high con without taking a hit to cha(too much of a hit )

[Monk of love]

I I know the class build already but the stats I'm just stumped on I'm trying to pump con >str and still have a charisma bonus left over for dc's

[Draconium]

Well, Dragonborn is a LA +0 template that gives you +2 Con, -2 Sex on top of the base race's stats. You could place it on another race that has a Con bonus, such as Warforged, and get at least +4 or more Con at LA 0. Pumping up your Con to 18 with that gets you a 22 right off the bat. And that's without even getting into really cheesy territory...

[Necroticplague]

Feral Mineralized Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk.
+6 STR -4 DEX +14 CON -8 INT -6 CHA for LA+2.

[Draconium]

Feral Mineralized Warrior Dragonborn Mongrelfolk.
+6 STR -4 DEX +14 CON -8 INT -6 CHA for LA+2.

See, now this is the kind of thing you probably were looking for. :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

Realized there was a better way to do this, though it gives up some special abilities (like natural armor and fast healing). On the bright side, picks up fear immunity

Mineralized Warrior Lolth-touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk.
+8 STR,-2 dex +18 CON, -4 INT, -2 WIS, -6 CHA.


EDIT: I think I can do better by replacing Mineralized Warrior for Half-minotaur, give me a couple minutes to run the numbers.

EDIT EDIT: yep, I can.
Half-minotaur Lolth-touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk
+18 STR, -4 DEX, +20 CON, -4 INT, +2 WIS, -4 CHA.

[Doc_Maynot]

Alternatively if 3.0 materials are on the table and you are willing to be Good, you can go VoP, take all the dragon bloodlines, and then use those feats to enter Forsaker (which asks you to give up magic items anyways), and to put Supernatural Transformation on all of your DFA SLAs. It'll net you about +23 Effective levels to your Breath Weapon and to the Forsaker feature that grants you a +1 bonus to any ability score per Forsaker Level. Mix with the bloodline bonuses and the VoP Bonuses and without Race you have about +50 Con with only one Forsaker Level at level 20. Your sheer amount of feats and (Sla)s turned (Su)s will give you most of what items would have given you.

[gadren]

Well, Dragonborn is a LA +0 template that gives you +2 Con, -2 Sex on top of the base race's stats. You could place it on another race that has a Con bonus, such as Warforged, and get at least +4 or more Con at LA 0. Pumping up your Con to 18 with that gets you a 22 right off the bat. And that's without even getting into really cheesy territory...

So a Dragonborn is still a virgin until it has had sex at least three times?

[Troacctid]

Alternatively if 3.0 materials are on the table and you are willing to be Good, you can go VoP, take all the dragon bloodlines, and then use those feats to enter Forsaker (which asks you to give up magic items anyways), and to put Supernatural Transformation on all of your DFA SLAs. It'll net you about +23 Effective levels to your Breath Weapon and to the Forsaker feature that grants you a +1 bonus to any ability score per Forsaker Level. Mix with the bloodline bonuses and the VoP Bonuses and without Race you have about +50 Con with only one Forsaker Level at level 20. Your sheer amount of feats and (Sla)s turned (Su)s will give you most of what items would have given you.

You can only take Supernatural Transformation for an innate SLA. This is generally taken to exclude those granted by your class.

[Metahuman1]

Realized there was a better way to do this, though it gives up some special abilities (like natural armor and fast healing). On the bright side, picks up fear immunity

Mineralized Warrior Lolth-touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk.
+8 STR,-2 dex +18 CON, -4 INT, -2 WIS, -6 CHA.


EDIT: I think I can do better by replacing Mineralized Warrior for Half-minotaur, give me a couple minutes to run the numbers.

EDIT EDIT: yep, I can.
Half-minotaur Lolth-touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk
+18 STR, -4 DEX, +20 CON, -4 INT, +2 WIS, -4 CHA.

Addendum's: There Is a dragon-mag Ice Dweller race variant that can be applied as an enviornmental variant. -2 Cha but +2 Con.

Also, a reading of water Orc says it get's +2 Con out of nowhere. If were feeling cheesy, it can be extrapolated that Water element variant races can get a +2 con out of nowhere. That could be up to a +4 con on top of the above if applied in conjunction with one another.

[xyianth]

dragonborn half-minotaur lolth touched arctic lesser ooze paragenasi is strictly better than the mongrelfolk option:

lesser ooze paragenasi: +4 con -2 cha
arctic: +2 con -2 cha
lolth touched: +6 str +6 con
half-minotaur: +4 str +2 con - 2 int
size increase: +8 str +4 con -2 dex
dragonborn: +2 con -2 dex
total: +18 str -4 dex +20 con -2 int +0 wis -4 cha (LA +2)

If you can live with +18 con instead, you can also add the primordial giant option: dragonborn primordial giant half-minotaur lolth touched arctic lesser ooze paragenasi
this changes stats to: +14 str -4 dex +18 con +2 int +0 wis +0 cha (LA +2)
This is better if you want to use invocations that rely on saves.

If you can afford additional LA, you can add mineral warrior for +2 str +4 con -2 int -2 wis -2 cha and all of its special qualities. (add it after dragonborn)
This way you can still buy off all of your LA and start with as much as +24 con.

[ShurikVch]

Dragonborn doesn't works with Lolth-Touched
Dragonborn of Bahamut:
Prerequisites: In order to be accepted as a suitable candidate, the supplicant must be non-evil and have an Intelligence score of at least 3.
As an individual dedicates her life to Bahamut’s cause and becomes a dragonborn, she is committing herself to fighting against Tiamat’s spawn. She must do this to the best of her ability. Reasonable breaks from this activity for gaining allies, recuperating from battle, and gathering resources are permitted, but any form of evil behavior is not.
The Platinum Dragon does not tolerate wicked deeds on the part of his children. A single instance might be overlooked if the dragonborn immediately makes good through an atonement spell. Indulging unrepentantly in iniquity, committing repeated forbidden acts, or converting to an evil philosophy provokes Bahamut to anger and action.
“Lolth-touched” is an acquired template that can be added to any nongood, nonlawful, corporeal living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
...
Alignment: The creature’s alignment changes to chaotic evil.

[xyianth]

Dragonborn doesn't works with Lolth-Touched
Dragonborn of Bahamut:

Refluff it to a good god then. Or, even better, use Moradin-Forged from this homebrew (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11463.0).

I never understood why Lolth was the only god to enhance creatures anyway.

Worst case scenario, drop its measly +2 con -2 dex and instead keep ALL of the special qualities from your other templates. Blasting DFAs want to be evil anyway because tiamat's breath>>>>>>bahamut's breath.

[Necroticplague]

Dragonborn doesn't works with Lolth-Touched
Dragonborn of Bahamut:
Seems like it's a distinct possibility to be a Neutral Dragonborn, get Lolth-touched, then Atone the CE alignment away.

[Rubik]

-2 SexShouldn't that be +2, with all the half-dragons out there?


You can only take Supernatural Transformation for an innate SLA. This is generally taken to exclude those granted by your class.It does include psionics, though, as they're explicitly defined as innate, class-based or no.

[ShurikVch]

It does include psionics, though, as they're explicitly defined as innate, class-based or no.Since when psionics is SLA? :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

Since when psionics is SLA? :smallconfused:They are Psi-Like, which can be used with SLA options, such as the Spell-Like Metamagic feats -- Quicken SLA, etc. If your DM says they don't count as spell-likes for other purposes, the Magic Mantle will force compliance between them.

[ShurikVch]

They are Psi-Like, which can be used with SLA options, such as the Spell-Like Metamagic feats -- Quicken SLA, etc. If your DM says they don't count as spell-likes for other purposes, the Magic Mantle will force compliance between them.Which class gives you PLA?

[Troacctid]

Since when psionics is SLA? :smallconfused:

Per the Monster Manual V definition, which I believe is the most recent (correct me if I'm wrong):


Psionics (Sp): These are spell-like abilities that a creature generates with the power of its mind. Psionic abilities are usually usable at will.

[Rubik]

Which class gives you PLA?All of the manifesting ones. I believe the exact quote for that is, "the manifestation of psionic powers is a psi-like ability."

[ShurikVch]

Per the Monster Manual V definition, which I believe is the most recent (correct me if I'm wrong):It's correct, but if you check actual statblocks, you will see - Psionics (Sp) implemented just and only to the Psi-Like Abilities; neither in the EPH, no in the CPsi no such text; actual manifesters instead have "Psionic powers"

All of the manifesting ones. I believe the exact quote for that is, "the manifestation of psionic powers is a psi-like ability."It's text from the Psi-Like Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psiLikeAbilities):
The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

[Rubik]

It's text from the Psi-Like Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psiLikeAbilities):The quote is close enough for government work.

Of course, so is "durrrrrrr..."

[Curmudgeon]

lesser ooze paragenasi: +4 con -2 cha
arctic: +2 con -2 cha
Did you fail to note that "Arctic" is from the Dragon # 306 article "Racial Variants: Templates for PC Races"? Your combo is illegal.

[Rubik]

Did you fail to note that "Arctic" is from the Dragon # 306 article "Racial Variants: Templates for PC Races"? Your combo is illegal.Any player character using the templates are legal, because they are automatically of a player character race by definition.

So no.

Only NPCs are disallowed by that logic.

[Curmudgeon]

Any player character using the templates are legal, because they are automatically of a player character race by definition.
I cited the article. Your response indicates that you didn't read that article. For your laziness ease of reference, I'll provide the relevant quote from that article.
The following racial variants can be used to create new subraces based on any of the standard races in the Player's Handbook.

[Rubik]

I cited the article. Your response indicates that you didn't read that article. For your laziness ease of reference, I'll provide the relevant quote from that article.And I'm sure you can cite where it says you can't use them elsewhere, right?

[torrasque666]

And I'm sure you can cite where it says you can't use them elsewhere, right?
Exceptions based rules system remember? Doesn't have to. If it says "You can do this with X from Y" it does not also mean "You can do this with X from Z"

[xyianth]

So, your argument is that when it says you can use those to create subraces, it should be read as can only? Can you not create subraces of races identified elsewhere?

The PHB itself states "Choose your class and race at the same time, because some races are better suited to certain classes. The classes, detailed in Chapter 3, are barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, and wizard." The books that present new classes never explicitly state that you can choose them instead. Does that make all non-PHB classes illegal?

Edit - These are honest questions; I'm not trying to refute, just understand.

[torrasque666]

So, your argument is that when it says you can use those to create subraces, it should be read as can only? Can you not create subraces of races identified elsewhere?

The PHB itself states "Choose your class and race at the same time, because some races are better suited to certain classes. The classes, detailed in Chapter 3, are barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, and wizard." The books that present new classes never explicitly state that you can choose them instead. Does that make all non-PHB classes illegal?

Edit - These are honest questions; I'm not trying to refute, just understand.
If it specifically calls out The Player's Handbook, which it does, then it can only be used with The Player's Handbook. Other Non-PHB Base classes get around it by saying something like this:

This chapter presents three new standard character classes: the warlock, the warmage, and the wu jen. Unlike a prestige class, a new standard character class is designed for use from a character’s first class level.

This chapter presents a new standard class, the dragonfire adept, who channels draconic powers in a manner similar to the warlock (from Complete Arcane).
Pretty much, since any of the books that present new classes state that they are new classes, it is an augment to the classes mentioned in the PHB/DMG(for prestige classes). They add to the rule listed in the PHB about standard classes. For the races in the issue in question to be used elsewhere, there would need to be an update to modify the rule it states, especially given that its a 3.0 issue of the magazine. Given that it's 3.0 and lacks a later update, its up to each DM to adjudicate how it will interact with 3.5

[Curmudgeon]

So, your argument is that when it says you can use those to create subraces, it should be read as can only? Can you not create subraces of races identified elsewhere?
Yes, that's correct. It says where you can use those templates. You can't use a racial template for a magic weapon, for instance.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I think I will toss mine into the ring. This is the highest Con (+2LA or less) I could find without taking a hit to Str or Cha, as requested by the OP.

Lolth-Touched Water Mephling +6 ST, +8CN, -2IN.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only offering so far that meets the OP's criteria.

[xyianth]

So if a race is presented as a new standard race it would be ok, but otherwise no? Not all new classes use that wording, I checked Complete Adventurer and it only calls them new character classes.

Personally, I am of the opinion that common sense dictates that new classes are added into the set of character options just like new races are. If a rule says you can use a template to create a subrace of races in the PHB and another rule says you can use a race as a character, then you should be able to create a subrace of that new race just as easily. Obviously, this is subject to DM approval but so is literally everything else.

[Rubik]

What Polymorph form has the highest Con? Use a Polymorph Any Object/Mind Switch or PAO/possession trick to transfer yourself to a new body of the chosen type, adding on all the additional Con boosters you can.

[xyianth]

I think I will toss mine into the ring. This is the highest Con (+2LA or less) I could find without taking a hit to Str or Cha, as requested by the OP.

Lolth-Touched Water Mephling +6 ST, +8CN, -2IN.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only offering so far that meets the OP's criteria.

Well, removing arctic (since some believe it is PHB only) and dragonborn (alignment reasons) you can still go primordial giant half-minotaur lolth-touched lesser ooze paragenasi:

lesser ooze paragenasi: +4 con -2 cha
lolth touched: +6 str +6 con
half-minotaur: +4 str +2 con - 2 int
size increase: +8 str +4 con -2 dex
primordial giant: -4 str -2 con +4 int +4 cha
total: +14 str -2 dex +14 con +2 int +0 wis +2 cha (LA +2)

[Curmudgeon]

So if a race is presented as a new standard race it would be ok, but otherwise no?
It still wouldn't be OK for the Arctic template unless it was incorporated into the Player's Handbook via errata.


Well, removing arctic (since some believe it is PHB only) and dragonborn (alignment reasons) you can still go primordial giant half-minotaur lolth-touched lesser ooze paragenasi
How are you going to add Primordial Giant without Giant type?

[Monk of love]

Wow! I was busy today and I came back to all the replies! I will be reading through it all now !

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Yep, Half-Minotaur is good cheese. It doesn't change type though.

[Chronos]

Can't you add both Half-Giant and Half-Minotaur at once, for the same LA?

[Curmudgeon]

Can't you add both Half-Giant and Half-Minotaur at once, for the same LA?
What do you mean? Half-Giant is a race with +1 LA. Half-Minotaur is a template which adds +1 LA if the size changes, which it necessarily does for a Half-Giant (Medium size). The arithmetic of 1 + 1 = 2 is pretty straightforward; you can't get around that.

[Necroticplague]

He's probably thinking of Half-Ogre, which is LA 0 if applied to a Large creature, IIRC.

[Xervous]

Shouldn't that be +2, with all the half-dragons out there?


Dragonborn are the children of Bahamut, and he doesn't want any grandkids so Dragonborn aren't adding any dragonblood to the (already polluted) environment.

Other dragons however, with means and opportunity aplenty... well you see the results of their motives.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

The Half-Ogre template is indeed +0LA for Large creatures, but it is also -2CH and does not change creature type.

As far as I know, only Half-Troll/Scrag and Incarnate Construct change type to Giant. Neither of them would apply here. Half-Troll is +4LA and -x CH, and Incarnate only works on constructs.