terms from Zoroastrianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism); call them the Amesha Spenta, or call them Ahura(s).

But that might not have the same resonance. I'm biased as I think they're cool.

That's cool. I'm actually really interested in where God_of_Awesome heard of my stuff if he doesn't have a Giantitp account.

Also. C'mon, Zale. Why've you got a sweet Mottom avatar over there, but you're still using the generic Oots ranger avatar here?

Well, I feel a small amount of visual dissonance when I use a non-stick figure avatar on this forum due to most people using them.

I may change it though. It's worth consideration.

Inevitability

2017-02-05, 03:35 AM

Well, I feel a small amount of visual dissonance when I use a non-stick figure avatar on this forum due to most people using them.

I may change it though. It's worth consideration.

Nothing wrong with non-stick figure avatars! :smalltongue:

Seriously though, nice to see more KSBD fans on here. The Incubus reveal was pretty nice, don't you agree?

Zale

2017-02-05, 02:55 PM

Nothing wrong with non-stick figure avatars! :smalltongue:

Seriously though, nice to see more KSBD fans on here. The Incubus reveal was pretty nice, don't you agree?

Yes. I've got three shekels on "dream vampire".

I would love it if the whole decadent pretty boy manipulator thing is just a hobby; his true talent is impossibly destructive sword-skills.

TraceChaos

2017-02-13, 07:39 PM

So I'm planning on building a half-dragon kobold Bellator ; looking through a few things, it seems that natural weapons count as weapons for most purposes.

Still, I feel the need to ask just to clarify ; do Natural Weapons (Bites, Claws, etc) count as Weapons for the purpose of Bellator Mythos?

Morphic tide

2017-02-14, 11:57 PM

So, I've decided to get one of my ideas in:

What would a Mythos representing something only possible through the stable laws of physics be like, from an in-setting point of view? Essentially, a Mythos of Science and/or Objective Knowledge. The Mythos, typically, represent inherently physics breaking things, but what of a Mythos that is, from the lowest Excellency to the greatest Exalted Mythos, all about staying within physics, but exploiting them as hard as possible?

The general idea I have is that they would end up as high, high t1 against any non-Mythos enemy, or other sorts of physics warpers, simply because they are the Embodiment of exploitation of Objective Reality. But once the actual reality warping starts up, and I'm talking Mythos type reality warping/breaking, not magic, they become increasingly useless as you go higher up in power. Would this even work with the Mythos setting? Like, is that sort of thing compatible with the nature of the Mythos setting, or is it outside the nature of what Mythos are?

As for abilities, the idea is basically that they have a lot of crafting going on, with rules to what can and cannot be done and no rules about what you can make with it, like a heavily simplified gramarie-based system. Maybe get a touch of Exalted's prayer fuel involved in it on some level, where you can get X people to worship the machines/pray around the machines for Y hours to get Z amount of energy, which can be used to power various functions hooked up by one or more of several methods.

If one can make it work properly, you can basically have the end result be the base builder Mythos, making stuff that casually destroys any non-Mythos thing and seriously delay most Mythos things by just having so much to tear through. Possibly have them be the "minionmancer" of the Mythos classes by not having much in the way of personal combat ability, but instead sending robot armies and moving fortresses to deal with problems for them.

VoodooPaladin

2017-02-15, 02:59 AM

What would a Mythos representing something only possible through the stable laws of physics be like, from an in-setting point of view?

From a fluff perspective, you want the Bellator, who have no magic powers but unlimited resourcefulness and ingenuity; mechanically speaking, a Michanikos would suit your vision better, as they are basically Artificers writ super-massive.

More to the point, I don't think Objective Reality is impossible to form a Mythos around. A Mythos is just a narrative used to formulate and justify having really cool and exciting power suites. So tell me: what is objective reality within the confines of a narrative in progress? What kind of narratives run on logical and scientific inquiry?

Inevitability

2017-02-16, 01:29 PM

Morphic tide

2017-02-16, 04:29 PM

So, I had an idea. It's maybe not a great idea, but I'll be without internet for the remainder of the month and figured I should at least throw it out.

Basically, I'm considering creating a class around the Mentor Archetype (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MentorArchetype). Depending on the mythos picked, characters could be anything between an Enigmatic Empowering Entity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnigmaticEmpoweringEntity), a Spirit Advisor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpiritAdvisor), and the general 'old wise guy' who travels with a party of misfits.

Examples of the kind of character I'm trying to replicate would be Gandalf, Merlin, Frank (Donnie Darko) and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

So what do you think? Does this sound like a viable class? What name should I give it?

No idea about the class name, but it sounds like a great buffer class with an excuse for insane time numbers.

The Mythos I'd like to see would be lots and lots of Competence bonuses to things. Excellencies applying basic bonuses like physical attributes and temporary hit points, while Mythos give bizarre effects, sometimes linking to Leadership like boosting Cohort and Follower level outright, giving BAB, CL, ML and IL bonuses, increasing Essentia capacity and so on. Learning spells, powers, maneuvers and Soulmelds of your own with Excellencies and then being able to instruct allies in how to use them with Mythos, along with giving them feats, allowing you to literally be the toolbelt for the other characters of the party.

Durations on effects should be based on the thing given and means of giving it. Simple number increases taking hours to apply, then lowering gradually over the course of days, with single target bonuses lasting much longer. Stuff like spells, powers and maneuvers should be making an ally use it as a combat-viable action, using up whatever resource it uses from the ally instead of you, with them getting to use it with their own actions for some limited duration, possibly turns per level. Cohort-specific bonuses should be indefinite, basically making the cohort into a second character you control, with some catch that forces you to use lower-power classes on the Cohort. Preferably a whitelist of classes, rather than a blacklist, so that you have very strict, controllable limits on the power of the cohort. It'd also help keep the needed Mythos for teaching them abilities they use low enough to be manageable. And to stop you from having an Druid cohort with doubled CL...

Alternatively, instead of Leadership proper, you can have it get a class feature that acts as a less problematic version of Leadership. Lower cohort level and less/no followers, mainly, but also have the "allowed classes" list to keep it under control.

Xefas

2017-02-21, 06:01 PM

Examples of the kind of character I'm trying to replicate would be Gandalf, Merlin, Frank (Donnie Darko) and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

So what do you think? Does this sound like a viable class? What name should I give it?

This is a great idea, and something Primal Fury and I have talked about at length (a long while ago) in PMs. Someone should definitely make something like it in D&D.

In Mythopoeia, one of the Eight Divinities will be The Lodestar, whose themes are guidance, travel, wisdom, and patience. The Lodestar is also a bright physical star in the sky that doesn't move its position based on the time of year; it always sits in the north, making it the basis for navigation all over the mortal realm. Conceptualizing their Anthols was one thing that lead me towards the idea for Mythic Resonance, giving players [Stuff] for acting in accordance with the legends of their fellow party members. The Anthols of the Lodestar are, ostensibly, wise mentors who give great advice. This would suck for the player if no one ever took their advice seriously.

Anyway, if any of you are interested, I just started up a Choose Your Own Adventure based on Dungeon World over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516076-Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-Generic-Fantasy-(The-Godwar-in-the-South)) (though the mechanics aren't used by the players; they just make choices) earlier today.

I was considering throwing up a Dungeon World game in the PbP forum, but I wasn't certain how the mechanics would interact with play-by-post, so I did this instead. Be an adventurer! Make friends! Kill orcs! Get rich*!

(*riches void in the case of unprevented apocalypse)

Xefas

2017-02-22, 03:04 AM

I've updated the google doc concerning Mythopoeia's Ten Hells with the 6th through 10th Hells, ostensibly completing it! Though, I have not done a good editing pass for spelling and grammar on them. Here is the link again. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fa1uIgeinTZe0zQQ1G3UMC5hhi7J8QLcRfxWEZT79dU/edit?usp=sharing)

I'm not sure these are actually being read, as I don't think there's a way to check how many views a doc is getting. But, regardless, I will likely be doing the chambers of the Eight Divinities next. Or perhaps some mortal-level setting info about money and language and stuff. Something.

Mechanically, work is getting done, but I don't want to talk about it yet.

Dr_Dinosaur

2017-02-24, 02:58 PM

The general idea I have is that they would end up as high, high t1 against any non-Mythos enemy, or other sorts of physics warpers, simply because they are the Embodiment of exploitation of Objective Reality. But once the actual reality warping starts up, and I'm talking Mythos type reality warping/breaking, not magic, they become increasingly useless as you go higher up in power. Would this even work with the Mythos setting? Like, is that sort of thing compatible with the nature of the Mythos setting, or is it outside the nature of what Mythos are?

I would suggest that this seems more like the "anti-mythos" mythos if anything. Like, preventing other mythos users from warping reality, grounding them and bringing them down to normal while all of your stuff keeps working.

Morphic tide

2017-02-24, 03:59 PM

I would suggest that this seems more like the "anti-mythos" mythos if anything. Like, preventing other mythos users from warping reality, grounding them and bringing them down to normal while all of your stuff keeps working.

That might actually be an interesting niche for it... Like, one side of the class is making base/army stuff that fails when subjected to Mythos attacks, but also being able to weaken/disable other Mythos users when present in-person.

GreaserFish

2017-03-01, 06:12 AM

I'm not sure these are actually being read, as I don't think there's a way to check how many views a doc is getting. But, regardless, I will likely be doing the chambers of the Eight Divinities next. Or perhaps some mortal-level setting info about money and language and stuff. Something.
Consider me to be reading along and waiting with bated breath. Your Hells are exceptionally creative and I can't wait to see the rest of the setting unfold.

PeacefulOak

2017-03-08, 10:56 AM

I also am following and enjoying the process.

Question about the 3.5 version: does anyone have experience playing a non-evil Jaganatha? I have a player who is heading that route, and want to help make the experience an enjoyable one.

Lanth Sor

2017-03-08, 03:15 PM

Newly created Mythos Compendium 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517754-Mythos-Compendium-2-0) Please let me know if there is something I missed. Ill be including links for non 3.5 stuff too.

EdinoiZ

2017-03-29, 02:00 PM

Well, unless it's defunct, I believe you missed the Random Mythos Document. But I replied to the thread and linked that.

Also... Would anyone be interested in rumping about with some Mythos classes (and possibly gestalt)? I'm feeling myself getting a bit... Well, I really want to play in one. Blame Asura's Wrath, The Blade Itself, and other awesome fiction for that <.<

So yeah, thought I'd check here and then post an Interest Check or something...

PeacefulOak

2017-03-29, 02:56 PM

I think gestalt mythos is a concept that doesn't sit terribly well, for me.

I could get behind playing a mythos game, and I'd enjoy playing an Eoteras if we could find a game master willing to play a game starting from earlier levels.

I think a level 1 start mythos based game could be really interesting.

Actually.... hmmm. I've had a game idea that has been percolating that -would- work with the mythos system and concept.

The concept is that IRL people (like Earth, 2017) who are anthols (though they don't realize it), stumble into a world of magic and mythology where their stories unfold.

My -original- concept was to do that, but have everyone play as -themselves-, but gaining class levels/abilities on entry into the world.

EdinoiZ

2017-03-29, 04:01 PM

That sounds like a rather good campaign idea, both of them (though SIs are usually better done in less rigorous rule systems).

In regards to gestalt I can drop it like a hot potato as long as I get to Mythos! Though the original idea I had was to have the gestalting be downwards in Class Tiers, hitting T3-6 or T4-6 instead of T1-2 on the non-mythos side.

Still, hot potato. In air.

Towards ground.

Dropped it.

Lanth Sor

2017-03-30, 09:05 AM

As someone who has loved gestalt form the first gestalt + mythos = /GM QUIT. (I was GM)

khadgar567

2017-03-30, 09:07 AM

As someone who has loved gestalt form the first gestalt + mythos = /GM QUIT. (I was GM)
I think i can feel you mate mythos + any thing will probably hit high tier one with out much effort

nikkoli

2017-03-30, 09:52 AM

As someone who has loved gestalt form the first gestalt + mythos = /GM QUIT. (I was GM)

Yeah but then you said tristalt double mythos evolutionist with as many flaws as you want and near free reign of PF 3.5 and most anything d20 was game, and stared in disbelief of what the party was.

Ah yes, the point, don't mix gestalt and mythos it goes places DMS don't like

Morphic tide

2017-03-30, 09:54 AM

Yeah but then you said tristalt double mythos evolutionist with as many flaws as you want and near free reign of PF 3.5 and most anything d20 was game, and stared in disbelief of what the party was.

Ah yes, the point, don't mix gestalt and mythos it goes places DMS don't like

Okay, I need to know the utter world shattering hell that came out of that...

nikkoli

2017-03-30, 09:56 AM

Okay, I need to know the utter world shattering hell that came out of that...

If my sheet is on myth weavers I'll link it, if its in the roll20 room I'll see about copying it to one and showing what happened. We only made it from lvl 1-3ish. hmmm.
i cant remember if there was one or 2 tristalt games one of them i was an ogre mage (from the wow d20 stuff) // Dark Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285407-The-Dark-Mage-the-Sorcerer-and-the-Summoner-3-5-Fire-Emblem&p=15312656#post15312656) // Riftwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17655609&postcount=3). This guy was a 2 headed ogre that had full archivist and wizard casting, and i had constitution to EVERYTHING except AC and reflex saves. that sheet is in roll20 and it would take hours to copy over. He made it to level 8 and had ~ 800 HP becasue we used mana, and he had the spell mana shield. and he had some 36-40 CON, and they were mythic (PF) so he had mythic diehard. One of the other players was an atomie (tiny or diminuitive sized fey from PF), and he was jaganatha, belletor, something or other. So when talking he acheived everything, but having like 6 str on both of those classes kinda sucked for him.
The other tristalt i think was Belletor // oletherofex// evolutionist. I was the "Marble Knight" and started belletor //fighter // evolutionist and then died and was turned into a ghoul and got to swap bonus feats for more mythos. I also had an effective CHA of ~50.

PeacefulOak

2017-03-30, 10:32 AM

Well, I did it. I posted a 3.M recruitment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519890-3-5-Mythos-Game-No-Longer-in-Kansas&p=21864895#post21864895) thread. Hope it gets some traction!

EdinoiZ

2017-03-30, 11:37 AM

Posting again to let you guys know that the interest thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519899-That-Legendary-MYTHOS-interest-check&p=21865142#post21865142) is up.

EDIT: And derp. My bad...

Lanth Sor

2017-03-30, 12:50 PM

Nikkoli is a common thread of regret in 90% of my games.

party rolls up with +12 base damage to single target he srolls up and make everyting in a 30ft radius reflex save or take 30.(common theme).

PeacefulOak

2017-03-30, 01:03 PM

Nikkoli is a common thread of regret in 90% of my games.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...? ;)

nikkoli

2017-03-30, 01:54 PM

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...? ;)

Yeah we are on take 30. My first dnd character ever was a terramach. Lanth recommended the class to me, he was the GM

Lanth Sor

2017-04-03, 04:44 PM

I reopened Magos for the hate mail and added a banner.

Also below a new Fantastic Mythos for Archikos please PEACH

In the Ring I Dance, In the Ring You Fall
Prerequisite: -
[Pristine]

Rings of mushrooms are known to appear throughout the world, marking places where the first world bleeds through. Its believed that fey gather at these points, the truth is not far from it, fey are responsible for such places.

As a standard action, spawn a ring of mushrooms called a faerie circle. This faerie circle grants you and your allies a +1/5th class level(min 1) luck bonus to AC and any d20 rolls made while in the circle. The faerie circle has a diameter of 5ft per 2 levels.

Basic
Arbor Trees: Trees sprout up around the edge of the circle blocking any path to its heart. The trees are as tall as the circles radius and 5ft in diameter creating a perfect seal as they butt up against one another. They have the same hit points as a tree of equal size. This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time. [Plant]

Encircle the Breach: The word "diameter" is replaced with "radius" for determining the circles size.

Stone Ring: The mushrooms are replaced with small stones bearing ancient glowing runes. While in the ring you gain a +1/2 class level(min +1) to any check to make a deal, in addition to the normal bonus. Additionally any deal made while in the ring has its DC increased by 2.This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time.

Wisps of the First: Anyone who starts the night sleeping in this faerie circle gains the benefit of the Restful Sleep spell. Tiny yellow motes fill the air as if the entire area is filled with dancing lights, except they only provide dim light. [Prsitine]

Verdant Growth Extrapolation: The area is filled with thick under growth providing half cover to medium creatures beyond 5ft and total cover to anything small creatures beyond 5ft, smaller creatures gain +10 to hide checks for each size below small. The radius is increases to changes from 5ft increments to 7.5ft. However the only verdant growth and manifestations requiring verdant growth benefit form the increased increment. As such the passive luck bonuses don't begin until 10ft for a lvl 4 archikos even though their Verdant Growth Extrapolation coves 15ft. [Plant]

Advanced
Arbor of the Storm: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Arbor Trees. Along the edge of the circle a tree sprout up and then in a sudden flash all of them are struck by lightning leaving a static field around them. Instead of the normal impassible ring of trees there is a tree every 5ft. around the edge. Anyone who passes by or begins their turn adjacent to one of these trees takes your cha mod lightning damage. This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time. [Lightning]

Field of Flames: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Verdant Growth Extrapolation. Activating this manifestation is a standard action that requires Verdant Growth Extrapolation to be active. Fire based effects are 50% more effective in the circle, and cold based effects are only half as effective in the flames. The flames themselves do 1d4 fire damage to all but the archikos and charisma mod people. This is a ring Augment you may only use one ring augment at a time. [Fire]

Guard the Breach: The circle now effects a area of 5ft per level.

Henge of the Ancients: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Stone Ring. The stones become massive arches, akin to Stonehenge, bearing archaic runes. With every word that you speak the runes thrum with power. All language dependent abilities you use have +2 caster level. Additionally any contract made while in the space including all forms of summoning magic have their duration doubled. [Aklo]

Motes of the First: Anyone who starts the night sleeping in faerie circle gains the benefit of the Nap Stack spell. Tiny yellow motes fill the air as if the entire area is filled with dancing lights. [Pristine]

Safe Arborage: To acquire this manifestation you must first have Arbor Trees, Wisps of the First, and Motes of the First. The space inside the arborage radiates a pale blue lights that is some how soothing. Lush grass and flowers grow with in the arbor to the creator's liking. While in the circle all organic matter is healed 1 hp per minute. Also damage to physical ability scores is restored at a rate of 1 per hour. For every 1 point of ability damage restored the Archikos is fatigued for 1 hour after the circle is dismissed. This is a ring Augment you may only use 1 ring augment at a time. [Pristine]

Court of the First Pact
Prerequisite: Henge of the Ancients

None still live who know its ancient purpose, but many have found the court at the heart of the jungle. Massive monoliths of stone shaped in elegant arches, runes of inlaid marble glow with magic too ancient to divine, and words too eldritch to know. There is a high chair center, and set back with a large stone table bearing the exact number of seats for each person to enter the sanctum.

By spending a minute channeling the archikos can cause their Henge of the Ancients shift and move into a grand court made of stone. The design is determined by the archikos upon taking the mythos. They all provide a grand discussion room in the center and a signature area weather a grand podium or table.

When entering the Court of the First Pact the archikos may designate any number of persons as part of a council. No person can be part of a council if they are larger than the entrance to the court or they would take up more than 1/5th the radius of the court. Any creature not part of the council must will save or be unable to enter the court.

When council is held in the Court of the First Pact the archikos has the ability to force everyone in the court to will save or be unable to speak for 1 round. The archikos can choose to exclude as many targets as they like.

At the end of any council in the court the archikos may draw up a contract and all signing participants will be held to any regulations agreed upon in the council.

If any participant of the council that signed the contract should break the terms of the signed contract they begin to lose 2 to all ability scores per day they are in violation of the contract. Alternatively, the council can define the repercussions of breaking the contract.

After the contract has been signed it cannot be modified and no one not agreed upon at time of creation of the contract can sign the contract.

Any contract made as the result of a council is held in the library of the court. The library is only accessible while the court is manifested. Most often the library is a section of locked shelves. The contracts themselves are wondrous magic items for all intents and purposes, and are treated as if they were made of a material as durable as Adamantine.

PeacefulOak

2017-04-10, 03:32 PM

So I'm updating my Eoteras (link in my signature) again. :)

All this mythos talk has inspired me to hopefully bring it to completion.

I would greatly appreciate whatever feedback anyone might have.

Gideon Falcon

2017-04-17, 11:50 PM

Xefas

2017-04-23, 02:38 AM

We 5e now, boys. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522575-5e-Mythos-General-Rules-Swordbearer-Base-Class)

I'm not sure if we've got enough 5e interest for this to be a thing I continue to pursue in the long term, but maybe we do. Regardless, I'm going to put out at least a few classes.

I've got two that are >60% done, the Mechanikos and the Cynosure. Here's a Strawpoll (http://www.strawpoll.me/12807064) with which you can influence which one I work to finish up first (and also express your interest in seeing more classes without making an actual post, for you lurkers).

VoodooPaladin

2017-04-23, 03:25 AM

Voted for the Cynosure. I wanna see some fools get Geoffrey'd.

Drunken Jesus

2017-04-23, 11:12 AM

Does this mean no more new 3.5 mythos classes from you Xefas?

Xefas

2017-04-23, 05:47 PM

Does this mean no more new 3.5 mythos classes from you Xefas?

Not necessarily. But I won't be making any new 3.5 stuff until I buy a new PC, and it's further contingent on whether I'm able to recover the RPG folder from my old hard drive. (I mentioned this briefly a few pages back, in January, but my Christmas present from the universe was catastrophic computer failure.) If it turns out I lost everything, I'm not sure I can bring myself to rewrite it all. I had several classes at near completion, and many more at lesser stages of development, but with hours put into them nonetheless. Plus various supplementary Mythos (like the Mythic President, which I wrote two years ago, but forgot to post it the last two July 4ths and now the world may never get to see Crossing The Delaware Methodology and the Fifty Star Lariat, and the story of how Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington defeated the Sorcerer-King Napoleon, T-Rex Hitler, and the English).

This is why I've been futzing with other stuff. Among them, a stand alone system and setting for Mythos (Mythopoeia), and now Mythos for 5e.

Theseventh

2017-04-24, 09:28 AM

You would be surprised how cheap data recovery is, and how much they can pull from a borked drive. That's assuming that it was a hardware failure like a shorted power supply or something. If it was a software issue like a virus or corrupted data chances are a bit lower, but still possible.

Either way, if you manage to recover it you should dump all of your 3.5 mythos stuff, finished or not, to an external cloud drive or something. Keep it safe for the future and let others see if should something terrible happen again we can rebuild from your ideas.

dethkruzer

2017-04-24, 09:40 AM

now the world may never get to see Crossing The Delaware Methodology and the Fifty Star Lariat, and the story of how Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington defeated the Sorcerer-King Napoleon, T-Rex Hitler, and the English

Aww, now I'm actually kinda sad. That sounds amazing. Well, hopefully you can get something at least fished out of your hard drive.

khadgar567

2017-04-24, 10:43 AM

Not necessarily. But I won't be making any new 3.5 stuff until I buy a new PC, and it's further contingent on whether I'm able to recover the RPG folder from my old hard drive. (I mentioned this briefly a few pages back, in January, but my Christmas present from the universe was catastrophic computer failure.) If it turns out I lost everything, I'm not sure I can bring myself to rewrite it all. I had several classes at near completion, and many more at lesser stages of development, but with hours put into them nonetheless. Plus various supplementary Mythos (like the Mythic President, which I wrote two years ago, but forgot to post it the last two July 4ths and now the world may never get to see Crossing The Delaware Methodology and the Fifty Star Lariat, and the story of how Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, and George Washington defeated the Sorcerer-King Napoleon, T-Rex Hitler, and the English).

This is why I've been futzing with other stuff. Among them, a stand alone system and setting for Mythos (Mythopoeia), and now Mythos for 5e.

You would be surprised how cheap data recovery is, and how much they can pull from a borked drive. That's assuming that it was a hardware failure like a shorted power supply or something. If it was a software issue like a virus or corrupted data chances are a bit lower, but still possible.

Either way, if you manage to recover it you should dump all of your 3.5 mythos stuff, finished or not, to an external cloud drive or something. Keep it safe for the future and let others see if should something terrible happen again we can rebuild from your ideas.
If its from power then you are luck mate cuz all your files are intact in old disk just buy hdd drive connecting set and all your files back as normal

Gideon Falcon

2017-04-24, 12:10 PM

I suppose that lost info includes the missing mythos from Olethrofex? There are a few that just have names but no description.

Zale

2017-04-24, 04:45 PM

Has anyone thought of revisiting the Mythic Rogue archetype? From the compendium, the most complete and IMO best attempt was the Umbramendax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369117-3-5-Mythos-%93Beware-lest-you-lose-the-substance-by-grasping-at-the-shadow-quot-PEACH), which just needed Exalted and a few more Legendary Mythos, and perhaps a few more excellencies. There was also an Ophidian mentioned in Xefas' upcoming gallery, but I can't quite tell if that's supposed to be the rogue or a shadowcaster (not that those are especially disparate ideas). Maybe if I end up getting enough ideas, I might try my own hand, but I'm not exactly seasoned.

Alright, I was thinking about a mythic thief. The primary themes were greed and how it's bad for you, with a series of mythos evolving into stealing abstract concepts and the like.

I didn't get super far, as some things came up, but I could post the work I had to a pastebin/google doc if someone wants to pick it over.

Some of the thought-theme characters were Vriska (Homestuck), Loki (Mythology) and Cio's old self (Kill Six Billion Demons).

The thematic quote I was thinking about using was actually a line from the last one, "Theiving is like a deadly poison to me. If I touch it, it will fill me up to the brim."

I was going to do a base-line capacity sweep, then go over it again with an eye to twisting it. Of course, it's a bit much to go on about as it's currently sitting at 3 half-done mythos and a bunch of one-line questionable ideas for later class features.

It's aiming for more of a class dungeoneering rogue/person who steals things than an assassin or shadow-master archetype. I'm pretty sure one of their mythos would probably end up being "Heist Planning Montage" themed ala the Anakito's Arete pool, but linked to a specific plan about how to infiltrate a place/obtain some object.

One of the high tier plans involved a class-feature pilfering ability.

Anyway, hope that's helpful in some way!

GreaserFish

2017-04-26, 12:28 AM

So, I'm revisiting an old idea. I'm not sure if this is any good, and I don't have any ideas for basic/advanced manifestations yet. All I know is that the Anakitos is cool, but it doesn't feel enough like a paladin to satisfy my urge to smite the wicked and provide succor to the weak.

Heart's Eye Awakening
[Compassion]
Prerequisite : Two ranks in the Sense Motive skill.
Oft, the Martyr looked upon the state of the world and weeps for the injustice they saw there. All people suffer, they realized, and all people deserve a chance.

Upon taking this mythos, the following effect immediately activates.
You become deeply and intimately aware of the emotions and trauma of those around you, feeling it all as if it was your own.
Make a sense motive check. Roll three times and take the highest result.
In order to leave this state of heightened empathy, you must make a will save as a move action against the sense motive check you just made.
A natural twenty will always succeed in bringing you down from the empathy.
Every round you fail to come down from this state, you take a stacking -2 morale penalty to all rolls other than your will save to leave the state, to a maximum of -10.
Every minute that passes after leaving the state removes one -2 penalty from the stack.
Once you have recovered from the initial experience of feeling the emotions of the people around you, you may attempt to attune your emotions with another creature.
In order to attune a creature, it must have a mind and be capable of experiencing emotion.
Make a sense motive check against any creature that qualifies and is within your line of sight.
That creature opposes your check with a will save.
If your check is higher, you gain a temporary understanding of that creature's emotions and a +2 circumstances bonus on any diplomacy/bluff/handle animal checks against that creature, whichever is applicable.
If your check is higher by at least four points, you pierce deeper into that creature's heart and gain an understanding of who they are as a person/monster/sentient bulldog/etc.
You gain another, permanent +2 circumstance bonus on any rolls where understanding that creature's motivations and emotions would be useful.
Understanding is a two-way street, however, and the attuned creature gains a +2 circumstances bonus to the same rolls.
If the creature succeeds in rolling higher, then you gain no special insight into its mind.
If it succeeds by four or more points or rolls a nat 20, it becomes aware of the foreign presence in its mind.
Creatures capable of using psionics or other mental abilities can trace the effect back to you.
Regardless of whether or not they are aware of the connection, the attuned creature is not aware of the sway they now hold over your emotions.
The connection lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice your wisdom modifier. At the end of the connection, the attunement and temporary bonuses end.

Gideon Falcon

2017-04-26, 01:28 PM

roko10

2017-04-30, 12:47 PM

To those who are still unaware, Xefas has released (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522575-5e-Mythos-General-Rules-Swordbearer-Base-Class) a bunch of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522905-5e-Mythos-The-Cynosure-Base-Class) cool Mythos classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523109-5e-Mythos-The-Mechanikos-Base-Class) for 5E. Hell, even I got in on the fun! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523461-The-Kalthorros-(Mythos-5E-Conversion)) Go check them out.

Inevitability

2017-04-30, 03:12 PM

I'm definitely going to jump on the proverbial 5e bandwagon and brew up something of my own soon.

Theseventh

2017-04-30, 09:39 PM

I'l be honest. Sad to see the jump to 5e. I don't care about 5e at all and I know this is going to mortally wound, or at the very least slow, the continued development of the 3.5 stuff. Call me selfish I guess.

Reminds me of Gramarie all over again. Old system was not done, it had it's flaws yes. But then everyone decided to jump ship to begin working on a new version that never panned out and now both are dead. Sad times.

ImperatorV

2017-04-30, 11:50 PM

Eh we already have 3 Xefas classes and 1 non-Xefas. I don't see this one dying out with the switch to 5e, in fact it might inspire people to make new material, which can be back-ported to 3.5 by people who still prefer that system.

Also, Grammarie died mostly because it was too darn complicated, and everything was so interconnected that it all had to be finished to be playable. A problem of too much work and not enough results. Mythos, especially the 5e version, is made in smaller chunks that are easier to handle, and we already have enough for a full party (Swordbearer frontline + Cynosure leader + Mechanikos crafter + a regular full caster works really well as a standard party).

Gideon Falcon

2017-05-01, 04:18 PM

roko10

2017-05-01, 04:25 PM

The 5e Mythos classes aren't easily back-converted, though- they have very specific abilities, rather than the expansive list of Mythos that most classes have available to them. I'm still holding out that some of the suggestions people have made for harddrive recovery will be able to help Xefas get his old docs back.

As a counterpoint, however, this also means that the 5e Mythos classes can be produced way faster than the 3.5e classes. Heck, I managed to finish up the newly minted Kalthorros in roughly a day compared to the week that it took to get the original Kalthorros up in its unfinished state.

Beside that, most of the 3.5e Mythos allows some specific thing that's normally impossible for "mundanes" to do in 3.5e thanks to it "have a rule for everything" mindset, something that 5e notably lacks. Therefore, 5e Mythos can get away with a lower amount of options rather than the bucketlist granted by the 3.5e Mythos.

On a completely unrelelated note, I can't wait to see the Anakitos getting converted to 5e. It's Fetters (especially the DIY Code of Conduct) would be an absolutely fantastic way to trigger Resonance, instead of now where I kind of feel it's kind of a straitjacket.

Gideon Falcon

2017-05-01, 08:52 PM

Still, I really hope Xefas can get his info back. I enjoy 5e well enough, but I vastly prefer 3.5.

Xefas

2017-05-04, 02:12 AM

A new 5e Mythos Class is coming in the next day or two. Its 3.5 incarnation never came to be, but was probably the single most requested class of all those in the imgur album. After this class, I'm hoping to focus a bit on polishing the four I've got before pushing out new ones.

A preview:

Aside The Light Of Truth
"I Am." said the Empyrean, and so it was that she existed. And outlined by the light of that universal truth, the All-Shadow whispered, "I Am Not." and by the lie of his beginning, he entered false existence. In that act was the genesis of all deceit.

Choose one of the following three abilities to acquire.

Insidious Gossip Infection
When you use the Deception skill to tell someone something emotionally manipulative, misleading, or false, you may activate this ability to transform your lie into an insidious mental parasite, giving it a particular identity to seek out. Your Deception automatically fails against its original target, who does not believe what you've said, but your parasite scrambles inside of its shadow and lurks there, undetected.

The next time the infected person is nearby whomever's identity you gave the parasite, they will be compelled to repeat your parasitic falsehood to them, secretly, as if gossiping. Your original Deception check is then applied to this newest person, who may very well be deceived into believing it is true. The parasite then dies, having fulfilled its task. If it would be unusual for the parasite's host to gossip with its intended recipient (for example, a lesser noble whispering in the king's ear at court), the host may be allowed a Charisma saving throw to resist the compulsion, at which point the parasite dies anyway.

One of these mental parasites can survive a maximum of (your Charisma modifier) weeks in wait, before it expires prematurely.

Two-Faced Instigator Method
Miscommunications happen every day. Two people with the best of intentions argue over nothing, incited by slightly misplaced semantics or a misheard word. People with fundamentally identical beliefs fight with one another over small differences in their ideology's window-dressing. The All-Shadow is not a victim of miscommunication, he is its progenitor, and it is his weapon - a broken sword that cuts down nations without ever being drawn.

When you speak, you may choose to say two things. One is your primary message, which is heard by everyone by default. One is your secondary message, which replaces your primary message for specific individuals that you mentally target (you must be aware of a person's presence to target them, though you need not necessarily see them).

If both of your messages are largely similar, but for a few small changes, there is no saving throw. If your messages are wildly different, then you must make a Deception check against your audiences in order to keep your words straight between them; a failed check means that someone has realizes you're trying to dupe them, though they don't necessarily know how, why, or into what.

For example, you might address a senate divided into three parties. You begin speaking, delivering a default message of supporting a particular piece of legislature, which you choose for the progressive and moderate parties to hear, as well as anyone who happens to be wandering about whose presence you are unaware of and are not specifically targeting - however, you choose for the traditionalist party to hear your secondary message, which is that you vehemently oppose the same piece of legislature. Because both messages are about the same thing, just slightly different, you need not make a Deception check.

For a second example, you might be talking to a man in his home, aware that his wife is in the next room, listening. The default message you give for all to hear is a suggestion that you and the man go hunting this weekend, to which he is heartily in favor of. The secondary message, which only the wife hears, is a conspiratorial plot to help her husband murder her - she hears this, as well as her husband's excitement at doing so this weekend. Because these messages are quite different, you must make a Deception check opposed by both people. If the husband succeeds in opposition, he might get the impression that this hunting trip suggestion is really innuendo about how much you hate his wife, while the wife succeeding might divulge to her that you're saying a lot of horrible things about her, but that her husband has nothing to do with it and is talking past you about something else.

Society-Felling Apathy Scythe
As an action, you may make a Deception check targeting everyone that has just witnessed a horrible, scandalous, socially unacceptable act that you were present for. As part of the check, you do not necessarily tell a lie, but rather inform everyone that they would personally be better off if they simply ignore what has just transpired - to talk about it would only invite personal inconvenience upon them.

Those that fail to oppose the check are still very much aware that the act transpired, but will not talk about it with anyone unless they are directly facing imminent death in retribution for not speaking of it. They will deny with every fiber of their being that they saw anything at all, swear to their gods that they weren't there, and pretend for the rest of their life that what they're doing is okay. You become mentally aware of anyone targeted by this ability that succeeded in opposing your check, but your targets are also aware that you'll know if they aren't convinced. Some bystanders will intentionally fail the check to avoid your wrath, if they suspect you have wrath to give.

For example, you stab a drunk to death in the middle of a crowded bar and then activate this ability. You tell everyone that, if they don't just turn around and go back about their business, they're putting themselves at risk for the same. "You forget a thousand things every day. Make sure this is one of them." Several people fail their opposed check but some succeed. You grab one of the ones who succeeded and stab them to death too, then activate the ability again. This time, no one succeeds; imagine that. An hour later, a few new faces walk in, see the bodies, and run to the town guard. The guards show up, question everyone, but mysteriously no one saw anything; the bodies just appeared covered in stab wounds for no reason. The guards start roughing up the barkeep, breaking a few stools, smashing some glasses, making threats, but he swears nothing like that happened in his bar. Meanwhile, you hang out in the corner making everyone super uncomfortable.