Dealing with Deities in 3.5

[Doctor Despair]

So in the ward text for epic spells it describes this function:

"A ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check."

So I know that, for all intents and purposes, epic spells are treated as tenth level spells. Could a ward prevent the effects of tenth level spells from manifesting in its radius? My character wants to prevent spellcasting as much as possible. My working idea is this path:

WardSpellcraft DC" 14
Change From Target to Area" 24
Affects 10th level spells: 44
Affects 9th level spells: 64
Affects 8th level spells: 84
Affects 7th level spells: 104
Affects 6th level spells: 124
Affects 5th level spells: 144
Affects 4th level spells: 164
Affects 3rd level spells: 184
Affects 2nd level spells: 204
Area increased to 360 ft radius (I feel like much bigger seems... broken. Am I wrong?): 272
Ten minute casting increase 252
14 folks with 9th level spells (through wizardly shenanigans like summons, ice assassin, etc, and 15 casters just feels right ornamentally) 14
Permanent 80

I know it's no Rite of Shar, but with two uses of it a day at the 21st level, it's a start. At least, if it functions the way I think it does. It also says that a targeted dispel or a spell from the dispel seed could stop it, but if it prevents the effects from being inside as an area spell, I'm not sure how that functions. If it functions the way I think it does, I think this may be one of the only sure-fire ways to prevent deities from casting spells, at least within its radius -- or with spells within its radius. I'm not sure how it would interact with divine salient abilities though.

I know that invoke magic description reads: "You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the area of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane." This is not antimagic, dead magic, or null magic -- it merely reads that it is preventing it. Is this an accurate reading?

Also, if you were to cast a ward spell on yourself protecting against tenth level magic... Would you personally be able to cast while within this field? This is important both for abuse by the caster of the AOE ward, but also in preparation for such an AOE ward.
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Edit: OOPS! Just realized I did the permanency wrong. Well, that's awkward. Still, I'd like to hear some thoughts on the concepts I talked about here, so I'll leave it while I think it over. I suppose, if it came to it, I could throw levels at it from summons and people as well to mitigate the (massive) DC presently.

If I were to just make an army of mage-batteries...

Ward Spellcraft DC: 14
Change From Target to Area: 24
Affects 10th level spells: 44
Affects 9th level spells: 64
Affects 8th level spells: 84
Affects 7th level spells: 104
Affects 6th level spells: 124
Affects 5th level spells: 144
Affects 4th level spells: 164
Affects 3rd level spells: 184
Affects 2nd level spells: 204
May as well make it a mile radius: 1260
May as well make it instantaneous: 1288
May as well take away verbal/somatic components: 1232
Permanent: 6160
After my spellcraft modifier: 6080

So that means 3040 spell slots need to be given up for this spell from as few as 338 mages. Kind of a big deal. :/

[Werephilosopher]

I know that invoke magic description reads: "You cause a flicker of magic to momentarily exist in a place where magic cannot normally function, such as within the area of an antimagic field, a dead magic area, or a null-magic plane." This is not antimagic, dead magic, or null magic -- it merely reads that it is preventing it. Is this an accurate reading?

The ward seed does not create an antimagic, dead magic, or null magic area. However, a ward that blocks all spell effects is still "a place where magic cannot normally function."

[ExLibrisMortis]

Spellcasting deities tend to get a lot of very-high-level slots. Wee Jas, for example, has 18th-level slots for her wizard casting. However, as statted in Deities & Demigods, deities do not use epic rules (except for epic bonus progressions), so they don't have epic casting or epic heightening - they can cast 9ths at best, so they can't penetrate your shield.

When I restatted Wee Jas with epic feats and items (48 million gp WBL for being level 60, iirc), she was spontaneously casting wizard spells of up to 27th level, with practically free metamagic (all costs are +1), and Alter Reality and epic spells on top of that. This Wee Jas would have no problem at all breaking through your shield, by simply heightening a spell up to 11th level.

That said, if you want to break deities over your knee, epic spells are the way to do it. Few things are more broken in 3.5 (I'd like to point out that it's the first and only thing outright banned in Tippy's Points of Light setting).

[Doctor Despair]

Spellcasting deities tend to get a lot of very-high-level slots. Wee Jas, for example, has 18th-level slots for her wizard casting.

Wait, there are higher spell slots? Where was this instituted? I thought tenth level was the highest. D:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wait, there are higher spell slots? Where was this instituted? I thought tenth level was the highest. D:
You can take epic feats to get higher-level spell slots. Deities have salient divine powers that give them bonus spell slots based on their spellcasting modifier. There is no maximum. Pun-pun has NI NIth-level spell slots.

Edit: Look at the Epic Level Handbook, page 59.

[Doctor Despair]

You can take epic feats to get higher-level spell slots. Deities have salient divine powers that give them bonus spell slots based on their spellcasting modifier. There is no maximum. Pun-pun has NI NIth-level spell slots.

Edit: Look at the Epic Level Handbook, page 59.

I suppose this could technically be answered by throwing increasingly large amounts of spells at the ward to make it address 11th, 12th, 13th, etc. level spells, but at that point the game just begins to reek far too much of cheese. I'll settle for preventing mortal spells then -- that's actually in character for this character, anyway.At least in terms of that ward.

Is there any method you know of that can prevent a deities' spells? I glanced at the class dedicated to it (Defiant) and it seemed pitifully insufficient for any sort of confrontation -- granted most things would be! As an epic mage, I was hopeful some sort of protection might be handy.

Thus far, I was considering casting Awaken Construct on an iron golem as it was created and making sure there is an empty chamber in its chest cavity, then using hide life, astral projection to duplicate the effect, temporal stasis on the body, getting the friendly iron golem to lower its spell resistance, then using an extended magic jar to get into the golem's body and placing my own body in the chest cavity. If the golem is destroyed, I return to my natural body -- which is immune to damage, etc, and will have an extended mind blank and an Instant Refuge on it.

I'm not sure if this would be sufficient though! What are your thoughts?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It depends on what deities you are using. The actual spells that deities cast are just like normal spells, and they can be blocked as such. Salient divine abilities, like Alter Reality, work inside an antimagic field, and are not subject to SR. So if you want to kill a deity, that's probably not the best way to go.


A rank 15 or lower deity can be killed by simply doing a lot of damage inside the surprise round. Deities have a sensory range of 1 mile per divine rank, with high spot and listen modifiers, so maybe a shadowpouncer - supernatural wish to get next to the deity, high-damage pouncing charge, and then an immediate action (celerity into time stop into (Su) wish) to do so again. However, there's a decent chance you can just sneak up on them, since they don't have blindsight or mindsight or any of that. Just be incorporeal and naturally invisible (will-o'-wisp shapechange), with Darkstalker.

For a rank 16+ deity, it's essentially down to DM fiat. They know what you're up to 16 weeks ahead of time, and they hear you when you speak their names.

[Âmesang]

Honestly wouldn't any deity worth its salt have delay death permanently affecting them plus enough ranks in Autohypnosis so as to act even whilst at negative hitpoints, along with the spellcasting gods having Improved Heighten Spell? Should be pretty trivial after that to restore themselves to full hit points in the following round.

Granted, I came into this thread expecting the deity to have a specific ward against this specific ward which might require its own specific ward and now I remember why I stopped playing Yu-Gi-Oh! all those years ago. :smalltongue:

Of course that's why I like Thor: %&#$ spells, I'm just going to hit you in the face with a 2-ton warhammer from sixteen miles away.