Going To Play A Dread Necromaner

[Pavbat666]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to ask some advice about the dread necromancer. See, my D&D group seems to be tending more to evil and chaotic rather than good and lawful. I put up a previous post about me being a paladin in the group, and lately it seems like I am not fitting in. So, just in case, I want to play a dread necromancer next. However, I have some questions about how the "undead system" works. How do you get these undead, and carry them until I need them or until I have the needed supplies to animate them. I have heard people using a bag of holding to hold the dead bodies. That seems like a good idea, but that leads to my next question. Can I animate the undead and then hide them in the bag, or would they suffocate like normal creatures, or since they are undead they don't need to breathe? Any other tips on dread necromancy would be helpful as well!

[gadren]

You get undead through different sources:
The summon undead spells you get at lower levels are just like summon monster except with undead. You don't need a corpse, they just pop out of thin air.
At higher levels, you get animate dead and it's various incarnations. Those do require a corpse, but last MUCH longer. You also have the ability to control undead using your rebuke class feature.
And yes, you can store them in a portable hole or something, because they don't need to breathe. Though taking them out/putting them in might take up some valuable time.
You may want to look into getting a wand of Disguise Undead, depending on RP situations in your game. Or you can asks your DM to add Disguise Undead to the Dread Necromancer spelllist, or ask if you can learn it with the Advanced Learning class feature even though it isn't actually a necromancy spell.

[Crake]

You get undead through different sources:
The summon undead spells you get at lower levels are just like summon monster except with undead. You don't need a corpse, they just pop out of thin air.
At higher levels, you get animate dead and it's various incarnations. Those do require a corpse, but last MUCH longer. You also have the ability to control undead using your rebuke class feature.
And yes, you can store them in a portable hole or something, because they don't need to breathe. Though taking them out/putting them in might take up some valuable time.
You may want to look into getting a wand of Disguise Undead, depending on RP situations in your game. Or you can asks your DM to add Disguise Undead to the Dread Necromancer spelllist, or ask if you can learn it with the Advanced Learning class feature even though it isn't actually a necromancy spell.

Or just clothe them up and use a mundane disguise kit on their faces, hell if you fully armor them up, then people won't even realise unless you take off their helmet or something

[Draconium]

Or just clothe them up and use a mundane disguise kit on their faces, hell if you fully armor them up, then people won't even realise unless you take off their helmet or something

Well, depending on the undead in question, people may still wonder why that fully armored warrior who looks clean as a whistle smells like something died in that armor... :smalltongue:

[Norin]

Well, depending on the undead in question, people may still wonder why that fully armored warrior who looks clean as a whistle smells like something died in that armor... :smalltongue:

"Ahhh, i love the smell of adventurers in the morning!" :smalltongue:

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444394-New-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444597-The-Necromancer-Handbook
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471564-Revised-Necromancer-Handbook-(k)

these may help you out

[Pavbat666]

"Ahhh, i love the smell of adventurers in the morning!" :smalltongue:

Wouldn't that just make a great excuse to tell NPCs. :smallbiggrin:

[Drynwyn]

DID SOMEONE SAY DREAD NECROMANCER?!?!


The best undead storage mechanism for your money is a Collapsible Pit. It only works if you are LN, LE, or NE, but NE sounds like something you might be doing, so it works. It's a 50 foot deep portable hole for a mere 3,600 GP. What's more, it isn't technically a Portable Hole, so you can, by RAW, safely put a dozen more Enveloping Pits in your Enveloping Pit.

Look into Divine Metamagic. You are super charisma SAD, and therefore have a ton of Rebuke Undead uses. Three to four tons if you abuse Nightsticks (Held item, stacks with self, gives 4 extra Blank Undead uses.) Divine Metamagic lets you burn these to fuel metamagic. Eratta states that Divine Metamagic only works on Divine spells, but a) many groups don't use eratta and b) Southern Magician. Divine Metamagic: Fell Animate is particularly tasty, since it sidesteps that pesky material component for Animate Dead. Plus, if you're starting low-level, DMM: Fell Animate will let you have a few zombies from level 1, which is a big plus. DMM Fell Drain is also nice, and very flavor-appropriate. (Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist is an absolute NIGHTMARE, and can be pulled out at level 4 IIRC.) And remember: Things killed by negative levels come back as Wights, which you can then Rebuke/Command.

SERIOUSLY CONSIDER either blowing a level 1 feat on Tomb Tainted Soul, or finding a way (Such as Necropolitan) to be Undead yourself. Unlimited self healing from Charnel Touch is quite handy, especially if starting at low level.

Many guides will advise you prestige out as soon as you get Undead Mastery. While an excellent place to prestige out if there's already a PrC you're eyeing, you can get along quite well without prestiging at all.

Spellstitching. Look it up, but I can't be held accountable for the results.

Finally, play will move faster if you keep just 3-4 big undead out of the pit for most fights. A horde of lesser undead can be handy, but it will a) Clog the turn order and b) Be likely to die to AoE's in fights while failing to inflict meaningful damage. Leave them safe in their extradimensional space for fights they aren't helpful in.

[TheifofZ]

First: Undead, being undead, lack a con score. Period. This means that they are, among other things, immune to ability damage, crits, anything that requires a Fort save that doesn't work on objects, and very specifically, they do not need to eat, drink, sleep, or breathe. Stuff them into a bag of holding like sardines in a can. Pump out all the air for more room. They won't care. Especially not unintelligent ones.
Second: Spellcasting tips: The Dread necromancer is, by and large, not a combat spellcaster. Certainly, they learn spells for combat, but most of their spells are very large debuffs, instead.
Combined with the fact that your level 8 ability, for all intents and purposes, removes the limit on undead you can control with Animate Dead, and the Dread Necromancer does much, much better than almost any other class as a Debuff/ Undead-Buffing platform while their minions do all the hard work. Don't think you can be like the Evoker wizard or even a Transmuter. Your job in a party is to provide a screen of large rotting things that are horribly powerful, and to make anything that attacks you fail to do so spectacularly because you said so. When you get bonus spells from Advanced Learning, look for either Save or Die debuffs (not actual SoDs, you don't need those, really.) or really good minionmancy buffs. (Undead Torch is a perennial low level favorite.)
Third: Your Charnel Touch is basically fast healing 1/4th Dread Necromancer level outside of combat for your minions (and you if you're undead or have Tomb Tainted Soul). You should never even look at your Inflict spells, except if you're trying to hurt someone.
Fourth: Necromancy PrCs are thin on the ground, and most other Arcane Casting PrCs don't give the Dread Necro much without hitting something that makes them good. Seriously think about what you gain when/if you do PrC out.
Fifth: Everything is a minion if it's dead enough, but leave some space for the party to do things too. That's it, really. Your cap for undead under your control is hilariously high, to the point where grabbing a dead commoner and making it a zombie just to have it cart around your loot won't even be a drop in the bucket. If your party kills something that you can animate once you have the spells and materials for it, animate it. If you don't have the mats, Gentle Repose means that it'll stay fresh in your bag of bodies until you do. Most DMs won't give you the things that will make you super omgwtf op (Look at the Zombie Hydra. Haha, 12 attacks as a standard action, fast healing, and a boatload of HP makes for a super sexy zombie... guess what you aren't getting. Ever.) so get use to using whatever you find. You'll find that every shambling corpse is actually pretty useful for something eventually. Even a Zombie Sheep can check for traps the meatshield way.
However, there's a balance to this: If you want your party to be able to do anything, and don't want hour long turns, as was mentioned above: Keep out, at most, 3 or 4 big guys and use the rest as slave labor or as emergency bodies. You can also order them to obey your party members explicitly, which will give them free minions too.
Sixth: Seriously sit down and talk to the DM about what sort of monsters you might encounter so you can pre-gen the stats of your most likely acquisitions before the session.
Noone likes sitting around waiting while the Necromancer stats out three different types of minions. If he won't do that, practice applying the Zombie/Skeleton templates (including changes from class abilities and Feats.) until you can do it on the fly.
Seventh: Corpse Crafter and it's related feats might take up precious feat slots, but free stats for your mindless slaves only make you stronger. (Though how Corpse Crafter and Undead Mastery interact was Errata'd to negate the Str bonus from Corpse Crafter... but both are generally unused enough that not many people know.)
Eighth: Find something to use your Rebuking Charges. Divine Metamagic (Persist), (Extend), or (Reach Spell) are all amazing choices if the DM will let you use DMM on arcane spells in the first place. DMM Fell Animate is garbage for anything but early game, though.
Ninth: Remember that if you Rebuke:[Command] anything while using an ability that raises it's turn resistance, the critter is still under your control. Rebuking only checks Turning HD Vs Turning level once, when the check is made. So if you barely Command a Wight, and then Bolster it, nothing changes as it's under your command. However, undead with effective turning HD might reduce the number you can control through turning.
Finally: Remember that unintelligent undead are stupid and, much like a barbarian or 7 year old on 2 cans of energy drink, can't understand complex commands. Intelligent Undead can, but might do things you don't intend (like plan your murder) if you aren't careful.

Edit Notes: The spells in the Summon Undead family are either super vague or super limited. Try to get the vague ones, and keep the power used low. (Hehe. Summon Undead 2: Medium Zombie or Large skeleton? I summon a large size CR 15+ skeleton.)
Disguise is on the DN skill list. You can use it in conjunction with Graceful Repose if you only have a couple zombie minions to keep anyone that hates undead but lacks Detect Undead from figuring it out. ...Unlikely to work with skeletons, though. Doesn't matter how you cover them up, they're still going to clatter around like a bag of bones.

[drake_vampiel]

DN, are one of the BEST classes that you can take if you are wanting to get your cohorts on. You can control a small army by level 8. These undead can stay in a bag of holding because they don't need to breath, at a mid level once you can raise the dead just go to a town an cover of night sneak to the cemetery and raise a few skeletons or zombies, have then cover their holes so they don't raise suspicion, then do that til you reach your max number of controllable, you can equip them with junk for the most part, use your money to get the needed materials for this. As you get higher level you can raise the dead from battles and have a more substantial army, and use the equipment they have to better equip your army.

[Silva Stormrage]

[LIST]
Edit Notes: The spells in the Summon Undead family are either super vague or super limited. Try to get the vague ones, and keep the power used low. (Hehe. Summon Undead 2: Medium Zombie or Large skeleton? I summon a large size CR 15+ skeleton.)
Disguise is on the DN skill list. You can use it in conjunction with Graceful Repose if you only have a couple zombie minions to keep anyone that hates undead but lacks Detect Undead from figuring it out. ...Unlikely to work with skeletons, though. Doesn't matter how you cover them up, they're still going to clatter around like a bag of bones.

The summon undead line got updated in the Spell Compendium with specific undead being allowed to be summoned. It is still decent if not the best.

[TheifofZ]

The summon undead line got updated in the Spell Compendium with specific undead being allowed to be summoned. It is still decent if not the best.

Yes. I did note that it was either super vague (The un-updated version), or super limited.
I mean, yes, you can still get your minion on with the updated version, but it's not as open ended. I like the versatility enough that, when I roll DN, I usually persuade the DM to let me use the more open ended one under many vows and oaths not to abuse it.
Because 'small zombie' is much better than 'kobold zombie', even when you're stuck playing with only CR equivalent ones.

[noob]

Haunt Shift is an awesome spell for undead storage(Store your zombie army in dust particles in an mundane lead box then when it is the time release the horde which will follow the last orders it got before getting out of control(if zombies works like automaton) or hitting the nearest targets)
The problem is to get it on a dread necromancer.
Maybe have an item casting it X time per day(so you can do it progressively over time).
(the regularly made one costs 16200 per use per day and one made by an artificer imitating an sublime chord can have it with 0 PO per use per day(CL*spell level:(2(minimal CL for a sublime chord having fifth level spells)-2)*5) and if your artificier can not imitate CL 0 it costs 1800 per use per day(artificier is super broken))

Then for more dread know that WOTC have in one of his campaigns spellstitched the spell Animate Dread Warrior on one of the villains meaning that it is perfectly legit to have unlimited armies of dread warriors for no XP expense(but you create only one per day if you spellstitch yourself only once but you can spellstitch your dread warrior priests for more dreading)(in addition you need a lot of wisdom to spellstich yourself sixth level spells)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Your gaming group and GM may not appreciate you bringing a virtual army with you into combat and bogging it down with dozens of minion actions, so either pick one really big undead to have as a pet, or keep a few 'utility' undead minions around.

If you want, you can also focus on Fear effects. Aura of Terror works with your already (largely pathetic) fear aura to make it actually viable. Then you stack some other fear effect on top of it and you pretty much have a passive always-on no-pest strip. Enemies get too close, they turn around, piddle self, and run. This sort of build practically demands Dread Witch levels to bust through immunities which are otherwise prevalent.

Create Dread Warrior/Skeletal Champion is a really nice one to pick up with your Learning because it comes with class levels.

A Ring of Desecration would be a very useful thing to acquire.

Technically, you can make True Necromancer function as intended, since you meet all requirements if you pick up something like Southern Magician to make your spells count as either arcane or divine and pick up a one-level dip in Cleric for the domain requirement. Then pick up UrPriest for it to advance divine casting with. You end up with 9's on both sides of your casting, free desecrate aura, and a few other largely useless trinkets. Normally, True Necromancer is a big huge honkin' trap... Dread Necro entry makes it viable.

[TheifofZ]

A Ring of Desecration would be a very useful thing to acquire.

Technically, you can make True Necromancer function as intended, since you meet all requirements if you pick up something like Southern Magician to make your spells count as either arcane or divine and pick up a one-level dip in Cleric for the domain requirement. Then pick up UrPriest for it to advance divine casting with. You end up with 9's on both sides of your casting, free desecrate aura, and a few other largely useless trinkets. Normally, True Necromancer is a big huge honkin' trap... Dread Necro entry makes it viable.
Arcane Disciple (Evil) works a real treat for getting Desecrate on your spell list (As a divine spell, no less), and also nets you a slew of other spells, very few of which allow saves, meaning you only need a wis of 19 (13 plus +6 item) to cast all of them without worrying about getting them through. It does eat a feat slot, but it's not as if the Dread Necro really has a pressing need for feats; there are plenty of feats that are good on them, but the only ones you need to take are Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus Necromancy for the boost to over 2/3rds of your spell list, and Tomb Tainted Soul if you aren't Undead.

To be honest, True Necromancer still hurts Dread Necro; the loss of Advanced Learning and, at minimum, 3 total caster levels means you lost both your strongest spells and much of the versatility from Advanced Learning. It's not as much of a dead end trap as it is for others, but it still doesn't have as many benefits as going full DN.
If it scrapped the Divine requirements and divine casting advancement, it'd be almost a perfect alternate path for a Dread Necromancer, flavor and balance wise. As it is, it barely merits 'mediocre', even with early Dread Necro entry shenanigans.