Can't believe I'm asking this

[TOAOMT]

Alright, I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about the rules of D&D but someone argued this with me and I would like evidence beyond my own interpretation (I actually can't spell that word). My friend argued that a monk's flurry can be used as a standard action (and thus with moving and spring attack). My understanding is that you can never make more than one attack without a full round action. Please clarify so that I can either claim triumphant victory or admit humiliating defeat.

[Attilargh]

From the D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#multipleAttacks):

Multiple Attacks

A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack.

Also from the D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#flurryofBlows):

A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

[squishycube]

This would've been a good question for the Q&A Thread!
A standard action consists of only one attack except for abilities that specifically say they grant extra attacks on standard actions too.
See this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36006&page=45#1328) and this part (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

[TOAOMT]

Thanks, forgot about the Q&A thread (it's 4:30ish A.M. here). I appreciate the help though, you guys are awesome. Also, I was right! I'm not an idiot!

[Renx]

Still, having it as a standard attack would increase the usefulness of the monk as a PC by a great deal, so you might want to houserule it so.

[DraPrime]

That would make the monk waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful. Monks are strong enough as it is.

[Matthew]

Not really, though it would help to make the Monk better. I'm all for Mobile Flurry and Mobile Two Weapon fighting, though, so maybe I'm biast.

[Nebo_]

That would make the monk waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful. Monks are strong enough as it is.

HHAHAHahahah... ha.. ha... Oh wait, you were serious. Monks are one of the weakest classes, there are plenty of recent threads on these boards on that very topic. That's actually a very good fix for a monks, giving them synergy with their mobility and ability to hit like a machine gun.

[KoDT69]

Spring Attack [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Special
A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Hmmm. It looks to me that this feat specifically overrides the rule on the move action. Read the SRD section of Actions in Combat. It specifically states that a Full Attack (required for monk flurry) also allows a 5ft step move action in that given round. Spring Attack allows that move action to be before and after up to your speed in distance total. Why even take Spring Attack if it doesn't work that way? That would be pointless because if you only make a standard single melee attack you can still move a distance equal to your speed. :smallconfused:

Also from the SRD:

Move Action
A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Move Actions.

[NullAshton]

You might could use Psionic Fist, and use it to get Hustle, exchanging some power points and your swift action in order to gain a move action.

Then use said move action to move up to them, flurry, and use spring attack to move back out.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

There's another discussion on this thread about how underpowered Spring Attack is/when it's actually useful. As written and as everyone's using it, you get a single attack. Besides, I believe the Tempest gets a special attack called "Two-Weapon Spring Attack" that lets a character attack with both of their weapons once while using a Spring Attack. Clearly this wouldn't exist if Spring Attack allowed a full attack action.

Spring Attack would be far too overpowered if you could full attack off of it.

EDIT: Pounce won't work with Spring Attack, because it doesn't count as a charge. Spring Attack really is only useful in very, very specific scenarios that you'd have to sort of work your character around.

[Dausuul]

Hmmm. It looks to me that this feat specifically overrides the rule on the move action. Read the SRD section of Actions in Combat. It specifically states that a Full Attack (required for monk flurry) also allows a 5ft step move action in that given round.

A 5-foot step is not a move action. Moreover, your analysis misses a point: Spring Attack specifically says that you use it with "an attack action." Refer to the table of standard actions, here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#tableStandardActions); an attack action is a single attack, as opposed to a full attack action (see the table of full-round actions here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#tableFullRoundActions)).


Spring Attack allows that move action to be before and after up to your speed in distance total. Why even take Spring Attack if it doesn't work that way? That would be pointless because if you only make a standard single melee attack you can still move a distance equal to your speed. :smallconfused:

But normally you can only move either before, or after, your attack. That means you have to either start or end your turn next to your opponent, thus exposing yourself to a full attack. Spring Attack lets you leap in, stab, and leap out--handy when you're fighting something like a dragon that has a lot of relatively low-damage attacks.

It is underpowered, though. If only it could be used with Tome of Battle maneuvers...

[KoDT69]

Seriously, I interpret the wording of Spring Attack combined with the Move Action definition otherwise. I'm sorry, but I just see no reason you should not get a full attack. It would be a total wasted feat if it didn't, oh I mean 3 wasted feats in the chain would be wasted... :smallmad:

Edit: Dausuul, you're right. I guess I read that section too quickly. :smalleek:

[Matthew]

Indeed. The important clause in that Feat is 'When using the Attack Action', rather than 'When using any/an Attack Action' or 'When using the Full Attack Action'. Spring Attack should work in combination with Two Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows, but it does not by the RAW (and did not even under (A)D&D 2.x Player's Option: Combat and Tactics, where similar circumstances restricted a Character from making Off Hand Attacks when moving more than one square).

[Edit] Oop, Ninja'd

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Yeah, Spring Attack really wasn't built for fighter-types. The feat chain sort of negates it. Dodge is mediocre, Mobility is rather weak, and Spring Attack requires either a very particular instance to use it or a build designed with it in mind (there's ways to abuse it, but you need to prepare to abuse it from character creation). You're better off not taking it unless the last rings true.

[KoDT69]

Heh I know a few of my players will be disappointed with this revelation on my part. I'll be a nice DM and allow them to swap out all 3 feats for useful ones. I have 2 PC's right now with Spring Attack. :smallyuk:

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

A few more notes on spring attack; it's a poor offensive strategy (since it requires you to forego iterative attacks) but a decent defensive move.

Being far away is good for a fragile rogue, for instance, and giving up iteratives hurts a precision-based, moderate BAB character less for a good many levels.

In addition, since hiding after a melee attack is part of a move action, a character with Hide in Plain Sight can move in, attack, and move away again, invisibly, making them nigh-impossible to hit provided their hide is sufficiently high.

My current character is built around a variant of that same concept, utilizing the considerably more flexibile Flyby Attack, which allows any standard action (instead of just the attack action), allowing combination with many martial maneuvers.

[PlatinumJester]

Blood Wind (PHBII or Spell Compendium dunno which) allows the monks fists to turn into ranged attacks so you could just stand still without having to move at all.

[greenknight]

Blood Wind (PHBII or Spell Compendium dunno which) allows the monks fists to turn into ranged attacks so you could just stand still without having to move at all.

It's from Spell Compendium. It does have a number of disadvantages though:

* It's a spell only available to Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards (three classes which generally don't make good use of natural attacks or unarmed strikes). The good news is that it's a swift spell and it has a Close range, so it can reasonably be cast to buff others.

* While it is only a 1st level spell, it's duration is only 1 round.

* The range it gives is only 20', and doesn't provide a flanking bonus. A large creature with a reach weapon usually has that range in melee.

All up, the spellcaster's probably much better off not preparing or casting that spell, IMO.

[Zherog]

Heh I know a few of my players will be disappointed with this revelation on my part. I'll be a nice DM and allow them to swap out all 3 feats for useful ones. I have 2 PC's right now with Spring Attack. :smallyuk:

So here's a question for ya... Have you had problems playing with the wrong interpretation? That is, has it been problematic for your group to allow a full attack during a Spring Attack?

If not, then point out to your group that you're using a house rule, and keep it as is. If things work OK for your group, there's no need to switch mid-campaign to the "right" way of using the feat.

[KoDT69]

Due to the fact that I keep the PC power level in check, it has not caused any problems. No it's not always a useful option even with that as a houserule. I guess there's no harm in leaving it. :smallsmile: The main thing it has done is to help keep the weaker characters alive longer, which is a good thing. The party cleric is C-N worshipping Chaos and Madness (Ralishaz from 2nd Edition Greyhawk, and yes I allowed it :smalleek:) so less need for healing is often their only saving grace, depending on the cleric's mood. :smallyuk:

[Person_Man]

Flurry of Blows can only be used as part of a Full Attack action, which is a full round action. Therefore it cannot be used as a standard action. Nor can it be used as part of a Charge, unless you have the Pounce ability. Flurry is a trap. New players look at it and think, "WOW, look at all these attacks!" But then you realize that Monks lack full BAB, that all of his attacks count as one handed, that you can't use a reach weapon, and that you can't use Flurry very well with most of the offensive combos that give you real damage.

Spring Attack allows you to Move, make a Standard action attack, and then continue your Move action. It cannot be used to make a Charge, which limits your movement speed, and it prevents you from using it as part of a charge combo. It cannot be used with Flurry. And without a heavy feat investment, it basically only allows 1 attack.

If you don't believe me, just go to the WotC website and read the FAQ.

This is actually a very common problem in D&D, and always has been. There are many abilities, such as Flurry, Eldritch Blast, Steal Spell, Auras, Staredown, etc., that seem potent when they are written, but really aren't. It's even more common with feats, such as Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Prof., Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave, Skill anything, etc.

[Zherog]

If it works for your group, KoDT, I'd just leave it as is. By all means, point out to them that you've been interpreting the rule incorrectly and tell them how it's really supposed to work. But then let it stay as is, because it works for you and there's no need to piss off players and make them re-pick feats and all that.

[Matthew]

Zherog, we really need to know what Levels are under discussion here before saying to leave it as is. At levels 1-5 it's probably no big deal to allow this sort of thing, but at Levels 6-20 the situation is a bit different. We're talking about potentially allowing a Character to move anywhere from 15' up to 60'+ (depending on Feats) and make a Full Attack. By all means allow one Iteration of attacks, but two, three or four? isn't that a bit much? Also, how does this affect Speed Weapons and Monsters and such.

Person Man, why does Flurry of Blows have to be One Handed? Can't Monks use the Staff Two Handed as part of a Flurry? ([Edit] Oh wait, I see where I am misreading you)

[Zherog]

Zherog, we really need to know what Levels are under discussion here before saying to leave it as is. At levels 1-5 it's probably no big deal to allow this sort of thing, but at Levels 6-20 the situation is a bit different. We're talking about potentially allowing a Character to move anywhere from 15' up to 60'+ (depending on Feats) and make a Full Attack. By all means allow one Iteration of attacks, but two, three or four? isn't that a bit much? Also, how does this affect Speed Weapons and Monsters and such.

See, I agree with you - sort of.

My point is that KoDT should make it clear to his group that they've been interpreting the rule incorrectly and he should explain to them how the rule works as written. If they've not had problems with it up until this point, they should continue playing as they have. However, as with any house rule, the GM always has the right to later say, "Hey, you know what? This house rule really isn't working out. I'm going to change it back. Anybody who has built their character to rely on this mechanic can go ahead and swap out those feats."

[Droodle]

You could also introduce Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz (I think that's what the other one's called). Those feats add to the iterative attacks you can make while springing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Spring Attack is mostly only good for melee sneak attack rogues to jump in, get their sneak attack, then jump out of combat reach (and provoking AoO from the fighter who was so kind enough to be able to flank for the rogue if the critter chases the rogue rather than staying toe to toe with the fighter) and repeating on subsequent turns.

With a monk, I'd much perfer dipping a level or three in Psionic Fist and grabbing Psionic Lion's Charge and just charge the bastard and get your full flurry. Or dipping a few levels of Warmind to do the same. In fact, a 5 level dip in War Mind would emulate the flying fists of fury with the Sweeping Strike ability, then use a Monk's Belt to make up for the lost Monk levels. Even better, this would increase your BAB to be able to get that last iterative attack and increase your accuracy overall. The only things you're really sacrificing are the Ki Strike: Adamantine and the Empty Body abilities. DR 10/Magic is pointless by the time you get it, as everything is swinging magic.

[Matthew]

My point is that KoDT should make it clear to his group that they've been interpreting the rule incorrectly and he should explain to them how the rule works as written. If they've not had problems with it up until this point, they should continue playing as they have. However, as with any house rule, the GM always has the right to later say, "Hey, you know what? This house rule really isn't working out. I'm going to change it back. Anybody who has built their character to rely on this mechanic can go ahead and swap out those feats."

Absolutely, but if until now KoDT's group has been playing at Levels 1-5, they ought to consider what this rule might mean for the future beforehand.

Bounding Assault (BAB 12) and Rapid Blitz (BAB 18) are good cases in point, as they would be totally without point, much like Two Weapon Pounce (BAB 6), though that last is a slightly different case.

[Roderick_BR]

It was useful in 3.0, when a monk could get a Haste effect, and gain a partial action, and use it to move, having a full attack free to pummel an enemy along the way.
1) Starting 45ft away.
2) Using 1 partial action to move close.
3) Using 1 full round action to flurry him to no end (I have a friend that could attack 14 times!)
4) Use the rest of you move to stop 45 feet away.
(Insert ???, Profit! joke here)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Absolutely, but if until now KoDT's group has been playing at Levels 1-5, they ought to consider what this rule might mean for the future beforehand.

Bounding Assault (BAB 12) and Rapid Blitz (BAB 18) are good cases in point, as they would be totally without point, much like Two Weapon Pounce (BAB 6), though that last is a slightly different case.

Only with a BAB requirement of 18, monks and rogues, who are the ones who get the most out of it, can't ever get it.

[Skjaldbakka]

The monk debate is currently raging here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165) I have yet to be convinced that it is weak or underpowered (albeit it is underskilled).