[PF] Dragons in AMF. Unfair?

[Frosty]

I need some advice and some rules knowledge. This is going to be a tough fight.

1) does DR/Magic function in an AMF? Is DR (su) or (ex)?

2). If a character is outside of an AMF, uses Smite Good, and then fires an arrow into the AMF (that's where the dragon is), does her attack and damage rolls benefit from the Smite?

3). If we cast Force Cage to trap a dragon (bars version, not solid walls), will an AMF negate the Force Cage?

Ok, so our party is going to be invading the lair of an Ancient copper dragon (CR 17) in order to kill him. Copper dragons are known tricksters and I bet have all sorts of devious traps. But even if we get past those, I'm worried at our level 14 butts are gonna deal with his dragon.

There is one tactic which, to paraphrase another dragon, turns the fight into monkeys without magic vs Still A Dragon. What's to stop the dragon from hovering out of reach of the party, cast AMF, and then just full-attacking the PCs with impunity?

PCs can't fly without magic. We can't Enlarge ourselves to get more reach without magic. Any archery we do won't get any benefit of magical enhancements (and probably smite won't work either). What is the correct tactics here to win? Only the eidolon and one of the cohorts can fly naturally.

The party composed of:
Tiefling Antipaladin with a minor artifact weapon. Won't turn off in an AMF but it's still just a +3 bastard sword for anything that matters against the dragon.

Kobold Oracle (winter mystery. Honors white dragons and worships Asmodeus). Loves cold spells.

Elf wizard (universalist)

Drow Rogue 5 / Red Mantis Assassin 9.

Summoner. Has a Biped big (Huge evolution), bad melee eidolon. No pounce. Focuses on single big hits with Imprpved Vital Strike. Can fly. Has a +27 to hit when it has functional +4 Gauntlets of Ogre Str.

Half fiend Ogre (cobort. Has fighter levels but unsure exactly how many). Can smite and fly.

Half fiend Medusa (cobort. Has a few fighter levels. Has average archery skills that only really threatens bosses if she Smites and uses her Oathbow.)

[noob]

Dragons are very limited in range since their breath is short ranged and sur
They can not use their breath in an antimagic zone and once they casted this spell they can not cast other spells.
so the only fighting option it have is melee
This gives an occasion for the group to bash it in contact and the casters have some spells that works in AMF(like acid arrow with energy substitution equivalent or wall of steel)("The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result")
Then if the wizard is outside of the AMF he can throw 15 colossal++++ mythril arrows dealing around 315 damage if half his attacks hits(since he have 13+int mod against a 30)
if he have a metamagic quicken rod he can cast another time that telekinesis on the first round killing the dragon.

[Frosty]

Our main tank can't engage it in melee. How does he fly without magic?

As for energy sub, we don't have the feat, but I suppose we can buy lots of meta magic rods? Melds acid arrow is...kind of low damage though. Any other spells that would help?

[Slithery D]

3). If we cast Force Cage to trap a dragon (bars version, not solid walls), will an AMF negate the Force Cage?


I'd say no, but I've always been unclear whether Wall of Force can be cast into an AMF or just survives an AMF being moved over it once it exists. I've always suspected the RAI is the latter, but the RAW seems to be the former.

I might say that although a space 15' dragon technically fits into a 20' cube, its tail sticks past 20' and might be too thick to fit between the bars, so you can't actually catch it. But that's putting more realism in than the rules warrant, your GM probably won't do that.



This gives an occasion for the group to bash it in contact and the casters have some spells that works in AMF(like acid arrow with energy substitution equivalent or wall of steel)("The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result")

That means a wall of steel cast outside the AMF doesn't go "poof" when the AMF later overlaps it. It doesn't mean you can cast it inside the AMF. (With the possible exception of Wall of Force and similar spells mentioned above.)

[Frosty]

Technically you cast the spell and you create the arrow. THEN you throw the arrow at the target. Acid arrow should work just fine, except for
The whole low damage aspect.

[Deophaun]

1) does DR/Magic function in an AMF? Is DR (su) or (ex)?

Not 100% sure, but I think PF made all DR (SU):

Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#appendix-1-special-abilities)

In 3.5, I know material and damage type-based reduction is Ex, while magic and alignment-based is Su.

[Captain Morgan]

To answer your questions,

1) Not sure.
2) I reckon the Smite gets canceled out.
3) Force Cage says it works like Wall of Force, and has similar dispelling resistance. Antimagic Field says it doesn't affect Wall of Force. It should survive the AMF. Pathfinder doesn't work like Order of the Stick, evidently.

Use Wall of Force and Force Cage to limit this things mobility. Stay spread out so he can't catch you all in AMF at once. Getting your casters up above it may be key to victory here. For offense, you are going to want spells that create non-magical effects.

If the fight happens in a cave, use Stone Shape to rocks on his head.

Prepare some choice heavy items using Shrink Item and Treasure Stitching. My reading of Treasure Stitching is that the item won't burst out of the cloth if simply exposed to AMF, but you can potentially have the one caster drop a bunch of cloths and the other nail them with a Greater Dispel Magic as they fall towards the dragon. (I think you might be able to choose for you spell to fail the Dispel Check, but I'm not sure.) Alternatively, wrap the cloth around arrows and fire the arrows over the dragons head and hit them with Dispel there.

Telekinesis's violent thrust function should be able to fire objects and have them maintain momentum just fine. At worst you can fire it from a downward angle so inertia and gravity does what you need it to do. Without cheesing the spell, you can launch a 350 pound object for 14d6 damage with that. You can potentially launch things like gargantuan javelins or siege ballista bolts if you want to cheese the damage.

It's a potentially deadly fight, but if you can keep yourselves from being cornered I think you can win it with the right preparation.

[Eldariel]

First, DR/Magic is Su. PF seems to classify all DR as supernatural (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reduction). In 3.5, Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning DRs were Extraordinary and the rest were Su.

One possible option is definitely getting everyone a mw. composite bow (as that's the extent that's useful for attacking into AMFs) for their buffed strength: you can't benefit of magic on the bow when attacking the Dragon but then, that's one and the same: you probably don't have bows that heavily enhanced either way. Just having everyone carry one, buffing everyone (Haste, Polymorph-types, generic stat buffs, whatever the Oracle has, Invisibility for everyone, etc.) and then having everyone split up and shoot the Dragon inside its AMF can do some decent damage. The dragon can always go after a single target but it's hard for dragon to move and plain kill someone in a single round. All its more frightening abilities are nullified by its own AMF. Frankly, I'd be more worried if you had to fight it without it using one. It does have an AC around 40 of course, so only consider this if you can get enough buffs layered to make hitting that reliably possible. With all your casters you should be able to generate a decent buff stack tho. I'd say +30 is probably enough for your two primary attacks.

And yeah, Walls of Force and similar effects are of course rather useful. It's worth preparing some more direct magic if your prediction doesn't come to fruition and it doesn't use the AMF after all.

[noob]

"The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result"
Here the wall of steel spell is an instantaneous conjuration so its effect (making an wall appear) is not affected by AMF even if you are in it since it explicitly not affect the effect of the spell since it is an instantaneous conjuration.(The level of tortuous reading of raw is above 10000)
I think it is the same for every other instantaneous conjuration.
Then abuse Smokestick for area control: the dragon can not strike you if he does not knows your square.

[Hazrond]

To answer your questions,

1) Not sure.
2) I reckon the Smite gets canceled out.
3) Force Cage says it works like Wall of Force, and has similar dispelling resistance. Antimagic Field says it doesn't affect Wall of Force. It should survive the AMF. Pathfinder doesn't work like Order of the Stick, evidently.

Use Wall of Force and Force Cage to limit this things mobility. Stay spread out so he can't catch you all in AMF at once. Getting your casters up above it may be key to victory here. For offense, you are going to want spells that create non-magical effects.

If the fight happens in a cave, use Stone Shape to rocks on his head.

Prepare some choice heavy items using Shrink Item and Treasure Stitching. My reading of Treasure Stitching is that the item won't burst out of the cloth if simply exposed to AMF, but you can potentially have the one caster drop a bunch of cloths and the other nail them with a Greater Dispel Magic as they fall towards the dragon. (I think you might be able to choose for you spell to fail the Dispel Check, but I'm not sure.) Alternatively, wrap the cloth around arrows and fire the arrows over the dragons head and hit them with Dispel there.

Telekinesis's violent thrust function should be able to fire objects and have them maintain momentum just fine. At worst you can fire it from a downward angle so inertia and gravity does what you need it to do. Without cheesing the spell, you can launch a 350 pound object for 14d6 damage with that. You can potentially launch things like gargantuan javelins or siege ballista bolts if you want to cheese the damage.

It's a potentially deadly fight, but if you can keep yourselves from being cornered I think you can win it with the right preparation.

I would actually say that the attack bonus would stay if the paladin isn't in the field (since magic guidance is usually on the shooter as opposed to an arrow curving in flight) however the damage bonus would probably be cancelled out

[Dusk Raven]

"The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result"
Here the wall of steel spell is an instantaneous conjuration so its effect (making an wall appear) is not affected by AMF even if you are in it since it explicitly not affect the effect of the spell since it is an instantaneous conjuration.
I think it is the same for every other instantaneous conjuration.

Maybe my interpretation of antimagic field is different, but as DM I wouldn't allow you to use magic to create something within an antimagic field. And I don't think you can cast magic of any sort if you're actually in the field, anyway.

Also, while cheesing telekinesis like that is doable, I'm sure, the logistics of it boggle me. Like, how would you even carry any great number of gigantic arrows around? Or get them into position? If I'm reading the "violent thrust" option right, the objects have to be within 10 feet of the target, which doesn't seem practical with a dragon and an antimagic field in close proximity. Of course, what I'd do is just move them above the target and drop them, which seems fair game.

[Frosty]

My GM dislikes cheese. No shrink item shenanigans will be allowed I'm pretty sure.

Now, I believe his fight will likely take place either in open space, or inside a large building. Not sure if the transmute spells will help but it's not a bad idea.

Force caging someone allows a save right? We will need to cross our fun gets and pray that the dragon fails...

[Ravens_cry]

My GM dislikes cheese. No shrink item shenanigans will be allowed I'm pretty sure.

Now, I believe his fight will likely take place either in open space, or inside a large building. Not sure if the transmute spells will help but it's not a bad idea.

Force caging someone allows a save right? We will need to cross our fun gets and pray that the dragon fails...

Yeah, a Reflex save, which is typically a Dragon's worst save, and NO spell resistance.

[Frosty]

If the dragon already has an AMF up (our GM rules that the AMF would extend 10ft from his entire body not just from a point in space), can we even cast force Cage into that area?

[Captain Morgan]

Telekinesis can get pretty cheesy, but I wouldn't say Shrink Items are. The rules for falling objects actually cap damage at pretty low levels. A colossal object only does 10d6 damage, 20d6 if it calls more than 150 feet. And that's assume the creature fails the reflex save for half. To make it especially devastating you would need a whole bunch of them to go off at once.

There's also a material cost for the spell, and a DM could reasonably rule it is only especially effective on targets too large to dodge.

Obviously a DM could veto it, but if they really want you fight in those conditions they are basically encouraging these shenanigans out of necessity.

[Frosty]

Hmm, I just remembered that with 15ft reach, the eidolon can fly close bt outside of AMF range, vital strike, and then Flyby attack out. Could be a good way to trade with the dragon.

So, can I cast Cage on dragon after AMF? Or only before the AMF is up?

[noob]

It is never said that the creation of the wall of force is immune to antimagic zone.



A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

[torrasque666]

It is never said that the creation of the wall of force is immune to antimagic zone.

Own quote there boyo


A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
It states that it is unaffected by most spells, and then gives the explicit exceptions to that rule (disintegrate, rod of cancellation, sphere of annihilation, disjunction)

[noob]

"The wall"
Not the spell.
It depends on the interpretation and I believe that it can be interpreted both ways since being immune to antimagic might say that you can appear even when there is one.

[Eldariel]

Also, while cheesing telekinesis like that is doable, I'm sure, the logistics of it boggle me. Like, how would you even carry any great number of gigantic arrows around? Or get them into position? If I'm reading the "violent thrust" option right, the objects have to be within 10 feet of the target, which doesn't seem practical with a dragon and an antimagic field in close proximity. Of course, what I'd do is just move them above the target and drop them, which seems fair game.

Magic. More precisely, e.g. Bag of Holding can be turned inside out (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bag-of-holding) and bam, a ton of whatever-the-hell-you-want-in-a-pile. Teleport Object, Shrink Item and various other items/spells can be used for this purpose too but given any given party will probably have a bunch of Bags of Holding for carrying items anyways, they're the most idiot-proof option. Just make sure to pack it in a way that the arrows don't puncture it; but just placing a simple object in front of them or packing the arrows/bolts/whatever in the back of the Bag should do that. I used it in a level 11 PvP Arena to a fairly good effect (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265567-PvP-Level-11-Bracket/page2&p=14461626#post14461626); the Diviner I ran was able to achieve an attack run of 5 +21 (if desired) attacks for 6d6+4 each fairly easily. The character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=490438), if interested in the particular mechanics but it's nothing very complex. And a part was achieved by using Greater Magic Weapon, which wouldn't work here of course but being level 14 and having a full party's worth of resources would go a fair way towards enhancing the attack run. Telekinesis does target the enemy's actual AC though so you'll have to be prepared to overcome AC 39. And giant swords/arrows/whatever target the dragon's HP bar, which is fairly bulky (in spite of it being way less impressive than in 3.5).

EDIT: Oh yeah, one thing I planned on using was use Summon Monster VI to summon Shadow Demons that can use CL 11 Telekinesis inherently at will. You can get 1d3 from Summon Monster VII and Empower that for further one extra; that's a lot of attacks, albeit at a poor attack bonus. Ultimately it's probably not worth it vs. a Dragon with its AC of 39; they'd only be hitting on 20. Something to think about, anyways.

EDIT#2: Violent Thrust (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/telekinesis) says "You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects..." So the target distance is 10'/level, at least 140' here, as long as the thrown objects are clumped together.

[Aleolus]

Telekinesis can get pretty cheesy, but I wouldn't say Shrink Items are. The rules for falling objects actually cap damage at pretty low levels. A colossal object only does 10d6 damage, 20d6 if it calls more than 150 feet. And that's assume the creature fails the reflex save for half. To make it especially devastating you would need a whole bunch of them to go off at once.

There's also a material cost for the spell, and a DM could reasonably rule it is only especially effective on targets too large to dodge.

Obviously a DM could veto it, but if they really want you fight in those conditions they are basically encouraging these shenanigans out of necessity.

? I thought the damage when getting hit by a falling object was 1d6 per 10 feet fallen per 100 pounds of weight? So a 180lb rock that drops 50 feet would deal 5d6 damage, while a 370lb one would deal 15d6 at the same distance

[Frosty]

I can shrink lots of rocks down to like pebble size, and just loose like 200 rocks at the dragon and force a reflex save I guess? Once the pebbles hit the AMF they return to being rocks.

[Captain Morgan]

? I thought the damage when getting hit by a falling object was 1d6 per 10 feet fallen per 100 pounds of weight? So a 180lb rock that drops 50 feet would deal 5d6 damage, while a 370lb one would deal 15d6 at the same distance

Not according to the Pathfinder rules. That sort of sounds like something they may have had in 3.5 and then streamlined.

Falling

Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.

If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.

Falls onto yielding surfaces (soft ground, mud) also convert the first 1d6 of damage to nonlethal damage. This reduction is cumulative with reduced damage due to deliberate jumps and the Acrobatics skill.

A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.

Falling into Water: Falls into water are handled somewhat differently. If the water is at least 10 feet deep, the first 20 feet of falling do no damage. The next 20 feet do nonlethal damage (1d3 per 10-foot increment). Beyond that, falling damage is lethal damage (1d6 per additional 10-foot increment).

Characters who deliberately dive into water take no damage on a successful DC 15 Swim check or DC 15 Acrobatics check, so long as the water is at least 10 feet deep for every 30 feet fallen. The DC of the check, however, increases by 5 for every 50 feet of the dive.

Falling Objects

Table: Damage from Falling Objects

Object Size Damage
Small 2d6
Medium 3d6
Large 4d6
Huge 6d6
Gargantuan 8d6
Colossal 10d6
Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.

Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.


I can shrink lots of rocks down to like pebble size, and just loose like 200 rocks at the dragon and force a reflex save I guess? Once the pebbles hit the AMF they return to being rocks.

That would be an option, yes. By my reading that should work, where as Treasure Stitching might just maintain it's cloth form since the effect is suppressed and not dispelled.

Treasure stitching might allow for more creativity if you dispel it yourself though, because it's as much material as you can fit on a 10 foot square of cloth. Try alchemical items, for example. Dump a bunch of alchemist fire on it's head. Or try packing alchemist fire, kerosene, and ball bearings into barrels of flour, and drop explosive shrapnel on it's head.

[bekeleven]

That means a wall of steel cast outside the AMF doesn't go "poof" when the AMF later overlaps it. It doesn't mean you can cast it inside the AMF. (With the possible exception of Wall of Force and similar spells mentioned above.)
I don't want to rehash the 4-page debate I had on this, so I'll just pop in and say that RAW can interpreted ambiguously and move on.

[Frosty]

I wonder if readying Greater Dispel Magics would be a good use of the caster actions...

[Spore]

I wonder if readying Greater Dispel Magics would be a good use of the caster actions...

If the Oracle has it, that would be nice since it can keep up with the spell slots of a dragon. The wizard can do it, too but he simply lacks the endurance. If the Oracle however has (Greater) Spell Penetration, one lucky shot using Icy Prison should allow you to coup de grace (DC 29 Strength check vs. a +11 Strength bonus).

Which brings me to ask: Which spells does the oracle know?

[P.F.]

The passage which implies that you cannot cast spells in or into an antimagic field is


The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells

The passage which implies that you might be able to use a wall of iron anyway is


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result)

In my personal reading I would conjure that a wall of iron cast outside the AMF and pushed over into it, or cast prior to the AMF intersecting it, is unaffected; however, a spellcaster standing in the AMF could not cast wall of iron, nor could he from a remote location create a new wall of iron in an existing AMF. This is not the only valid interpretation, however.

The passage which implies that one could use a forcecage in an antimagic field is


Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field.

At my table this has always been read to mean that existing walls of force, etc are unaffected, but again, this is not the only valid interpretation of the rules.

As you have already gotten clarification on the passage reading


Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

and especially because that ruling effectively increases the radius of the spell by 10' or more, your best bet would be to ask for additional clarifications. This is a rules gray-area already; trying to spring a surprise tactic on your GM may end with hurt feelings and dead characters.

[Seward]

Dragon in an antimagic field is a classic, going back to 1st edition D&D.

It's part of the universe. Don't mess with a dragon that has level 6 spellcasting or a good UMD score and treasure including high level scrolls.

[Yogibear41]

Dragons can't breath weapon or cast spells in an anti-magic field.

Dr/magic is SU as well as DR/Silver, Cold Iron, Epic, or any Alignment Based DR

DR/Adamantine, Slashing, Piercing, or Bludgeoning is EX. As well as DR/-

[Frosty]

If the Oracle has it, that would be nice since it can keep up with the spell slots of a dragon. The wizard can do it, too but he simply lacks the endurance. If the Oracle however has (Greater) Spell Penetration, one lucky shot using Icy Prison should allow you to coup de grace (DC 29 Strength check vs. a +11 Strength bonus).

Which brings me to ask: Which spells does the oracle know?

Mostly damage spells of the cold variety. Also some against good creatures like Unholy Blight. Very recently picked up Greater Heroism (good to cast on the eidolon). Also Sleet Storm to reduce movement and Vision. Oh and she has Heal. I have no clue what 7th level spell she just chose. I think she also chose form of the dragon via improved Eldritch Heritage